Hey all,
Just a quick question...anyone out there hate vorpal weapons as much as i do (when Dming that is)?
I find them totally unbalancing (lopping a guy's head off when he still has over 100 hit points...especially since the game doesn't have called shot mechanics in it!!).
Besides whith certain feats, the mid to high level fighter (ex one using 2 weapon fighting with improved crit with both his weapons) is almost crtitting every other round if not every round (this was from personal experience in a game I was running a while back..and a PC had a vorpal blade...silly me not realising how unbalancing it was...ruined my whole campaign!)!!
Needless to say when I Dm now, I have totally outlawed this weapon. I was just wondering if the general opinion out there is that i'm just being too pig headed and hard on my players? Or do others agree with me on this?
I think the weapon is balanced fine.
Just aas their are feats and magic that enhance the chance for crit, their are magic and feats to make it harder to crit.
A vorpal weapon IMO should be RARE. Not an item you find in the local magic shop - if available (in my world) it would only be by getting it out of the hands of a wielder powerful for him to make sense having it in the first place and his buddies. That would (in my world) dissuade most people from going after it.
If they wanted to craft it - they would first have to research how, which is not part of the craft process it is a discresionary period determined by the DM, then pay the gold, xp. and time to create it. In my experience applying the time requirement makes a lot of cool items undesireable for casters to create - add a couple of pluses and few special properties and a vorpal takes several months - during which the creator can't cast spells, get into combat etc., or the effort on the weapon is lost. Let em get near the end then have him attacked and see what happens, if he hasa to start over at least once.
Then when the new wielder has it - survivors may covet it - even hire skilled thieves to steal it.
Lots of ways to balance the existence of a powerful weapon.
Heya Kyr,
Thanks for the reply.
I totally agree with the rarity and high cost, but my issue was once het GOT the item =(
It really hate as the Dm punishing players by having thieves steal their weapon in the night...or having a god come down to reclaim the weapon that's too powerful (it just seems heavy handed to me..and punishing the player for a mistake I made...so that's why I opted not to allow them to begin with after that last fiasco).
It got pretty old having every major villain wear armor of fortification to save their neck LOL.
I just thought the whole idea unbalanced game mechanics (instantly killing someone with a lot of hit points left?). Yes i know it makes it more realistic, but the game mechanics don't go that way ;hence the lack of Called shot rules...or modifiers to injured characters or monsters...the game just relies on hit points...or in certain situations a failed save can get you disintegrated etc.. but overall you cannot have your archer say target the dragons eye to blind it.
This now creates a whole new set of problems to force me to say to the PC "an outright NO, you can't do that"..or give them a higher DC and start improvisong called shot rules and effects. But that's an entirely new discussion I must digress.
I just found it easier overall to remove the weapon feature entirely.
But who knows...If i get enough good replies I may yet have to rexamine my decision.
I don't think having theives target high level characters or high power, high profile magic items is unrealistic. Especially if the characters brag about them, show them off etc.
It is what thieves do - and I think part of a realistic world.
Other choices - enemies without anatomies, traps, puzzles, ghosts, oozes, enemies that attack at range and move to maintain that range, areas were magic doesn't function, lernean hydra as an opponent, I just don't think the weapon is the issue - in an individual encounter yeah its great - but you still have to get a critical - not easy in the first place, or at least shouldn't be.
My two cents
I have used the vorpal weapon as a player and had it used against me as a DM. I feel that it is a powerful weapon, but not overbalanced. And I agree with Kyr's proposal to have thieves and other characters come after your players with the vorpal weapons.
A bit from my Hoarde
Don't forget too, that if the character gets too famous for using his head removal tool, a NPC with an adamantine weapon and improved sunder can always start gunning for him as well. As you have said, vorpal weapons are part of the rules, but so are the rules for sundering . . .
