Chriton227 |
After all the good things I heard about the Shackled City AP, I started AoW with very high hopes. I don't have a lot of prep time, so the APs struck me as a great idea - a full campaign arc and supporting material, packaged up and ready for use.
That was a few months ago. My AoW campaign is now on the verge of complete collapse. We normally play every other week, but we have cancelled the last 3 sessions and to be honest I don't know if I want to run another session of AoW.
SPOILER ALERT
The progress so far: Party of 4 (bard, rogue, warlock, cleric) enter the Whispering Cairn. Near TPK at the Wolf encounter. Rapid identification of the death trap. One of the players commented "who wrote this, Gary Gygax?" Another player is introduced (fighter) bringing the party up to 5. Plot continues as expected until they need to get info from Kullen and crew, at which point another near TPK occurs (should have been a TPK, but I was feeling nice). Party eventually gets to Filge's, ambush him and take him down before his first action. Plot continues as expected to the Wind Warriors fight, which the party enters at 2nd level (I don't know how there is an expectation of being 3rd with the number of easily ignored encounters prior). The Wind Warriors are defeated, but it was another almost TPK.
At this point the party is obviously not enjoying themselves. The Wind Warrior fight was excessive for them, even with me not playing the WWs to their potential. Frequent complaints are heard regarding the difficulty level of the skill checks, encounters, etc.
They decided to continue, so they talked to Allustan and then Smenk. Even having them talk to Smenk at this point felt incredibly contrived, especially after he has been built up in the background materials as thoroughly reprehensible and the party found indication of his involvement with Filge. The players decide to go along with the hook, and a plot is hatched to get them into the mine. They are going to go in posed as some of Smenk's men making a supply delivery with assistance from one of Smenk's men. The players are dumbfounded when they come to the boarded up passage, through which deliveries are apparently frequently made as there is no good source of food and water in the complex. The boards are removed, the party is allowed to pass.
The party takes the elevator down and defeats the tieflings, but not in time to stop them from knocking on the door. They enter the Temple of Hextor, and the fight begins. The commoners are involved, the tiefling guards are notified, the dire boar is released, and yet another almost TPK ensues. The cleric is dead (driven from full to -12 in two hits from the dire boar), the fighter and bard are unconscious and bleeding, the rogue is down to 5 hp and fleeing, and the warlock is single-handedly fighting the dire boar, one remaining guard, and 2 commoners, who have alerted the rest of the complex. The rogue returns and manages to get a potion into the bard, who then heals the fighter while the rogue and warlock finish the fight. Now they are left with the remainder of the temple at full alert, one party member dead, almost out of spells, and almost out of hps. They have no place to rest, are facing a prepared force, and are now of the opinion that the place is a death trap. Bringing in a replacement for the cleric at this point is going to be tough too.
I'm getting frustrated with it. I feel like I have to read through everything as an editor to catch the mistakes, omissions, and plot holes littered throughout the adventures. Things like erroneous room numbers, missing creature numbers, incorrect stat blocks, etc. really should have been caught in the playtesting and editing. At the very least, there should be a single location to download the official errata for the various adventures (the most recent official errata posted is for issue 118). In the time it is taking me to go through and try to fix everything, I could have written my own adventures. Because of the number of mistakes I've found, I now feel the need to recalculate and verify each stat block, lest one of the players catches a mistake during play.
There is no consistent style so far between the adventures, making them feel disjointed. It feels very much like they were written completely independently from just the brief plot outlines, resulting in hooks being developed in one adventure only to be completely ignored in the next and NPCs being portrayed differently between adventures.
I was hoping that the adventures would get better. I looked at Blackwall, and the first thing I noticed is that there is a missing map, unless you count the poster-size map as the map, in which case the location numbers were omitted from the map.
So far there has been nothing to give the players or characters any desire to continue on the plot-line. They don't trust the mine managers (probably rightfully so), they don't trust Allustan (they are convinced that he is secretly helping to keep his corrupt brother in control of the town), they have a diadem that they know virtually nothing about despite having identified it (because the DM knows virtually nothing about it), and the only plot hooks they have shown even a vague interest in are the Rod of Seven Parts hooks that have nothing to do the next few adventures and are really not at all connected to the real plot line.
So, to those of you who have finished 3FoE and played any of the following adventures, does it get any better, or is this as good as it gets?
Modera |
See, from what it seems, you really shouldn't be running a game you and the players aren't having fun with.
I've gone through the aforementioned adventures, and found the connections pretty decent for low levels. But that's me, and I like running AoW and my players enjoy it. So, if you don't like it at the beginning, then you won't like it later.
On another note, my players were constantly questioning if Allustan was trying to get them killed and what not. This is mostly due to the fact that's they're paranoid.
Lady Aurora |
I hear what you're saying but, at the same time, I'm a bit taken aback. Your observations and opinions are about as opposite as mine as possible. I love the AoW adventure path (so much so that I took a second look at the Shackled City AP after failing to develop an interest in it on several previous attempts).
I find most of the adventure hooks in ANY published adventures to be weak; AoW is fairly better than most or equal (certainly not worst, IMO). I believe the plot flows well (with enough connections to follow but not so obvious players feel "lead by the nose"). I like the more subtle connections between modules and their different writing/presentation style. I'm having a great time with the path and so are my players (despite a death or two).
As far as errors and whatnot, we don't play 3.5 so those aren't a real issue for me. Personally, I find DMs way too anal about such minutia as whether such and such NPC/Monster should have such and such feat or damage or treasure, whatever. If your players are picking up on such nonsense then they obviously aren't having much fun in the game. The game should run like a good action movie or an epic tale without too much concern for minor details. If you find the cinemagraphic errors in your favorite movie that's one thing (like...wasn't his shirt buttoned in that last scene and now it's not) but you shouldn't notice it the very first time or the movie's not that good to begin with!
Bottom line - I agree with Modera. If you and yours aren't having fun now then it's unlikely your satisfaction level will rise any time soon. It sounds to me like the whole style and flavor of the path just isn't appealing to you. There are other adventures to run.
If it isn't fun, what's the point?
I’ve Got Reach |
I’m going to join you in the minority in agreeing with you that there are areas where the campaign could improve, but you do a good job in identifying these areas so I won’t elaborate.
However, there is an adage that speaks true here: You get out of it what you put into it. I have put more than my fair share of work into managing the campaign, the word “managing” being key. It’s up to me as the DM to add additional elements that personalize the story to my characters; I can’t run it totally as is without having my PCs realize that it was written for every subscriber and loyal magazine buyer out there. In fact, in our AoW campaign, I would have to say 25% of the content I have ran (mostly role-play oriented) do not come from the magazine – it is stuff I have personalize based on who they are and the actions they take.
“Mr. Mona, I was wondering if every time an AoW campaign refers to “PC’s”, they instead say “Dirty Faced Killers.” That probably won’t happen.
Two things:
1) I would assume that this is as good as it gets. If you elect not to do the dirty work in pre-reading the adventure with your player’s tendencies and skill level in mind, then
2) You might want to fashion your own modules and avoid the dissatisfying gaming experiences.
Chriton227 |
1) I would assume that this is as good as it gets. If you elect not to do the dirty work in pre-reading the adventure with your player’s tendencies and skill level in mind, then
2) You might want to fashion your own modules and avoid the dissatisfying gaming experiences.
I actually do read the adventure through several times (usually 4-5 times) before running it, and I tend to read one adventure ahead. I do try to keep the player's tendencies and character abilities in mind, and I try to adjust to fit, however when my notes on adjustments are longer than the adventure, there is a problem. We switched from weekly to every other week precisely because of time commitments; I did not feel that I had adequate prep time when playing weekly.
I've been a reader of Dungeon and Dragon magazines for nearly 20 years, and I have run more adventures from the pages of Dungeon than I care to count. Most of the biggest irritations to me in the AP are the errors and omissions more than the plot issues. I would have much less issue with this if the author/publisher would take responsibility for the technical issues and issue erratas, but they haven't.
I expect to have to make changes to an adventure to fit my personal campaign, however with the AoW AP, I am attempting to run their campaign. I have not made any changes to the AP to customize it, I am using it as written. I should not need to make significant changes to make one adventure in the AP fit with the next when the adventures are being touted as a cohesive path. To me, in the ideal AP the characters would not be aware of switching from one adventure to the next, they should flow together naturally. I think this is a failing of farming the adventure writing out to a variety of authors.
I am actually discussing with my players where they want to go with the game, and it looks like the AoW will be abandoned by the group. I suspect my expectations for the AP were too high, so when I came across elements that were a little rough, instead of feeling just a little irritated I felt betrayed, as if the authors did not put in the commitment to quality that I have come to expect from Dungeon.
Asberdies Lives |
I'm with you on this. I've read the AoW adventures as they arrive, and I'm underimpressed with the hooks (Guess what guys, it's time to go yet another another town and ask another scholar to do RESEARCH!!). The adventures themselves aren't grabbing me either, unlike the Shackled City path.
I've enjoyed reading the two Whispering Cairn adventures, but it's like every single room has a pretty tough encounter. I'm from the Gygax camp. My players hate empty rooms. They've literally spent a month of Sundays clearing out the Caves of Chaos and all three lairs in Against the Giants. But the AoW encounters seem particularly tough and rampant.
