Let me start by saying that I was really impressed with The Whispering Cairn and planned to run the Age of Worms adventure path based on what appeared to be a really interesting and well-though-out adventure. The Three Faces of Evil, however, I found extremely disappointing for a variety of reasons which I will elaborate below. I am writing this not simply to complain but in the hopes that the writers of future Age of Worms adventures are reading (Sean K., this means you) and will put a bit more effort and thought into their work than has been presented in 3FoE. Ok, here is a non-exhaustive list of my issues with the adventure:
-=* SPOILERS *=-
1) Motivation. It appears that there is an assumption here that the PCs will want to follow up on the green worm from The Whispering Cairn (hope the PCs found it and gave it to Allustan to decipher). There is about half a page of discussion about what a bad guy Balabar Smenk is and then no real reason why the PCs would want to do anything that he suggests. "Roleplay him as all the more annoying, arrogant, and grating..." (p. 20). Oh, yeah, cause we all know how eager players are to work with the really obnoxious NPCs.
2) The Mine. Sometime between The Whispering Cairn and 3FoE, the Dourstone Mine turns into a veritable fortress, complete with stockade (which appears to have a 400' perimeter) and a watchtower (!). Ragnolin has 2/3 as many guards as the Free City Garrison! Presumably, not every mine in Diamond Lake has as strong a defense force, or more than 10% of the town's residents would be guards. Therefore, this copper?/iron? mine sticks out like a sore thumb. This is hardly the best way to keep a SECRET cult secret. I'd also like to mention the dozen dwarves that suddenly appeared, when a mere handful lived in Diamond Lake in WC. Finally, we are told that Ragnolin would rather pay a few guards to keep the workers in line, but none of the guards are guarding the workers. They're all out patrolling the estate.
3) The Elevator. First, why is this area boarded up (DC 18 Strength check) if cultists pass through here twice every day (to join the guards)? Secondly, if the winch mechanism is ON the elevator, then all the cultists are trapped below during the day when the human cultists have presumably left the elevator at the top of the shaft, and no one (including PCs) can descend at night (when the assault seems most likely). This is okay from a realism point, but grinds the game to a halt.
4) Errors. Some of these have been mentioned previously in other threads (commoners with proficiencies in 2 weapons, curtain instead of door to Theldrick's room, missing cultist quantity, etc.), but their proliferation is astounding. Some examples: Garras, Kendra, and Theldrick all wield heavy flails (2-handed weapons) while wearing shields; we are never told what the book on G&K's table is; grimlocks are not proficient with shields (i'll grant them morningstars); the grimlock barbarian's knives are described as "dull, rusty" and her armor is "battered," but it turns out they are masterwork daggers (complete with +1 to hit) and +1 studded leather armor (and how the heck did she preserve the drow head?); the grimlock chieftain's damage with the greataxe should be 1d12+9 when he is raging; the acolytes of Vecna cast message to warn the Faceless One, but they don't even have that spell in their grimoires, let alone memorized; twice grimlocks are said to use their longspears to hold off PCs, but they don't HAVE longspears; and so on.
5) Darkness. I understand the desire to make the dungeon creepy and play to the monsters' strengths, but not everyone can wander around in utter darkness just to tick off the PCs. Dire weasels, for example, don't have darkvision. I can't imagine how they wander around that maze in the dark. Further, I imagine the kenku need at least a candle to see in the secret passages (where the PCs' torches don't shine).
6) Kamikaze bad guys. EVERYONE in this adventure fights to the death (except for the guards topside). This seems like a copout. The theory being that the writer didn't have enough space, time, or energy to create personalities for the named NPCs, so they never speak and just keep swinging till they're dead. That's 5th-grade D&D. Even the set-up for some encounters: "The grimlocks are under strict orders to never disturb Grallak. Thus, the guards assume that intruders are at hand if anyone approaches" (p. 37). REALLY? None of the grimlocks EVER have to talk to Grallak? How does he get food? So anytime anyone approaches, Grallak's 3 guards stab first, ask questions later. This seems lazy. Like all the writer wants is a big, long fight scene. Which brings me to the last point ...
