I was so close, killed 4 out of 6 PCs! The party of 6 (one is currently a Doppelganger) were all grappled by the Mimics in the Sodden Hold in The Hall of Harsh Reflections. The PCs were all taking tons of crush damage. As they were finally breaking free and healing, 4 of them drank the worm-laced potions from Encounter at Blackwall Keep. Within rounds I had 4 dead PCs arisen as Spawn of Kyuss, a Doppleganger-controlled PC and 1 badly wounded PC. I haven't had this much fun is years.
Okay . . . I could really take some flak for this . . but if you idea of entertainment is to kill the PC's . . I pity you.
As a DM, I think that the best satisfaction I can get is when my player's succeed in over-coming the challenges I plan. It's good to make it challenging, but a complete party wipe . . . not good.
Now, as a means of salvaging your game . . . I'd suggest that when you get to D15 . . . have it be found out that all the PC's were kidnapped. that'd allow the four who died to re-gain their characters.
I haven't had this much fun is years.
Did the players have fun?
William, you were right about catching flak. I for one am completely opposed to "coddling" players. I'm a tough DM. I enjoy and gloat and laugh maniacally like the worst villain when my players do something stupid or walk into a carefully laid trap or what have you and end up paying the price for it. That's part of your role as the DM. Which is what makes it all the more satisfying when the players work together and foil those plans each week.
It's a careful balancing act: insuring that the players are having fun and the campaign continues vs. crushing them to goo! A great DM has tons of ranks in Balance. And there's nothing wrong with a DM enjoying himself when things that "could" happen actually "do" happen. We rarely get to enjoy those moments because players are so damnably unpredictable.
I don't know if that balance is being maintained in our original poster's game. If his players had fun despite what happened then I'd have to say it is.
Okay . . . I could really take some flak for this . . but if you idea of entertainment is to kill the PC's . . I pity you.
As a DM, I think that the best satisfaction I can get is when my player's succeed in over-coming the challenges I plan. It's good to make it challenging, but a complete party wipe . . . not good.
Now, as a means of salvaging your game . . . I'd suggest that when you get to D15 . . . have it be found out that all the PC's were kidnapped. that'd allow the four who died to re-gain their characters.
Don't get me wrong, I also take great pleasure when my players are sucessful. However, they have been quite sucessful over the past year. I do encourage an adversarial relationship between DM and players. I believe it makes us both try harder. But please be assured I am very fair with them. I never have to fudge to make it challenging for them, though in the past I have fudged to allow them to live. In response to this, some of the players complained that the lack of threat of death took the mystery out of the game. I had to agree, as a player I am too cocky and foolhardy if I don't have a genuine fear of death.
In the current Adventure Path, my PCs, until this past session, have been quite lucky. It was nice to see an unintended situation (the worm-laced potions) complicate a already dangerous situation (the mimics).I do like your idea of allowing the PCs to come back in D15, one of my players took the lose too hard, more so than anyone ever expected.
I haven't had this much fun is years.Did the players have fun?
All but one of the players had great fun. It is still a mystery to them about where the worms came from in the middle of a mimic fight.
However, one player took it too hard. Almost on the verge of tears about losing a character. Perhaps I am too jaded, but it's just a piece of paper. We thought our group was made of sterner stuff.
Anyway, my point to all this is that you are correct and probably taking the high road. It's a poor (and probably short) campaign indeed whose purpose to destroy the fun of the players. On the other hand, everyone's got to let the evil DM out once in a while, and as far as train...
Greg, I think our campaign will last a long time. Our group has played weekly for 4 years. I am 1 of 4 DMs in the group of 7. I am known for playing a "realistic" but fun and fair game. What I mean by "realistic" is that I play a Faerun with a all-level, target-rich environment. Depending on the choices and turns you make, a 1st-level party but come face to face with an unwinnable CR 12 encounter. No all encounters are meantt to be won by the PCs. I don't "rail" my players. I do try to gently nudge them.