No offense to Mona. I love the kid and he's doing a great job with the magazine, but I'm not interested in running such a difficult, disjointed campaign. I'd rather get magic missiled. In the BALLS.
farewell2kings |
I'd rather get magic missiled. In the BALLS.
Hmmm.....I haven't read AoW, because I'm hoping a friend of mine will run it as DM and give me a break, but, ugly mental picture aside about the magic missile "touch" attack--here's what I do with adventures that I'm not happy with.
I strip 'em--rework them, change NPC's, change plot hooks, etc. I take the encounters I like from the adventure and drop them into my own dungeon or my own adventure. I often "speed" up an adventure by combining a bunch of less exciting encounters and replacing them with a different one.
My players don't like long-drawn out exploration adventures, so I use "fast forwards" quite a bit, which are easier to run in 3.5 when you can make a set of Search/Spot/Listen rolls and quickly put them into the next encounter while glossing over some less exciting areas.
If the encounters are too tough and the plot is not to your liking--change them? Instead of all the bad guys being in one dungeon--spread 'em out over a wilderness area so the PC's can rest between encouters. I almost never run an adventure exactly as written, even in the SCAP.
So, if it's so bad, couldn't you just do that and rework it into an AoW of your own liking? Or would that be take like placing your "items" between a sledge hammer and a dwarven forge :)
Robert Trifts |
Different strokes.
In 27 years of gaming - I haven't been enjoying anything this much in terms of adventures. Never - and it's not even close.
So - my vote is for Erik to take it in stride and recognize that you can't please all of the people all of the time.
Jeremy Walker Contributor |
Most of the biggest irritations to me in the AP are the errors and omissions more than the plot issues. I would have much less issue with this if the author/publisher would take responsibility for the technical issues and issue erratas, but they haven't.
Speaking as an editor, it is our responsibility to minimize (and eliminate, if possible) the mistakes that get published in the magazine. If there is an error I have no problem taking full responsibility for it. (I don't want to speak for my fellow editors but I am sure they would agree with me.)
Errata is a trickier issue. We would love to be able it issue errata for the adventures, but there are two large stumbling blocks.
First (and most important), it is difficult for us to find time to revisit and work on earlier issues of the magazine. We just don't have the time, and our unfulfilled "to do" list has many other more important things on it. Unless it is a major problem that is easily fixed (like the missing text for 130, for example), we just don't have the time. The second problem is that there is really no good place for us to put the errata. As a rule, the web enhancements come out too soon after the release of the magazine to contain errata for it (since we usually don't know what needs fixing at that point). Maybe someday, the resources will be available for us to maintain an index for each adventure in each magazine, that includes things like errata and additions. But for now, that day remains far off.
All of that being said, I encourage you to stick with the adventure path. If your biggest problems thus far have been the mistakes made with the stat blocks and encounter descriptions, the consensus around here is that "Three Faces of Evil" represented a low point in the editing of the Adventure Path, and that things improved significantly after that. Seeing the number of mistakes that slipped through on that issue certainly was a wake-up call for me personally. In that sense, I think you will find that the adventures do improve as you go along, and there should be fewer stat errors in the later installments. Only time will tell of course.
Crust |
Much of what you're complaining about has nothing to do with the module. It's expected that DMs will change things around to suit the campaign, the characters, and the players' tastes. Plot hooks, NPCs, monsters, dungeon maps, treasure, all of these things should be altered by the DM to suit the needs of the game. Come on. You can't blame a failed campaign on the modules. You also can't expect your players to enjoy a module if it's run by-the-book verbatim.
Also, if your players are not of sufficient level to comfortably push through a module, it's up to the DM (you) to run side quests to make sure your group is ready. I'm at a loss here. Modules are guides, not blueprints.
bshugg |
Fetch me my +3 Trollbane blade!
I'm not suprised that someone would complain about the AoW campaign, but I am suprised that they would do so in such a long and well written post.
I agree that some areas of the AoW need a bit more explaining like what the special items are for, or rooms that are missing numbers, but they are MINOR issues. All the adventures so far have been creative and had some really, really, REALLY cool encounters, NPC's and experiences to make for a stellar campaign. All the DM needs to add is some flavor to tie up the loose ends and some play balance. The two things that the original poster seems to be having trouble with.
Do your players really complain if something has too many feats, or doesn't have its AC or attack calculated correctly? If they do then they are WAY to familiar with your monsters and you need to shake things up a bit. They should know much more than what the monster looks like, what its doing now (like eating their face) and how much damage/effect is has. This also ties in nicely to play balance.
If your party is getting mauled, then soften the encounters! Its not hard at all to do. Just because a room lists 2 tieflings, or 8 skeletons or a Dire Board, doesn't mean that you HAVE to run it as such. The writers design encounters based on a generic rule of thumb. Its impossible for them to always get the challenge right for each party. For example 4 3rd level Archers may be a horrible match up for your group that lacks ranged attacks, but simple for one with 2 mages and 2 rangers. Add in the fact that theres multiple encounters strung in a row and they will never get it right. Thats what you (the DM) are for. To challange your party yet keep it fun. A TPK now and then can happen, but if your getting one almost every week your being too rough. I don't blame the party for get tired of it. Unfortunatly they won't be any happier with other adventures if you don't change your ways. Its not just the AoW thats the problem. Even die rolls will have a factor. Rolling poorly on init, or attacks in one encounter will waste resources for later ones. Theres no way to balance it all.
Finally, the lack of detail can be taken as a hinderance or as a help. Its up to you as the DM to decide. WIth all the structure, maps, NPC's, Names, encounters, traps, and treasure already preplaced, you have very little left that needs to be filled out. Just enough to make the campaign personal for you and your players. Not enough detail on the Diadem from the Wind Tomb? Take 15 seconds and wing it. Leave its use a mystery and your players will be more intregued than if you come out and say "Its a +2 Wisdom booster, that you may need later" In some areas if they put in more structure it would actually make things tougher for a lot of DM's. They would have to remove NPC's, locations, and entire plot lines that don't mesh with the world they invision. Instead Dungeon builds you a house, and lets you pick the interior colors and carpeting.
Chriton227 |
Errata is a trickier issue. We would love to be able it issue errata for the adventures, but there are two large stumbling blocks.
First (and most important), it is difficult for us to find time to revisit and work on earlier issues of the magazine. We just don't have the time, and our unfulfilled "to do" list has many other more important things on it. Unless it is a major problem that is easily fixed (like the missing text for 130, for example), we just don't have the time. The second problem is that there is really no good place for us to put the errata. As a rule, the web enhancements come out too soon after the release of the magazine to contain errata for it (since we usually don't know what needs fixing at that point). Maybe someday, the resources will be available for us to maintain an index for each adventure in each magazine, that includes things like errata and additions. But for now, that day remains far off.
I'll have to say that that answer surprises me. Paizo has a link on their site specifically for errata (http://paizo.com/dungeon/resources/errata), which seems to me to be the logical place to put it. I may be alone in this, but personally I would have rather had erratas than stat blocks for scores of people in town, especially since there are very few of them where full stat blocks will ever be useful. The errata certainly would have saved me more time in my preparations than what the majority of the Overload did. To me, non-combat NPC stats are easy to wing on the fly. Even just a compilation of the errata presented by the readers on the boards and saved as a PDF would be better than nothing, and would take a minimum amount of time.
It appears that there has been a lot of time spent fleshing out the setting, but the focus seems off. There are lots of details about townsfolk, but WC specifically give the party a base outside of town to minimize the time they spend there, and 3FoE seems to encourage the party to do it in one trip. Blackwall then sends them away from the town entirely. There was a full article on fixing up the abandoned mine house, but then the party doesn't spend much time in Diamond Lake after fixing it up. There was an article detailing all kinds of mine equipment, but then the trip through the mines was glossed over in 3FoE.
Farewell2Kings - If I had the time, that is what I would do, but it seems to me that by the time you read through the adventure, figure out what to keep and what to pitch, and rebuild effectively a new adventure around the remains, you have spent more time than just building a new adventure from scratch.
Crust - The primary official RPGA campaign (Living Greyhawk) does expect the adventures to be run unmodified, and lots of players and DMs around the globe seem to enjoy it just fine. As I said before, I fully expect to have to do a lot of customizations for Dungeon adventures I integrate into my personally developed campaigns, but AoW _IS_ the campaign. I don't expect to have to do a lot of customization to an adventure to make it fit with the campaign it was specifically designed for.
I chose the AP specifically because I am so time limited. I'm married, have two young children, work a full-time job (salary, so often over 40/wk), commute an hour each way to work, and am on-call about 1/4 of the time. I expected something that was billed as "a complete Dungeons & Dragons campaign that will take your adventurers from the down-and-dirty days of 1st level to the heights of power at 20th" (Eric Mona, Dungeon 124, p.10) to be just that - a complete campaign - not a campaign that needs filler adventures, not a framework from which I can build a campaign, not a guide with which to write my own adventures - but a complete campaign.
I normally assume that an adventure is build with a typical party (Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard) in mind. The party I'm running for is not far off typical, is of the recommended levels, and if anything is over strength (Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Warlock/Bard), so I did not expect much need for adjustments due to party composition. There is only so much customization I can do in the way of hooks and motivations, since I do not have access to the upcoming adventures. Because of this, I have to rely on the adventure authors for the hooks and tie-ins to the future adventures.
