Prince of Redhand is a great adventure. It looks interesting and has some really cool events and characters. Theres just one problem:
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Who in their right mind isn't going to try to chop a certain white haired female into bits as soon as they meet her? She's female, pretty, mysterious, and has her own full page picture your supposed to show the PC's. That just screams big nasty evil person thats going to destroy the party somehow. Why would they listen to a word she says or agree to meet with her? Every pretty female in DnD is evil, we all know that! :)
The rest is great though. Kudos to Paizo and the writer.
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.Who in their right mind isn't going to try to chop a certain white haired female into bits as soon as they meet her? She's female, pretty, mysterious, and has her own full page picture your supposed to show the PC's. That just screams big nasty evil person thats going to destroy the party somehow. Why would they listen to a word she says or agree to meet with her? Every pretty female in DnD is evil, we all know that! :)
The rest is great though. Kudos to Paizo and the writer.
Hey, Celeste wasn't evil from the Shackeled City and she was a pretty female.
Then again, I didn't know that when I ran the adventure that she appeared in. (I ran it from the magazine before the hard cover came out). Come to think of it, the party and myself (the DM) assumed that she was evil. Ok. You make a very valid point...
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.Who in their right mind isn't going to try to chop a certain white haired female into bits as soon as they meet her? She's female, pretty, mysterious, and has her own full page picture your supposed to show the PC's. That just screams big nasty evil person thats going to destroy the party somehow. Why would they listen to a word she says or agree to meet with her? Every pretty female in DnD is evil, we all know that! :)
The rest is great though. Kudos to Paizo and the writer.
Hey, Celeste wasn't evil from the Shackeled City and she was a pretty female.
Then again, I didn't know that when I ran the adventure that she appeared in. (I ran it from the magazine before the hard cover came out). Come to think of it, the party and myself (the DM) assumed that she was evil. Ok. You make a very valid point...
Not evil,just manipulative.
Creative Director
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Of course, one of the major themes of "Prince of Redhand" is the fact that the PCs have to work peacefully with evil in order to combat a greater evil. If your players are the type to jump on anyone that looks remotely evil and attack without questioning them, I highly doubt they'll make it to the end of the adventure to meet Lashonna in the first place.
And if they DO attack Lashonna when they're 15th level, well, I just hope they have backup characters.
Oh, and one more thing. Issue #132 (in which the PCs actually interact with Lashonna) has a half-page sidebar that talks about what to do if the PCs don't play nicely with her.
Yeah, I know theres fixes for that, and the story line is way cool. I just looked at the picture of her, read the description and thought: "She's so gonna get beat down". Now I can't wait to see her stats to know what kind of hurt she is going to put on my party. Of course theres no way my two paladins who act more like religious zealots then paladins are going to make it through the dinner to actually meet her.
...Who in their right mind isn't going to try to chop a certain white haired female into bits as soon as they meet her? ...
If players are going to willfully, recklessly sabotage the campaign, I let it stay sabotaged.
Yeah, not the most constructive imput -- I grant players a lot of leeway, but there are limits. Killing everything they see without restraint or thought crosses that line.
I might add that another word for what you're describing (at least in my campaign) is suicide. The heroes die and the Age of Worms comes to pass.
Regards :)
Jack
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I just looked at the picture of her, read the description and thought: "She's so gonna get beat down".
I would be more worried about the PCs. she's a vampiric silver dragon, for pete's sake! now I know the PCs are fairly high level at this point, but if they try to take her on in prince of redhand they're dead. Even if they kill her, they'd be attacked by the blessed angels, everyone at the party, and pretty much everyone else in the city. even though they're powerful, there's no way they would survive that. no one's that stupid.
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Creative Director
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I just looked at the picture of her, read the description and thought: "She's so gonna get beat down".
Lashonna should have no problem at all handling a group of 15th level characters. Her stats aren't done yet, but when they are, she'll be about a CR 23 creature. Add in all the other NPCs in that encounter that would likely rush to her aid (including CR 16 Prince Zeech and his invisible erinyes mortal hunters) and you've got what amounts to about an EL 26 encounter. So if the PCs can't hold back their urges to kill, they'll reap what they sow.
Of course theres no way my two paladins who act more like religious zealots then paladins are going to make it through the dinner to actually meet her.
I had a paladin problem like that once. The rogue tied him up and gagged him so he wouldn't blow the party's cover on a mission ;)
If a Paladin acts like a crusader in Redhand, he won´t make it to the celebration anyway: The very moment he sees one of the erinyes flying about openly, its over for him, he either leaves town or dies fighting. The whole adventure teaches a lesson: you can´t fight everything evil, even if you are a crusader for good. This opens interesting moral questions, not only for paladins, but for your average ranger "freedom fighter" as well.
How did those crusaders survived so long anyway? Blatant evil is a theme throughout the AP, and if they are so narrow-minded, they should have attacked Balabar Smenk, Sheriff Cubbin, Mayor Neff or several others in Diamond Lake, with predictable results.