However, one player took it too hard. Almost on the verge of tears about losing a character. Perhaps I am too jaded, but it's just a piece of paper. We thought our group was made of sterner stuff.
I disagree with this 'it's just a piece of paper' quote. Players invest a lot of time and energy in their character creation and choices they make through out the game. They start to enjoy the character and make plans for it's future progression. There is a huge emotional attachment for some people and when a factor they felt they had no control over, seemingly at random kills their character, they can get quite ticked off.
At least when their character died heroically battling the Huge Red Dragon or was ambushed while sneaking into the King's Chambers, the ultimate reason they died (apart from dice rolls etc) was that they put their character in harms way on purpose and therefore they 'own' their characters death.
Anyway, this is just my $1.25¢ on character attachment :D
B
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... There is a huge emotional attachment for some people and when a factor they felt they had no control over, seemingly at random kills their character, they can get quite ticked off.
Lol...it can make a DM feel bad too. 3 weeks ago, I was running a game where the party ran into Derro...the first indication theya re in danger is when a 'Hail of Stones' spell rolls two 20's and then a crit with the ranged attack....we play with instant kill threat and 'blam' down goes the 4th level half orc barbarian. We roll dice 90% of the time out in the open and this time the orc died...his player tried to think of every way out of the situation...porr guy, I felt for him but it would not have been fair to say he somehow survived when everyone there new the rules we were playing under....
we play with instant kill threat and 'blam' down goes the 4th level half orc barbarian.
What is an "instant kill threat?"
MI
Okay . . . I could really take some flak for this . . but if you idea of entertainment is to kill the PC's . . I pity you.
As a DM, I think that the best satisfaction I can get is when my player's succeed in over-coming the challenges I plan. It's good to make it challenging, but a complete party wipe . . . not good.
Now where did I put that anti-aircraft gun...
I agree that players become attached to their characters and it can hurt to loose them - but just giving the characters constant get out of jail free cards is no solution.
Loosing a character is supposed to hurt - thats one of the things that makes the game exciting and enjoyable. The chance of failure and the risk of defeat are a big part of nearly any game we play outside of RPGs and in most cases there is a reason for that. Excitement comes from the challenge and the risk of failure - it gets us pumped and makes our victories ever so much sweeter.
In regards to RPGs most of the time the players 'win'. They accomplish the mission the get the treasure and XP etc. Every so often they 'loose' and their characters pay the price.
I bet almost any good campaign is more or less rigged that way - the encounters seem tough but the players usually have all sorts of aces up their sleeves (Players hoarde life saving magic like squirrels hoarde nuts). The odd nasty turn of events is needed to remind them of the dangers inherent in their characters career choice - and more importantly to make sure that their triumphs keep their lustre - if you always win and the DM makes sure that this happens then your victories will come to lack lustre.
Your players are going to come out on top significantly more often then not but its their occasional defeats that insure that these triumphs are truly emotionally satisfying experiences and not ho-hum events.
Amen, brother.
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While a TPK is generally to be avoided...a NEAR MISS TPK can be one of the best things ever in a D&D session.
The point of the possibility of mass player death is that it makes it all seem more real - the danger more immediate.
Here's an example from my Age of Worms campaign:
The party of five adventurers (including a kick ass 1st level fighter and a very strong warmage) is in the False Tomb and triggers the horde encounter and 2 mad slashers (I upped the mad slasher count by 1, in retrospect - I overdid it a little).
Long story short: the PC cleric goes down to the slasher and the swarm. He's in the negs and fading. The party is hard pressed. They should have run - but only one did.
The result was that in a desperation move to destroy the swarm - burning oil was flung on the swarm - which meant pouring it over the dying cleric and setting it aflame by a mining helmet (on purpose). WOOF. Dead cleric.
As the rest of the party fell to the slashers - one by one - there were three in the negs (two dying, one stabilized). The kick-ass fighter (the only one who initially ran) was the last standing to fight both slashers. Both of the slashers were heavily wounded by this point. But - the slashers are mean.
