I was thinking about a mechanic that would allow sunder attempts to be used on the bodyparts of creatures.
does anyone have any methods out there already that are balanced?
Without a lot of house rules and a whole lot of heartache when the first time an undefined instance occurs, it simply isn't worth the trouble. D&D isn't set up for that type of play. If you're going to go through the trouble of charting out the possibilities for "Called Shots", you should probably implement body hit locations.
This idea was probably best utilized in RuneQuest. Body locations had Armor Values (D&D Damage Reduction) and individual hit points. Its been a long time, so I don't recall if damaged or lost body locations carried penalties (I'm gussing missing your head or your chest/torso carried the heaviest penalties). Twilight:2000 also used a body location mechanic for damage, and usually the loss of a limb meant incapacitation; I don't think there were wound penalties from what I remember.
This all assumes that D&D has not already implemented this mechanic in other expansion books (like UA), but I haven't heard of anything....
This idea was probably best utilized in RuneQuest. Body locations had Armor Values (D&D Damage Reduction) and individual hit points. Its been a long time, so I don't recall if damaged or lost body locations carried penalties (I'm gussing missing your head or your chest/torso carried the heaviest penalties).
I once played in a game with a Home-Made system that had individual hit points for body parts and armor. My opinion was that it slowed even the most simple fight (like vs. a single kobold) to a lamentable turtle-paced event. So we avoided battles like they were the plague.
This is ONLY my opinion; Stick to the regular battle plan and cut off bodyparts only when it seems like it would augment the visual value of a fight, like in a big boss fight. If your players still want to use called shots, tell them that from now on, every enemy will be gunning for their heads on every hit.
Ultradan
I have no idea what happened here I originally wrote a really long and detailed post on what I was talking about but apparently something went wrong.
My original post was more like this
I have partially developed a system that allows the use of the sunder attack to hew an opponent's limbs off.
First off this would not allow the targeting of heads chest ect. Any attack made on those body parts is immediatly leathal and thereby qualify as a normal attack roll as the objective of a normat attck roll is to kill the target. The only body parts you could sunder are those that would not kill the subject outright. Hacking all of a humans limb's off would most certainly be lethal (from shock or blood loss) but not neccesarily so. Any body part that is not neccesary to sustain the creatures life, such as one of a hydras many heads (with a special exception for the last head addmittidly), can be targetted with this effect.
What I have so far is an that is a far cry from the sunder ability
Step one: This use of the ability takes a standard action so the aggressor won't be making any other attcks that round. Attack of opportunity from all enemies threatening you as it takes time to line up the attack. The Improved sunder feat stops the Aoo from the target but not from any other source
Step two: make an attack roll at a -8 penalty. This penalty decreases to -4 if the attacker uses a two handed weapon, and increases to -12 if the attacker is using a light weapon. And the improved sunder feat also reduces the penalty by 4 (so impoved sunder and a two hander take no penalty.
Step three: To sever the limb the damage done by the sunder attck must be equal to or greater than 1/4th the creatures total hit points for major limbs (arms legs wings ect) this is not changed by the number of major limbs the creature has (just because a xill has more arems doesen't mean it's easier to cut them off) or 1/10th of the creatures total hit points for minor limbs, such as a beholders eye stalks or a mind flayers tentacles. If damage is dealt but it is not enough to destroy the limb than that limb is wounded and takes a corresponding penalty. Either a -2 to any attacks the limb performs or halving whatever movement speed it is associatd with.
no matter how much damage is dealt in the sunder attempt the actual damage to a creatures hit points is always 1/(number of major limbs) multiplied by the maximum hit points of the creature. In this fashion a creature with all of it's major limbs removed will at 0 and be dying. More so perhaps if the DM applies blood loss damage each round. ( I haven't decided yet)
Any healing applied to a creature with a wounded limb automatically removes the penalty
That about covers it. The penalty is steep because normal attack rolls aim for center mass trying to kill the creature. Limbs however take a lot less time for the body to move out of harms way and so are hard to target effectivly. That accounts for the increased time as well.
