Dagon. (I've always been intrigued by that little blurb in the MM2 (1e).
Zuggtmoy (Who doesn't like the queen of fungi? ;-) )
Kostchie (sp? I'd really like to see the variant frost giant culture he might inspire.)
Sess’innek (We had a lot of fun with him in Serpent Kingdoms, but didn't actually get into detailing the demon lord himself.)
--Eric
Orcus would be a good choice, but he and a lot of his buddies had big writeups in the Book of Vile Darkness, so maybe they've been done too recently?
Lolth...I can't agree with you there. The drow are done. They're over. They're dead ebony-skinned horses so for God's sake quit beating them. I would honestly be happy if Dragon took a good decade off from even mentioning drow or anything closely connected to them. It's gotten to the point now where I almost hate drow despite myself. I have to go back and re-read Gygax's original drow modules periodically just to stave-off the loathing. Then I curl-up in the fetal position and and chant "There's no such thing as Elistrae...there's no such things as Elistrae..." until the men in the while coats bring me my medicine. :)
Zuggtmoy would be great. I would ignore what Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil has to say about her fate after the Temple fell for the second time, though. Like its explaination for Prince Thrommel's disappearence, it just rubbed me the wrong way.
The Drow will never die. Not while there's one of us in the world to usher in the innocents to the dark and winding paths of the Underdark. Muhahahahaha
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Lolth...I can't agree with you there.
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Zuggtmoy would be great.
I pretty much agree with Yamo, I think some 'lower-profiles' would be much more interesting.
My wish-list would be (in order)..
1. BAPHOMET!
2. Erishkigal, Demon Queen of Seduction, Mistress of the Succubi (and, hey, sex sells, so vamp it up, baby).
3. Kostchtchie (entranced by him ever since the Dragon issue with him pasting a Roman-esque soldier on the cover. I was really surprised when he didn't make it in the FrostBurn book).
4. Zuggtomy (she's never really got the respect she's due (except in that one Nodwick strip where the cultists were making pizza), can't a fungi-rl get a break?)
5. Mandrillagon, Demon Lord of Primates (because monkeys make everything better)
"Kostchtchie (entranced by him ever since the Dragon issue with him pasting a Roman-esque soldier on the cover."
I love that cover.
Mandrillagon, Demon Lord of Primates (because monkeys make everything better)
Espically ninja-monkeys.
I feel like there are a lot of demon lords I've missed out on.
The only one I could suggest from my favorites is Juiblex, and he, sadly, got coverage in the Book of Vile Darkness. (It's only sad because that means it's unlikely he'll get a Demonomicon article.)
Not only was his Thrall PrC awsome, but his greatest servant has the best name I've seen in a long time: "Darkness Given Hunger"
Yeah. I loved Juiblex to pieces, but he probably dosen't need an article, since he's still in print.
Tuerny the Merciless. He technically doesn't qualify as a Demon Prince, but he was a really cool villain. "Return of the Eight" had some cool treatment of him, but it would be nice to see some more up-to-date stuff and new art, regardless of what previous works have done to him.
My personal must-see list:
- Demogorgon
- Orcus
- Graz'zt<sp>
- Lolth
Yes, I want to see another treatment of Orcus. H4: Throne of Bloodstone was semi-cool, and the picture of the stronghold rocked, but it has an odd atmosphere, and I'd like to see Dragon's new standards of excellence applied.
I also want a similar treatment applied to Lolth. Perhaps Dragon can resurrect her from old hat to sinister demon queen once again?
Personally I would love to see a full treatment and history on Iggwilv herself. Since she and Gratz are the parents of Iuz I am sure that there must be loads of cool stuff that could be included. Plus she has had links to a lot of other adventures and sourcebooks to do with Greyhawk. I know that she isn't a demon but come on; she imprisoned Gratz for a while so she must be worth it!
as for the drow, i wouldn't be offended by a write-up for the Vheraun (sp?) Masked-God guy...