The fighter was down to 6 hits. Realistically, one hit from a slasher would probably have dropped her and would have resulted in a TPK - but she kept going.
The other three Players were transfixed by the fight. The players stood to see her (and my) rolls and the atmosphere got tense. I roll in the open for D20. I don't use a screen.
The fighter prevailed and saved the party. As the last slasher fell, she made heal checks and administered potions. It was enough to stabilize the fallen and they escaped.
It could easily have been five dead and a very ugly end to the Age of Worms. But it wasn't. It was - instead - merely one dead and the rest of the players were high-fiving it when the fighter prevailed.
I've been playing D&D for nearly 27 years. Yes - there have been similar dramatic moments - but not many - and certainly not at first level. That session will stick in the group's mind for a long time to come.
Moral of the story: TPK sucks. But a narrowly avoided TPK rocks mightily. To get the thrill of that victory, you must risk the agony of that possible defeat. The more real and substantial that risk - the more enojoyable and satisfying the reward.
A TPK doesn't have to end a campaign. At low levels, there is often so little development that little is lost if a new batch of heroes enters the scene. At high levels, the PCs should have many friends and allies ready to take up the fight should they never return.
4 of them drank the worm-laced potions from Encounter at Blackwall Keep. Within rounds I had 4 dead PCs arisen as Spawn of Kyuss, a Doppleganger-controlled PC and 1 badly wounded PC.
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the worm laced potions have an incubation time of 1 day.
A fine thread due for resurrection :)
We had three near-TPK encounters during Kings of the Rift; since it was one of my player's last game before he moved out of state, I'm glad it turned out the way it did.
1) The cleric and most of the party were taken out in the first round of the fight against the Mother Worm, and they quickly retreated to re-think their strategy. If not for Revivify our party would have died several times over by now. Some fancy spell-work by the sorceror allowed her to grab the key single-handedly after they recovered.
2) The group decided not to rest during the dragon siege, instead pressing on to the Citadel of Weeping Dragons to claim the phylactery. Outside the Citadel they stopped to help fend off a wave of dragon attacks, only to retreat after the blue leader showed up. The group had been forced to split up after the dragons knocked a couple of them off the bridge... and the sorceror Dimension Door'd right under the Gelatinous Cube trap. She made her saves and DD'd back out, but it was a close call.
3) The group was immediately brought before the leader of the Citadel's defenders. Unbeknownst to the players, the giant had met with a group of psions who were pursuing the Rod of Seven Parts, and agreed to help them take down the players. The giant split up the party again, ambushing the weaker three members with the psion's party, which included the illithilich Zyrxog (who the players thought they killed in Hall of Harsh Reflections) and his new beholder minion. More than half the group had dropped *again, since none of them had rested and the casters were almost out of spells. After the druid rolled near-max damage on an empowered firestorm though, the room quickly thinned out. The group managed to take out the psions, subdue the giants, and claim not only Dragoth's phylactery, but also half the Rod of Seven Parts.
Weren't the worm-laced potions supposed to contain slow worms and not the regular Kyuss worms?
A TPK doesn't have to end a campaign.
Speaking from experience on an adventure path TPK, if you are running the campaign straight from the magazine as-is due to time constraints as a DM, do yourself a favor and spare your party from a TPK.
While not a campaign ender, a TPK (and the resulting new party born to continue the story) will damage some story lines/plot developments ingrained in future AP installments, to include some characters monologues to the PCs, which will be a pain in the butt to adjust on-the-fly.
Otherwise, a TPK is a lot of fun - just ask Pitchblade of the Champions Games! :)
My group nearly experienced a TPK in the Hextorite temple of Three Faces of Evil. They took too long to get to the main temple after encountering the Tiefling guards blocking the path to the cleric's chambers, allowing the clerics to all boost themselves to max power before the party came into the main hall and found themselves surrounded.
