HELP !
I need some input from anyone who's run or played both a classic and it's "Return". For instance, Against the Giants, Keep on the Borderlands, White Plume Mountain, and Temple of Elemental Evil.
The Return to Temple of Elemental Evil is a 3ed version, but the others I mentioned are all 2ed AD&D adventures. So I'll need to convert the adventure (or download a conversion) whether I choose the classic or the return.
Any advice or opinions ??
Come to think of it, the Slaver Series A1-4 were returned to in a publication or two near the end of 2ed. Any thoughts on that...Thanks in advance.
The originals were much better, without exception. Worth the work of conversion, in my opinion.
In particular, I found Return to ToEE very unsatisfying (though many disagree). The core conspiracy was thrown out in favor of a new one, and I thought there were just too many of 3/e's new, peculiar monsters.
On that note, if I see one more half-<insert any monster> from WotC I'm going to scream >:|
(And exactly why did Hommlet grow so dramatically in population once the original Temple was overthrown?)
For what it's worth.
Jack
Edit: the newer Slavers supplement was very good, but wasn't a real adventure -- more a sourcebook providing background information in very broad strokes.
The originals were much better, without exception.
I agree that "Return to" generally means "Trying to make a quick $10 from", but I really enjoyed Return to Keep on the Borderlands. Minor spoilers follow...
It may seem blasphemous, I know, but Caves of Chaos: The Next Generation is just as interesting (the random format of connected and disconnected caverns, the cave hierarchy) as Gygax's original, and is far more detailed. There are plenty of characters and intrigue at the Keep itself. At the Caves, the wily kobolds are given excellent tactics befitting their cowardice, as opposed to a simple "12 male and 8 non-combatant female kobolds inhabit this room (hp 3)". And a secret, cavernous labyrinth now sprawls beneath the hills, with a fearsome creature stalking its halls.
To be honest, I've DM'd the original about 3 times, and have only read the Return To, but I'd love to run it. If Gygax had written it as the original, there is no doubt in my mind it would be just as classic and fondly remembered, if not moreso.
I'm not sure about updating to 3.5 however. You need far fewer encounters to gain levels in the new rules. With the number of rooms in the Return module, a party could be taken from 1st to 5th. Just remember to adjust monster CRs and treasure accordingly.
I agree that the originals are best and worth the investment. I'm not quite as harsh in regards to most of the "Return"s, as I believe they possess at least some merit on their own (and by 'on their own', I mean, if run *in addition to* the originals). I too liked the Return to Keep of the Borderlands since I have DMed the original for virtually every new campaign I've ever run (almost a dozen times). For the reasons previously stated like intrigue at the Keep itself, more logical/ecological layouts and tactics by the cavedwellers, etc. I also liked Return to Against the Giants. Again, the DM/PCs gain more detailed and logical plots, NPCs, and more open-ended choices. Still, I think the Returns play better when the players at least (if not the characters) have already played the original (recently enough to at least be generally remembered) as many of the plot twists seem to rely on that fact.
That said, I thought Return to the Tomb of Horrors was a million percent better than the original (I know many regard the original as a classic - I'm not one of those people). The Return version is still extremely deadly without being ridiculously so, IMO; and has much better character motivations and clever scenarios.
I don't know anything about any "newer" versions of the Slaver series but I own (and adore) the originals.
|
Against the Giants II came with the original and built on them. It's a good, cheap way of getting the original and expanding upon. Same goes for the Return to the Tomb of Horrors, a logical progression on the first. Best of all for my dollar was the return to White Plume Mountain; same place just a hell of a lot weirder.
Most of these are best played after the original, with different characters. Give the whole thing an epic, multi generational feel.
Mostly the difference I found was the emphasis on a story that wasn't as evident in the originals. If you like your dungeon bash, go original. Like something more, get the returns because as I said above, for the most part you get the original and occassionally someone has already done the translating to third ed and posted it on the internet!
I truthfully enjoyed all the "Return to..." adventures as much or more than the originals (blasphemous I know). I think I found the treatment and respect the new authors gave the old without trampling all over the originals is what made the new ones so special.
The fact that Return to the Keep on the Boarderlands had a Cynidicean and a d'Amberville NPC was beyond cool.
The fact that a cult has grown up around Acerak's tomb in Return to the Tomb of Horrors doublely so.
The fact that the Return to White Plume Mountain had a cohiesive feel and maintained most of the original villians as well as being greatly expanded was beautiful.
And lastly the fact that the most classic campaign adventure of all time, The Temple of Elemental Evil, had (spoiler) the best Greyhawk villian of all time, Tharizdun (what is more scarey then a god so terrible the other gods had to imprison him), as the main villian and still maintained the feel of that absolutley unfinishable spralling dungeon makes this the best "Return to..." adventure in my opinion (not that that counts for much).
Note: I have not seen Return to Against the Giants and I do count the Slavers sourcebook as something less than a "Return to..." adventure (though a very good book in its own right).