The players are all very experienced and typically have exceptionally good tactics. I frequently get frustrated because of exactly how difficult it is to challenge them (they took out the Terrible Iron Golem in Maure Castle in 2 rounds flat without taking any damage) and I usually have trouble challenging them. It really took me by surprise that they were having so much trouble.
I found the Diadem frustrating because it just had the bare basics, and kept the DM as much in the dark as the players. It mentions that it has additional properties that will become apparent sometime in the future, but no indication of how long they will have to wait to find out, or even the strength/type of the magic aura. For me to try to fill in the details for this introduces the possibility of completely conflicting with significant plot elements of the future adventures. Leaving it a mystery meant telling the bard that his identify spell didn't reveal all magical properties contrary to what the spell description indicates, and that his 30+ bardic knowledge check didn't tell him anything he didn't already know. I admit that this is really a minor issue, but part of what is bothering me is the sheer quantity of minor issues.
The largest part is just how disjointed it feels. I don't expect it to be a perfect fit for all of my players or for my style. I expect it to at least be internally consistent, so that the players and I can develop reasonable expectations. There is a reason why you rarely see a series of novels where each novel is written by a different author, it is hard to maintain enough consistency. A campaign is in many ways like a series of novels.
I admit that most of my ranting is due to frustration with the campaign collapsing, especially after the high expectations I had. I'd like to think that 3FoE is the low point of the quality issues, but when I found something as significant as an entire missing map in Blackwall in the first two minutes skimming the article, it makes that hard to believe.
airwalkrr |
I haven't had any problem whatsoever with any of the issues you mentioned. I'm inclined to think therefore that you just don't like the style of the campaign, which is fine, it isn't for everyone. There are other fully-detailed campaigns out there for you to choose from (World's Largest Dungeon, Shackled City, Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil) if you don't like it.
I've read all the adventures up to the current issue and I haven't seen these problems myself. Concerning the typos, I don't count feats, skill points, and other details on bad guys because it doesn't really matter. My PCs aren't going to see the stat blocks to know something is wrong. I prefer to be concerned with whether the EL adequately reflects the challenge, which is easy to adjust on the fly ("I think this monster is really more of a CR 5 than a CR 4" or "I think 8 skeletons is too many, I'll cut it back to 4"). The story is more important than having a correct stat block.
To start with, I gave each player a xerox of most of the info from 124 on Diamond Lake (I blacked-out spoilers) and they came up with character concepts that fit the setting. This did not take a lot of time to do. They already loathed Smenk and were confused when he approached them about entering the mine. I cackled my DM laugh; the fools, Smenk is just using them by playing the innocent fool and they bought it. They were TPKed in 3FOE and loved every minute of it because it was an exciting encounter. They created new characters who came into Diamond Lake and heard of the disappearance of other heroes. Being adventurers themselves they investigated and finished off the mine. Dourstone and Smenk were arrested in the aftermath. Then Allustan approached the heroes about continuing the investigation of these green worms, to which they readily accepted. They escorted Allustan to Blackwall Keep and saved them while Allustan retreated for reinforcements. They negotiated a deal with the lizardfolk and returned. Now Allustan and Marzena have exhausted their leads and Allustan has sent them to Eligos to see if they can learn more. No plot holes. No glaring continuity errors. Everything done exactly like the module was written. Maybe my PCs are just more forgiving.
wampuscat43 |
It seems to me that your problems have more to do with the lethality of D&D than this adventure itself. I just ran the first session of 3FoE, and was prepared for it from reading some of the complaints on these boards. My PC's realized this whole adventure is very dangerous, and spent nearly every gp they had crafting a wand of cure light wounds. This makes all the difference in 3FoE.
I also had Smenk force an NPC on the party (ie: meatshield). The players actually like this guy, and like him even more now since he took the brunt of the dire boar attack. ("BBQ for everybody!")
We had 3 character deaths in the WC, one a rather dumb move against the owlbear, and two from, of all things, the bugbear zombie of Filge's. The party easily defeated the underwater ghoul, Kullen, the wind warriors, the various traps (something I didn't notice at first - that elevator trap only does 2d6 damage - see the stats - it's not a Gygax 'immediate death').
My point is, sure there are errors, and Paizo's staff addressed this issue. But where else will you find resources like what you have here, and at sites like http://therpgenius.com/Default.aspx?alias=therpgenius.com/ageofworms ? I have virtually no time to prepare each week, either, so I have to learn to be light on my feet. To answer your question, I not only believe it will get better - it's very good now.
Hangfire |
My party just finished the Champion's Games in the AP (with Greyhawk now becoming a city of undead - the party has yet to actually escape the city) and I have to agree with much that Chriton227 has said. I picked this campaign for the very reasone Chriton did - no time to do lots of prep. I mean that's what Dungeon is for, right. I soon found that I was spending a lot of time, usually most of Saturday and Sunday, fixing the campaign so that it made sense and didn't wipe out the party. What I found even tougher is that all the errors in the adventure aren't always appearent on a fist, second, or even third read through. It wasn't until I was running the thing that some of the errors became glaring, and of course then it's scrample time. I will say, however, that my party is having a great time - some of them have said this is one of the best camapigns they have played in years. So I think the extra work paid off. The downside is that we're going to take a break from this campaign for a spell while I get a couple of issues ahead - there really is too much work to do unless you're a couple of issues ahead of the game. And the DM needed a break. My only advice for you Chriton227 is to either put in the work (even though you didn't think you were going to have to) or call the thing dead and move on.
Chriton227 |
First off, I'd like to apologize a bit for my tone in the previous messages. Lack of sleep plus work stress makes for a grumpy GM. I hadn't intended to come across quite as ranty as I did, and I didn't catch the tone until I reread things this morning.
I've not had issues with the lethality of D&D in general, although we do tend to start our normal campaigns at third level just to reduce the amount of time we spend rolling new characters at the early levels where a single lucky die roll from almost any opponent can kill a character. As I've said in a previous post, this player group is usually difficult to challenge; in the mid levels (8-14) I have to throw encounters 2-4 levels above the party for there to be any risk, so in general I don't feel that D&D is a particularly lethal system. In my previous campaigns (most to level 14-18), I don't recall ever having more than a handful (<5) character deaths over the entire course of the campaign.
My games lean toward higher power, but a lot of this comes fom good tactics and conservation of resources by the players (still use 4d6-lowest stats, allow a reroll on hp rolls but the second roll stands, fairly open with supplemental material). I really didn't expect the current game to have a lethality problem, especially since we are trying a new stat rolling method (guarantees an average stat of 13, minimum 7, slight possibility of extraordinary stats, I can provide details if anyone is interested) that ended up with a Str 20 human fighter, and I allowed the Greyhawk regional feats so the Warlock took Troll-Blooded. If we continue, I will add in the Action Points rules from Unearthed Arcana.
I've been discussing the future of the game a lot with my players. They seem ambivalent about continuing, and I am not sure quite how to progress if we continue. The biggest issues for me now are 1) where can the party rest to continue and 2) how to introduce the replacement for the dead character. I really dislike stopping in the middle of an adventure.
One thing that we are considering is shifting to a Living Greyhawk campaign. This would allow me to keep running without an excessive prep time commitment. My biggest hurdle here is that my players really dislike the point buy system, especially the 28pt system dictated by LG.
Other options I have proposed to the players include starting an Eberron campaign (it would be new to everyone), a back-to-basics (core books only, at least to start) Greyhawk campaign, or revisiting some of the classic modules that we have not had an opportunity to play (either under 2nd ed rules or by converting the adventures to 3.5).
I've thought about taking a break from a GM, but trying to play drives me crazy, and I really look forward to the outlet that gaming provides. I've been the primary GM for my gaming groups for well over a decade, so I have a very hard time playing without going stir crazy. I'm constantly seeing things that I would do differently, or trying to chime in to assist the DM when running, or getting distracted because managing a single character requires much less attention than GMing (at least when the focus is on another character).
To the Paizo staff - Have you considered asking on the boards for help in compiling the errata? I'm sure there are a lot of people that would be willing to chip in, especially if they could get definitive rulings on how to fix the more complicated issues. This would allow you to have the erratas available with a minimum of time and/or resource commitment from your staff.
Mactaka |
Yes.
My party also almost wiped at the first encounter..and the second...and the third...
but then I remembered they are 1st level. i like that the encounters are pretty challenging through what Ive read so far (up through episode 6) and will take some thinking and 'tricks' to defeat not just zerg.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
To the Paizo staff - Have you considered asking on the boards for help in compiling the errata? I'm sure there are a lot of people that would be willing to chip in, especially if they could get definitive rulings on how to fix the more complicated issues. This would allow you to have the erratas available with a minimum of time and/or resource commitment from your staff.
First of all, sorry the Age of Worms hasn't worked out for you. Not all campaigns can be winners, even if it's the same campaign that works 100% for someone else.
As for the issue of errata, the cold hard fact is that we don't have time to really track or focus on errata. "The Three Faces of Evil" has the most errors in it of all the "Age of Worms" adventures, and that was mostly because we just didn't have as much time to work on that issue due to Gen Con, Origins, and other convention-related things taking up time. Only when there's something REALLY messed up do we issue errata, such as is the case in issue #130's "Palace of Plenty," which was missing 3 encounter areas. Those missing encounters have been posted to a thread in this forum, and will be printed in #130's online supplement. Stat block errors, in the grand scheme of things, are relatively minor, given the fact that if we took a day or half-day to hunt down errata, the current issue of the magazine would suffer as a result.
