So last Friday my group got to the fight with the Faceless One in 3FoE. He was aware the group was coming (both the eyes and his acolytes informed him). So he cast his defense spells and waited with his rod held aloft ready to cast Summon Monster III. The door to the room flys open and we roll initiative. The Faceless One gets a 25, so I think all is going well until the rogue rolls a 26 (she has a +11 on initiative). She quickly crosses the room and sneak attacks. Critical. She deals a decent amount of Vitality damage (optional rule from Unearthed Arcana) fituguing him, but not stunning him. Now it's his turn. He attempts to cast defensively to summon the huge centipede, hoping to separate the rogue from the rest of the group. Notice I said attempts, because I rolled a 2 so the spell fails. Next the monk comes in and smacks the Faceless One good. The cleric and the wizards attack doing a little damage. It comes back to the Faceless one who notices that the party is positioned perfect to all be captured in a web spell. Casting defensively again (he is now threatened by two opponents) he attempts to web the party. Yep failed again with a 3. Needly to say, the Faceless One went down pretty easy. It was still a lot of fun. :)
The door to the room flys open and we roll initiative. The Faceless One gets a 25, so I think all is going well until the rogue rolls a 26 (she has a +11 on initiative). She quickly crosses the room and sneak attacks.
I'm confused- The Faceless One knew they were coming... watched the door fly open... watched the Rogue run across the room and it was a Sneak Attack?!?
Zuh?
Was he carrying a sign that said "DON'T LOOK HERE"?
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I'm confused- The Faceless One knew they were coming... watched the door fly open... watched the Rogue run across the room and it was a Sneak Attack?!?
Zuh?
Was he carrying a sign that said "DON'T LOOK HERE"?
Even if a character is aware of the attackers, he's still flat-footed before he acts in combat for the first time. So basically, even though he was watching the door, the rogue busted in so fast he didn't have time to react. I've lost quite a few favorite NPCs from a terrible initiative roll ruining my carefully laid plans.
I guess I would've treated it as if he were holding an action and not flat footed. My bad I guess.
I guess I would've treated it as if he were holding an action and not flat footed. My bad I guess.
Yeah he knew they were coming, but not the exact time they would open the door. So action basically came down to initiative, which the rogue got higher. On top of that the rogue has the Quick Recognoiter (sp?) feat which allows a spot an listen check as a free action, so she can determine the situation very quickly. This group is based around stealth and quick decisive actions, so this kind of opening to a fight is not uncommon. My terrible rolls is ultimately what made it as easy as it was.
Why did he have to make a Concentration check if he was using a rod?
It was a meta-magic rod to augment his Summon Monster III spell, so he was actually casting.
I would say that should of been handled differently. He should of had an action readied, not waiting for them to roll init. Basically saying: "When the door opens I blast the lightning bolt I have prepared into it" Or summons the critter, etc. The rogue should of never been able to sneak attack him. Maybe get a swing off, but not a sneak attack. He was waiting for the door to open.
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I too wish to question why initiative was rolled when the Faceless One knew they were coming, he should have had a ready-action. PCs time and time again get away with the, "I shoot when the door opens" action and this was a great time for the Faceless One to ready his action. I also disagree with the rogue getting sneak attack, but to each DM their own.
I personally dont see an issue with the way it was done. I dont know the amount of time that passed between the faceless one being made aware that the party was coming but regardless... If the door was closed and the party rushed through it... he could has still lost the initative and got jumped by the rogue. If you think that is untoward go stand and stare at a shut door and tell a friend of yours ok sometime in the next half hour I want to you come charging through that at me... see if you get surprised (winks)
Very true- however, I think the general idea was implied that the party did not wait around, but rushed right into the room ASAP. The Faceless One can easily have a readied action and not need to roll initiative- at least, not until after the Nasty Spell has been cast, which also makes him no longer flat footed. THe rules support this- there's no limit to how long someone can keep readying an action- if they fail at a die roll, then you can explain it as "the elapsed time was too much and you were caught off guard anyway".
Even more storyline basis for supporting his long ready action- the Faceless One is a high priest of Vecna in one of His ancient lairs! The rules don't say anything about it specifically, but I figure good ol' One-hand, One-eyed, flying purple PC eater would give his minion a head's up, especially as he's the god of secrets and all. I try to take a more fluid approach to the game, using things like that to explain away some of the logic problems that often pop up.
I guess the reason I didn't have him readied was that was some time between when he was warned and when the players opened the door. Not so much time that he wasn't willing to cast he defensive spells that lasted hours, but there was some time. He got his first warning from the eyes which were on one side of his room. The second warning was from an acolyte who was just below his room (the party is stealthy so the acolytes didn't know what hit them). For this reason the Faceless One had idea which door they were coming through. His readied action would have been more likely to more to which ever corner was oposite where they came in then hoped he got initiative to cast the spell. It doesn't bother me one way or the other if they took him out fast. Good for them. The players felt very good about how it went because they used tactics and planned ahead. While it may have not seemed challenging from a mechanics stand point, the real challenge for the players was the strategy. That's how they like to play these characters.
I think that it was played correctly, but for the wrong reasons.
You can only ready a standard action. Summon Monster III takes a full round action to cast.
It was done right.
You cannot ready an action outside of combat. Combat does not start until initive is rolled.
So he knew they were coming, but not exactly when. Now normally, if he knew they were coming and the party didn't, then he could have gotten a surprise round, then initive could have been rolled.
