Would you classify selfish behavior as being more chaotic or more evil? In 1st and 2nd edition I seem to recall chaotic individuals being opposed to charm spells, since they override the choice of will. In 3rd edition I have not seen this, is this some hey we want to give players options to do whatever they choose?
I'd say selfishness is rather "evil" and not chaotic.
Why?
I usually follow the approach "good Vs evil" is about the finality/goals, while "law Vs chaos" is about the tools you use to reach your goals.
Someone selfish is someone who acts to satisfy his own person (over others and at their expenses, in the most extreme form).
He could be an organised and tyranic selfish person (LE) or an unstable and moody selfish person (CE).
Bocklin
Agrees that selfishness is evil rather than chaotic. I see the Law / Chaos axis as representing your "philosophy of life" sort of outlook... what makes the cosmos tick and all that. Good / Evil is how you weigh your own interests against the interests of others (in a general sense). The more you're willing to put aside your own wants or desires for the good of others, the more good you are. The less you're willing to do that (selfish), the more evil you are.
I was going to write the exact same explenation, but Bocklin said it for me. So I totally agree with Bocklin's view on this.
Ultradan
Is it possible for a character to be selfish and still be good, in some cases? If a player claims he is being greedy because he plans to use his wealth(magical) to help people, is he hiding his evil nature?
Is it possible for a character to be selfish and still be good, in some cases? If a player claims he is being greedy because he plans to use his wealth(magical) to help people, is he hiding his evil nature?
Yes, I believe it's possible. The character could have good intentions...
He amasses great hoards of treasure in the hopes to, one day, give it all away to a center for endangered umberhulks (he could just have a low wisdom score).
Ultradan
Is it possible for a character to be selfish and still be good, in some cases?
It's certainly harder. If by selfish, you mean greed -- that's evil.
If a player claims he is being greedy because he plans to use his wealth(magical) to help people, is he hiding his evil nature?
Personal greed, followed by a lie meant purely to benefit himself? I'd say the evil indicators are starting to rack up.
I assume he's not a Robin Hood-type. Robin Hood was not selfish -- he had no plan to keep the money for himself or his buddies.
Regards,
Jack
I concur that selfishness is evil, since one of the things detailed about being "Good" in the PHB is altruism, which is opposite of selfishness; also, one could be methodical or impulsive with their selfishness. This is one of the few moral quandry questions that's been easy to answer!
And, hey! Endangered umberhulks is a good cause! Just think of those big eyes... big.... eyes..... (is striken with confusion gaze).
If we're going to apply D&D alignment to real morality (not always easy), I'd say Good represents concern for the welfare of others. Whether the good of the many outweighs the good of the few is a question of Law/Chaos.
Evil is focussed on personal gain -- if necessary, at the expense of others.
Selfishness is evil in every value system.
Of course there are few real-world absolutes. Every normal person is selfish -- 'good' people subordinate that impulse in favor of moral behavior.
For what it's worth.
Jack
And, hey! Endangered umberhulks is a good cause! Just think of those big eyes... big.... eyes..... (is striken with confusion gaze).
LOL :)
I'm gonna weigh in on the other side here, mostly because I can. :-)
Selfishness could be construed as Chaotic. The chaotic viewpoint places personal liberties above "the greater good." Therefore, selfishness could be viewed as the ultimate Chaotic. Of course, I am not saying you could have a selfish Good Chaotic, but a CN character could be played as being neurotically selfish without Evil entering into the question. (He sees himself as "needing" everything he is hoarding, and in his twisted view of the world, his "needs" outweigh the "wants" of the other players.) (I think I just gave myself a great idea for a real pain-in-the-butt type NPC. I gotta go write this down...) *wanders off looking for a pencil...*
The alignment that fits selfishness the best has to be neutral evil. That is what I get out of the alignment aspect of selfishness.
I'm gonna weigh in on the other side here, mostly because I can. :-)
Selfishness could be construed as Chaotic. The chaotic viewpoint places personal liberties above "the greater good." Therefore, selfishness could be viewed as the ultimate Chaotic. Of course, I am not saying you could have a selfish Good Chaotic, but a CN character could be played as being neurotically selfish without Evil entering into the question. (He sees himself as "needing" everything he is hoarding, and in his twisted view of the world, his "needs" outweigh the "wants" of the other players.) (I think I just gave myself a great idea for a real pain-in-the-butt type NPC. I gotta go write this down...) *wanders off looking for a pencil...*
A chaotic person'sviewpoint depends on his secondary alignment.