As for asking for aid from our readers here on the boards to compile errata... we have thought of that and have done it, for the Shackled City hardcover. The Shackled City errata thread was a GREAT help in compiling those adventures, and if we do an Age of Worms hardcover, I'll be doing the same thing. Likewise, I think the idea of starting a thread of reader-submitted eratta is a great idea.
As for Zosiel's circlet; it's full powers are detailed in issue #129 in the adventure "A Gathering of Winds."
Patman |
It sounds like your players like to breeze through enconters...I, as a GM, like them to be challenging. My PC's walked therough 3FoE. They destroyed the Tieflings before they could make it to the door. Had 2 lucky crits on the dire boar. Then just kinda refused to enter the Battle Temple. They waited, and waited, and waited, while Theldrack sent some gaurds to harry them in. They crushed the gaurds, the went in after all the baddies spells went down...Still had 2 players down at the end, but the Hexblade witha Greatsword does a ton of damage.
Now then, Champions games saw 3 character deaths. Since they were in GH, I allowed them to pay for Ressurections. They sold off half their stuff, and have about 100 gp each. Having the Demon, right after the Apostle was brutal. Thay had befreinded Draconic Brood, which in my game were a pair of half dragons, a preist and a paladin of Bahumat, who aided them by raising the Wizard after him dying to the Demon. They won the final battle, but the Rogue died in the fighting. A well timed crit by a Flesh golem. Draconic Brood hinted that they are prophesized among Dragonkind, to perform a great service, so they will be recurring characters.
I love it, so far. It is difficult, yes, and the players really need plans...they cannot go with the old "A-Team" philosophy of "get 'em". If they do not plan, pick spells carefully, they will die. They have learned this...I cannot wait until they fight Ilthane..
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Lady Aurora |
I agree with you Chriton on at least one point - that business with Zosiel's Diadem. Even though the problem is resolved now, with the full description provided in "Gathering of Winds", that didn't really solve the problem for those of us starting the AP back when Whispering Cairn first saw print. I understand that the authors/whoever can't always provide full explanations to every future plot device but in this case they should've done something better than "PCs who keep this item will be happy they did when it becomes useful in a future installment". Like Chriton said, something as simple as a domain (sphere, whatever) and intensity level for magical detection purposes was necessary and should've been included. It was really confusing and unfair to wizards, clerics, bards, scholars and anyone/everyone else who showed interest in that piece. Worst of all, the error made the DM look incompetent and ill-prepared (in short, it made an a*s out of us). Such errors are irksome to say the least and a more contrite spirit in response to complaints about such errors would be appreciated.
All that said ... I still think Age of Worms rocks!
Xaene the Accursed |
I found the issue of Z's Diadem easy to deal with: from the hints dropped in the adventure I told the Wizard identifying the item that "It functions as a +2 circlet of Wisdom, and through your magic you know it has other powers, but it is curiously resistant to revealing them to you."
This drove them nuts, but they kept it nonetheless.
In circumstances like these I'd concentrate less on the black and white rules and more on what story flavor you can add when the characters cast divination spells and so on for these circumstances.
And as for getting better I'll put it like this:
For a party of 4, I'd be very very surprised if they got out of the first two adventures in the AoW without some deaths. The encounters are very tough, and if they don't have a fighter type in their midst they're toast.
Our group of 6 (1 paladin, 1 barbarian, 1 cleric, 1 bard, 1 rogue, 1 wizard) was hot and cold in the Whispering Cairn. The first few encoutners they slaughtered everything, then the tougher ones (Filge and his undead stooges, the Wind Warriors) they got messed up but came out on top.
Then in the 3 faces of evil the cleric got killed via a critical hit from the Dire Boar and everyone else was beat nearly to death - though they pulled out at the last moment by killing Theldric (last baddie standing) and ending the encounter. They spanked the Grimlocks (they'd hit 4th level at this point) and now get to face the Vecna group. Should be interesting and nasty, as my group is 4th level and there are six adventurers and not four.
What I did is soup up the baddies as such to make the encounters less of a walk through (the kenku as written are so much fodder):
Labyrinth Denizens CR 3
Kenku Sneak
Rogue 1/Scout 2
NE Medium humanoid (kenku)
Monster Manual III 87
Init: +9, Senses: Low-light vision; Listen +8, Spot +8
Languages: Common, Goblin, Kenku
AC: 19, touch 14, flat-footed 14
HP: 22
Fort +2, Ref +11, Will +1
Spd: 30 ft.
Base Atk: +1, Grp +1
Melee: Club +1 (1d6) and claw –4 (1d3)
Ranged: mwk light crossbow +6 (1d8/19-20)
Atk Options: Skirmish +1d6, Sneak Attack +1d6, great ally
Combat Gear: potion of shield of faith (+2) [drinks before combat], tanglefoot bag
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 18 (+4), Con 12 (+1), Int 13 (+1), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 10
SQ: Battle Fortitude, Mimicry, Trapfinding, Uncanny Dodge
Feats: Improved Initiative, Rapid Reload
Skills: Balance +11, Bluff +6, Hide +12, Listen +8, Move Silently +12, Search +6, Spot +8, Tumble +10
Possessions: Combat Gear, buckler, masterwork studded leather armor, club, masterwork light crossbow with 20 bolts, 5 sunrods, pouch with 7 gp.
Great Ally (Ex): When successfully aided on a skill check or attack roll by an ally, or when aiding another, a kenku applies a +3 bonus on its check or attack roll. Furthermore, a kenku gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls against opponents flanked by an enemy.
Mimicry (Ex): A kenku can perfectly mimic familiar sounds, voices, and accents. This ability does not enable the kenku to speak languages it can’t normally speak. To duplicate a specific individual’s voice, a kenku makes a Bluff check. A listener familiar with the voice being imitated must succeed on an opposed Sense Motive check to discern that the voice isn’t genuine.
Special: Kenku have a +2 racial bonus on Hide checks and Move Silently checks.
Kenku Boss CR 5
Rogue 2/Scout 3
NE Medium humanoid (kenku)
Monster Manual III 87
Init: +9, Senses: Low-light vision; Listen +5, Spot +5
Languages: Common, Goblin, Kenku
AC: 19, touch 14, flat-footed 14
HP: 40
Fort +3, Ref +12, Will +2
Spd: 40 ft.
Base Atk: +3, Grp +3
Melee: Rapier +8 (1d6) and claw –2 (1d3)
Ranged: mwk light crossbow +8 (1d8/19-20)
Atk Options: Skirmish +2d6, Sneak Attack +2d6, great ally, trackless step
Combat Gear: potion of shield of faith (+2) [drinks before combat], vial of alchemist’s fire
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 18 (+4), Con 14 (+2), Int 13 (+1), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 10
SQ: Battle Fortitude, Evasion, Fast Movement, Mimicry, Trapfinding, Uncanny Dodge
Feats: Improved Initiative, Uncanny Strike (can flank or catch any foe flat-footed), Weapon Finesse (rapier)
Skills: Balance +13, Bluff +8, Hide +13, Listen +11, Move Silently +12, Search +11, Spot +11, Tumble +13
Possessions: Combat Gear, buckler, masterwork studded leather armor, masterwork rapier, masterwork light crossbow with 20 bolts, elixir of hiding, elixir of vision, 5 sunrods, pouch with 7 gp.
Kenku Lieutenant CR 4
Sorcerer 4 (Draconic: Black)
NE Medium humanoid (kenku)
Monster Manual III 87
Init: +3, Senses: Low-light vision; Listen +6, Spot +3
Languages: Common, Kenku
AC: 21, touch 17, flat-footed 21
HP: 17
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +5
Spd: 30 ft.
Base Atk: +2, Grp +2
Ranged: Ranged Touch +6
Atk Options: Great ally
Combat Gear: Smokestick
Spells Prepared: (CL 5th)
2nd (4/day, DC 16) – Detect Thoughts, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray
1st (7/day, DC 15) – Identify, Grease, Mage Armor, Orb of Acid (lesser), Shield
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 16 (+3), Con 12 (+1), Int 10, Wis 12 (+1), Cha 18 (+4)
SQ: Mimicry, +1 bonus on all saves vs. paralysis or sleep effects.
Feats: Draconic Power, Eschew Materials, Point Blank Shot (+1 to hit, +1 to damage within 30 feet)
Skills: Concentration +8, Hide +12, Listen +5, Move Silently +8, Spot +4
Possessions: Combat Gear, 2 Quall’s Feather Tokens (bird), pouch with 32 gp.
Tactics:
Casts the following before combat:
- Mage Armor (duration: 5 hours) +4 armor bonus to AC
- Shield (duration: 5 minutes) +4 shield bonus to AC, Immunity to Magic Missiles
- Mirror Image: 3 Images (duration: 5 minutes)
Use the following combat tactics:
- Blast away with Scorching Ray
- Grease nasty fighter weapons
Fiendish Advanced Dire Weasels CR 4
NE Medium Magical Beast (Native Extraplanar)
Init: +4, Senses: Darkvision 60, Low-light vision, Scent; Listen +12, Spot +12
AC: 16, touch 14, flat-footed 12
HD: 6d8 (40 Hit Points)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Fort +5, Ref +10, Will +3
Spd: 40 ft.