Four Tieflings firing crossbows, three clerics raining spells and two troglodyte zombies later, the NPC Paladin (Melinde') had taken three-times her HP total but was up due to the Cleric standing behind her while she hurled insults at the "cowardly Hextorites standing on their refuge." The Party's Fighter/Cleric was obliterated by the evil clerics' spells, and the Sorceress was Silenced due to a bad save early on. That left the Rogue, the Cleric, and the NPC Paladin to do much of the fighting while the silenced Sorceror fired crossbow bolts and the Fighter/Cleric lay there, bleeding.
Before it was over, none of the party had more than 10hp, the Fighter/Cleric was near death (-8 and then stabilized) and the entire crew was standing around breathing hard and thanking their gods that they were still alive...
Not a TPK in the sense that most of them were dead, but all it would have taken to kill any ONE of them was another hit. THAT is what I live for as a DM.
Make 'em bleed and EARN their victories. That way, when it's over, they know they could have died, but pulled through heroically.
Syrinx
While not a campaign ender, a TPK (and the resulting new party born to continue the story) will damage some story lines/plot developments ingrained in future AP installments, to include some characters monologues to the PCs, which will be a pain in the butt to adjust on-the-fly.
We haven't had a TPK yet. But if that situation should occur, I'd let the players start with a new party just as if they had been gone through the previous adventures with that party. So nothing of the story gets lost and the players aren't punished beside losing their old characters.
Eruvaer
In the last session of my slavers campaign, two of the PCs were in the negatives temporarily, and these two were the fighters (a monk and a half-orc barbarian/bard.) It looked like doom for the party, but the druidess had changed into an octopus (the fight takes place in a harbour), and with one tentacle touched the half orc and administered a cure critical, which I let succeed (cool action anyway, the druids shapechange saved the day more than once). Afterwards, the druidess/octopus rocked the boat of the slavers, calling for concentration checks for the spellcasters on board, and finally, she grappled the evil high priest from board of the ship, and dragged him under water, where he finally died from suffocation while trying to get free. (As he was a Priest of the Earth Dragon, it was clear that his luck ran out once he was in the water).
Meanwhile, the groups cleric managed to heal the monk back to positive numbers, and he just used his heal self ability to carry the fight on.
It was a close call, and with both main fighters down, it looked like a TPK in making, but at the end, the PCs prevailed and won the day. That was a memorable fight, and especially satisfiying as the player of the half orc is moving to LA to work there for at least the next five years.
Stefan
(spoiler)
We had a near-TPK last Tuesday in the Champions Belt while battling Frogemoth. Here´s how it goes:
The party was successfully fooled to power up on fire-spells etc and also powered up on their tank, the warforged fighter who was expected to deal with the frog singlehandly with some firepower support.
When Talabir made his speech the player noticed that he was about to steal time and made them waste some power-up spells, the warforged loosed his temper and charged (!) Talabir (not to attack but to threaten him). Actually it was a Zidane-like overacting that resulted in instant disqualification for him.
The rest of the party, now lacking both, the tank and offensive spells, completly looses the colour out of their faces and this was the point where I truly expected a TPK for them.
...
In the first one or two rounds of combat, it became obviously that all fire-based spells were nearly useless. The only other fighter was the cleric who will not stand more than one round in combat. Luckily the psion successfully spelled Crisis of Breath with a very unlucky save by the frog and this sends him down after the stupid monster made another jump. A coup-de-grace by the bard gave the rest.
Define near TPK.
I've had about 8 encounters so far in AoW (halfway through HoHR) in which two or more party members were downed or somehow taken out of the combat at once, a situation which makes a party extremely vulnerable unless the enemy is also on his last legs. Three of the four party members have cure ability, though, and they tend to stock up on cure wounds wands, a fact which has seriously saved their bacon in several grim-looking situations.
Had a "shoulda been one" against Filge, off all things. The party couldn't fight their way through the zombies and the bugbear laid two of them out. Filge took out a 3rd one and could have had the 4th, but I let the wizard negotiate a retreat (by threatening harm to Filge's spellbook) taking the only breathing party member with him.
Both those survivors are now dead, as well.