7) One Big, Long Fight Scene. This "adventure" is just that. Not only is it all dungeon crawl, with a brief nod to "infiltration" through a dozen guards, but almost every single room is loaded with badguys. Many of them are unnecessarily redundant or confusing (chokers? why?) with no real way to get past them without an unavoidable battle (to the death) everytime. Again, this reminds me of the dungeons I used to draw when I first started playing D&D 20 years ago: full of unavoidable battles with no interaction or story (in short, no ROLE-PLAYING). This whole adventure is a miniatures game, essentially.
Whew. Sorry about the length of this post, but these things have really been bothering me, and I hope that those in power take a look at what their readers have to say and think about the product we're shelling out good $ for.
o
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ooops. I'm SO disappointed, in fact, that I only gave the adventure 2 out of 3 Faces. Obviously, I don't have professional editors reading my work.
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I also wanted to know how the grimlocks aim to hit light sources. Unless I missed something in the MM 3.5, grimlocks have no real way to "sense" light sources, especially those from light sources that don't even produce heat. There is also the problem that grimlocks have incredible trouble with ranged weapons which some of the grimlocks seem to be using as their main line of defense in this module.
My main concern, though, is how these adventures seem to be starting right at the entrance to the dungeon with how the PCs get there being left totally to us. This is a really odd contradiction compared to Shackled City (I loved that AP so much!) which usually had multiple chapters that gave PCs time to interact with NPCs before, in the middle, or at the end of the adventure. From a St. Cuthbert priest being beaten in an alley to a riot breaking out on the city streets, Shackled City spent a lot of time outside the dungeon. "Whispering Cairn" (a wonderful stand-alone dungeon crawl) started at the entrance, and "Three Faces" did a similar act, relegating most of the in-between stuff to events that "need" to happen for the PCs to find themselves at the front door.
However, honestly I could look past all that, and make up what needs to be made up. The biggest problem was how many times the module flat-out mentioned wrong room numbers or NPCs. I've already been labeled as a whiner on these boards so I suppose it will all be taken with a grain of salt, but these are my beefs with the AP so far.
I don't have a problem with the motivation factor, as half my group are clerics or paladins to Tyr, and would want nothing else but to invade a cult that worship the Dead three (Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul).
I don't have 3 Faces of Evil yet, but the way you put it, I'm not sure I want it either. I disagree that TWC was a dungeon crawl. You had lots of opportunity for interaction, both with Alastor Land, Kullen and his gang and Filge. The dungeon was also more of a troubleshooting dungeon.. traps.. puzzles, climbing and swimming.. this is far more interesting than 28 rooms with different monsters.
I guess I will have the Dourstone mine slowly evolve, as I will probably be running some side quests to get my PCs to at least 4th level before running 3 Faces of Evil.
I haven't got issue #125 yet, but from the sounds of things they have certainly made a lot of errors with this adventure. Hopefully some of these problems will be fixed up with the web enhancement or something similar.
I think that one of the problems is that the staff DUNGEON are being run off their feet with trying to bring this stuff to publication. A number of the editors seem to be working on their own projects, which puts a strain on their time, and bringing out the Shackled City hardcover has probably caused many a sleepless night.
Frankly I think everyone should cut them a bit off slack. They are probably as disappointed by the errors in the adventure as everyone else.
As a straight dungeon crawl I find it is a decent adventure, granted for those DM's that like precision in stats some of the errors can be irritating. BUt hey, Whispering Cairn had the timeline problems but I still loved it.
My major beef is that there is not much sense of how this story propels the campaign story along. You squash three small temples..which may in a way propigate future events, but the only clue is some notes given to players.