Graz'zt
Iggwilv herself would be really cool!
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How about some Devils? I know it's called the Demonomicon, but ...
It seems that demons get WAAAAAY more treatment than devils ... I'm running a campaign circling around Levistus (and his attempts to get free), and there are precious few monsters, articles, and details on the Baatorians ...
On that note, how about the mysterious pre-devil natives of Baator and the non-taanari demons. We've seen a few non-taanari, but there have only been rumors of the pre-devils.
Erik, I'm very excited to see that Zuggtmoy is getting a write up next issue. I'm currently running Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and would love to drop in a Thrall of Zuggtmoy. Out of curiosity, will there be a bit of expansion and/or explanation of the relationship between EEE/EEG, Tharizdun, and Zuggtmoy in this entry of the Demonomicon? In other words, will some of the holes be filled?
Creative Director
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Erik, I'm very excited to see that Zuggtmoy is getting a write up next issue. I'm currently running Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and would love to drop in a Thrall of Zuggtmoy. Out of curiosity, will there be a bit of expansion and/or explanation of the relationship between EEE/EEG, Tharizdun, and Zuggtmoy in this entry of the Demonomicon? In other words, will some of the holes be filled?
There will indeed be a Thrall of Zuggtmoy in the next Demonomicon, along with some of her classic minions (and a new one). Her relationship with Tharizdun/EEG/Iuz/etc. will be discussed as well. Not sure what holes need filling, but any I find will certainly be filled in with nutrient-rich soil good for growing mushrooms in.
As for the series as a whole, it'll be sticking wtih demons. It's not called the Devilnomicon, after all! ;-) Also, the theory is to focus on the demons that haven't yet had official 3rd edition entries, so the ones that got covered in the Book of Vile Darkness won't have entries any time soon. We've still got Kostchtchie and Baphomet for starters, and there's that neat list on page 35 of the 1st edition Monster Manual II that's ripe for mining. Chances are fairly good that the next 2 will be Kostchtchie and Baphomet, but who knows? I might get distracted by Malcanthet or Ugudenk or Socothbenoth or Obox-ob or something...
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Creative Director
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On that note, how about the mysterious pre-devil natives of Baator and the non-taanari demons. We've seen a few non-taanari, but there have only been rumors of the pre-devils.How about some Devils? I know it's called the Demonomicon, but ...
It seems that demons get WAAAAAY more treatment than devils ... I'm running a campaign circling around Levistus (and his attempts to get free), and there are precious few monsters, articles, and details on the Baatorians ...
Demons do get WAAAAAY more treatment than devils in the magazines. I see 2 reasons for that. The first is that Erik and I are obsessed with D&D demons. The second, and more important one, is that there's a finite number of devils in Hell, and they've all been quite detailed (most recently in the Book of Vile Darkness, but also back in the day in Ed Greenwood's awesome Nine Hells articles in Dragon). Personally, I'm more interested in filling in the blanks for those poor demons who fell through the cracks. There's got to be more to Baphomet than being the minotaur boss and being able to spray unholy water out of his mouth, for example.
That said... I'd really like to read an article about proto-devils.
That said... I'd really like to read an article about proto-devils.
How proto? Like Mephistophegoo?
Or Asmobaby, the universe's hardest infant to sit for?
"Someone needs his bottle."
"I'll swallow your *&@$in' SOUL, B*@#$!"
On that note, how about the mysterious pre-devil natives of Baator and the non-taanari demons. We've seen a few non-taanari, but there have only been rumors of the pre-devils.How about some Devils? I know it's called the Demonomicon, but ...
It seems that demons get WAAAAAY more treatment than devils ... I'm running a campaign circling around Levistus (and his attempts to get free), and there are precious few monsters, articles, and details on the Baatorians ...
