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I guess I'll write off the first version of this post that the board decided to eat as a draft :(
Slightly ranty, perhaps more so as I'm having to retype this!
The Overload contains a Greyhawk conversion appendix.
Why?
Given that AoW is essentially set in Greyhawk, and that GH is (in theory at least) the core setting, what's the point of a few cosmetic changes? Is this all the Greyhawk is in 3rd edition -- a collection of proper nouns?
I'm not saying that there should be deep ties to the GH setting that would hamper people from converting to other settings.
Indeed, given the time & effort Paizo are in AoW it absolutely makes sense that it should be easily adaptable to, say, FR and Ebberon (which given the level of coverage it gets in Dungeon and Dragon, and the number of supplements WotC puts out for it must be a far more popular setting than I realised).
Rather, why bother with making the original changes, what does it add to not call Greyhawk Greyhawk and Tenser Tenser. These names may not be relevant to the FR (or wherever) but is it really that much harder for someone converting AoW to translate "Greyhawk" into "Waterdeep" than to so translate "The Free City"?
I guess I'll write off the first version of this post that the board decided to eat as a draft :(
Slightly ranty, perhaps more so as I'm having to retype this!
The Overload contains a Greyhawk conversion appendix.
Why?
Given that AoW is essentially set in Greyhawk, and that GH is (in theory at least) the core setting, what's the point of a few cosmetic changes? Is this all the Greyhawk is in 3rd edition -- a collection of proper nouns?
I'm not saying that there should be deep ties to the GH setting that would hamper people from converting to other settings.
Indeed, given the time & effort Paizo are in AoW it absolutely makes sense that it should be easily adaptable to, say, FR and Ebberon (which given the level of coverage it gets in Dungeon and Dragon, and the number of supplements WotC puts out for it must be a far more popular setting than I realised).
Rather, why bother with making the original changes, what does it add to not call Greyhawk Greyhawk and Tenser Tenser. These names may not be relevant to the FR (or wherever) but is it really that much harder for someone converting AoW to translate "Greyhawk" into "Waterdeep" than to so translate "The Free City"?
Good pernts! (That's one of my dialects dude, pay it no mind. ; D )
Creative Director
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The short answer to this is: By replacing a couple of key names that are easilly identifiable as Greyhawk names with less world-specific names, it makes it easier for the casual reader to accept the fact that the entire Age of Worms Adventure Path can be run in any game world.
As it is, Age of Worms is incredibly easy to fit into the World of Greyhawk. the fact that the Greyhawk conversion notes are as short as they are should testify to this. The fact that Erik Mona and I are the ones who organized the adventuers should also testify to this (even though my contributions to Greyhawk lore are dwarfed by Overlord Mona's).
The short answer to this is: By replacing a couple of key names that are easilly identifiable as Greyhawk names with less world-specific names, it makes it easier for the casual reader to accept the fact that the entire Age of Worms Adventure Path can be run in any game world.
As it is, Age of Worms is incredibly easy to fit into the World of Greyhawk. the fact that the Greyhawk conversion notes are as short as they are should testify to this. The fact that Erik Mona and I are the ones who organized the adventuers should also testify to this (even though my contributions to Greyhawk lore are dwarfed by Overlord Mona's).
Also good pernts! It's a draw!! :) So basically, AOW is biased towards the Greyhawk Campaign setting. Nothing wrong with that mind you, I'm just making an observation.
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Creative Director
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Also good pernts! It's a draw!! :) So basically, AOW is biased towards the Greyhawk Campaign setting. Nothing wrong with that mind you, I'm just making an observation.
Heh... yup! Biased in the same way that Ramsey Campbell's Severn Valley stories are biased toward Lovecraft's mythos.
If that didn't make sense, you need to read more Ramsey Campbell.
Basically: Age of Worms is pretty Greyhawk-Friendly.
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AND I LOVE IT...although my girlfriend is now making me take her out for beers, because I was busy downloading and reading it around dinner time...maybe she'll get drunk...and I'll get lucky twice in one day, although the Overload will have to be 2nd....( in best Butthead voice ) huh..huh...huh...he said over load...huh...