He just came up against a party that also knew he was getting ready for them.
So, I'm guessing that the PCs will not be able to ready an action and fire when the door opens, in the future. Just a thought, but you might want to remember this for future use, and the fact that maybe the priest knows how long it takes to cast his spells and might use something more appropriate to his wisdom and/or intelligence.
Very true- however, I think the general idea was implied that the party did not wait around, but rushed right into the room ASAP. The Faceless One can easily have a readied action and not need to roll initiative- at least, not until after the Nasty Spell has been cast, which also makes him no longer flat footed. THe rules support this- there's no limit to how long someone can keep readying an action- if they fail at a die roll, then you can explain it as "the elapsed time was too much and you were caught off guard anyway".
Actually, the rules don't really support this position. You specifically cannot ready actions outside of an initiative order. To quote the PHB on special initiative actions (including readied actions): "Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order." That language means they can't be used outside of combat.
This is a question that used to come up a lot in my games: when can you ready an action, when are you surprised, and when should you roll initiative to start combat? After an intense reading of the rules and a little experience, I was finally able to figure it out.
One caveat though: the following is just what I use in my games. I think it is in the spirit of what the rules really mean, but I can't back it all up with specific rules text. I do think it’s the best way to handle these situations.
Combat (or initiative order) begins when 1 of the following conditions are met. Either both sides are aware of the other side and want to act at the same time, or one side is aware of the other side, and takes an action (or actions if there are multiple people) that will make the other side aware of them and also make both sides subsequently want to act at the same time.
The first case is the typical start of combat in a dungeon, both sides become aware of the opponent at the same time, roll initiative, and start fighting. It can also happen during dialogue; as soon as both sides want to act at once, you should roll initiative.
The second case is usually when people try to ready actions outside of combat. They know an opponent is coming, the opponent is unaware of them, and they want to shoot him as soon as he steps in view (the "readied" action). D&D uses a different mechanic to resolve this situation, however, and that is the surprise round.
Sometimes, it can be a little fuzzy exactly when you should award a surprise round to an ambusher, and when it should come down to initiative. Generally, there are three questions I ask myself.
Can they both see (or otherwise pinpoint) each other? If one side is undetectable, the other side is almost always surprised.
Were both sides aware of each other before the other side came into view? If one side knows that someone is about to come around that corner, and the other one has no idea anyone was waiting for him, then the side that was unaware is surprised, even if he can see his attacker at the same time his attacker could see him.
If both sides were aware of each other before they could see each other, did they both know what they wanted to do to the other party before they could see them? This is probably the fuzziest question, and it often boils down to how much information each side has about the other. It is easy to say that both sides know they want to attack the other, but sometimes that is easier said than done. If the you go through a door or around a corner to enter into a room you have never seen before to fight an enemy you have never laid eyes on, you probably don't really know what you want to do when you enter the room, you simply don't have enough information. However, if you know there is an enemy wizard on the other side of that door, you have seen him before, you know that he will be standing in the back half of a fairly large room, it is probably fair to say that you know exactly what you want to do.
If the answer to the three above questions was yes, then there should be no surprise round, (and no readied actions either). If both sides know the other one is there, and see each other at the same time, and want to act at the same time (presumably to attack each other) then that is what the initiative roll is for, to see who gets to go first. Mechanically speaking, there is no reason (in the rules) that one side or the other should be considered flat-footed just because they were the ones moving.
In the above example, both sides could see each other. While the characters probably knew there was an enemy somewhere in that room, unless they has made some sort of Listen check or cast some sort of divination spell, they probably had no idea what kind of enemy they were facing, where he was in the room, or what he was capable of. In this case while the answers to the first two questions were probably yes, the answer to the third one was almost certainly no, so I would have given the Faceless One a surprise round to act against the characters. During this round, he could have cast any regular spell (a summon spell is a little fuzzy, he probably could have started to cast it though, see the rules for using a standard action to start and complete a full-round action). After he completed the surprise round, everyone would have rolled initiative normally. If he won, he would have been able to complete his summon spell normally, or cast another spell if he had simply cast a regular spell with his surprise action.
In any case, it was never necessary for him to ready an action. Nor should he have been allowed to, until initiative started.
I think that it was played correctly, but for the wrong reasons.
You can only ready a standard action. Summon Monster III takes a full round action to cast.
Thanks Chris, I totally forgot about the fact that Summon spells are full round actions.
I really wasn't expecting this to turn into a rules tread. I just wanted to report how report how tactics and some luck (both good and bad) can really change how a battle goes. Thanks for everyone's input.
Given the tactical situation--that the intruding party appeared to be penetrating the compound swiftly and would arrive soon, why didn't the Faceless One just summon the monstrous centipede and send it out the door? That way he would have time to cast the full-round action spell, and could then follow the centipede into action ready to cast his other offensive spells at them while they're dealing with the big monster.
Nothing says the "boss" has to wait in his inner sanctum and wait for the party to bust in on him, if he knows they're coming! Plus, with a 15 foot "space," the centipede is going to be "squeezed" if he fights in the laboratory (which is what the text says he is supposed to do), unless he crawls all over the lab tables and wrecks the in-progress experiments. If I were the Faceless One I might hide in the lab to buff up, but I would try to avoid tearing the place apart by holding a melee inside it. If I'm ready and I've got an idea where the intruders are, I'm going to take them on in the inner sanctum.