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One minor error in the Lords of Dust article in Dragon #337: The DR for the Overlords is listed as 40/magic; this should actually be DR 20/epic.
An Overlord is roughly equivalent to a lesser deity, and the DR was originally 40/+4; DR 20/Epic is the recommended 3.5 conversion.
Thanks Keith!
Yes, thanks Keith! I thought 40/Magic was a little high... ;p
Excellent. Thanks, Keith.
I take it, too, that the example Overlord, Sul Khatesh, essentially had Divine Rank 7? Also, if you have the time to answer another question: did you consider some of her special abilities (such as Change Form, Know Secrets, Mystical Force, Terrible Vision) equivalent to Salient Divine Abilities?
I take it, too, that the example Overlord, Sul Khatesh, essentially had Divine Rank 7?
Essentially. But she can't grant spells, she doesn't have a godly realm, and she doesn't have access to divine salient abilities, despite having powers that mimic them. The overlords are beings with the power to rival gods: but technically they AREN'T gods, just extremely powerful spirits.
Also, if you have the time to answer another question: did you consider some of her special abilities (such as Change Form, Know Secrets, Mystical Force, Terrible Vision) equivalent to Salient Divine Abilities?
Similar to and based upon, sure. Change Form and Mystical Force actually combine the effects of a number of salient abilities. So again, she's not a god - but she has a similar level of power to the manifestation of a god in another setting.
i really like the idea of beings as tough as gods but not actually gods. :)
One last question, Keith, if that's okay...
What creation guidelines did you use when you created Sul Khatesh? Did you use epic saves and base attack bonus progressions? If so, did you apply them after the 20 outsider hit die or after 20 class levels? How did you decide which abilities were "appropriate" or "balanced" for her?
I'm fascinated by the whole creation process, so any enlightenment you might have would be great! Thanks again!
Shouldn't Sul Khatesh's Armor Class be 58 (-1 size, +9 Dex, +7 infernal, +20 natural, +13 deflection), touch 38, flat-footed 49?
I thought Eberron wasn't supposed to have super high-level NPCs? Am I just misremembering, or was that part of its original design plan?
I thought Eberron wasn't supposed to have super high-level NPCs? Am I just misremembering, or was that part of its original design plan?
The Overlords aren't NPCs per se, more like plot devices. Like artifacts or campaign history, they are a part of the setting, and can be used to fuel adventures.
My thought, anyway.
It's super high-level NPC Heroes, or NPC Allies. Entities like Vol, the Dragons, the daelkyr and the Rajah are definitely high-level NPCs. NPC allies usually are only high level if they are somehow limited in their freedom of movement, such as the Great Druid Oalian (awakened tree; technically mobile, but prefers to stay rooted) or the Keeper of the Flame Jaela (11-year old girl; loses most of her powers outside of Flamekeep).
Oh, I see.
Oh, I see.Of course, some newer books don't quite follow that idea. There was a huge outburst on the Wizards boards about a cleric capable of resurrection "on demand".
Figures. "Power creep" is a strange thing. It seems to affect a lot of game worlds. White Wolf's World of Darkness games were especially known for it. And Forgotten Realms, of course. It's kind of fun in a "gawking at an auto accident" sort of way to read through the various FR suppliments and see how much more powerful Elminster got with each passing accessory. He went from a high (15-20 level, I think) wizard-sage in the original boxed set to a 40+ level monster with a whole suite of special god powers who can pimp-slap Cthulhu and get away with it in the newest book. :)
Why this happens, I have no idea. Maybe one writer creates a game option that is just a little more powerful than what came before (possibly without really meaning to) and then future writers feel like the ante has been upped somehow and they need to top the last guy? And so on and so on. I dunno.
Actually, Elminster was listed in the Old Grey Boxed set as a 26th level wizard. When 2nd edition came around he was listed as a 29th level wizard in the Heroes Lorebook. In second edition we also got info about the Chosen of Mystra, which gives him some more powers. In third edition his caster level still around 29th level, they just added his fighter, rogue, and cleric levels to his stats as well, which were downplayed since in 2nd edition, dual classes didn't amount to as much as they do in 3rd level.