As a DM, what exactly is going on behind the scenes here? How will the triad take the destruction of this complex? Why was this complex so important in the first place (other than Vecna once lived here). What will Smeck do when you come out of the mine..he's not stupid, he knows the players will have imcriminating evidence against him.
So as DM, I now have to create a whole double cross where Smeck gathers up the rest of his bully boys and maybe bribes the sherriff and then attacks the PC's in a nasty ambush as they leave the mine (only he ascertains that they were successful-which then means I have to contrive a way that he knows this)..Argh..
Its not that I mind doing this stuff, its kinda fun, I just want to make sure that what I do doesn't screw up the later story plot.
Here's a similar thread, started by me:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/ageOfWorms/comparingWhispering CairnAndThreeFaces
Suffice it to say I'm just as disappointed in Three Faces.
I'll be substituting some other material in its place, in both the AoW campaigns that I'm running. I'm planning to run Devil Box (issue 109), which is a perfect fit for Diamond Lake, and Cry Wolf (issue 102).
In my campaigns, the note from Smenk to Filge is in code, so the PCs can't read it, yet. I'll decide what it says once I see Encounter at Blackwall Keep, and use it as a hook for that adventure.
Here's hoping that Sean Reynolds' adventure design is more my style.
Frankly I think everyone should cut them a bit off slack. They are probably as disappointed by the errors in the adventure as everyone else.
Another complaint: I am a little tired of all the cheerleading that goes on for the editors on these boards. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE Dungeon. I think it's a wonderful tool for times when I am feeling a little less inspired or don't have time to write my own adventure. I really like the concept of the Adventure Path, and I feel that, overall, they do a darn good job providing interesting, useful adventures (The Mad God's Key, which I've seen mentioned by a few others, is a great example). Which is why I am so disappointed by 3FoE.
If the writers and editors were making me a value meal at McDonalds (also about a $7 investment) and screwed up as often as they did in this adventure, providing me a burger with onions and no mustard, with diet coke instead of coke, and day old french fries, I'd be just as upset. In fact, I'd demand that McDonalds provide me with a new burger, fries, and soda. And no one out there would say, "Hey, why don't you cut them some slack? It's lunch-time, and they're busy."
My point: the staff at Dungeon gets paid to produce an excellent product. I give them my hard-earned money for said product (in fact, i shelled out my $7 for this one adventure alone, since I will never use the other 2). When said product stinks, I have a right (perhaps even a duty) to express my disappointment, not simply for the sake of whining, but so the staff can see very clearly where they made mistakes and can fix them. I agree that comments like, "This adventure sucks," with no further information, are useless.
In real life, I'm really a very friendly guy, but right now I don't feel like cutting Dungeon any "slack."
o
Wow, I never would have noticed those. Someones got a whole lot of time on there hands. Just remember, your the DM, you decide what to do so you can take out some of the encounters, mistakes, lessen the guards, or write your own adventure that fits in the Adventure Path. DMs have TOTAL control over the adventure.
Wow, I never would have noticed those. Someones got a whole lot of time on there hands. Just remember, your the DM, you decide what to do so you can take out some of the encounters, mistakes, lessen the guards, or write your own adventure that fits in the Adventure Path. DMs have TOTAL control over the adventure.
well, duh. i didn't really get into how to FIX all the little mistakes because i am well aware that each dm out there is going to handle the errors in his/her own way. pointing out the truism that "your [sic] the DM" doesn't in any way lessen the fact that i paid for a crappy product.
o
ps yes, i DID read the adventure more than once, but these mistakes are not hard to catch if you are thinking about how your players are going to handle these situations as you read. hoping to help other DMs who might not have caught the errors was part of my motivation in posting the mistakes in the first place.
