Location of the White Kingdom?

[Loops!]

Dear Fellow-Gamers, Dungeon-Crew and Wolfgang Baur!

I have trouble locating the Kingdom of the Ghouls.
Is it somewhere far below the Fields of Pesh, near White Plume Mountain and Dragothas Lair? Reading p. 44 and Moretos story on p. 57-58 of DungeonMag #129, one might think so.

Or is the White Kingdom located far away in SW-Greyhawk, below the Hellfurnaces near Ereleih-Cinlu, as Wolfgang Baur states in his Kingdom of the Ghouls - Adventure in DungeonMag #70?

Or did Moreto travel all the way from the Hellfurnaces to White Plume Mountain underground along the River of Blood? That´s a long way to go...

This might seem unimportnant, but I´m blessed with very inquisitive players and I´m thinking about a side-trek adventure, using parts of Wolfgangs original setting, that I like (and recommend) very much.

Thanks for answering. Happy Gaming. Loops!

[Greg A. Vaughan]

If I recall correctly, according to Dungeon #70 the White Kingdom lay beneath the Hellfurnaces not far from the drow city of Erilhei-Cinlu. In fact it seemed like it lay along the north shore of the Sunless Sea whose western tip is introduced in D3 The Vault of the Drow. It's possible it was accessed by the Slerotan Tunnel, but I cannot remember for sure.

[Tessius]

Greg V wrote:

In fact it seemed like it lay along the north shore of the Sunless Sea whose western tip is introduced in D3 The Vault of the Drow.

Just a little off topic, but would that happen to be the Sunless Sea that was used in the 2ed. boxed set "Night Below?"

[JaenChronicler]

Greg V wrote:

If I recall correctly, according to Dungeon #70 the White Kingdom lay beneath the Hellfurnaces not far from the drow city of Erilhei-Cinlu. In fact it seemed like it lay along the north shore of the Sunless Sea whose western tip is introduced in D3 The Vault of the Drow. It's possible it was accessed by the Slerotan Tunnel, but I cannot remember for sure.

i cannot confirm the Slerotan Tunnel connection, but i *can* confirm it's under the Hellfurnaces near Erilhei-Cinlu... i'm reading through it (Dungeon #70) right now.

=peace is for the conquered!=

[Greg A. Vaughan]

Tessius wrote:

Greg V wrote:

In fact it seemed like it lay along the north shore of the Sunless Sea whose western tip is introduced in D3 The Vault of the Drow.

Just a little off topic, but would that happen to be the Sunless Sea that was used in the 2ed. boxed set "Night Below?"

Uh...I hadn't really thought about that. I had forgotten the Underdark sea in Night Below was called the Sunless Sea. I guess it could be the same. My first impression was that it was probably not because I don't recall that box being campaign world specific (I played it in the FR when we ran it long ago), and it seems like the whole sea and all its encounter areas were illustrated without mentioning Erelhei-Cinlu or the Drow Vault. However, once again, I would say that it could probably very easily be placed there. That's a really great idea. I'm going to have to pull out my old box and check it out.

[Tessius]

Greg V wrote:

Uh...I hadn't really thought about that. I had forgotten the Underdark sea in Night Below was called the Sunless Sea. I guess it could be the same. My first impression was that it was probably not because I don't recall that box being campaign world specific (I played it in the FR when we ran it long ago), and it seems like the whole sea and all its encounter areas were illustrated without mentioning Erelhei-Cinlu or the Drow Vault. However, once again, I would say that it could probably very easily be placed there. That's a really great idea. I'm going to have to pull out my old box and check it out.

I'm going off memory here because my copy is in the depths of my closet somewhere. They mention some high level npc's in the intro for when the pc's might go looking for help. Etiene D'Ambreville is one and there's a FR one too but i can't recall if it's Elminster or Khelben. They went with Greyhawk deities names but also provided the alternative names for FR and one other TSR settings' deities. As for the connection to Vault of the Drow, there is no direct mention of drow in the Sunless Sea environs beyond if the dm wanted to add side treks, it said you could create a tunnel to a nearby drow city among other things. One of many reasons I like it though was that it was the set was in the Underdark and there wasn't a single drow in it. Great...all this has got me thinking of trying to convert and my grps only 1/3 into 3FoE. :\

[Wolfgang Baur]

Greg V wrote:

In fact it seemed like it lay along the north shore of the Sunless Sea whose western tip is introduced in D3 The Vault of the Drow.

Tessius wrote:

Just a little off topic, but would that happen to be the Sunless Sea that was used in the 2ed. boxed set "Night Below?"

Greg V wrote:

Uh...I hadn't really thought about that. I had forgotten the Underdark sea in Night Below was called the Sunless Sea. I guess it could be the same.

It was written as under the Hellfurnaces. When I drew the map, I lined up some graph paper with the north shore of the Sunless Sea from D1-D3 and went from there. I think one of the rivers may also connect.

The Night Below box may have taken the Sunless Sea name, but it was originally GH.