Base Atk: +6, Grp +8
Attacks: Bite +11 melee (1d6+2 plus attach)
Abilities: Str 14 (+2), Dex 20 (+5), Con 10, Int 3, Wis 12 (+1), Cha 11
SQ: DR 5/magic, Cold and Fire Resistance 5, SR 11
Feats: Alertness, Stealthy, Weapon Finesse, Improved Weapon Finesse
Skills: Hide +16, Listen +12, Move Silently +16, Spot +12
Smite Good (Su): Once per day the weasel can make a normal melee attack deal an extra 6 hit points of damage against a good foe.
Attach (Ex): A dire weasel that hits with its bite attack latches onto the opponent’s body with its powerful jaws. An attached dire weasel loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and thus has an AC of 12.
An attached dire weasel can be struck with weapons or grappled itself. To remove an attached dire weasel through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the creature.
Blood Drain (Ex): A dire weasel drains blood for 1d4 points of Constitution damage each round it remains attached.
Acolytes of Vecna CR 3
Male human Wizard 3
NE Medium humanoid
Init: +6, Senses: Listen +3, Spot +5
Languages: Common, Draconic, Infernal, Kenku
AC: 19, touch 15, flat-footed 17
HP: 17
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +4
Spd: 30 ft.
Base Atk: +1, Grp +1
Ranged: Ranged Touch +4
Combat Gear: Potion of protection from arrows (10/magic), potion of fox’s cunning, potion of shield of faith (+3), potion of gaseous form, scroll of Scorching Ray (3rd), scroll of Web (1st).
Spells Prepared: (CL 2nd)
2nd (DC 15/17) – Blur, Scorching Ray
1st (DC 14/16) – Burning Hands, Color Spray, Mage Armor
Spellbook: 0 – all; 1st – Burning hands, cause fear, color spray, disguise self, expeditious retreat, mage armor minor image,
shocking grasp; 2nd – Blur, Scorching Ray
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 16 (+3), Wis 10, Cha 10
SQ: Rat Familiar (+2 bonus to Fortitude Saves, grants Alertness to master, can deliver touch spells)
Feats: Alertness, Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Scribe Scroll
Skills: Concentration +12, Hide +4, Listen +3, Spellcraft +9, Spot +4
Possessions: Combat Gear, spell component pouch, pouch with 48 gp.
Tactics:
Casts the following before combat:
- Mage Armor (duration: 3 hours) +4 armor bonus to AC
- Blur (duration: 3 minutes) foes suffer a 20% miss chance
- Potion of Protection from Arrows (duration: 3 hours) DR 10/magic vs. arrows
- Potion of Shield of Faith (duration: 9 minutes) +3 deflection bonus to AC
- Potion of Fox’s Cunning (duration: 3 minutes) +4 enhancement bonus to Int
Use the following combat tactics:
- Get the hell to room 25 (if possible)
- Blast away with Scorching Ray & Color Spray
- Repeat (mage’s switch)
The Faceless One CR 6
Male human Wizard 6
NE Medium humanoid
Init: +6, Senses: Low-light vision; Listen +4, Spot +5
Languages: Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Giant, Infernal, Kenku
AC: 24, touch 16, flat-footed 22
HP: 42 (58 with false life).
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +8
Spd: 30 ft.
Base Atk: +3, Grp +3
Ranged: Ranged Touch +5
Combat Gear: Scroll of Lightning Bolt (6th), Scroll of Summon Monster III (6th), Potion of shield of faith (+4), 4 potions of cure light wounds (1st)
Spells Prepared: (CL 6th)
3rd (DC 19, 3) - Fireball x2, Slow
2nd (DC 18, 5) – Blur, Scorching Ray
1st (DC 17, 5) – Burning Hands, Color Spray, Mage Armor
Spellbook: 0 – all; 1st – Chill Touch, Expeditious Retreat, Hold Portal, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield; 2nd – False Life, Flaming Sphere, Mirror Image, Touch of Idiocy, Web;
Wizard’s Staff: Cantrips, deliver touch spells, +1 enhancement bonus
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14 (+2), Con 16 (+3), Int 22 (+6), Wis 14 (+4), Cha 16 (+3)
SQ: +3 bonus to AC when casting defensively (Imbued Staff feat)
Feats: Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Imbued Resistance, Scribe Scroll, Sudden Empower Spell (1/day)
Skills: Concentration +16, Spellcraft +14, Tumble +6
Possessions: Combat Gear, lesser metamagic silent (extend), cloak of charisma +2, Mask of the Faceless One (combines the effects of a mask of resistance +1 and mask of intellect +2, wearer suffers a –3 penalty to all Charisma related checks), spell component pouch, pouch with 48 gp.
Tactics:
Casts the following before combat:
- Mage Armor (duration: 6 hours) +4 armor bonus to AC
- False Life (duration: 6 hours) +16 Hit Points
- Potion of Shield of Faith (duration: 12 minutes) +4 deflection bonus to AC
- Shield (duration: 6 minutes) +4 shield bonus to AC
- Mirror Image (duration: 6 minutes) 5 images
Use the following combat tactics:
- Use metamagic rod to cast empowered monster summoning III to bring in a Huge Monstrous Centipede
- GET TO COVER THROUGH THE CENTIPEDE!!!!!
- Blast the shizzle out of the party!
Arcesilaus |
I would like to say, "Right on, Chriton." As a vocal critic of 3Foe, I fully support Chriton's disappointment with the early episodes in the AoW path. The Whispering Cairn is overly lethal, as we all know. You don't have to look very hard to find several threads that say this very thing. 3FoE is, by the editors' admission, chock full of typos and errors. I'm not just talking about an extra feat or a misallocated skill point or two, I'm talking about serious mistakes like incompatible gear on NPCs (my characters WILL notice when the cleric is wielding a two-handed flail and a shield at the same time, and not because they're "too familiar with my monsters.") and incorrect room numbers.
That said, Chriton, they DO get better, IMO. I still have problems with variety for variety's sake (e.g., the inclusion of a pair of harpies in the lizardfolk lair) and the repetitive "ask the NPC for help" hooks, but the adventures are getting better as they go. Champion's Belt and Hall of Harsh Reflections, in particular, are excellent adventures.
I, too, started running AoW because I don't have the time to do my own campaign. Of course, I quickly discovered I was going to have to make the time to make adjustments and look for areas that need fixing (for example, the draconic kobolds in Blackwall Keep are described as wielding spears, but have rapiers in the stat block). Most of these mistakes are not the end of the world, but time to fix them is still necessary (ps. the map is not missing, you are right that it is the unnumbered poster map).
I hope that helps (and actually adresses the question you posed).
O
Black Dougal |
They key to any campaign is to plan ahead. I read the first three adventures before starting my AOW campaign..I knew what the players might face...when they were in player creation phase I steered them towards feats and skills that would aid them. Thus I wound up with a gnome wizard with 18 con (don't ask) who buring hands as a starting spell..a grey elf rogue with 18 int who has a obsene search skill, a human ranger whose major enemy was undead etc...
A lot of players want to create whatever character they fancy...that's fun for them until they find the set of skills is next to useless for the campaign..you can solve a lot of problems before campaign starts by nudging the players...I gave a "hero point" to each player who decided to be from Diamond lake and take a reasonable race/class combo. That quickly stifled the min/maxer who wanted to play a goliath...
Erik Mona Chief Creative Officer, Publisher |
I may be alone in this, but personally I would have rather had erratas than stat blocks for scores of people in town, especially since there are very few of them where full stat blocks will ever be useful.
The Overload outline was concluded way before there was any errata to be compiled, so this is a false dichotomy. Further, the town stat blocks were completed before #124 ever came out--it was the outline portion that took us (me) so long to polish that resulted in the big delay on the Overload.
It appears that there has been a lot of time spent fleshing out the setting, but the focus seems off. There are lots of details about townsfolk, but WC specifically give the party a base outside of town to minimize the time they spend there, and 3FoE seems to encourage the party to do it in one trip. Blackwall then...
My own party played something like 15 four-hour sessions in Diamond Lake before setting out for Blackwall Keep, so I think this is all a matter of pacing and how much "non-module" stuff you do in between the adventures.
Me? I tend to do a lot of it. The adventures provide the framework for the campaign, but it's the DM's responsibility to add extra encounters and stuff that speak directly to his players' interests and backstories, and the assumption is that a lot of this goes on in Diamond Lake in the early part of the campaign.
I have read posts from people on this site who blew in and out of the Whispering Cairn in a single night of play, and all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say "you and I play a very different sort of Dungeons & Dragons."
--Erik
Big Jake |
...all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say "you and I play a very different sort of Dungeons & Dragons."
--Erik
I've thought about this before. I've often wanted a chance to sit in a game with the Paizo folks, or in Monte Cook's game, just to see how the "pros" play it. But I have to admit, I enjoy being the DM because I like the way I run things, and I don't always like the way other people run things. So, who knows how I'd feel.
I think you really hit it on the nail when you say that you make it work for each group's interests and backstories, though. I do my best to get to know each player's ideas and wants, and I work it into the game. The result is always great.
Chriton227 |
(Please excuse me, I have realized that I can't keep a post short to save my life.)
My own party played something like 15 four-hour sessions in Diamond Lake before setting out for Blackwall Keep, so I think this is all a matter of pacing and how much "non-module" stuff you do in between the adventures.