A CG char would be like Robin Hood. Robbing the selfish tyrant (LE) to give the poor the money and keeping little or none for themselves.A CN char would be a free spirit with a possible slight tendency towards greed.
A CE char would probably horde power and what not to use it to cause himself pleasure or others pain (but usally both)
A chaotic person'sviewpoint depends on his secondary alignment.
A CG char would be like Robin Hood. Robbing the selfish tyrant (LE) to give the poor the money and keeping little or none for themselves.
A CN char would be a free spirit with a possible slight tendency towards greed.
A CE char would probably horde power and what not to use it to cause himself pleasure or others pain (but usally both)
I agree about the Chaotic Good character being like Robin Hood... Breaking the law for the welfare of others. He would take under consideration the feelings of others.
I would suggest that a Chaotic Neutral character would break the law when it suits his purpose, and also just because he can. Although the feelings of others are of little concequence, he refrains from killing because of fear of repercussion (of others or the law). In the end he is nothing more than a schoolyard bully.
A Chaotic Evil character would let nothing get in his way of what he wants. He kills because it brings him pleasure. This, in my opinion, is as mean as it gets.
Ultradan
um... you guys do realize that dwarves (lawful good) are described as among the most avaricious (money grubbing, if you will) races in d&d, right? thus, by your argument, they should actually be lawful evil?
tog
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um... you guys do realize that dwarves (lawful good) are described as among the most avaricious (money grubbing, if you will) races in d&d, right? thus, by your argument, they should actually be lawful evil?
tog
I lean more to agree with The Other Guy... a Lawful Neutral character could very easily be completely selfish. "I am not required to be cheritable or giving by law/dictates of patron deity/whatever, so why should I be? I will hold the balance in accordance with written doctrine and not concern myself with the feeling or wellbeing of others." I think it would be harder to justify prolonged selfish behavior with a LG alignment, but I don't think it's impossible.
Selfishness vs. generosity is a character trait. Even the most chaotic of chaotic evil characters (or lawful of LE characters) could be the very aspect of generosity if it furthered their machinations.
um... you guys do realize that dwarves (lawful good) are described as among the most avaricious (money grubbing, if you will) races in d&d, right? thus, by your argument, they should actually be lawful evil?
tog
This tends to be my opinion, too.
Let's look at a Paladin for a moment...not all PALs, obviously, but this one in particular, we'll call him Biff.
Biff is a Paladin, bent on becoming a Beacon of Righteousness in a World of Shadow. He feels the best way of doing this is to A)destroy Evil, and B)ensure his name is well-known, so Evil will quail before Biff's Very Reputation. To do this, he takes a significant cut of the treasures his party finds and redistributes it to various temples/NPO's, etc., all the while ensuring that they all know Biff the Mighty is responsible for bringing the Evil to heel. He downplays his fellow PCs' roles in the matter (they probably used poison or subterfuge), and basks in the glory. He then uses his reputation to find new quests (with little input from the rest of the party), and the cycle continues.
Biff is Lawful, as he has a set code (don't use poison, kill Evil things, give the treasure away, pose for cover of Righteousness Weekly as often as possible) by which he strictly abides. He's Good, as he supports the cause of Good, doesn't kill innocents, and so forth. He is also rather selfish, as he hogs the glory and keeps a stranglehold on party leadership. So selfishness itself is neither Evil nor Chaotic. It's simply a character trait.
um... you guys do realize that dwarves (lawful good) are described as among the most avaricious (money grubbing, if you will) races in d&d, right? thus, by your argument, they should actually be lawful evil?
tog
This tends to be my opinion, too.
Let's look at a Paladin for a moment...not all PALs, obviously, but this one in particular, we'll call him Biff.
Biff is a Paladin, bent on becoming a Beacon of Righteousness in a World of Shadow. He feels the best way of doing this is to A)destroy Evil, and B)ensure his name is well-known, so Evil will quail before Biff's Very Reputation. To do this, he takes a significant cut of the treasures his party finds and redistributes it to various temples/NPO's, etc., all the while ensuring that they all know Biff the Mighty is responsible for bringing the Evil to heel. He downplays his fellow PCs' roles in the matter (they probably used poison or subterfuge), and basks in the glory. He then uses his reputation to find new quests (with little input from the rest of the party), and the cycle continues.