Stefan
Every pretty female in DnD is evil, we all know that! :)
Just in D&D? :)
Every pretty female in DnD is evil, we all know that! :)Just in D&D? :)
Like he said! I think Dumas started it all with "Milady"--birth of the femme fatale!
My party didn't even trust Allustan when they first met him. I think players tend to distrust npcs in general, based on the number of times they've been stabbed in the back by evil npcs masked as "good" npcs.
I'd just make sure that she does something for the party that is appreciated by them and makes them like her. Of course, I'm sure there will be such goings on in the next installment of the adventure path... This series is awesome in my humble opinion.
And if they DO attack Lashonna when they're 15th level, well, I just hope they have backup characters.
Rofl... The AoW has put so much fear (and pain) into my party that they've all adopted the "Dark Sun" rule: everyone now has at least two extra characters on standby in case of death ;)
My party didn't even trust Allustan when they first met him. I think players tend to distrust npcs in general, based on the number of times they've been stabbed in the back by evil npcs masked as "good" npcs.
I'd just make sure that she does something for the party that is appreciated by them and makes them like her. Of course, I'm sure there will be such goings on in the next installment of the adventure path... This series is awesome in my humble opinion.
Ah, if only they saw the pattern: See, Allustan's chances of being evil are less than 10%. Indeed, he is a patron, AND the focus of the first half of the AP, dropping his overall chances of being evil to below 1%.
Why? Because. Lower-level backdrops (such as towns) tend to be inhabited by good NPCs. The ones that aren't good tend to be neutral. Regardless of alignment, they are overall helpful, seeing to the PCs needs as time and resources allow.
But advance a few levels and watch this change: Slowly, NPCs become evil and selfish. Neutral NPCs are often insane, or at least unhelpful.
Get to the higher levels (such as we see in Redhand), and not only are good NPCs almost unheard of, but any that DO exist border on being useless. Rulers are always evil and corrupt, shopkeepers generally don't offer good deals unless their goods are illegal, and again, most neutral NPCs are either unhelpful or completely insane.
Suggestion: If the next AP uses an NPC like Allustan, it would be nice if such a person were evil, or at least involved in the more sinsiter dealings of the overplot. Then, maybe, we can get someone good who actually matters worth half a damn in the last leg of the game.
Anyway, it took me awhile to warm up to the AoW (and the writing still galls me in places, as you've no doubt seen), but with Price of Redhand, it's finally shaping up for me. It almost seems like it'd work better if the players don't go to the Well before the party, but anyone canny enough to find the Well is probably smart enough to not tell anyone in Redhand that it's there...
I never thought I'd say this, but I can barely WAIT for Dawn of a New Age...
Every pretty female in DnD is evil, we all know that! :)
Alustriel, Laeral, etc.
Queen Aurala ir'Wynarn
And especially: Celeste
Of course it might be that the previous campaigns campaigns you DMed included a lot of plotting, evil and murderous femmes fatales. I don't know.
Lay on the couch and tell us more about it... just a second, I am getting my notepad and pencil. ;-)
Bocklin
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Every pretty female in DnD is evil, we all know that! :)Alustriel, Laeral, etc.
Queen Aurala ir'Wynarn
And especially: Celeste
Of course it might be that the previous campaigns campaigns you DMed included a lot of plotting, evil and murderous femmes fatales. I don't know.
Lay on the couch and tell us more about it... just a second, I am getting my notepad and pencil. ;-)
Bocklin
Oh, despite her alignment, I see Aurala as one of the most dangerous people in the Eberron political landscape. A beautiful, ambitious woman with deep resources--watch out, world.
Its quite simple:
1. Greyhawk..hot woman=evil
2. Forgotten Realms..hot woman = good
3. Ebberon..hot woman = true Neutral.
Interesting concept! ;-)
Its quite simple:
2. Forgotten Realms..hot woman = good
Thats just because the author's are pervies. One who seems to make lots of the woman characters in particular. :)
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I had a similar problem running Privateer Press' "Witchfire Trilogy" last year (A SPECTACULAR ADVENTURE, BTW). In the adventure, not only is the major antagonist attractive and female, but theres a full page painting of her on the COVER of all three modules. I had to put slipcovers on my module books, but the way I sidestepped the "shes hot and female... kill her!!!" aspect was surprisingly easy. With five ale and one female player, the answer came easy.
I made them love her.
When playing her before they knew she was a baddie, she was kind, helpful, and sweet, the very model of the "helpful NPC youre going to have to save soon from the bad guy". Eventually the PCs started asking her questions about the ission they were on, letting her know they were starting to get on to her plans. When one of the male players started flirting with her, still thinking her pure as new-driven snow (I even put her in a white silk dress in my description) she saw the opportunity and capitalized on it. She said she needed to talk to him alone and BAM!! one charm person later and suddenly the party has a stern proponent of the little girl in their midst. And she made sure she kept in contact with her new beau in order to keep the spell up. By the time the party realized what was truly up, they almost had to put the party cleric down because he was so strongly enamored of her.