You must play a much slower paced game than most. At that rate (2 adventures in 15 sessions), you are looking at 90 play sessions to complete the campaign. My group plays for 4-5 hours every other week (with occasional cancellations due to illness and holidays), and at that rate it would take almost 4 years of play to complete the campaign. We also tried to pace things so that we could still get RPGA points for the adventures, but we gave up on that when it took us 4 sessions (2 months) to complete WC.
I remember seeing somewhere that the rewards in D&D 3.0/3.5 were geared to allow a group of players to advance from 1st to 20th in a year of weekly 4 hours sessions. The description you present is about half of this pace. If this is what you and your players enjoy, that is great, however I don't believe this is typical of most groups.
I try to maintain a sense of urgency in the game to keep it moving forward. I can't understand how someone could be considered a "hero" when their response to learning about an evil cult beneath their town is "we must stop them...right after I win the Dragon Chess tournament and take a look at the freaks down at the Emporium." The PCs in my game have been to Tidwoad's, the Spinning Giant, the Garrison, Smenk's house, Moonmeadow's house, Parrin's house, the Lakeside stables, the Feral Dog, and other places, but these were incidental to their primary tasks.
There are distinct backstories in my game that I keep in mind, but I use them as backstories, not as the primary plot. To me the primary plot is that events have been set in motion that will end the world as the PCs know it, and they are the only ones who can stop it. Anything that distracts them from this task is threatening the world as a whole.
I've got 5 characters in the group, and each has a distinct backstory and motivations. The warlock is a refugee from the Pale (they thought he was a heretic), the rogue is trying to earn enough money to settle her mother's debts and get her and herself out of working in the Emporium, the cleric is following up on some rumors of odd teachings at the local temple of Cuthbert, the fighter is a guard for Moonmeadow's residence, and the bard happened to pick the wrong person (Smenk) to play a joke on and humiliate in public and now wants to make himself scarce. I use these backgrounds to involve the characters into scenes and adventures directly related to the main plot. I did follow the advice at the beginning of WC and tried to make sure that each character would have a reason why they would want to get out of town. With every character having a reason to want to leave, why would they want to prolong their stay by exploring the town?
My style is less "allow the characters to wander the world developing their backstories", and more "give them a hook, set it good when they bite, and let them drive the campaign in pursuit of the goal". Time spent on a unified goal is time that all of the players are engaged and participating. Time spent focused on a particular character's backstory is time when the rest of the players are sitting around bored because their character is being ignored. The sooner I get a solid hook into the players, the sooner they gel into a group with a sense of purpose and a desire to achieve great things.
It appears that the AoW path is not my style, which is probably why my group is wallowing in 3FoE. They have no sense that they are about to be involved in epic events, the only hint they have received so far is an innocuous looking worm in a glass jar, certainly not a portent of global destruction. Looking at Blackwall Keep, that appears to be where the real hook is set (an infestation is growing, and someone must stop it), but I don't think my party will get there. The hook my party took is the giant Rod of Seven Parts hook in WC, and they really didn't seem to have any interest in the worm. One thing I'm debating doing is shifting gears and dusting off my old copy of Ro7P to run instead of the remainder of the AP.
Everyone has their own style; there is no one correct or perfect play style. For me, it turns out that AoW is just too far from my preferred style for me to enjoy. Maybe someday I'll have the time to modify it to fit my style, and maybe I'll put some live worms into the beginning of the Age of Worms. After all, a lot of fishermen will tell you that a live worm on the hook is great bait. :)
TPK Jay |
So you haven't yet finished 3FOE, and your players aren't into the epic plot. Could it be because the adventure path hasn't even truely revealed the plot? To me WC was more of a prologue to the AOW, it involves unrealited events that only barely brush on the impending doom by chance. Had Kullen and Co. snatched some other body's for Filge, the PCs would return from some random expedition to find the world engulfed in darkness. You know, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, naturally they became heroes... Personally I loved it.
The cult beneath the Dourstone mines, at this point, seems like another unrelated event. Until they read up on the cultist leaders plans. Then they begin to see a glimpse of things to come. To give you fair warning, the next 2 parts have little to do with the overall plot as well, the Champion's Belt is the next opportunity to really learn anything more about the AOW, followed by another seemingly un-related adventure (though it ties nicely to both WC and EBWK). Looking at the outline in the Overload, it looks like from that point on the heroes are working to stop the AOW full-time. To me it's like a TV show which combnes random single-episode plots intermixed with sweeping multi-episode storylines (like X-Files). The slow build may not be your group's style, which is fine. It sounds more like you and your group were expecting a single unified plot in 12 parts, and perhaps that expecation hurt things.
If you want the players to be more engaged, toss in a few random references to the coming apocolypse (check out the Worms Crawl In thread). If they don't bite, maybe its time for someting new.
On another note, I don't think its realistic to think that a published campaign can work out for every group. A DM needs to review the campaign, and alter things that they don't feel work. Sometimes its little things like swapping a weapon to better fit the party fighter's weapon of choice, sometimes its completly re-working an encounter. Of course this takes time, but not nearly so much as writing your own adventures.
I totally understand having limited time to work on a campaign. But here's a few suggestions:
1) Take Dungeon to work with you. Assuming your employers allow the legally-required lunch time, read through the adventure then. Grab a highlighter and some post-its from the company supply cabinet (rob the company, its good for the soul) to make notes.
2) Use that hour-long commute to think about what you read over lunch, think about how to tailor things to your group. Brainstorming doesn't require so much focus as to impair your driving. Taking notes, however, will. If there's a pocket recorder in the supply cabinet, snag it; if not, think about picking one up or call your voice mail on your cell with your notes.
3) Find a time where you can work on the campaign at home without interuption. Explain to the fam that this is your alone time, and it's the only thing keeping you from putting round after round into innocent bystanders from a clock tower. As you pointed out D&D is a release for some of us (picturing you boss's face on the orc your character is cleaving in twain is also chicken soup for the soul). Or set the alarm 30 minutes earlier, and work on things before anyone else gets up. Sleep is overrated anyway.
Chriton227 |
I totally understand having limited time to work on a campaign. But here's a few suggestions:
1) Take Dungeon to work with you. Assuming your employers allow the legally-required lunch time, read through the adventure then. Grab a highlighter and some post-its from the company supply cabinet (rob the company, its good for the soul) to make notes.
I've done that some, but I've gotten some really strange looks from people that could have an impact on my future advancement (side effect of working in a rural city in a conservative area). I also have some sort of pathological aversion to marking in books (I even get bothered by writing my name in my books).
2) Use that hour-long commute to think about what you read over lunch, think about how to tailor things to your group. Brainstorming doesn't require so much focus as to impair your driving. Taking notes, however, will. If there's a pocket recorder in the supply cabinet, snag it; if not, think about picking one up or call your voice mail on your cell with your notes.
I do spend some time thinking about the game, but my car time is also one of the only times I get true peace and quiet to be able to focus on the more complex issues at work (I'm a programmer). I can't use the cell phone/voice mail trick, since reception is spotty at best (I live in the mountains) and I am on a prepaid plan for budgetary reasons (phone is for emergencies, costs me $0.25/minute to use).
3) Find a time where you can work on the campaign at home without interruption. Explain to the fam that this is your alone time, and it's the only thing keeping you from putting round after round into innocent bystanders from a clock tower. As you pointed out D&D is a release for some of us (picturing you boss's face on the orc your character is cleaving in twain is also chicken soup for the soul). Or set the alarm 30 minutes earlier, and work on things before anyone else gets up. Sleep is overrated anyway.
City of Heroes/City of Villains is my current primary stress reliever (thrashing countless enemies in a virtual world can be very therapeutic). I've found that lately game prep stresses me, it's running the game that is the stress reliever. It's also hard to explain to a pair of little girls (4 and 6) that prepping for the game is more important than spending time with them or reading them a bedtime story. I'm definitely more of a night person than a morning person, I have a hard enough time getting up in time to make it to work. I get an hour or two after the kids and wife go to sleep, but that time is often consumed by the daily minutia of life (laundry, dishes, etc.), and if I put off going to bed, I find it almost impossible to fall asleep and then I am worthless at work the next day.
I'm still trying to figure out how to work my schedule, especially since we have another little one on the way. I've actually found that the sessions where things have gone in totally unexpected directions where I was forced to do everything on the fly have been some of the best sessions I've ever run, but I have a hard time committing to that as an intentional style, I don't trust that the spark of creativity will be there on demand.
Our group has tried a variety of game styles and a variety of systems, with just about everyone trying their hand at GMing from time to time. We haven't had any success with the slow-building campaigns or with the more simulationist style (allowing the PCs to explore the world with no real campaign goals). I'm fine with that, different strokes for different folks; I just wish I had recognized that the style didn't mesh with my group before spending several month's worth of our play sessions on it.
***
(side note) I'd like to thank everyone who has taken the time to respond to me. I'm finding that just brain-dumping to the boards is helping me get some perspective on the situation and some of the suggestions that have been made will definitely see some use.
Nicolas Logue Contributor |
Hey all!
I was also thinking that the lethality of the path may have something to do with the party composition. Bard/Rogue/Warlock/Cleric is a strong combo in some respects, but without a heavy hitter/damage soaker like a Fighter or Barbarian, any adventure can prove too much.
I have been running a lot of games out here in Hawai'i recently and nobody ever wants to play a fighter...which I can understand sometimes, but the side effect is that I have to tone down some encounters otherwise rogues and warmages are dropping like flies in the fight.