Biff is Lawful, as he has a set code (don't use poison, kill Evil things, give the treasure away, pose for cover of Righteousness Weekly as often as possible) by which he strictly abides. He's Good, as he supports the cause of Good, doesn't kill innocents, and so forth. He is also rather selfish, as he hogs the glory and keeps a stranglehold on party leadership. So selfishness itself is neither Evil nor Chaotic. It's simply a character trait.
I respectfully disagree. If Biff is doing this purely for the destruction of evil then he is not being selfish as he is not doing these things for "himself". This approach I would say is also dangerous, for if he falls in love with the limelight he is in danger of putting himself above his cause and thus might be in trouble with his respective superiors. Biff might seem selfish to greedy of jealous eyes but if he is all about the goodness there is no selfishness here.
As to dwarves I always attributed their "greed" as a misunderstanding. They are Buisnesslike and have a love of fine metals and craftmanship that "upworlders" can't comprehend. That and they are shrewd (low charisma) but constantly doing buisiness so I would expect them to have a reputaion of no nonsense hagglers. Plus, many of them may be greedy. But (depending on the extent of their greed) this does not make a person a cut-throat murderer. It may be a smear on an otherwise honest and pure soul but , unless good now means perfection, one failing doesn't make them evil.
Biff isn't selfish. He's self-centered and self-important.
Takes this as seriously as you want. Or not :)
Jack
...Selfishness could be construed as Chaotic. The chaotic viewpoint places personal liberties above "the greater good." Therefore, selfishness could be viewed as the ultimate Chaotic...
Then what is evil, if not placing personal gain over the welfare of others? Rhetorical question, of course. I just disagree :)
Regards,
Jack
Then what is evil, if not placing personal gain over the welfare of others?
Debasing or destroying innocent life, whether for fun or profit.
Merely placing one's own personal gain over the welfare of others (i.e., selfishness) is Neutral on the Good-Evil axis.
Really, people...the answer is right there in the rulebook. You just have to read what it says: "People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others."
You can be selfish and still obey the laws and have no wish to hurt anybody, hence a lawful good selfish individual. Or you can be selfish and destroy all who get in your way, hence a chaotic evil individual.
So what has been said is probably true... That selfishness is only a character trait and depending on your alignment, you'll act differently about it.
Ultradan
I respectfully disagree. If Biff is doing this purely for the destruction of evil then he is not being selfish as he is not doing these things for "himself". This approach I would say is also dangerous, for if he falls in love with the limelight he is in danger of putting himself above his cause and thus might be in trouble with his respective superiors. Biff might seem selfish to greedy of jealous eyes but if he is all about the goodness there is no...um... you guys do realize that dwarves (lawful good) are described as among the most avaricious (money grubbing, if you will) races in d&d, right? thus, by your argument, they should actually be lawful evil?
tog
This tends to be my opinion, too.
Let's look at a Paladin for a moment...not all PALs, obviously, but this one in particular, we'll call him Biff.
Biff is a Paladin, bent on becoming a Beacon of Righteousness in a World of Shadow. He feels the best way of doing this is to A)destroy Evil, and B)ensure his name is well-known, so Evil will quail before Biff's Very Reputation. To do this, he takes a significant cut of the treasures his party finds and redistributes it to various temples/NPO's, etc., all the while ensuring that they all know Biff the Mighty is responsible for bringing the Evil to heel. He downplays his fellow PCs' roles in the matter (they probably used poison or subterfuge), and basks in the glory. He then uses his reputation to find new quests (with little input from the rest of the party), and the cycle continues.
Biff is Lawful, as he has a set code (don't use poison, kill Evil things, give the treasure away, pose for cover of Righteousness Weekly as often as possible) by which he strictly abides. He's Good, as he supports the cause of Good, doesn't kill innocents, and so forth. He is also rather selfish, as he hogs the glory and keeps a stranglehold on party leadership. So selfishness itself is neither Evil nor Chaotic. It's simply a character trait.
I agree here. The dwarven god of greed is evil and opposed to the pantheon even if related. Think Loki here. Therefore while some dwarves will take things too far and honor this diety, the majority are not. I would not call a dwarf greedy anymore than I would an art collector.