Does anyone know if there is a "Return to The Barrier Peaks" in the works?
If I had the time...
The d20 system should make that conversion pretty easy - but I don't play any of the modern d20 systems, so I couldn't do it justice.
M
Creative Director
|
Does anyone know if there is a "Return to The Barrier Peaks" in the works?
If there is, I wish them luck! A few years ago, Erik and I were toying with the possibility of updating this adventure in issue #112 of Dungeon. When it became apparent that doing so would requrie something on the order of a 200-page magazine, we decided to switch to a smaller adventure and insted updated Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure for that issue.
Still... we did manage to sneak the froghemoth back into the game, so at least THAT much got updated.
I played Keep on the Borderlands quite a few times in its original form but upgraded Return to the Keep on the Borderlands (here after simply Return) to start my most recent campaign campaign - in fact my players just got the scare of their life yesterday by the Geletinous Cube in Cave G. Though its not a totally faithful conversion - there were some modifications in the conversion to 3.5 - including reworking the map into 3D using Gimp).
I think both versions have some strong and weak points. One of the things I don't like in Return was that the module focused a little to much on humans and undead. One of the strengths of the original was that each individual cave was kind of a mini adventure. Here thats still some what the case but human bandits plus human clerics is to many humans for this adventure and then we get undead Necromancers, Undead...umm...skeleton and zombie leader things finally theres more undead under control of the Clerics. Sure hope your players just love fighting zombies and skeletons...again and again. They are freaken everywhere.
Another problem with Return is its friggen hard and 3.5 kind of makes it tougher. Of course it will get easier in a hurry as your players will level faster - but if they enter many of the caves at 1st level their goose is cooked. Even at 2nd a lot of the creatures are very tough and even the weak ones are pretty tough with their better corodinated tactics. I came within a hairs breadth of a TPK in the goblin caves when the Hobgoblins started getting criticals left and right. Only the fact that I had handed out 5 poitions of cure light wounds for free at start kept that down to one dead character and they used every potion in that one encounter.
OK on to the good points. Its much more fleshed out in terms of bad guy tactics and personality (except the armies of undead skeletons and zombies...they just sort of don't flesh out easily). The Kobolds in the complex (with some added bits from yours truely) drove my players friggen insane. They ate all their mules, tried to kill them with swarms etc. etc.
It was like DM paradise everytime the party finished a foray and came back out to find their mules once again absconded with and presumably turned into mule steaks by critters with little clawed footprints.
The large Laberynth that interconected the entire complex was really cool as well. Much better then the tiny little waren of the orginal.
If I were to do it again I might split the difference. No need to have two Orc lairs for example and maybe one can live with the Hobgoblins and Goblins living together (or more acuratly that might be more interesting then them living apart) but I'd bring the Gnolls back. Also make sure you have decided in advance what to do with the Dragon Egg the Kobolds have. I'm allowing the party Mage to keep it as a familier (once it gets around to hatching...which will take place around the time he turns level 3) by expending a feat and getting only Empathic Link with the Dragon (if and until he turns 10th level - then it converts to a full fledged familier). This of course has the Mage player walking on clouds (which is OK - mages are a tad weak in 3.5 ... this will spice up things considerably). But of course its a good idea to think about what you want before a Dragons Egg falls into the hands of your players.
Finally I found that the treasure in the caves was actually pretty close to what ones supposed to get in 3.5. But its really boom and bust. Some of my players were 3rd level and could still not afford to significantly upgarde their armour and weapons. I was on the verge of a player revolt...then they hit the motherload in Cave G followed quickly by the Dragon Egg. It was like a lottery.
Return to the Keep on the Borderlands sucked, plain and simple... this module give Gargolye a run for it's money as the worst excrement ever published as a module. The orignal was much better.
Return to White Plume mountain was very interesting, but I have to say fell just a shade short of the first one, although it was much longer and more detailed.
Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, was not very good, it both changed the storyline in bizzare ways seemingly for no reason, and was incredibly hack and slash intensive.
Return to the Tomb of Horrors was an excelent module, the onlty one that I feel was actually better then the original(if simply because there was more purpose to it).
Against the Giants: The liberation of Geoff... I am not sure if this is realy a "return to" module, although it is a redoing sort of... I thought it was too vague in a lot of areas to be all that effective... it seemed more of a campaign book then an adventure, and it was definatly work intensive for the DM.
Slavers was decent, but again it was more like a campaign book then a module, lots of work for the DM to do to make it all come together.
|
Does anyone know if there is a "Return to The Barrier Peaks" in the works?
If I had the time...
The d20 system should make that conversion pretty easy - but I don't play any of the modern d20 systems, so I couldn't do it justice.
M
I thought at the end of Barrier Peaks, the space ship takes off...I coould have remembered this wrong, so dont quote me.
However there is nothing that says it couldnt have landed somewhere else on Oerth. Maybe the sea of dust?***Thats an interesting turn of events--walks away muttering to himself***