I introduce this because I wan't an effective, If some what brutal, method for my characters to hamper but not to kill opponents.
I ask that you look over this and point out any flaws you may see in my scheme.
For what it's worth...
I developed a system for fighters that allows for hit location. This system is typically used when it's only hand to hand combat...usually between VERY experienced warrior types or for my epic campaigns.
It's called the Real-time Perpetual Combat System. Combat is perpetual (time wise) once initiated and stops only when all are either parlaying, gone, or dead. (One initial roll for who starts first but all subsequent actions are based on weapon speed.)
The mechanic you may be able to use comes from this system where you can allow a called shot or let each combatant roll for hit location.
Called shots must be stated before the roll and are successful only when the die roll is 4 or more than what was required to hit (using modifiers). Seems Sunder could work here.
Non-called shots require the player to roll for hit location using this table. (Sunder could work here too...)
Die Roll - Body Part
1 - Head
20 - Groin
14-15 - Upper Right Arm
16 - Lower Right Arm
6-7 - Upper Left Arm
5 - Lower Left Arm
9-12 - Chest
8 or 13 - Abdomen
17-18 - Upper Right Leg
19 - Lower Right Leg
3-4 - Upper Left Leg
2 - Lower Left Leg
Stillfoxx
"Live or die, you decide..."
**SPOILER**
I think Ultradan is agreeing...and I would like to elaborate on what I think he is talking about...
As a DM, I glorify battle results when running the game by describing the hit. I usually let a character cut the legs off of a creature such as an Ankheg since it had more than two and won't affect its combat statistics. Another good example was last week I had a player roll a critical hit with a battle-axe while power-attacking on the Vrock in HoHR. The Vrock was at Max hitpoints, so the 70-some points of damage and massive damage roll didn't kill it. I described that he DID lop the head off. What happened? Ever seena chicken with its head cut off?! :) The Vrock kept on attacking with its talons and claws but minus its bite attack. The head was still alive for the time being and wiggling on the ground. I got caught up in the gore of the situation and if I could go back I'd give the PCs total concealment, but we had a good time and nobody noticed.
Back to the point: The players want to chop off the arm of a sword wielder, hamstring a thief with spring attack, and the like. I just don't think its worth the trouble...
If your players still want to use called shots, tell them that from now on, every enemy will be gunning for their heads on every hit.
Ultradan
Excellent point...
This is actually part of my realm....every fighter knows that an intelligent, non-raging fighter-type will aim for the head and neck if possible; especially if it's an uncovered or unarmoured head...but then I use armour points too...so most armoured peeps can take a couple of shots there.
Stillfoxx
"Live or die, you decide..."
I have no idea what happened here I originally wrote a really long and detailed post on what I was talking about but apparently something went wrong.
My original post was more like this
I have partially developed a system that allows the use of the sunder attack to hew an opponent's limbs off.
First off this would not allow the targeting of heads chest ect. Any attack made on those body parts is immediatly leathal and thereby qualify as a normal attack roll as the objective of a normat attck roll is to kill the target. The only body parts you could sunder are those that would not kill the subject outright. Hacking all of a humans limb's off would most certainly be lethal (from shock or blood loss) but not neccesarily so. Any body part that is not neccesary to sustain the creatures life, such as one of a hydras many heads (with a special exception for the last head addmittidly), can be targetted with this effect.
What I have so far is an that is a far cry from the sunder ability
Step one: This use of the ability takes a standard action so the aggressor won't be making any other attcks that round. Attack of opportunity from all enemies threatening you as it takes time to line up the attack. The Improved sunder feat stops the Aoo from the target but not from any other source
Step two: make an attack roll at a -8 penalty. This penalty decreases to -4 if the attacker uses a two handed weapon, and increases to -12 if the attacker is using a light weapon. And the improved sunder feat also reduces the penalty by 4 (so impoved sunder and a two hander take no penalty.