Demons do get WAAAAAY more treatment than devils in the magazines. I see 2 reasons for that. The first is that Erik and I are obsessed with D&D demons. The second, and more important one, is that there's a finite number of devils in Hell, and they've all been quite detailed (most recently in the Book of Vile Darkness, but also back in the day in Ed Greenwood's awesome Nine Hells articles in Dragon). Personally, I'm more interested in filling in the blanks for those poor demons who fell through the cracks. There's got to be more to Baphomet than being the minotaur boss and being able to spray unholy water out of his mouth, for example.
That said... I'd really like to read an article about proto-devils.
Ok with that James but surely I am not the only one who craves more stuff on Iggwilv herself. Any chance of it, maybe as a seperate article?
There will indeed be a Thrall of Zuggtmoy in the next Demonomicon, along with some of her classic minions (and a new one). Her relationship with Tharizdun/EEG/Iuz/etc. will be discussed as well. Not sure what holes need filling, but any I find will certainly be filled in with nutrient-rich soil good for growing mushrooms in.
Also, the theory is to focus on the demons that haven't yet had official 3rd edition entries, so the ones that got covered in the Book of Vile Darkness won't have entries any time soon. We've still got Kostchtchie and Baphomet for starters, and there's that neat list on page 35 of the 1st edition Monster Manual II that's ripe for mining. Chances are fairly good that the next 2 will be Kostchtchie and Baphomet, but who knows? I might get distracted by Malcanthet or Ugudenk or Socothbenoth or Obox-ob or something...
Very excited about the ToEE goodness. One example of holes is Zuggtmoy's use of the flaming eye symbol for the Cult of Elemental Evil in the original adventure and the switch to the "eye of fire" (triangle with inverted Y touching each of the vertices) in RttToEE. Out of the campaign setting, the flaming eye was a result of a misinterpretation by the artist when ToEE was originally written.
My explanation: I treat the EEG/EEE, Tharizdun, and Ghanaudar as three parts to one elder god all of whom were related to chaos, madness and entropy and imprisoned by other gods. The flaming eye is a throwback to Ghanaudar's symbol, and Zuggtmoy is to Ghanaudar as Orcus is to Nerull.
Regarding demons not covered in 3e, you broke that trend on the first entry; Pazuzu was covered in the BoVD Web Enhancement. ;)
Personally I would love to see a full treatment and history on Iggwilv herself. Since she and Gratz are the parents of Iuz I am sure that there must be loads of cool stuff that could be included. Plus she has had links to a lot of other adventures and sourcebooks to do with Greyhawk. I know that she isn't a demon but come on; she imprisoned Gratz for a while so she must be worth it!
Jylan, there was mention a while back by the Paizo boys of further treatment of Iggwilv to appear in Dungeon later this year. So, maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised.
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I seem to recall that Acerak's father was a powerful Balor or maybe an Abyssal Lord.. can't remember which. Would it be possible to seem him in this particular series? I can't remember how to spell his name, but I know it begins with a 'T'. Also, since some of us don't own the 1ST ed. MM2 could you please provide the list that everyone keeps mentioning.
I'll throw in a vote for some devils to be covered in a similar article. While there may be a finite amount of them and they may follow a certain heirarchy, we also know that they do have exiles from the heirarchy, and the plots of those renegates strikes me as pretty interesting as well.
And while we're at it . . . how many unique "named" yugoloths do you suppose there are (and how upset are they that they can't go back to their old names like the devils and demons got to).
I seem to recall that Acerak's father was a powerful Balor or maybe an Abyssal Lord.. can't remember which. Would it be possible to seem him in this particular series? I can't remember how to spell his name, but I know it begins with a 'T'. Also, since some of us don't own the 1ST ed. MM2 could you please provide the list that everyone keeps mentioning.
... Is EVERY major 1e bad guy descended from greater demons or demon lords?