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This cut the editors some slack bussiness is getting out of hand. As much as whining may have increased on these boards in recent times, the unconditional fanboy mentality that is also starting to take over is also getting out of hand. As has been pointed out in other threads by people much more articulate than me, it seems that the editors have bit off far more than they can chew. The fact that spelling errors, incorrect room numbers, and all the other errors that Arcesilaus alone has pointed out made it into a finished product is a huge screw-up. Although impatient I have said that I did understand why things like "AoW Overload" are still a month late, but saying that editors are really busy is not an excuse. If their many "side-projects" are taking away from the quality of their primary product (you know...the magazine) then its time to take a step back and ask what exactly their priorities are.
As I see it, the staff can either tackle less work or the management can hire more staff. There is no reason for people to work insanely like that ... it does not make anybody happy and is detrimental to the overall quality of the product. (and I have no admiration for people who work themselves senseless, I'm not a fan of martyrs: my motto is "work less, work better") Also, a product promised is a product owed, I'm still patiently (wearing thin) waiting for the Overload. In the end, with a finite amounts of resources, it's quantity versus quality ... I would rather have quality. But then again, moaning and b@!&&ing probably helps nothing ... After all, the best way to express my opinion is with my buying $$$ ... And though I have my own disappointments, I do get my 7$ enjoyment out every issue so I keep buying the magazine. Overall AoW is leagues beyond the typical printed adventure, so I can forgive the few mistakes and I'm not so helpless that I cannot compensate while DMing ...
If the writers and editors were making me a value meal at McDonalds (also about a $7 investment) and screwed up as often as they did in this adventure, providing me a burger with onions and no mustard, with diet coke instead of coke, and day old french fries, I'd be just as upset. In fact, I'd demand that McDonalds provide me with a new burger, fries, and soda. And no one out there would say, "Hey, why don't you cut them some slack? It's lunch-time, and they're busy."
Unlike McDonalds, if you actually are paying $7 dollars for the issue, then you have the opportunity to browse the adventure before you buy it. If you find it not to your liking then simply don't buy it. Seems pretty simple to me.
Also if you don't like other people saying kudos to the editors and/or complaining about the editors or even complaining about the complaints that the editors receive I know there are plenty of other message boards out there that have nothing at all to do with the quality of Dungeon magazine. The internet is a big place.
Point of order Craig, those of us with subscriptions have paid for twelve copies (some of us more) without having the pleasure or opportunity of 'browsing through'. We have, in good faith, put our trust (in the form of money) in the staff at Paizo and in turn they have agreed to deliver a professional, well edited, and complete product. The fact that they are doing so by fleshing out adventures through online supplements and have provided this forum are part of that deal (for me it is part of what sold me the subscription).
Your argument is a cogent if and only if a person goes to the 'newsstand' and buys individual copies. For those of us with a subscription, we have a right to be dissatisfied with a sub-par product.
I also assert that the 'fellows' at paizo, would rather hear the truth about the product they put out rather than seeing heads nod from a bunch of 'yes men'. That way they can adjust fire and improve.
I agree with those who voiced disappointment. Besides the editing problems, there just isn't anything special about this adventure. It doesn't advance the story and it lacks anything new and exciting. If you've been playing 3.0/3.5 for several years, hack-n-slaying some skeletons, some grimlocks, and some evil clerics, is *yawn*, boring. I hope the rest of the adventure path gets back on track where the Whispering Cairn left off- with cool monsters, traps, rooms, and more importantly, interesting roleplaying opportunities and a good story.
I've never been impressed with anything that Mearls has done . . .
Whether to express merit or grievance, I fail to see what is wrong with either type of post ... why are people invited to voice their opinions "elsewhere in the big internet" or why is there a judgement value attached to either ? ... opinions are opinions ... they have very little to do with facts (like errata for example which I find very useful from more observant readers, kudos to you guys/gals who spot mistakes) ... I personnaly enjoy reading both positive and negative comments and isn't this message board partially dedicated to people voicing their opinions ?