Yeah, when we played the only way to get a vorpal weapon to work was to roll a natural 20. And then you had to roll again to see if you hit. We also had weapons that did something similar. If a natural 20 was rolled and it was confirmed hit, the player then rolled a D6. If it rolled a 1 it was the head, if a 2 it was the right arm, a 3=left arm, 4=right leg, 5=left leg, and a 6 was the head again, so it wasn't an outright kill but i thought it was better than a vorpal weapon, I mean, how much fun is a campaign when you get to start lopping limbs off....nothing quite like seeing a troll fall down for a while when it is missing a leg...of course fire is always important to have on hand when that happens, as if new parts start regenerating, things get realy complicated.
I have used the vorpal weapon as a player and had it used against me as a DM. I feel that it is a powerful weapon, but not overbalanced. And I agree with Kyr's proposal to have thieves and other characters come after your players with the vorpal weapons.
A bit from my Hoarde
Theives are OK if the players are going to track the rat bastards down - but then it solves nothing. The alternitive of Thieves takeyour best magic weapon (hey and maybe the mages spell book as well) vanish into the night and are never seen again...ha ha - I totally nerfed you...is not going to go over well with most players. Nor should it - better to have the Gods interviene to preserve the power balance of the world - maybe give the player the GP value of the weapon in return or some such so that the player at least undertands why he is being robbed of his Hackmaster +14 and gets some compensation.
In our gaming group, they are relatively common for high level characters. We also rule criticals at a natural 18, 19, or 20 (MUST be natural... no modifiers). However, what balances it is a relatively common piece of equipment called a Collar of Shantyr (metal collar that protects you from decapitation).
It was already in use when I started gaming with this group, so I'm not sure where it came from. I think I was told that it wasn't in the DMG, but the idea was based off an existing magical item that does the same thing. (The word "tismet" is stuck in my head, but I'm not sure if that's right).
Some baddies wear one, some don't. Some PCs wear one and some don't. Keeps vorpal weapons something you want to get without allowing them to become an unbalancing factor.
Hey all,
Just a quick question...anyone out there hate vorpal weapons as much as i do (when Dming that is)?
I find them totally unbalancing (lopping a guy's head off when he still has over 100 hit points...especially since the game doesn't have called shot mechanics in it!!).
Besides whith certain feats, the mid to high level fighter (ex one using 2 weapon fighting with improved crit with both his weapons) is almost crtitting every other round if not every round (this was from personal experience in a game I was running a while back..and a PC had a vorpal blade...silly me not realising how unbalancing it was...ruined my whole campaign!)!!Needless to say when I Dm now, I have totally outlawed this weapon. I was just wondering if the general opinion out there is that i'm just being too pig headed and hard on my players? Or do others agree with me on this?
I just checked the rules when Befar mentioned he felt it was a 20 only. He's right. For the vorpal weapon to work you must roll a natural 20 and then you must confirm the critical. A natural 19 with any feat, class, magic combo etc. is nothing more then a possible critical hit, it never beheads a guy. The only reason a vorpal weapon is better in the hands of a 20th level fighter compared with a 1st level one is that the 20th level fighter has a better chance of confirming the critical when he does get lucky that 1 time in 20 and rolls.
The weapon seems completely balanced to me - in fact it might be overpriced for its rather limited ability.
With the theives stealing the Vorpal weapon, there is always a slightly more elaborate setup.
Unscrupulous noble arranges to have the sword 'stolen' by hiring theives/sending agents. Powerful Villain, or even just a greedy schemer. Some oponents are just too entrenched to be taken on directly, if a noble is involved that adds a whole new level of complication. If the PCs just go out and kill him to take it back, they can open up a whole can of worms they might not be ready for.
If it's just a group of theives on their own... well, how long does it take to track them down and what buyers can they find for the item? Stolen goods tend to be sold off quickly, especially 'hot' ones, that are likely to bring the previous owners looking. What if it was sold to a powerful assassin? As a general rule, fighting an assassin on their own ground when they likely know you're coming, is not really a wise idea. Don't forget also that sneaky villains can have escape routes planned and are often not ashamed to run from a fight if it's in their best interests. Chasing down the Vorpal weapon could easily become a long series of adventures in and of itself.