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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what does it add to not call Greyhawk Greyhawk and Tenser Tenser. These names may not be relevant to the FR (or wherever) but is it really that much harder for someone converting AoW to translate "Greyhawk" into "Waterdeep" than to so translate "The Free City"?
I shouldn't have thought so, but it wasn't up to me. :)
--Erik
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what does it add to not call Greyhawk Greyhawk and Tenser Tenser. These names may not be relevant to the FR (or wherever) but is it really that much harder for someone converting AoW to translate "Greyhawk" into "Waterdeep" than to so translate "The Free City"?I shouldn't have thought so, but it wasn't up to me. :)
--Erik
First impressions are important. Hooking people in to a certain mindset is not always an exercise in logic, it's an exercise in sales. The two are not necessarily equivalent.
Actually - my biggest issue right now is where I will run AoW. I am not inclined for a Procrustean hack of the plot to put it into Krynn.
I have not run Greyhawk since...1979 or so? FR - never have. Eberron - never will :)
I think I'm partial to Greyhawk for nostalgia factor. And I got these 4 big maps a while back you see...
Well I find the inclusion of proper nouns like Dragotha, Kyuss (yes, he's a GH original), Zeech, and even Diamond Lake itself to be very definitively Greyhawk, I still wonder at the sole indiscretion of re-naming Tenser Manzorian (of course, Manzorian is a cool name, so that by itself is almost a good reason). I mean, the only reason people might be able to more easily identify with Tenser is because he has spells named after him in the PH. But I would think that would be a selling point! I mean, lots of newbies to D&D who first started playing in 3rd edition could be playing along in this Age of Worms campaign their all-knowing GM is running and suddenly they hear a name they recognize. "Tenser," they say with enthusiasm, "hey I know a spell that guy wrote. Awesome! Now we can actually meet this brilliant mastermind!" and thus the game becomes more real for them. Anyway, that's my take on it. Manzorian will definitely be Tenser in my AoW campaign. But now I'm concerned about the retroactive continuity I'm gonna have to establish because one of my PCs was an apprentice to Allustan, and through a lot of role-playing the PC has learned that "Manzorian" was Allustan's former mentor. *Sigh* Oh well. At least the AoW is a great campaign (thus far).
Also good pernts! It's a draw!! :) So basically, AOW is biased towards the Greyhawk Campaign setting. Nothing wrong with that mind you, I'm just making an observation.Heh... yup! Biased in the same way that Ramsey Campbell's Severn Valley stories are biased toward Lovecraft's mythos.
If that didn't make sense, you need to read more Ramsey Campbell.
Basically: Age of Worms is pretty Greyhawk-Friendly.
Personally I liked Greyhawk, the Free City I mean, I dunno about the campaign setting.
I never even realized that important personages might get their name changed. I mean Dragotha was allowed. So When I read about Manzorian I in 124 I was thinking, this guy sounds a lot like a cirle of eight member --did I miss some Living Greyhawk thing where they got new members or is this another secret cabal of mages living in Greyhawk City doing the exact same stuff as the cirle of eight.
I am relieved that Manzorian is Tenser...one less trifle to worry about, although if Allutsan broke with Tenser 10 years ago that puts that happening at CY585 which is just when the last Tenser clone got rescued from Tuerny, and of course tenser was effectively dead for a year before that...
So Allustan broke off his apprenticeship with Tenser after Tenser game back from the dead and opted to leave the circle of eight.
Would Allustan sill have connections with other cirlce members?
Questions questions...
How come my players don't appreciate all the behind the scenes stuff I do for them?
How come my players don't appreciate all the behind the scenes stuff I do for them?
Amen, brother!
I have maybe two out of ten players who will get any relevance out of it being Tenser instead of Generic High-level Mage #8.
Oh, sad times, sad times...