Its strange that I have been labelled a fanboy by people on this thread. In truth I have several problems with both magazines (though my main problem is with DRAGON), I just don't like to whinge and complain all the time like some people. the main reason I don't subscribe is that I know there will be issues I will pass over because they simply don't meet my needs.
I suppose the reason I don't like to criticise James and his ilk is that I want them to publish my material. That being said I think they are probably grown up enough to hear some more criticism, so here goes...
If we are talking APs I think some of the worst (and best) adventures come from the designers and editors themselves. While adventures like "Whispering Cairn" and "Mad God's Key" are great, both the first epic level adventure (its so forgetable I can't even remember its name) and the "Shards of Eberron" adventures were slapdash at best. I could have written better adventures myself, and have in the past. It just goes to show you that the designers and editors are only human and can come up with crap too.
For all those editors out there...please don't hurt me.
... opinions are opinions ...
Great! Here's mine: Loved 3FoE when I first read it. Objections in this post are noted (I caught the heavy flail/shield whoops right away), but have not convinced me to change my mind. Posted errata fix-its will probably be used to one extent or another when I run the game...what DM has not made changes/adjustments to a premade adventure? Overall, nice job, MM.
LG
Here's an idea for all those people who think Mike's adventure sucked. Come up with an alternative storyline that is both exciting and advances the plot. Then when they do the hardcover or web enhancement, the editors can look at your ideas and fix all the mistakes they made with this adventure.
Now that would be both constructive, entertaining, and illuminating.
I think that some of the problem with this adventure is just the nature of it. In a way, this is the end of "low level" so it is, essentially, a dungeon crawl to help get the players levels, treasure, and items so they can move on to the later "plot advancing" adventures. Essentially this one reinforces a lot of what they may have surmised but weren't sure of about the cult, the town, and the local players.
It wasn't stunningly innovated, but it wasn't bad. For the record I loved Mike's first Dungeon adventure "Root of Evil" and I liked his second offering (the name escapes me . . . the one with the ship and the half orc druid).
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Here's an idea for all those people who think Mike's adventure sucked. Come up with an alternative storyline that is both exciting and advances the plot. Then when they do the hardcover or web enhancement, the editors can look at your ideas and fix all the mistakes they made with this adventure.
Now that would be both constructive, entertaining, and illuminating.
Well this bring ups the question some of us are asking about the Shackled City...If the hardcover will fix all these problems and be more smooth, why are we buying the AP now? If we can just buy a better product in a year and a half instead of individual parts which people seem to think are allowed to have blatant errors why should people even buying AoW right now?
Your argument is a cogent if and only if a person goes to the 'newsstand' and buys individual copies. For those of us with a subscription, we have a right to be dissatisfied with a sub-par product.
Which is what the poster stated by saying they put down 7 bucks for the magazine. As a subscriber we are paying less then this amount because we have signed up for 12 issues at $39 the downside being perhaps we get a couple of issues a year we wouldn't normally purchase. I for one would never purchase Dungeon if it was for one article or adventure per issue.
My point about the messageboards is simply this: If you use the boards be prepared to defend your posts or send your criticisms directly to the editors, thats what e-mail is for. But to post here that you are sick of hearing people defend the editors or you wish people wouldn't criticize a certain adventure because the editors are simply too busy is simply counter intuitive to the idea of Dungeon's message board.
I liked 3 Faces of Evil. It is a classic Dungeon crawl, I don't expect all adventures in AoW to be as plot based as TWC nor will they be. The editing mistakes are apparent in almost any adventure Dungeon prints, I challenge anyone to find an error free adventure in the last 12 issues.
Here's an idea for all those people who think Mike's adventure sucked. Come up with an alternative storyline that is both exciting and advances the plot. Then when they do the hardcover or web enhancement, the editors can look at your ideas and fix all the mistakes they made with this adventure.
Now that would be both constructive, entertaining, and illuminating.