It might not work verbatim for Lashonna, but I guarantee that if you make her seem like another of the Gaming Cliches (namely, the Female You Have To Save Later), they'll bite on it. My personal route would, despite the text to the contrary, have her seem like Zeech's lover until the night of the banuet when they see her deftly slide aside of a couple of advances. This puts her in the "he wont leave me alone" vein for when they encounter her later and gives you an "in" on that roleplay topic.
Basically, if they expect something, feed them something else they might expect and then let them bite on that.
Lower-level backdrops (such as towns) tend to be inhabited by good NPCs. The ones that aren't good tend to be neutral. Regardless of alignment, they are overall helpful, seeing to the PCs needs as time and resources allow.
Ahem. I must disagree with you here. Diamond Lake is so chock-full of evil/neutral-evil NPCs (at least IMC) that one of the PCs actually started to suspect his own mother. My party has had conflict with Filge, Kullen and his gang, Sheriff Cubbin and his deputy, Wieran Jierus (I replaced Gallak Kur with 'im), Smenk, Dourstone, and Khellek's party. Allustan is the only guy they have on their side, and, naturally, they started to suspect him after he left them behind to face the lizard folk at Blackstone alone. I'd say there are plenty of baddies in the early going here.
O
I think the second picture of Lashonna in Library of Last Resort is probably the one I'm going to first show my PCs, since its a little less sinister. Also, since my players tend to meta game, its good that its another head shot like the other npcs in the module.
Unless, of course, I figure that its a good idea for the PCs to suspect her from the start.
Frankly, I find it odd that adventurers do anything that people ask them to do, considering how many times they get stabbed in the back.
Then again:
http://paizo.com/dungeon/messageboards/ageOfWorms/couldItBeDigitalFootageOf EricMonaSAOWCampaign
Might, just might, alongside all that unjustified stereotyping and anecdotal evididence of female players and happily married players, there be, deep inside.....? Entirely hypothetical and inconsequential off course. Then again we're male...., gamegeeks/nerds (well you all are indefinately, even if you're female) and such.
And still, there's nothing to ashamed of, eh look at Vin diesel for instance, well just look at him, tight macho muscular male testosterone body. Ehrm, you see?
But maybe a tad, a little wee bit?
:), Arjen
Now what he means when he says "Really matter" is that they do something. I think that perhaps it might work out better if there was a better reason for Manzorian not to go out with the adventurers. Possibly he is doing something like in lord of the rings with gandalf Casting his mind out and fighting against the dark power or something. Perhaps the PCs discover that without Manzorian, the pc would be crushed by the might of the mind of Kyuss.
Also, if they do end up killing/getting killed by lashona, you should make another campaign in which the age of worms has come to pass. Kyuss is the cheif deity, the "overgod" is his servant, and Dragotha is well on his way to becoming a demigod. The pc's could be part of a small resistance in the dark land.
Also, if they do end up killing/getting killed by lashona, you should make another campaign in which the age of worms has come to pass. Kyuss is the cheif deity, the "overgod" is his servant, and Dragotha is well on his way to becoming a demigod. The pc's could be part of a small resistance in the dark land.
I like the sound of that campaign...
Rich
I only skimmed thru "The Prince of Redhand", but all of the info that the pc's have regarding Lashonna are from Balakarde's notes. Those notes expain that she may be helpful. If the players are role-playing and not meta gaming, shouldn't they be using sense motive skills to detect any deceptive plots? Even with Detection spells / abilities, Lashonna probably has counter-measures in place. Again, I only skimmed the adventure and I realize that the stats on Lashonna are not given, but that is my take on the Redhand Problem.
Utak
A note, they should only be using sense motive if they have reason not to trust someone.
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I only skimmed thru "The Prince of Redhand", but all of the info that the pc's have regarding Lashonna are from Balakarde's notes. Those notes expain that she may be helpful. If the players are role-playing and not meta gaming, shouldn't they be using sense motive skills to detect any deceptive plots? Even with Detection spells / abilities, Lashonna probably has counter-measures in place. Again, I only skimmed the adventure and I realize that the stats on Lashonna are not given, but that is my take on the Redhand Problem.
Utak
The stats will probably be given in "dawn of a new age"
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I think the second picture of Lashonna in Library of Last Resort is probably the one I'm going to first show my PCs, since its a little less sinister. Also, since my players tend to meta game, its good that its another head shot like the other npcs in the module.
Unless, of course, I figure that its a good idea for the PCs to suspect her from the start.
Frankly, I find it odd that adventurers do anything that people ask them to do, considering how many times they get stabbed in the back.
That issue must be out, eh? Still haven't received my copy.
:-(