I think it makes good sense that Allustan broke with Tenser after he returned from the dead. Allustan is Neutral after all and possibly has an outlook more in line with the Circle of the Eight. When Tenser left the organization that practices active neutrality, he and Allustan may have had an argument about it. Hence the falling out. At least that's the explanation I plan to use IMC.
greyhawk is the best of all the campaign settings, those who don't think so are usually those obsessed with forgotten realms
It's kind of funny you know, that Greyhawk vs. FR vs. Eberron thing. I didn't think have any particular attachment to any of those settings, because most of my D&D experience came through play in homebrew worlds (my own included). That being said, reading AoW has made me realize that Greyhawk influenced a lot of my ideas about the game. I have NPCs who are tailored after Zagyg, Mordenkainen, and Tenser and Iuz. Some of my deities are reminiscent of Pelor, Heironeous, Ehlonna, Hextor. The main city in my world is modeked a bit after the Free City of Greyhawk. I've always thought that Mordenkainen was the best D&D wizard ever. I guess what I'm saying is that I've always been a Greyhawk fan, but just never realized it. Now other people are entitled to their opinion, but you must give credit where credit is due. Greyhawk is the grandaddy of D&D campaign worlds, and that can't be taken away.
Grandaddy? I'd have to say Middle Earth and all of Tolkien's stuff is the grandaddy...
Greyhawk is the daddy.
greyhawk is the best of all the campaign settings, those who don't think so are usually those obsessed with forgotten realms
Sigh... I'm a Forgotten Realms fan, but only when I DM it. It is a really good setting, but like Greyhawk, it's just a setting. When I play, I want to play in a different setting. I do have the Living Greyhawk Gazetter (as well as the Dungeon maps) and I think the setting looks really fun. I'll probably try to run the Age of Worms in Greyhawk when I get some time.
If there was a campaign setting that I was ever "obsessed" with, it would be Planescape. THAT was an awesome setting. The only setting I have a mild dislike for is Dragonlance, but I just finished playing a year long Dragonlance campaign that was fun because the DM had some good adventures for us. Sometimes I think settings in D&D campaigns just end up being window dressing once you get a really fun group of players in a campaign full of really exciting adventures. That's why I like Dungeon. It's all about the adventures (and being able to adapt them to other settings).
Intending to run the campaign in Eberron, I can't help but feel as if Age of Worms is a little TOO Greyhawk, as well as referencing a lot of old stuff. The Ebon Triad is based around three Greyhawk/core deities, the dungeons are based around the Wind Dukes, the backstory includes that Wolf Spider fellow and the Rod of Seven Parts, and Kyuss plays a big role. Even the "mad cultists summoning a god" reminds me of Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. So yeah, it has a lot of Greyhawk in it, even after the conversion guidelines.
I do like the conversion guidelines have managed to fit the adventure into Eberron, though, linking the Wolf Spider to the Age of Demons and so on.
Grandaddy? I'd have to say Middle Earth and all of Tolkien's stuff is the grandaddy...
Greyhawk is the daddy.
I disagree. I'd say that Tolkein's Middle Earth is the grandaddy of the whole fantasy genre :).
...I can't help but feel as if Age of Worms is a little TOO Greyhawk, as well as referencing a lot of old stuff...
Though I'm a GH addict, I can see Jonathan's point. On the other hand, WotC did make official the fact that GH is the default D&D world -- which makes their seeming aversion for it quite strange.
Regard all,
Jack
which makes their seeming aversion for it quite strange.
Jack
That is a mild understatement.
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On the other hand, WotC did make official the fact that GH is the default D&D world -- which makes their seeming aversion for it quite strange.
Agreed.
And of course there's the whole issue of LG -- WotC are perfectly happy for vast quantities of Greyhawk material to be produced by the various LG triads, but the great majority of this material will never be available to any of us -- you can only get it if you're playing "proper" LG games in your official LG region; and, to the best of my knowledge (a while back I asked people in three different triads), none of it will ever be reprinted.
On the bright side it's saving me a fortune. If WotC put out as many GH supplements as they do FR or Eberron I'd be broke! :)
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And that's where I say "huzzah!". Greyhawk remains truly "mine" the less material is out there for the masses. Having a small volume of "official" material means less money and time I have to devote to stay "current". Plenty of goodies have snuck through the Living Greyhawk sieve via Dungeon to spark the imagination and keep the campaign fresh.
Or was all of the above a case of reverse psychology?