You're also right that the connection isn't really spelled out much. At the time, setting-specific was something to avoid. It's more of a nod to the 1E adventures than anything else. There certainly wasn't room to repeat information on Erelhei-Cinlu and the Vault, but I remember putting in a couple digs about the true ghouls driving the drow away from their common borders. Not sure whether that survived from the original ms to the final printed version.

[Wolfgang Baur]

Loops! wrote:

Or did Moreto travel all the way from the Hellfurnaces to White Plume Mountain underground along the River of Blood? That´s a long way to go...

It is a long way, but the undead march very, very quickly and without rest, a point that Dungeon 70 emphasizes.

I like the idea of Moreto walking a long way into exile along the River of Blood, but if it suits your campaign purposes better, perhaps there's a colony or outpost of the White Kingdom somewhere near WPM. If the party succeeds there, they may find directions to the Kingdom itself.

[Hagen]

As a relative newcomer to Greyhawk, I've managed to get my hands on most Greyhawk products that I know of, but have yet to see a map of the Underdark. Has there been anything of sort published over the years? I would dearly love to learn more about the Sunless Sea and the White Kingdom.

[Greg A. Vaughan]

Hagen wrote:

As a relative newcomer to Greyhawk, I've managed to get my hands on most Greyhawk products that I know of, but have yet to see a map of the Underdark. Has there been anything of sort published over the years? I would dearly love to learn more about the Sunless Sea and the White Kingdom.

I can't think of any source that defintively describes like has been done with the Forgotten Realms. Your best bet is probbaly the original as designed by Gary Gygax in D1,2, and 3 and then the follow-up information designed by Mr. Baur in Dungeon #70. Other than that, I think Greyhawk sources and adventures tend to more hint at the Underdark (or DeepOerth) rather than define it. There's a connection in the basement of adventure A2, a network of caverns called Blackthorn in the Gnarley Forest, the deep levels of Castle Greyhawk, etc., but nothing that really lays out the big picture. Even the old Dungeoneers Survival Guide which largely developed the concept of the Underdark (and may have actually coined the name) was in a generic setting. So you're kind of on your own in regards to a formal overview.

Though such an overview would be a worthy product for anyone interested in creating it (hint, hint Paizo and/or Wolfgang Baur).

[Black Dougal]

Greg V wrote:

I can't think of any source that defintively describes like has been done with the Forgotten Realms. Your best bet is probbaly the original as designed by Gary Gygax in D1,2, and 3 and then the follow-up information designed by Mr. Baur in Dungeon #70. Other than that, I think Greyhawk sources and adventures tend to more hint at the Underdark (or DeepOerth) rather than define it. There's a connection in the basement of adventure A2, a network of caverns called Blackthorn in the Gnarley Forest, the deep levels of Castle Greyhawk, etc., but nothing that really lays out the big picture. Even the old Dungeoneers Survival Guide which largely developed the concept of the Underdark (and may have actually coined the name) was in a generic setting. So you're kind of on your own in regards to a formal overview.

Though such an overview would be a worthy product for anyone interested in creating it (hint, hint Paizo and/or Wolfgang Baur).

As an aside, in the history of temple of elemental evil, Drow are mentioned as having visited after the intial sack, but does not indicate where they came from...long way from the hellfurnaces..

[Greg A. Vaughan]

Black Dougal wrote:

As an aside, in the history of temple of elemental evil, Drow are mentioned as having visited after the intial sack, but does not indicate where they came from...long way from the hellfurnaces..

And don't forget Lareth the Beautiful, the dark hope of the Demoness Lolth.

[JaenChronicler]

Greg V wrote:

And don't forget Lareth the Beautiful, the dark hope of the Demoness Lolth.

blast! there's a lot to read; where have i read about Lareth the Beautiful before? the name's familiar, but i can't place it...

Lareth is a RttToEE alumni, isn't she?

hmmm... there was a project on Canonfire that began to describe and map the DeepOerth, but i don't have a link into the forum there. again; blast!

this would be a really cool project, if only to describe the non-standard, mutant, variant cultures of the DeepOerth's caverns and tunnels.

and (to move back toward the thread's original purpose) the list of DeepOerth's cultures would begin with the drow of Erilhei-Cinlu, then be followed close behind by the White Kingdom and the Realm of the Cloakers.

ah - isn't it great to have a world this interesting to play in?

-peace is for the conquered-

[Greg A. Vaughan]

Lareth is actually a he (yeah, I know, the whole "beautiful" tag sounds a little squirrely for someone whose the dark hope of chaos and evil, but there it is). He appears first in the moathouse in the old T1 Village of Hommlet and later its reconstitution in the form of T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil, where it is assumed he gets thoroughly trashed before reappearing in RttToEE, where he suddenly becomes a much bigger player.

Anyway, with the whole supposed Lolth angle it would appear he has some Underdark connections as well, though they are never explained well in those adventures as I recall and no real Underdark regions are revealed in them (other than some dwarven mines in the Lortmils).

[Loops!]

Thanks for the feedback Wolfgang!

[talyn]

whos to say, we the fans coudlnt do such a thing...

We could look through all the old modules and supllements for greyhawk and plot them on one map, with refernces to what pertains to what...