If you still think that it is unbalanced when it only works on a natural 20 (IMO it is balanced) then you should consider removing the weapon or start, occasionally, giving NPCs the ability to negate the vorpal ability.
1. Disarm the fighter and take the sword away, start swinging the sword at the fighter and see how quickly he runs away.
2. Break the sword with sunder, not nice but effective.
3. Magically disenchant the sword or supress its abilities: antimagic field, targeted dispel magic, Mordenkainen's Disjunction.
3a. The Spellguant in MM2, with CR 12, can perform a disjunctive bite and render the weapon nonmagical.
4. Steal the sword, as discussed this can lead to many exciting chase scenes. You can also have the local artificer (Eberron Campaign class) remove the swords essense to gain craft points.
5. Start sending the PCs up against more oozes and undead or things that are immune to criticals. They cannot be beheaded if they are immune to criticals.
5a. Give important NPCs heavy fortification on their armour, it negates critical hits. Light fortification is a +1 armour bonus and grants a 25% chance to negate critical hits.
I quess that you do not have to punish the player for having a powerful weapon, just make their lives a little uncomfortable every now and again.
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I agree with most of the advice given here (Vorpal is vicious, I agree, but at 72k for a +1, vorpal, you won't see very many..)
However, I will note that Fortification does not grant immunity to vorpal. In fact, immunity to critical hits means the creature doesn't suffer the extra damage, but you'll note that an ooze,elemental, plant, undead, and construct all would take extra damage from a X burst weapon if the player confirmed the crit. Likewise, an undead or construct will have its head removed by the vorpal weapon (to absolutely no effect), while the ooze (and likel the elemetnal) will of course be left untouched. Depending on the plant's physiology (i.e. humanoid-esque treants & needlefolk vs. headless shambling mounds and red sundews) the description of the effect will vary, but none will die.
But, back to my original point, a heavy fortified player, struck by a vorpal weapon, is still going to lose their head if the critical is confirmed, they just would be taking less damage as well ;). The best way to avoid a Vorpal effect is to be of an undead (non-vampire), elemental, plant, or ooze character, or to start getting yourself concealment.
Theives are OK if the players are going to track the rat bastards down - but then it solves nothing. The alternitive of Thieves takeyour best magic weapon (hey and maybe the mages spell book as well) vanish into the night and are never seen again...ha ha - I totally nerfed you...is not going to go over well with most players. Nor should it - better to have the Gods interviene to preserve the power balance of the world - maybe give the player the GP value of the weapon in return or some such so that the player at least undertands why he is being robbed of his Hackmaster +14 and gets some compensation.
Its not "ha ha I totally nerfed you." Thieves exist in real life, they exist in fiction, and at the end of the day thats basically what all PCs are kill things take their stuff. To think they themselves wouldn't be targets of interest once they have desireable equipment is a sign that the world is not thought through, as is the intervention of gods in the management of equipment lists. In my opinion deus ex machina should be rarer by far than the vorpal weapon in question.
Possession of any powerful item, wealth of any sort, demands that the possessor be able to defend it if they mean to keep it.
Just my opinion.
However, I will note that Fortification does not grant immunity to vorpal. In fact, immunity to critical hits means the creature doesn't suffer the extra damage, but you'll note that an ooze,elemental, plant, undead, and construct all would take extra damage from a X burst weapon if the player confirmed the crit.
I stand corrected, apologies.
Another couple possible suggestions for reducing the usefulness of a vorpal weapon:
1) Give the victim of a vorpal attack a Fortitude save. I'd make it either a flat DC of 20-25, or make the DC equal to 10 + 1/2 BAB + Str modifier (or dex if a finesse weapon). Making the DC a function of BAB instead of level makes it more effective in the hands of the warrior types.
2) Remember that it doesn't matter if some creatures are beheaded. Creatures without heads such as oozes are immune, constructs don't need a head to function, incorporeal critters should also be immune, and I'd say Undead shouldn't have much to worry about either.