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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It's kind of funny you know, that Greyhawk vs. FR vs. Eberron thing. I didn't think have any particular attachment to any of those settings, because most of my D&D experience came through play in homebrew worlds (my own included). That being said, reading AoW has made me realize that Greyhawk influenced a lot of my ideas about the game. I have NPCs who are tailored after Zagyg, Mordenkainen, and Tenser and Iuz. Some of my deities are reminiscent of Pelor, Heironeous, Ehlonna, Hextor. The main city in my world is modeked a bit after the Free City of Greyhawk. I've always thought that Mordenkainen was the best D&D wizard ever. I guess what I'm saying is that I've always been a Greyhawk fan, but just never realized it. Now other people are entitled to their opinion, but you must give credit where credit is due. Greyhawk is the grandaddy of D&D campaign worlds, and that can't be taken away.
My point exactly.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
I am relieved that Manzorian is Tenser...one less trifle to worry about, although if Allutsan broke with Tenser 10 years ago that puts that happening at CY585 which is just when the last Tenser clone got rescued from Tuerny, and of course tenser was effectively dead for a year before that...
So Allustan broke off his apprenticeship with Tenser after Tenser game back from the dead and opted to leave the circle of eight.
Uh really? OK, where can I get hold of this stuff? It sounds fascinating, not to mention useful for later on in AoW.
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I give up!!! Fine! Dungeon and Paizo's MBs are going to force me to dig my Greyhawk collection out of storage!!!
The crux of the Tenser story developed during the Wars/From the Ashes period of Greyhawk. The "Rary the Traitor" suppliment/adventure adds more. "Return of the Eight" is an adventure where the PCs take a trip to the moon and recover Tenser's last clone (help me folks if my memory is bungling this; I will get my GH-geekness up to snuff again shortly) and he retires from the Circle of Eight. This scenario also had 2E stats for all of the CoE members, including the "newbies" that replaced the retired/dead.
I don't think any of this is critical information to the AoW story (yet at least), but if you have a PC wizard apprenticed to Allustan (as I do in my game), this information is likely to be known by Allustan to some extent and will likely clarify his political view when compared to Tenser's. This may be relevant for later segments of the story arc? Elucidated with the facts, I'll make it relevant for my game...
((What really scares me is I remember more of the facts of the Greyhawk Wars than I do...say the events that led up to the Kosovo hostilities...sometimes I worry about how much of brain is devoted to innane facts...))
((What really scares me is I remember more of the facts of the Greyhawk Wars than I do...say the events that led up to the Kosovo hostilities...sometimes I worry about how much of brain is devoted to innane facts...))
Well, Rexx, you're not alone. Last week I found myself explaining to a fellow player the minute details of the Elven Crown Wars (FR stuff) and I was all the time thinking "what useful info could I have stored in there instead of that?".
But at the same time, if we were storing *only* useful info we would go crazy, wouldn't we? Or wouldn't we?
Well, let me think that we would, so I can feel better when I start to memorize all this GH lore I downloaded yesterday thanks to your good avice. ;-)
Bocklin
PS: I promise that after I learn all this GH lore, I will go read that book about the Lebanese civil war which is still waiting for me since months... God I feel awful because of my priorities-setting... Anyway, back to reading "The Adventure Begins"...
"Uh really? OK, where can I get hold of this stuff? It sounds fascinating, not to mention useful for later on in AoW."
I think a previous post covered it for the most part.
1st edition Module WGR5 Isle of the Ape gives a nice cameo of Tenser and his castle.
The 2nd edition Module Return of the Eight details Tenser's castle and his last clone's rescue form the famous Tuerny, a Great Kingdom wizard who was famous for his iron flask (minor artifact) and who became a Nalfashee demon upon death.
Tensers death and the removal of all his known clones by Rary and Robilar was detailed in Greyhawk Wars and From the Ashes bpxed sets and maybe some reference with I think in Rary the Traitor supplement.
Tenser and the circle of eight descibed in the 1989 City of Greyhawk Boxed set.
Tenser the charcter detailed in the somewhat hard to find Rogues Gallery supplement of 1980.
Lots of Tenser references in some Dragon articles I assume and on greyhawk devoted websites.
Anyone that created a spell like Tensers Transormation and Tensers Floating disc to get every last copper is a mage after my own heart.