Step three: To sever the limb the damage done by the sunder attck must be equal to or greater than 1/4th the creatures total hit points for major limbs (arms legs wings ect) this is not changed by the number of major limbs the creature has (just because a xill has more arems doesen't mean it's easier to cut them off) or 1/10th of the creatures total hit points for minor limbs, such as a beholders eye stalks or a mind flayers tentacles. If damage is dealt but it is not enough to destroy the limb than that limb is wounded and takes a corresponding penalty. Either a -2 to any attacks the limb performs or halving whatever movement speed it is associatd with.
no matter how much damage is dealt in the sunder attempt the actual damage to a creatures hit points is always 1/(number of major limbs) multiplied by the maximum hit points of the creature. In this fashion a creature with all of it's major limbs removed will at 0 and be dying. More so perhaps if the DM applies blood loss damage each round. ( I haven't decided yet)
Any healing applied to a creature with a wounded limb automatically removes the penalty
That about covers it. The penalty is steep because normal attack rolls aim for center mass trying to kill the creature. Limbs however take a lot less time for the body to move out of harms way and so are hard to target effectivly. That accounts for the increased time as well.
I introduce this because I wan't an effective, If some what brutal, method for my characters to hamper but not to kill opponents.
I ask that you look over this and point out any flaws you may see in my scheme.
My original post was more like this
I have partially developed a system that allows the use of the sunder attack to hew an opponent's limbs off.
On second thought...me thinks Sunder should be kept as is in the PH...to allow it on body parts would cause too much of an imbalance. Not to mention the slugging it would do to the flow of melee.
Stillfoxx
"Live or die, you decide..."
I keep it simple, but I do allow it because it is a legitimate tactic that makes the combat system more realistic.
Called shots are -8 vs. the actual AC of the body part being targeted. If you score a hit, the target gets to make an opposed melee attack roll vs. your total roll. If the target beats the attacker's roll, the target parried the attack.
Since the attacker can "call a shot" the defender can also "call a parry."
It lets this tactic into the game without making it something the pC's want to try all the time.
I once played in a game with a Home-Made system that had individual hit points for body parts and armor. My opinion was that it slowed even the most simple fight (like vs. a single kobold) to a lamentable turtle-paced event. So we avoided battles like they were the plague.This is ONLY my opinion; Stick to the regular battle plan and cut off bodyparts only when it seems like it would augment the visual value of a fight, like in a big boss fight. If your players still want to use called shots, tell them that from now on, every enemy will be gunning for their heads on every hit.
Ultradan
I've had the same experience both with things like body parts and with really detailed combat systems using weapon speed etc. I once allowed into my campaign (back when I was 18 or 19) a really well thought out and balanced weapon combat system that did wonders to pretty much equalize out all the weapons in the game via price, damage and speed factors. Combat essentially was not divided into rounds at all but was continious in phases. So if a dagger had a speed factor of 3 after being modified by the wielders dex then every 3 phases the wielder could attack. I think it was only ever really used in an impressive battle with a slew of Scro (who all wielded a diverse aray of interesting weapons and spells) versus the party - who was like wise armed with a diverse array of spells and weapons.
The whole system worked great except that it took 2-3 times as long as a simple roll to hit and then roll damage. In the end I killed it simply because an exciting battle with Scro just seemed less exciting when it took 6+ hours to run.
I'd shy away from most of these sorts of systems - I use critical hits and basic fumbles because they add a lot to the entertainment and only a small amount to the time involved but 3.5 is already a bit of a beast in terms of working out sizable fights with mid to high level characters. Anything that slows this down even more has to be just phenominally good to be worth adding as the fight is only part of the story - when one takes a whole session to resolve its tough on the story as a whole as everyone ends up going home and realizing that mostly they did not seem to do anything that session but battle a beastie.