Maybe if you decrease the danger of some encounters to compensate for the lack of a tank the path will prove less fatal.
Then again...with the right spell combo, a cleric can house a fighter at higher levels, but not at 4th or 5th.
Loviatar's Whipping Boy |
so what have we learned so far?
- RANDOM dice rolls can result in easy combats or TPKs
- campaign taste is individual
- a series of adventures written by different authors isn't going to be as cohesive as from the one author or as good as a homegrown campaign
- the writers and editors are human
at the risk of repeating myself from an earlier post on an old thread, what did Dungeon provide before the Adventure Paths? a series of seemingly unrelated adventures that those of us with enough magazines and little time to spare must have somehow strung together into something resembling a campaign. has so much changed that campaigns are now falling apart due to lack of interest?
i have always treated ANY Dungeon adventure, even the AP instalments, as one-shot deals and if they fit into a grand design of my own, then all well and good, otherwise they're out. the campaign overview which has been provided is IMHO just added gravy which ABSOLUTELY needs to be tweaked by individual DMs for their groups, foreshadowing etc etc whatever your group needs to keep interested.
i do agree about the errata - there's no easy solution but neither do i see it as a new or AP-specific problem. i suggest wait for the hardback if you don't have time to make fixes.
(LWB scurries back to She Who Must Be Obeyed for his deserved punishment for conversing with mortal scum)
Patman |
Wow..I thought my girlfriend and jobs were time consuming, thank God I only have nephews..LOL..just kidding. I agree about party composistion. We started with a Bard, a Cleric, a Wizard and a Hexblade. Here is what they have now. The bard retired. We all loved the character, and he was awesome when it came to traps and social stuff ( they neve would have gotten this far without his diplomacy ) but the player tired of being ineffectual in combat. So he now has a Barbarian/Fighter/Tempest. The Hexblade picked up a few levels of fighter and 2 of rogue, all well played out, so I allowed it. The Wizard went to Force Missile mage, then Elemental Savant, and the Cleric went to Paladin then War Priest. They are pretty tough, but now they are going to have huge problems with A Gathering of Winds. More likely than not, setting off most traps the way they were intended to go off. Should be interesting..
Chriton227 |
I was also thinking that the lethality of the path may have something to do with the party composition. Bard/Rogue/Warlock/Cleric is a strong combo in some respects, but without a heavy hitter/damage soaker like a Fighter or Barbarian, any adventure can prove too much.
We actually do have a fighter now, he joined about halfway through WC and is the same level as the rest of the party. He is a halberd specialist with a 20 strength (side effect of the odd stat method we used). He hits like a Mack truck, and is a fairly substantial meat shield as well. The warlock is also one of the primary damage dealers in the party (2d6 every round as a ranged touch attack adds up quick), and he makes a great meat shield (he has Toughness and the Troll Blooded Greyhawk regional feat, which bestows Regen 1).
The fighter fell to the dire boar; it can drop a Ftr3 with Con 16 and max hp in two hits without crits (and assuming average rolls for damage and hp, it would drop a Con 18 fighter in 2 hits as well). My party just didn't have enough damage dealing capability to drop it before it started taking out party members, especially once you notice that it stays conscious and keeps fighting until it hits -10 hit points. In four rounds the dire boar took out three party members: the cleric made the mistake of casting while threatened (he trusted his AC more than his Concentration), then was hit a second time (driving him to -14), the fighter got tagged twice, and then the bard was attacked and dropped in a single attack.
I've found that rogues and warmages function best against either single tough targets or large quantities of minor targets, but a small number of moderately tough targets give them trouble. I actually think the party would have given their right arms for a warmage in the Hextor temple just for the AoE damage to clear out the minor targets.
BRAP |
I'd just like to poke my head in here and agree with chriton227 and others who have voiced disappointment with this campaign. I started the AoW path with high hopes after reading "The Whispering Cairn", which I thought was a great adventure (with a very little bit of personalized tweaking). From there on however, I've been pretty disappointed. I think the plot hooks are pretty awful. someone else on here said something about going from town to town to interview scholars, which I think is dead-on. Pretty much every hook of the adventure path so far (and I just read "The Spire of Long Shadows") involves the PCs travling to talk with some new "expert" about the information they've gathered so far. This could be a little boring in the first place, but add to it the fact that, for the most part, they're not really discovering from these experts anything all that new or revelatory. Quoting from "Blackwall Keep" under concluding the adventure: "Marzena tells Allustan what she's heard about green worms in the Cairn Hills, but unfortunately her news offers little new information apart from confirmation that spawn of Kyuss are increasing in number throughout the Cairn Hills..." Granted, the PCs inadvertently discover more information (through speaking with Hishka or whatever), but the original point of them going came to nothing.
Then they run to the free city to talk to Eligos, an even bigger "expert". on pg. 33 of the magazine, 4 pieces of information are given. I'm not going to type them all out, but they are, basically: first, involvement of Kyuss who mastered undead; second, there are other, more powerful creatures associated with kyuss (other than the spawn); third, that the cult of kyuss is growing; fourth, brief information about the age of wurms. The PCs are potentially privy to ALL of this information in one form or another (most, if not all of it, was discovered by interviewing Filge and reading the handouts from TFoE, and/or by having Allustan research it). There are very minor new ideas added, but nothing justifying having an entire adventure built around trying to find them out.
Then they run to Manzorian, who actually does give them some pertinent information (relevant artifacts and specifics about Kyuss for example), but it's still mostly just a more concise reiteration of everything else they've already learned. By 13th/14th level, they're still really just following up on the same basic information that they found in the middle of the first episode at 2nd level.
Again, I reckognize that through these visits, they're directed to other information and quests, but the visits themselves act as bad plot hooks and PC motivation because they're an utterly transparent tool to move the characters along. The flow and the PCs' motivations should be much more natural feeling than that. I also reckognize that I, as the DM, can tweak these plot hooks, and I have. But I run pre-made adventures so I don't have to spend a lot of time messing around with that stuff, so I think it's a legitimate criticism of the adventure.
I know a lot of people don't care about this stuff as much and are thouroughly enjoying AoW. That's totally fine and I'm not trying to jump all over Dungeon. I'm just voicing my opinion. To me, good plot hooks and PC motivations are essential to a good scenario, and I don't think much time was spent creating a good flow between episodes for this adventure path.
Tiger Lily |
The biggest issues for me now are 1) where can the party rest to continue and 2) how to introduce the replacement for the dead character. I really dislike stopping in the middle of an adventure.
1) I've only done my first readthrough on 3FoE, but it seems to me that the 3 temples don't have a great communication system set up. So long as the missing tiefling guards in the elevator shaft aren't noticed, the group should be able to rest in one temple once it's cleaned out. Given that the temples seem to be self sufficient, you can have it where days go by without anyone going into the elevator shaft or replacements coming for the guards. The temple of Hextor would likely be the one responsible for checking on the guards as they're the most miliatry / organized. The others may simply assume Hextor's group takes care of it. The plot assumes you start with Hextor's temple, so if that's what happened, have them rest there undisturbed once it's cleared out. I don't remember if killing one of the high Priests would trigger the Ebon Aspect, but you can simply slow the time frame of that or change it all together so that all 3 have to be killed.
2) Simple: Others could have noticed what's going on and be checking it out as well. Here's the hook I'm using in 3FoE: Two of my PCs have Bronzewood lodge connections. It's a safe bet that the nature based group would have noticed the increased undead and be concerned about rumors of cultists. I'm also having the Twilight Monestary get involved as they've had "portents" of something bad to come. Given that niether group would have much faith in the town political / military structure to help, they're banding together and addressing it on their own. This is what I"m using to get the group into Dourstone, not the whole Smenk thing (though I'm weaving in some spies of his). With this as the backdrop, it would be easy for the group to come across another PC or NPC sent down to scout it out. Give him / her a connection to another party member, or a common contact, and you have a new group member.
Lady Aurora |
Well, in another dose of probably unwanted advice, I'll say this...
I disagree with some of my fellow posters (and agree with your own response). It sounds to me like your party composition was reasonable and well-balanced and should've been well-prepared to face "whate'er lies ahead".
Maybe I'm way off track here, Chriton, but I got the impression from some of your earlier posts that your group is used to playing in some high power games. I hate to apply the descriptor "power-gamer" but I get the impression the PCs were superstrong, well-equipped, superheroes who basically just walked around kicking butt and taking names. The biggest challenge for you as the DM, in the past, has been providing bigger and badder supervillians to feed into the meatgrinder of the party's legendary battle prowess. This isn't MY particular flavor of play but it obviously worked well for both you and yours. It also sounds to me like your players almost never started any campaign at first level - jumping instead directly to 3rd and avoiding that whole messy challenge to stay alive thing. I think this represents a distinct style of play that is obviously completely uncompatable with the Age of Worms adventure path. I think both you and your players entered into AoW gameplay with the idea that you'd start out with some decent well-balanced, well-equipped characters who would then go about in their usual kickin' butt/takin' names style while developing over 12 fully-developed episodes into the awesome high level superheroes you all know and love. The players were probably expecting their usual fantasy cake-walk and you were probably expecting to invest minimal input - merely managing their victorious tromp and buffing up a few adversaries so it wasn't a complete wash. This assumption came crashing down painfully when your thoughtfully prepared 1st level characters got their butts handed to them by their very first encounter (and by something as uninspired as a few wolves!). Followed by more defeat, more defeat and oh ... another butt-whooping and narrow escape. Now no one is having fun. It's more like a practice in frustration. I'm sorry for your disappointment, sincerely. I view this whole situation as caused by your distinct playing style (fast-paced, low challenge, almost certain victory by powerful characters who only meet death under the most extreme conditions). I think perhaps the surprise for you (and perhaps the lesson learned) is that your style of play is more rare (rarer?) than you originally imagined. I don't believe a significant percentage of the D&D players engage in that sort of play (not that there's anything wrong with it).