Githyanki Incursion campaign. The PCs, along with 200 or so NPCs, cohorts, and various allies, assault the githyanki capital, drawing Vlaakith's attention away from the team of wizards and clerics infiltrating the Palace of Whispers. The PC epic barbarian (Rusk) wielded a +3 keen vorpal great axe. Amidst the githyanki corpses, shattered iron golems, and hunks of nightmare cavalry left in his wake, Rusk was beset upon by a balor, which was gated in by Vlaakith herself. With one swipe and a narutal 20, the balor was beheaded. The resulting explosion left Rusk battered, but by no means beaten. It was quite a spectical. The stuff of legend.
Just be careful that your PCs have such powerful weapons at the right level. Even if Rusk hadn't rolled that 20, he would have easily wasted the pit fiend on his first full round attack. Of course, if I had rolled a 20, Rusk might have been in trouble, considering the fact that the balor also had a vorpal sword. Consider the PC wizard in the group. He wields a staff of the magi. Does he ever use it? Very rarely, and then only to use knock or detect magic.
If I give a character a powerful item I somtimes use this to make sure he plays his character right.
I use a warning theft. Usually the PC's wake up to find some low level theif rummaging through there stuff (the poor NPC has no clue what he's dealing with) and darts off. Most likely the Pc's are able to stop him from escaping, they get back whatever crap he tried to take, but what this does is show the PC's that if an absolute nobody can get this close to ripping us off imagine what someone with Actuall skill could do? If they work to protect their stuff and put some thought and resources into security then I'll generally send an equal challenge sneak in and see how well the PC's plans work against mine. If the sit on their asses and refuse to consider that people will "kill without hesitation" to obtain the riches they contro then that sneak is likley to turn into an assassin (i dunno say 3 or 4 lvls higher that the EPL) and the party will wake up (those that do wake up, if any) wishing that being robbed blind was the worst of it.
Also death effects are actually pretty common at high lvl's ( at least in the lvl's you would typically introduce a weapon like this). Most magic users have multiple ways of dispatching enemies instantly so stacked up to that it seems reasonable to allow a less than 5% chance (less because he may not confirm it) of and instant kill on a succesful hit.
Agreed...they should be rare...and carefully planned out in terms of specs...but if yer players do happen to come upon one...
"Vorpal is a word coined by Lewis Carroll for the poem 'Jabberwocky,' used first in the line 'He took his vorpal sword in hand' and 'One, two! One, two! And through and through The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! He left it dead, and with its head He went galumphing back.'
It is commonly assumed to mean 'deadly' or 'sharp' (or 'capable of beheading,' since the hero brings the dead Jabberwock's head home in triumph), and has been used this way in a number of role-playing games and similar works."
Pasted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorpal
A vorpal weapon doesn't strictly mean "Hacking the Head Off"...it can refer to something that is particularly deadly or sharp (still capable of hacking something off mebbe...heh)...and, it can always have a backlash effect or some sort of "vice" that accompanies it's major use.
Example: A Paladin in my campaign came upon one (spare the details). The weapon was not opposed to the Paladin's touch...but it did have issues with the Paladin's "righteousness." As such, it never let the Paladin control the "vorpal" ability. This caused the Paladin problems in that he would never know when the ability would come into play. He eventually took the weapon to his Priest who stored it away from those who would misuse it. (Made for an excellent hook by the way.)
Here's the famed poem from whence the term came...
"'Jabberwocky' or 'ykcowrebbaJ' is a poem (of nonsense verse) found in Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There by Lewis Carroll. It is generally considered to be one of the greatest nonsense poems written in the English language."
"'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
'Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!'
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought--
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
'And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe."
Stillfoxx
"Live or die, you decide..."
Just a quick question...anyone out there hate vorpal weapons as much as i do (when Dming that is)? I find them totally unbalancing...
Not me. They cost 72,000 minimum, indicating that they're only appropriate finds for higher-level characters.