That's what I'm doing. As I've said in this thread and another, I'm substituting Devil Box (issue 109) and Cry Wolf (issue 102) in its place. When I have the full plot outline, I'll be able to work plot points in, and I'll post what I'm doing.
On the other hand, the message boards are an appropriate place for those who find an adventure doesn't meet their DMing needs to let Erik know. (And, conversely, for those who like the material to let Erik know.)
As I said before, my original goal for this thread was not to point fingers but to inform the writers and editors that we as customers are paying attention to the details of their product and would like them to do the same. There is nothing anyone at Dungeon can do to fix 3FoE at this point (I am not likely to buy any hardcover edition in addition to the magazines), so I'm hoping to see some improvement in the future.
That said, I agree with Phil that the only thing that WE can do at this points (besides whining) is suggest some changes to make the adventures as useful and entertaining as (I assume) everyone at Dungeon wanted it to be in the first place. And this seems like the appropriate forum to make these suggestions, so how 'bout it?
I also agree with KnightErrant that the adventure is not a TOTAL waste. It is a conclusion to Whispering Cairn, finishing up some plot elements, and there is nothing inherently wrong with a dungeon crawl, if it is done right. So, let's not toss out the whole thing, but instead see if we can modify some bits ...
My initial suggestions would be to ...
1) correct the errors noted above. Give the Vecnans access to message, remove the clerics' shields, do away with the barbarian's magic armor and masterwork weapons, etc. This should only require a bit of bookkeeping.
2) develop a more realistic mining camp, which might just have a small fence, entirely visible to the pair of guards at the gate (1 of which is a cultist). Miners typically travel out of the encampment at night (I see no reason for all of them to live in the mine) and return at dawn. Trying to sneak in with the miners could be one method of entry for PCs. Just a thought.
3) develop some motivations for the prominent NPCs so they can surrender and be questioned or maybe capture PCs if they get the upper hand.
4) reduce the number of encounters by about one-third. I would drop the dire boar, a couple tieflings, the grimlocks in the first room, the chokers, one group of kenku, and the dire weasels.
Those are just some of my initial thoughts, please feel free to contribute the creativity that I have seen floating out there on other threads.
o
I have not yet started running AoW for my group but plan to do so within the next month or two. Looking over Whispering Cairn I was satisfied with the balance of roleplay vs. killing and wandering in a dungeon (this includes time spent in town extrapolating from the backdrop). When 125 arrived and I previewed 3FoE I was appalled to see that it was just a dungeon crawl with fanatics and when I saw the maze I put the magazine away hoping the adventure would change before I next opened it. Unfortunately it's still the same. I don't wish to rehash all the previous points about the adventure's failings but I do wish to touch on a couple. First off, what is the ebon triad trying to accomplish that "If left undistrubed, this nest of evil might give rise to a terrible power beyond the reckoning of man." The aspect? I think not, it cannot bring about the age of worms, it can't even take out the guards in Diamaond Lake. How is this group furthering the cause of the AoW? What are the repurcussions if the PCs fail to stop them? Secondly, the adventure seems less than inspired. After reading it again I asked myself "would this have seen print if it weren't part of the adventure path?" I'm no editor but my guess is that it would have been shot down in the query phase. I understand that the magazine (especially the AP) is under time constraints and they are contracting with known authors (as opposed to screening freelance queries) but the same standards should still apply. "Dear Dungeon, I would like to propose an adventure in which a cult of fanatics led by a crazed wizard plots to raise a nasty creature from an ancient vecna stronghold at the bottom of a mine..." You get the idea. Finally, the backdrop gave a lot of good information about the town. Why not spend some time there. This slot in the AP could have been devoted to an urbanesque adventure culminating in a confrontation with Smenk and his house apes. It doesn't seem that the story line has a future for the main-mine-manager since Smenk could flee town or be prosecuted at the end of 3FoE (see concluding the adventure). Luckily I have time until I will be running it and will get to see the next adventure or two plus overload before deciding what to do with 3FoE. Still, the reason for running the adventure path is to save myself a lot of time and effort. If I have to remake every other adventure Dungeon loses value.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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In my own campaign, the party "followed the plan" and entered the Hextor temple shortly after reaching the Black Cathedral. They were able to clear the entire temple in one go, albeit with a few characters down in negatives in the final fight. They ended up resting in the area near Theldrick's quarters (and some in Theldrick's quarters).