Personally I would love to see a full treatment and history on Iggwilv herself. Since she and Gratz are the parents of Iuz I am sure that there must be loads of cool stuff that could be included. Plus she has had links to a lot of other adventures and sourcebooks to do with Greyhawk. I know that she isn't a demon but come on; she imprisoned Gratz for a while so she must be worth it!Jylan, there was mention a while back by the Paizo boys of further treatment of Iggwilv to appear in Dungeon later this year. So, maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Thanks for the info Steve. I look forward to it.
I would nominate...someone I've never heard of. New demons! New demons for all!
Yeah, new demons would be cool. And maybe more coverage of the devils, too. And definately more on the ancient Baatorians, and the fallen angels that became the devils. All of that. But as for demons, i want to see depths of the abyss deeper than ever i have seen before. And as Elistrae and drow, yes, Elistrae had ruined them, and yes, Lolth should be revitalized into something cool. When the players hear the name of Lolth they say "Ha! That old hag? Sure, half of us are drow, but we're all on the surface,and she can't ever get us! Ha ha! Stupid old fat nasty hag Lolth!". They should be quivering in fear whenever they see a drow, for fear of the wrath of the Queen of the Demonweb Pits. Lolth needs a makeover to get past what Salvatore (who is a good writer, but has inadvertantly both ruined the drow and elevated them beyond their wildest dreams) has messed up on her.
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Lolth is more goddess than demon, and she is detailed in too many other places. I say keep the Demonomicon for Demons only. No Devils, no Yuggoloths, and definitely no Lolth. Besides, the drow have gotten waaayyy to much attention over the last few years.
I agree with the earlier statement that they should come up with something new. New blood is always good. However, don't sacrifice the chance to update the classics and even fill in some old names that never got much attentionto begin with. Maybe create one new demon prince to close out the series.
It would be cool if there'd be a 'Create A Demon-Prince'-contest or something like this.
Yes, I agree. Something new.
By the way, hello everyone. I just started posting, and have subscribed for about a year to Dragon, and just started a Dungeon subscription.
WaterdhavianFlapjack
Is there some sort of Demon Prince who's, like, lord of the rats or something?
What would be nice (at least for me) would be to have a small article with a brief summary of all the demon princes to date, and maybe even add in some new ones. My reason: I am not at all familiar with the Demon Princes except for the articles in Dragon.
WaterdhavianFlapjack
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I don't know if you have access to the 'Book Of Vile Darkness' or 'Manual Of The Planes'.
In BOVD you'll find detailed descriptions of the mayor demon princes (like Graz'zt, Demogorgon, Orcus etc.) and in MOTP you can find a list with the mayority of known demon princes.
Both books are 3.0 but great reads all the way...
I don't know if you have access to the 'Book Of Vile Darkness' or 'Manual Of The Planes'.
In BOVD you'll find detailed descriptions of the mayor demon princes (like Graz'zt, Demogorgon, Orcus etc.) and in MOTP you can find a list with the mayority of known demon princes.
Both books are 3.0 but great reads all the way...
Nope. Both are not high on my list of books to get. But, I'll at least look at them at my FLGS. Thanks.
WaterdhavianFlapjack
Is there some sort of Demon Prince who's, like, lord of the rats or something?
There is, indeed, Bloodhawke. You'd have to go searching through Legends & Lore (1st Ed), but it's simply called Rat God in the Nehwon Mythos section pg. 87. I've planned writing a module using this guy for quite some time based on an adventure I ran about 6 years ago using this foul critter as the main villain.
Thanks for the reminder!
Lolth needs a makeover to get past what Salvatore (who is a good writer, but has inadvertantly both ruined the drow and elevated them beyond their wildest dreams) has messed up on her.
Well, it may be too late for Llolth, but in Eberron, the Drow are quite cool. (Most of them are savages, and are, in fact, the native race of the lost continent of Xen'Drik... One of the natives, anyway...)
No Llolth either.
Admitted, not QUITE what you had in mind, but look it up sometime. You might find some ideas that will help your players once again fear the Drow. After all, presentation is everything.