Yes, they're powerful. In my campaign you can never find one for purchase -- as far as I'm concerned, they're minor artifacts (it takes an 18th level character to make one, so the creation of a vorpal weapon is a rare, big deal). They only enter the campaign when and where I decide -- I feel this way about any weapon with that is equivalent to +6 or higher.
Regards,
Jack
Fortification: This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
Vorpal: This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads.
As you can see fortification works against vorpal attacks because you have to roll to confirm a critical hit and the protection on the armor negates the critical with normal damage rolled instead.
It seems logical because you need at least limited wish to craft such armor which protect "vital areas".
As you can see fortification works against vorpal attacks because you have to roll to confirm a critical hit and the protection on the armor negates the critical with normal damage rolled instead.
If fortification works against vorpal attacks because it makes you immune to the extra damage from critical hits, why does the vorpal ability description talk about headless undead and golems--who also are immune to extra damage from critical hits?
Sorry, but the rules you quote actually suggest the opposite conclusion: immunity to critical hits does not, by itself, make one immune to vorpal attacks.
As you can see fortification works against vorpal attacks because you have to roll to confirm a critical hit and the protection on the armor negates the critical with normal damage rolled instead.If fortification works against vorpal attacks because it makes you immune to the extra damage from critical hits, why does the vorpal ability description talk about headless undead and golems--who also are immune to extra damage from critical hits?
This seems to boil down to how strictly you interpret and enforce the rules. It would appear from the vorpal description that anything with discernable anatomy can have its head cut off, even if it is immune to the critical threat required for vorpal to work. If you wanted your super villain to survive a vorpal attack you might create a house rule for armour that negates the vorpal. Otherwise I feel convinced that a vorpal sword is the worst enemy of any villain with a discernable head.
Yes, I agree that it's not very clear but I think I would rule it that way because the text says that "it negates the critical hit" so no confirmation and no decapitation and also because it seems a good but expensive protection against this kind of weapon, it seems balanced.
Meh, to keep my players from being overly stupid I set the death from massive damage at 20 points instead of 50, so a vorpal weapon doesn't really make much of a difference.
The key is to remember that the bad guys can do anything the PCs can do, except the villain usually has better resources and no objections to fighting dirty.
Its not "ha ha I totally nerfed you." Thieves exist in real life, they exist in fiction, and at the end of the day thats basically what all PCs are kill things take their stuff. To think they themselves wouldn't be targets of interest once they have desireable equipment is a sign that the world is not thought through, as is the intervention of gods in the management of equipment lists. In my opinion deus ex machina should be rarer by far than the vorpal weapon in question.Possession of any powerful item, wealth of any sort, demands that the possessor be able to defend it if they mean to keep it.
Just my opinion.
Oh I agree that Deus ex machina is terrible but if your swiping your players prized possession because of play balance I think its a better option then just making off with their loot. When you take that sword you are almost certianly going to have a very angry player on your hands. His character might be pissed too but the player is going to be angry and probably frustrated. Dues ex Machina deals with your players anger and frustration and helps resolves it.
The DM sitting back and imperously claiming hey theives exist and of course they would swipe your best loot is not going to deal with your players anger. It might as well be 'ha ha I totally nerfed you.'
A DM who does this usually better have a really good set of adventures ready in which the players get the sword back. Having it so the sword was sold within the hour to a ship headed for some unknown part of Kura-Tur is a good way of pissing your players off. Unless you want your players going home at the end of the night angry and frustrated and being honestly able to say that they did not have a good time then this is to be avoided. Litterly having them die is often a better option then taking their best stuff, stealing their levels or nerfing their stats. Though I'm not saying one should go out and kill the character - just that players tend to actually be more forgiving of having their characters killed then having them nerfed unless that nerfing is the theme of the resulting story and the centre of the next few adventures.
So yes - the integrity of the world is important. But most of the time having teh game be fun for your players is more imprortant. If Deus Ex Machina seems particularly bad then maybe talk with the player and decide that they never had the sword or they decide to sell it or whatever.
