Getting ready to make a new RPGA character. Thinking about a spiked chain wielder, but...
I noticed it's not a double weapon. I've always assumed it was, but when I looked around, I noticed it isn't.
So, is it? Or is it just a finesse-using, tripping, disarming and all around good weapon?
Getting ready to make a new RPGA character. Thinking about a spiked chain wielder, but...
I noticed it's not a double weapon. I've always assumed it was, but when I looked around, I noticed it isn't.
So, is it? Or is it just a finesse-using, tripping, disarming and all around good weapon?
Don't forget the 10 ft. reach!
There are some alternatives in Savage Species, the Chain Lash and the Barbed Chain. Not sure if you could use those in an RPGA character, but there you go.
Getting ready to make a new RPGA character. Thinking about a spiked chain wielder, but...
I noticed it's not a double weapon. I've always assumed it was, but when I looked around, I noticed it isn't.
So, is it? Or is it just a finesse-using, tripping, disarming and all around good weapon?
This Weapon with the right feats is VERY good (there are many feats that inprove it...but especially in the hands of a character with combat reflexes and good dex, this weapon is nasty).
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This weapon can be the most absurd thing in the hands of a fighter with good Dex. With the following feats: Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Improved Disarm you effectively become a tornado that can tear apart anyone in a 10 ft. radius. My PCs actually took the penalty and used LARGE spiked chains giving them 15 ft. reach and a complete zone of invincibility.
This weapon can be the most absurd thing in the hands of a fighter with good Dex. With the following feats: Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Improved Disarm you effectively become a tornado that can tear apart anyone in a 10 ft. radius. My PCs actually took the penalty and used LARGE spiked chains giving them 15 ft. reach and a complete zone of invincibility.
Were does it say anything about a large chain having a 15 foot reach? A large chain has a reach double the reach of the wielder or 10 feet for medium creatures. A more clear example comes up if one finds a large dagger - obvously that does not extend the weapons reach to 10'...unless of course its in the hands of an Ogre - I'm sure your players will be less then thrilled with you reducing the power of the cheesiest weapon in the entire game but I'd stick to my guns on this one - its already grossly overpowered.
Also adressing the original post - spiked chains are classified as exotic two handed melee weapons on the weapon tables. Seems probable that this table is not in error.
I know, it seems like it could theoretically be used on either end, and I wanted to double check first.
I know, it seems like it could theoretically be used on either end, and I wanted to double check first.
Ahh - I see I misinterpreted what you were asking. I agree with you in theory - but I'd never allow it to have any more advantages so I would say no. It is a chain after all and presumably one needs to try and control it. A double weapon mostly is good for either versitility (the two ends are different) or thwaking things with both ends in a round. With a chain I think that would be particularly hard as its long and unweildy.
Just want to back Jeremy up on the reach issue with a large spiked chain. The weapon's reach would not be any greater, though its damage would be better. Also, wielding a large spiked chain would impose a -2 penalty on a medium creatures attack rolls.
As the previous posters noted correctly about the reach, I'd like to point out that, IIRC, you can't use a Two-Handed Weapon for a size category larger than you. You can use a one-handed weapon (or smaller) weapon of a size category larger than you at the -2 penalty, but not a two-handed (without the appropriate feats or racial abilities).
Just want to back Jeremy up on the reach issue with a large spiked chain. The weapon's reach would not be any greater, though its damage would be better. Also, wielding a large spiked chain would impose a -2 penalty on a medium creatures attack rolls.
IIRC The Lasher PrC allows you to use the Spiked Chain as a Double Weapon
The Lasher is whip focused, actually. What you're thinking of is the Master of Chains, also from the Sword and Fist (3.0). The ability is gained at 5th level in the PrC.
There is a feat in the Eberron book, i think its called precise swing, that is awesome for a spiked chain wielder. It negates anything but total cover for all of your melee attacks, including the cover provided by bodies in the way of the weapons reach. That combined with a high dex and combat reflexes, allows for a lot of attacks.
Were does it say anything about a large chain having a 15 foot reach? A large chain has a reach double the reach of the wielder or 10 feet for medium creatures. A more clear example comes up if one finds a large dagger - obvously that does not extend the weapons reach to 10'...unless of course its in the hands of an Ogre - I'm sure your players will be less then thrilled with you reducing the power of the cheesiest weapon in the entire game but I'd stick to my guns on this one - its already grossly overpowered.