I disagree with your comments to Erik. I believe most people do indeed play at the slower rate, despite the black-and-white breakdown established under the official advancement system. I don't believe anyone (or at least not any significant portion of the D&D population) seriously believes they are going to complete AoW from 1st level to 20th in just 12 months. We all like to aim for that, sorta like the "ideal", with the realization that it isn't really likely to happen. I wouldn't personally be surprised if it did indeed take years from my playing group to complete this adventure path (which is perfectly acceptable to all of us).
I hear your complaint about the different authors but you were aware of the situation (and the resulting disparity between adventures seems therefore obvious) before Whispering Cairn was even published. Part of the point to the Overload was to give an overview of the entire plotline so that DMs could plan/adjust accordingly. Or were you absent that day?
I also am a bit confused on your complaint about the errata and "glaring errors" that are only revealed when actually in game-play. Isn't that the purpose of these messageboards? You very nicely requested a place where readers could share problems and brainstorm solutions, possibly with input by editors/authors/other "experts". I regret that you were basically declined by the Paizo staff but I think the question was superfluous. These messageboards already pretty much provide that service. Everytime a new episode of the adventure path is released, a bunch of people read it and point out typos and possible trouble spots. Then DMs chime in with their experiences of running the adventure, others comment and offer advice, conversation ensues. For instance, the problem you mention with the elevator being boarded up and therefore being illogical had already been discussed at length in various threads. Your complaint with what some considered weak plothooks and/or poor continuity between episodes has also been thoroughly discussed on various threads. The trouble with the flails - also exposed and corrected by your friendly fellow DMs.
I guess what I don't understand is ... If you knew enough to find this messageboard and start your own thread to expose your disappointment with the AoW AP in the first place, why haven't you been reading and utilizing the wealth of information provided on these messageboards and therefore avoid the very pitfalls of which you complain?
I hope I don't sound harsh here (I don't intend to be). I'm just trying to help you avoid such disappointments in the future.
Good luck with whatever gaming materials you do impliment. Happy gaming and above all ... "Let's be safe out there"
Chriton227 |
Well, in another dose of probably unwanted advice, I'll say this...
(snipped for length)
Our games are high powered, the players like to think of their characters as heroes destined to save the world, not commoners who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. We play mainly as a way to relieve stress and socialize. We are all long time gamers (at least 10 years each), good with math, and optimizing (min/maxing, power gaming, choose your description) comes very naturally to us. Are games are high powered, but I don't think that our games are as over the top as you may think. In my campaigns, I have historically used the organic rolling system from the DMG, and I don't add extra treasure or experience to the prepublished adventures I run, and I start the players at the recommended minimums for the adventures. The players are just very good at making the most of what they have.
We each have stressful jobs that require daily excursions into the worlds of corporate and/or government politics and intensive problem analysis and resolution. When we all worked jobs that were fairly mindless (retail, food service, etc.) we tended to spend a lot more time on character development and in-game politics. In many ways gaming is an escapist hobby, and I find it hard to escape into a world that resembles my real life too closely. Many of the gamers I know have had similar shifts in their play styles as they have gotten older and taken on more real-life responsibilities.
I think our play style is intentionally accelerated, in large part due to how little gaming time we have. The days of being in 4 weekly campaigns are long gone, and in the limited time we have we really want to make noticible progress.
I would have liked to look over the Overload before beginning the campaign, but it was significantly delayed until well after the first of the AP came out (Overload posted on Aug 5, I124 supplement posted on June 8, issue arrived late May/early June). I would love to have time to dig though the hundreds of posts currently on the board, or the thousands of posts in the messageboard archive, but my personal time constraints are much of what drew me to the AP in the first place. There is a tremendous amount of useful information and feedback on the site, but it is not easy to identify which threads are going to have useful information, identified issues, or official responses to the issues. The archived information is only available through the search, and there are no common tags to identify threads that will contain errata or discussion on particular adventures. My actual suggestion was that someone consolidate the errata, get official okay on the proposed fixes, and make it available in a location like the official errata link that is on the Dungeon magazine home page.
I don't think you sound harsh, but I do think we come from two very different places. The great thing about our hobby is that we can all play in the way we enjoy most.
Erik Mona Chief Creative Officer, Publisher |
My actual suggestion was that someone consolidate the errata, get official okay on the proposed fixes, and make it available in a location like the official errata link that is on the Dungeon magazine home page.
If some readers want to take the initiative to pull something like this together, that would be just great, and much appreciated.
--Erik
Effrom al'Relik |
I must be finding things a bit different from most, but I've had to change a number of things in Whispering Cairn to make things a bit more acceptable to my style of DMing and more interesting to the players. This is the first time I've used published adventures in the modern era, I haven't used one since the 2nd Edition days. I wanted a more active role and my players wanted more actual roleplaying, so I adapted.
My players are "good with math" as well, and so they min/max whenever they can get away with it. My response is to min/max the encounters. They don't like it much, so they try to be careful.
As a DM it's my responsibility to make the game work, and that means I have to do the work. If I don't like something in the module, I change it. Has it been tough on my group? Sure. They've suffered quite a bit. No deaths yet, but I expect them. I warn my players that I expect a 50% death rate in low level adventures, and they accept this. They keep extra characters in the chute just in case. They are adventurers, and that means risk.
I've read and prepared for the first three adventures. I'm through most of the first, and as I've said, they've suffered, but they aren't bored. And when they do complain it isn't about the adventure. It's about how they've handled things. They've had a good laugh about their mistakes at the end of the sessions. They've had a good time and that's why we play, after all.
zoroaster100 |
I haven't actually run Age of Worms in actual play yet (though I'm running Shackled City with much success and fun at the moment). However, in reading the adventures to date, most have seemed like a lot of fun, filled with interesting ideas. In particular, I was blown away by the Spire of Long Shadows. That is surely one of the best adventures I've read in a while in terms of containing awesome cinematic-feel scenes waiting to happen. And it is filled with great new monsters that are so great that they inspired me to understand how to create custom monsters for other adventures on my own as well.
I do agree with the criticism above, though, about the weakness in the plot hook between adventures regarding seeking the next sage or expert who ends up revealing very little. I hope very much that Dungeon will publish Age of Worms as a hardcover. When that happens, the one place I hope Dungeon's staff will put some extra effort is in finding better hooks to link some of the adventures instead of the repetitive hook of traveling to ask a sage.
Jeremy Walker Contributor |
To me, good plot hooks and PC motivations are essential to a good scenario, and I don't think much time was spent creating a good flow between episodes for this adventure path.
I think this criticism is perfectly valid, and it is something we will consider carefully when planning both AP III and (potentially) the Age of Worms hardcover.
Nicolas Logue Contributor |
Nicolas Logue wrote:I was also thinking that the lethality of the path may have something to do with the party composition. Bard/Rogue/Warlock/Cleric is a strong combo in some respects, but without a heavy hitter/damage soaker like a Fighter or Barbarian, any adventure can prove too much.I've found that rogues and warmages function best against either single tough targets or large quantities of minor targets, but a small number of moderately tough targets give them trouble. I actually think the party would have given their right arms for a warmage in the Hextor temple just for the AoE damage to clear out the minor targets.
I'm gonna eat some of my own words here. We gamed last night and the party consisted of a warmage, a sorcerer, and a warlock. We housed everything...everything. It was a travesty. Warmages rock out with their socks out. Fighters can just take a hike I guess. :-)
robert Goode |
I'm gonna eat some of my own words here. We gamed last night and the party consisted of a warmage, a sorcerer, and a warlock. We housed everything...everything. It was a travesty. Warmages rock out with their socks out. Fighters can just take a hike I guess. :-)
I've noticed that even at low levels (3rd-5th) a well thought wizard can make a fighter's kill tally look like small potatoes. On the other hand, my wizard wouldn't even think of trying to hold a narrow corridor from a stream of angry orcs. Meatshields have there purpose and though Warmages are more combatty than wizards, they still can't take the shear punishment that a Fighter with a huge AC or a Barbarian's massive number of hit points allows.
Shane Garner |
From what you say about your time constraints you have no business trying to DM as well as juggle all your other commitments. Being a DM requires work, lots of it; no matter if you are trying to run a published adventure or making up one of your own. I go to school and work and have a kid and play D&D, often DMing. When things get too tight, I take a breather from D&D. It isn't fun, but neither is having a DM who doesn't have his you know what together.
I understand some of your complaints but get real. You know what I have done to ease the problem of erratta? I haven't started running the adventure yet! My PCs will start up after the first of the year and I will have all the posts on the messageboards as well as letters to the editor to work with to figure out problems. I personally was amazed at the amount of material outside of Dungeon for this adventure. It has made my preparations that more thorough and complete.
I suggest turning the reins over to someone without so much on his/her plate. Or else buy an RPG for the computer so you can play at your pace and you don't mess w/anyone elses groove.