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Hey all,
Just a quick question...anyone out there hate vorpal weapons as much as i do (when Dming that is)?
I find them totally unbalancing (lopping a guy's head off when he still has over 100 hit points...especially since the game doesn't have called shot mechanics in it!!).
I have never felt that it wasn't unbalancing, but I never liked them. I was in a campaign where the DM gave one of the characters a vorpal blade. He was starting out a new campaign/world, spent a whole lot of time creating the major bad guy who had a whole lot of ways to escape, the fighter got one hit (natural 20) and the bad guy's head was off. He was so mad. Mostly because he spent so much time on background and character creation just to have his character die really quick.
I typically don't allow them in my games. I might be talked into allowing them in higher level (think epic) games, but definitely not lower or mid level games. My personal feeling is "would you want your head to fall off because the bad guys got in a lucky roll if you were a player?" If I feel that the players wouldn't like something done to them, I typically don't allow it (within reason -- I know that they would say that they wouldn't want a fireball cast on them either). I allow and use instant death effects on a very limited basis. But even things like "Slay Living", "Destruction", etc. allow the character a saving throw (Power Word kill being an exception but it has a HP limit to help offset). With vorpal weapons, the person that it is being done to doesn't get any kind of second chance/saving throw. Granted, it shouldn't happen very often, but my experience has been if you give out this kind of weapon, you will notice just how often a 20 is rolled naturally.
As for me, I know that I would be really upset if I was a player and I literally lost my head for no reason other than the DM had a lucky roll. Therefore, if I would not want the DM to have it, then the PCs shouldn't be able to have one either. Balanced or Unbalanced doesn't matter. Basically, if you feel that the good guys should be allowed access to them, the bad guys need to have access to them.
My quick thoughts.
Bill
I have never felt that it wasn't unbalancing, but I never liked them. I was in a campaign where the DM gave one of the characters a vorpal blade. He was starting out a new campaign/world, spent a whole lot of time creating the major bad guy who had a whole lot of ways to escape, the fighter got one hit (natural 20) and the bad guy's head was off. He was so mad. Mostly because he spent so much time on background and character creation just to have his character die really quick.I typically don't allow them in my games. I might be talked into allowing them in higher level (think epic) games, but definitely not lower or mid level games. My personal feeling is "would you want your head to fall off because the bad guys got in a lucky roll if you were a player?" If I feel that the players wouldn't like something done to them, I typically don't allow it (within reason -- I know that they would say that they wouldn't want a fireball cast on them either). I allow and use instant death effects on a very limited basis. But even things like "Slay Living", "Destruction", etc. allow the character a saving throw (Power Word kill being an exception but it has a HP limit to help offset). With vorpal weapons, the person that it is being done to doesn't get any kind of second chance/saving throw. Granted, it shouldn't happen very often, but my experience has been if you give out this kind of weapon, you will notice just how often a 20 is rolled naturally.
As for me, I know that I would be really upset if I was a player and I literally lost my head for no reason other than the DM had a lucky roll. Therefore, if I would not want the DM to have it, then the PCs shouldn't be able to have one either....
I think you make some good points here. In dealing with this I'd think that the style of the campaign would be a major determining factor. If the players are meant to come into conflict with the main villian (or important lackys) repeatedly then this thing is a disaster waiting to happen. For me I'd not worry about it to much since I don't have a campaign were there is a re-occuring big bad guy. I think it would be safe in the Age of Worms for teh same reason. Basically speaking you only seem to battle a bad guy once (unless you run away and come back later) and each segement is pretty much self contained. Even here though I guess the DM does have to deal with the fact that every so often a fight that was going to be a tough one for the players is thrown out of wack by a couple of lucky rolls. If that does not bother you then its all fine - if it does then avoid the weapon. Its so bloody expencive that this would not normally come up in anycase.
On that note it dawns on me one could be a really evil DM and drop in a coupel of swords +1 Great Sword Vorpal Weapon and a +5 Flaming Dragon Slayer or some such. Watch the player agonize over which sword he wants.