Sure the odd epic battle royal that goes for two sessions probably enhnces the experience instead of detracting from it - especially if the fight pits the players against a major villian they have been trying to get at for the last 10 sessions but by and large faster is usually better (to a point) if its just some generic guard room and the inhabitents.
If your players still want to use called shots, tell them that from now on, every enemy will be gunning for their heads on every hit.
Ultradan
Excellent point...
This is actually part of my realm....every fighter knows that an intelligent, non-raging fighter-type will aim for the head and neck if possible; especially if it's an uncovered or unarmoured head...but then I use armour points too...so most armoured peeps can take a couple of shots there.
Stillfoxx
"Live or die, you decide..."
Actually, I assume that when there's a fight, EVERYBODY is aiming for vulnerable parts, and that every hit is intended to kill. I mean, who would fight an evil warlord and try not to hurt him too much.
Trust me everyone, using called shots just sounds good on paper, but in practice it just kills the fight.
Ultradan
I once played in a game with a Home-Made system that had individual hit points for body parts and armor. My opinion was that it slowed even the most simple fight (like vs. a single kobold) to a lamentable turtle-paced event. So we avoided battles like they were the plague.This is ONLY my opinion; Stick to the regular battle plan and cut off bodyparts only when it seems like it would augment the visual value of a fight, like in a big boss fight. If your players still want to use called shots, tell them that from now on, every enemy will be gunning for their heads on every hit.
Ultradan
I've had the same experience both with things like body parts and with really detailed combat systems using weapon speed etc. I once allowed into my campaign (back when I was 18 or 19) a really well thought out and balanced weapon combat system that did wonders to pretty much equalize out all the weapons in the game via price, damage and speed factors. Combat essentially was not divided into rounds at all but was continious in phases. So if a dagger had a speed factor of 3 after being modified by the wielders dex then every 3 phases the wielder could attack. I think it was only ever really used in an impressive battle with a slew of Scro (who all wielded a diverse aray of interesting weapons and spells) versus the party - who was like wise armed with a diverse array of spells and weapons.
The whole system worked great except that it took 2-3 times as long as a simple roll to hit and then roll damage. In the end I killed it simply because an exciting battle with Scro just seemed less exciting when it took 6+ hours to run.
I'd shy away from most of these sorts of systems - I use critical hits and basic fumbles because they add a lot to the entertainment and only a small amount to the time involved but 3.5 is already a bit of a beast in terms of working out sizable fights with mid to high level characters. Anything that slows this down even more has to be just phenominally good to...
Jeremy, it almost sounds like you were playing at my table a few years back.
Ultradan
I know this thread is a little stale but i was just perusing old material when I came across it. The DMG offers a fine system for damage to specific areas (p. 27). In the 2E books (somewhere) I recall that a called shot was made at -4. That seems resonable, so a player (or monster) that wants to damage a body part would have to do some set amount of damage on a successful hit (at -4) to give the target a -2 on the various checks listed in the DMG. I would suggest that 12.5% (1/8) of the targets maximum hp would be a satisfactory threshold. multiple hits to the affected area would confer stacking penelties.
My suggestion: Run with the system as is, except: if the PC threatens a critical hit, they may take a penalty on the confirmation roll to hit a specific target. (The penalty depends on the size of the target body part; -1 if the target area is about the same size as a halfling, like a human's leg, to -8 for something like an eye or a thumb) If the confirmation roll goes through, damage remains the same, but all uses with the affected body part are hindered (typically -2). If a hindered part is struck again it is disabled (can't use any action related to that part).
Now, if you use a system of critical hits, make sure to include plenty of gorgets in your game.
well, speaking of using sunder against living creatures...
one of the ways to kill a hydra is to sunder each of its heads with a slashing weapon. so, maybe imp. sunder as a requirement for a vorpal-style feat is not so far off the mark...
tog