After reading the post I will weigh in one the neutral hanging on the border. Greed is one of the seven deadly sins.
Merely placing one's own personal gain over the welfare of others (i.e., selfishness) is Neutral on the Good-Evil axis.
Really, people...the answer is right there in the rulebook. You just have to read what it says: "People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others."
With respect, the two paragraphs above don't mean the same thing, though your language implies that they do (and that it should be clear to all).
My interepretation (which is consistent with the quote) is that neutrals make little or no effort to help, but will not willfully hurt. Taking things or keeping things from people is arguably hurting.
Regards,
Jack
Characters of any alignment can be selfish. But being selfish itself is evil. This is because this is one of many many traits that are pooled together to form their alignment.
Two identical alignment clerics. They are good, and agree in every situation what is the right thing to do. Except that one feels he deserves more from the treasury of the chuch, which he can justify partly, but it is also influenced by his greed and self importance. Which cleric sounds more goodly aligned?
Selfishness is an evil trait but that does not mean you have to be evil to posses it. As I said before, to imply that only bad people can do bad things is to say that every good person must be pure and without sin. Not realistic and not the purpose of an alignment indication system.
A neutral character might not make sacrifices for others (evil) but he will not harm them either (good). Being neutral does not mean that their actions are neutral, it just means that they do good and evil in about equal amounts.
All just my humble opinion
I think there have been some very good cases made here for the Selfishness is Evil argument, and I agree with them. A Neutral character might be selfish. He also abhors murder and death. If he abhorred murder and death and gave freely he'd be Good. But he doesn't, so he's Neutral.
Characters are complex. Many people often look to one piece of the stat block to try and define them, but you have to look at it all to get a true image of the person. In a similar vein, I see people try to determine a set of mental capabilities, such as certain forms of abesnt-mindedness, foolishness, far-sightedness, and even retardation, as a single mental ability. That's incorrect. You have to look at the whole range of mental stats to understand how to describe the person's mentality.
The same goes for alignment. You first have to understand the behaviors AND motivations of the NPC or PC, and what each component thereof is, and what various alignments are like on their own (you have to understand what each alignment means before classifying aspects of someone to determine which they are). You can't just look at one thing to determine whether someone is good or evil, but Good and Evil, as the absolutes defined in D&D, are easily ascribable to an individual trait, such as selfishness, which is, as I understand it, clearly an evil trait.
I also believe that many dwarves possess some amount of this ability, but mainly it's a business-oriented demeanor, as Sexi said. I view the sterotype that Dwarves are Greedy as just that- a stereotype, no different from any of the skewed, derogatory ones that exist in reality. People feel competition from dwarven crafters and such, and thus try to demonize them.
I'm not sure I really buy into an argument that Dwarves being greedy is a stereotype akin to a real world one. They're make believe and the truth or falsity of their greed can vary from campaign to campaign.
I guess those that own Races of Stone know more on this topic then myself, at least when it comes to official dwarves. The Monster Manual entry says nothing about greed and talks instead of good work ethic, honor and loyalty.
But lets presume for a moment that our dwarves are greedy, even so I think its possible for them to be Lawful and Good. They are greedy for stuff they have worked themselves to acquire. They dig up the gold they lust after themselves, at significant risk to their health and well being. I'm not sure one can decide thats some how tainted with evil. Anyone here work their behind off in school in order to get a good job? Did you figure your hard work and persiverence tainted you with evil? I'd say not - its not exactly deciding to risk ones life for little material compensation as say a career with Doters Without Borders is, but its hardly evil.
My take is its pretty much a non factor in determining the Dwarves alignment - they lust after stuff they attain by the sweat off their own brow. My feeling would be that honor and loyalty and a willingness to oppose evil are were the Lawful and Good aspects of the classic dwarf come into play. A Dwarf will oppose evil with rugged determination and once you have shown yourself worthy of his trust he's a true friend through good times and especially through bad.
I concur that selfishness is evil, since one of the things detailed about being "Good" in the PHB is altruism, which is opposite of selfishness; also, one could be methodical or impulsive with their selfishness. This is one of the few moral quandry questions that's been easy to answer!
And, hey! Endangered umberhulks is a good cause! Just think of those big eyes... big.... eyes..... (is striken with confusion gaze).
Saern has made a good point here. Look at the entries that are in the PHB and you can find a very good explanation of what the creators were trying to go for.