... And I'm sorry about the threadjack, but really- Eberron Drow are among the coolest things D&D has ever done. People must be educated as to the bad-assery of Eberron. Thank you. Drive through.
I think that, while he shouldn't be near the top of the list, Orcus shouldn't be dismissed completely. The guy's even the big baddie god in my beloved Ghostwalk setting. But do the obscure ones first.
aside: it seems that just about everyone loves the demonicon articles. I know that when I see that one is coming up, I start to look forwards to the next issue.
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I think that, while he shouldn't be near the top of the list, Orcus shouldn't be dismissed completely. The guy's even the big baddie god in my beloved Ghostwalk setting. But do the obscure ones first.
Bad news for you Sucros, Orcus was covered in the Book of Vile Darkness, along with Demogorgon, Graz'zt, Juiblex, and Yeenoghu. I seriously doubt they will waste pages by a redo in the Demonomicon. He is pretty cool as the baddie in Ghostwalk though.
as much as the Dragon staff may want to work with demon lords already featured in other books, they would probably like to see those not yet touched on (and would probably have an easier time from WotC about not retreading). i have a list of proposals ready to send the moment Dragon #337 hits my widdle hands. ;) just want to have a look at Zuggy before i send it...
how about abraxus? isn't he the the uber-demon?
i don't know about that, but i do believe he is named in the old Monster Manual II list.
At the end of the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign I ran last year, Zuggtmoy was banished back to the Abyss, an "accomplishment" which my players felt was overshadowed by the fact that her minions and underlings would be hunting them down for the rest of their days.
In the follow up campaign, which I like to think of as the Revenge of TOEE, half the party was slain, its name ruined in Verbobonc, and the party slinked off to Greyhawk to seek new employment. As they left, one of the players turned to me and said: "I never want to hear the name Zuggtmoy AGAIN."
Please, tell me she'll be on the cover so I can leave it out for him to discover the next time I see him.
At the end of the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign I ran last year, Zuggtmoy was banished back to the Abyss, an "accomplishment" which my players felt was overshadowed by the fact that her minions and underlings would be hunting them down for the rest of their days.
In the follow up campaign, which I like to think of as the Revenge of TOEE, half the party was slain, its name ruined in Verbobonc, and the party slinked off to Greyhawk to seek new employment. As they left, one of the players turned to me and said: "I never want to hear the name Zuggtmoy AGAIN."
Please, tell me she'll be on the cover so I can leave it out for him to discover the next time I see him.
Yes, I would love to see a nice cover peice for Zuggtmoy! it would be interesting to see a version of her drawn by Wayne Reynolds.
especially since she was so weird and funny-looking in ToEE. :)
especially since she was so weird and funny-looking in ToEE. :)
Yeah, it was wierd seeing her drawn for the ToEE PC game with a sexy demeanor.
http://www.atari.com/toee/downloads.php
*HEAD EXPLODES*
Another nominee I think who has been overlooked is Ilsidahur, who made his debut in Dungeon Magazine (the Shrine of Ilsidahur). So far, Demogorgon, Juiblex, Yeenoghu, Orcus and Graz'zt had their day in Book of Vile Darkness...althought I wonder will there be an official write up of their stats in 3.5. Other detailed demon lords include Eltab, the "phoney" Soneillon, and Rhyxali.
Lolth, yes....poor Lolth, she has been "ruined" from a notorious demon queen to drow goddess. It is ironic that the weakest of the demon lords from first edition is now a divine rank 15 goddess who can easily blow away Demogorgon.
Now that Pazuzu, Fraz-urb'luu and now Zuggtmoy is detailed, that leaves only Baphomet and Kostchtchie. Of course as I said, there is Ilsidahur. Sessinnek is a product of the nightmare that was second edition....like Planescape (and the demon lords from the various PS supplements....all lame).
It would be nice to see a write up of Erishkigal/Ereshkigal, Dagon (who have been mentioned several times but never detailed), the "real" Soneillon (as opposed to her imposter in "Champions of Ruin").