I guess my point is, 26th level was still pretty powerful in 1st edition. Now if you were going to talk about uber powerful characters, I thought you might bring up Larloch (42nd level lich).
"Now if you were going to talk about uber powerful characters, I thought you might bring up Larloch (42nd level lich)."
I guess that's the difference between villains and other NPCs. Villians can be crazy powerful because they're supposed to be able to challenge a whole pack of heroes at once. It's only when you have NPC heroes that can challenge a whole pack of villains that you have a potential problem. :)
Ditto. I brought this up before to riotous silence. Nothing can dampen the fun of a campaign world like the power creep. FR is a perfect example. It seemed that every new supplement that detailed an area told you about how this area had another couple of epic level guys. If you actually put it all together, there is a truly staggering amount of high level dudes. It created what I call the Dragonlance problem: Why do they need me then? If the Heroes of the Lance or the local epic level guy can fix any problem, I don't matter. Villains are different, I agree.
That's what I have always loved about Greyhawk. There is a much smaller group of high level guys, most of whom I can name off the top of my head, and there is not a "magic shop" or NPC caster in every damn city to fix everything.
Eberron, I think, handles magic in a more realistic fashion, and I expect alot of magic because of the setting, but it doesn't make it seem less speical; it is part of the flavor. I like that there are tons of places to go, and lots to do, and no uberNPCs waiting to ruin your day.
...how much more powerful Elminster got with each passing accessory. He went from a high (15-20 level, I think) wizard-sage in the original boxed set to a 40+ level monster with a whole suite of special god powers who can pimp-slap Cthulhu and get away with it in the newest book. :)
ROFLMAO! You made me snark soda through my nose. But it's okay - I have to agree.
I don't like using high-level NPCs too much - awfully deus ex machina. They're mostly their for research and information, a lot of them are retired adventurers. Cail, a former paladin of Lathander, went on a crusade to Thay and was never the same afterwards. He's now just a quiet temple priest would could kick serious gluteous maximus, but has chosen not to.
High level NPCs are like hot sauce - use sparingly. (Unless of course, your campaign can take the heat. :-D )
Shouldn't Sul Khatesh's Armor Class be 58 (-1 size, +9 Dex, +7 infernal, +20 natural, +13 deflection), touch 38, flat-footed 49?
Yes. Not sure how that got by both me and the editors.
What creation guidelines did you use when you created Sul Khatesh? Did you use epic saves and base attack bonus progressions? If so, did you apply them after the 20 outsider hit die or after 20 class levels?
I used epic saves, BAB, class abilities, etc after her first 20 class levels. Her abilities are largely patterned on divine salient abilities.
I thought Eberron wasn't supposed to have super high-level NPCs? Am I just misremembering, or was that part of its original design plan?
Others have really hit this on the head. The primary goal was to have few high-level allies and fewer high-level characters just hanging around cities. NPCs typically use NPC classes, and a 12th-level character is a big deal - so finding someone who can cast 7th level spells for you is a big deal. My personal goal has always been to have a world where it is ultimately clear that the PCs are the heroes of the age: for all her power, the Keeper of the Flame can't leave Flamekeep, and if the Tarrasque assaults Sharn, it's in your hands.
However, heroes are measured by the vilains they face. So high-level villains are out there. Of course some of the dangerous villains of the age start at lower levels (The Lord of Blades is suggested at 12th)... with the idea that they will increase in power as the PCs do. Doctor Doom is always a match for the Fantastic Four; they don't end up being four levels higher than him a few issues into the comic.
And, of course, Sul Khatesh is imprisoned and her release should be a grave threat to Khorvaire - she's not just hangin' around. It's up to the DM to decide whether he wants to unleash such a threat on the world, and how the party might face such a mighty opponent.