I'm totally onboard with Mac Donald's assessment (and rule clarrification regarding reach) of the Spiked Chain. One of my players is a Goliath in our AoW campaign, and weilds a large spiked chain. His reach is still only 10 feet, until he "Mountainous Rages", then he gains the 20 foot reach as his size increases to Large.
The spiked chain is overpowered, but not so much that it hurts the game. The one balancing factor I can hang over his head is that the uniqueness of the weapon (especially since he uses large varieties) results in limited availability or exhorbanent prices for custom creation...
M...U...N...
C...H...K...I...N
Power Gamer wheeeeeee.
Whose the member of the Party with the nice Spiked Chain
M...U...N...
C...H...K...I...N
Oh Spiked Chain for me.
ASEO out
There is a feat in the Eberron book, i think its called precise swing, that is awesome for a spiked chain wielder. It negates anything but total cover for all of your melee attacks, including the cover provided by bodies in the way of the weapons reach. That combined with a high dex and combat reflexes, allows for a lot of attacks.
Soft cover only applies against ranged attacks, not reach weapons. I had a player convince me it worked against everything for a while... had me going crazy. Could still be a good feat, but soft cover isn't a worry.
Good feats for a Spiked Chain wielder include:
Combat Reflexes
Weapon Finesse
Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave
Hold the Line (AoO against charging opponents entering threat range)
Agile Reposte (From d20 Modern: AoO against one opponent who fails to hit you per round) with Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack
Improved Trip, Improved Sunder
Whirlwind Attack
Also, if you have the ranks in Ride to do it, using a spiked chain from horseback can be pretty deadly. Spirited Charge makes it more so.
And of course the Weapon Focus/Specialization line
CHAIN DEVIL (KYTON) the "Spiked Chain Master". With its "Dancing Chains" it can use up to 6 chains at the same time!! Now THAT'S a chain user!
CHAIN DEVIL (KYTON) the "Spiked Chain Master". With its "Dancing Chains" it can use up to 6 chains at the same time!! Now THAT'S a chain user!For sure. The Kyton is a nasty antidote for the spiked chain munchkin who's getting too uppity.
I don't think the Kyton even needs line of sight to use his dancing chain ability to turn the low-will-saving-fighter's favourite killing machine against him.
If you have a spiked chain wielder in your party the Kyton becomes a pretty scarry encounter for a CR 6.
-MwK (who guiltily admits to feat-loading the spiked chain himself from time to time)
Oddly, this implies a great special ability for an enchanted spiked chain... the ability to resist the Kyton's call.
You meant to say scary I think, but scarry is probably even more accurate. ;) Oo, the pretty pretty red.
Getting ready to make a new RPGA character. Thinking about a spiked chain wielder, but...
I noticed it's not a double weapon. I've always assumed it was, but when I looked around, I noticed it isn't.
So, is it? Or is it just a finesse-using, tripping, disarming and all around good weapon?
D20 Modern has a chain weapon that is a double weapon. It's not spiked though - it's got big steel wieghts on the end. Incidentally, if you want some inspiration for a chain wielding maniac check out Quentin Terantino's "Kill Bill".
Cheers,
C.
In one of the campaigns I participate in we recently explored a facet of the spiked chain.
A player aproaching the spiked chain as a double weapon from a stylistic (rather than game mechanics) pov was interested in a weapon for his sun soul monk that had a different enhancement for each of the two ends of his spiked chain.
Given the level of availability of enchantments in the campaign in question (high), I felt it appropriate to allow a single spiked chain to actually be "two" magic items (at the cost of two magic items, of course) allowing the wielder to choose for each attack which will be the "business end" of the weapon. This kind of thing borders on "munchkinism", I know, but as I have expressed before, so long as PCs and NPCs have access to the same advantages, and that is the sort of game everyone wants to play, then it all works out to a fun balanced game.
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It may be worth pointing out that the Oriental Adventures 3E sourcebook had a series of chain weapons that could be used both as reach weapons and, separately, double weapons. In other words, you could attack a target 10' away using it as reach weapon, and then two targets within 5' the next round using it as a double weapon. I was always slightly disappointed not to see that translate into the 3.5 rules for the spiked chain - but maybe game balance came to the fore.