They have two advantages that your group might not:
1) There are eight of them.
2) One of them commanded a few of the skeletons from the first chamber, which further enhanced their power.
I can see how a smaller party would prefer a place to rest, so the point is well taken.
--Erik Mona
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My group convinced Ragnolin to 'look the other way' with some very fancy roleplaying and some amazing Diplomacy. Unfortunately, I had one of the cultist guards warn the temple while they were roleplaying. The rivalry between the high priests has kept them from overtly supporting each other thus far. They entered the Labyrinth first (we are using the Shadow rather than Vecna) and after several ambushes captured a kenku and managed to convert it to the Traveller (it still fits the kenku's alignment and philosphy, but is easier for them to convince the kenku to help them. Blast the PCs' insane social skills! ;) All in all, my players seem to be having fun. In fact two of them have told me that they enjoy this better than Shackled City. Then again, the exploding treasure in SC dimmed their rogueless enthusiasm back then by quite a bit! lol
the acolytes of Vecna cast message to warn the Faceless One, but they don't even have that spell in their grimoires,
Um, they have ALL zero-level spells in their Spellbook.
let alone memorized
I agree that they do not have message Prepared.
I've never been impressed with anything that Mearls has done . . .
I can agree about his adventures. It's like you have to know what is in his head. I feel like I ate a dozen pizzas but still not even close to being full. He never gets his meaning across. He assumes you know. And y'all know what happens when you assume...
On the other hand, monster design and number crunching d20 combat, Mearls is good at.
Peace and smiles :)
j.
To add a bit more roleplaying in the adventure, Balabar Smenk will give the PCs a lead that an old half-orc miner can show them his "secret" way in the mine somewhere behind the main entrance. He will be a patron of the Feral Dog, probaly drunk, and I plan for them to meet Tira
If Mearls is so good at number crunching, why did he give a shield to clerics wielding a heavy flail? I don't remember the rest of the points the thread starter pointed out, but it seems to me he flawed there as well.
And Erik.. 8 characters? I really hope the playtesting wasn't done with 8 players, since the modules state that it is for 4 characters. Right now, I have 4 pcs and 2 NPCs, and they were all 2nd level (one 3rd level) when they got their collective butts kicked by the wind warriors (and thus gave up on the Whispering Cairn. )
In my own campaign, the party "followed the plan" and entered the Hextor temple shortly after reaching the Black Cathedral. They were able to clear the entire temple in one go, albeit with a few characters down in negatives in the final fight. They ended up resting in the area near Theldrick's quarters (and some in Theldrick's quarters).
They have two advantages that your group might not:
1) There are eight of them.
2) One of them commanded a few of the skeletons from the first chamber, which further enhanced their power.I can see how a smaller party would prefer a place to rest, so the point is well taken.
--Erik Mona
What level were the playtesters when they began 3 Faces? I imagine with a group of 8 they only would have enough XP from the Whispering Cairn to be 2nd level. Unless you ran a side quest in between to beef them up?
I'm not running this AP yet, but here's my 2 coppers on the subject of this thread...
The mistakes are numerous and definitely need to be addressed. The Dungeon staff is probably doing too much right now and really need to reign themselves in and stop tackling more than they can realistically accomplish.
The other thing is that there's a "big picture" we as the readers have yet to see. When the entire AP is available, 3FoE may be viewed as a kick ass adventure with a lot of action that bridges a couple of modules in the series that are overly ripe with roleplaying. The designers may have anticipated this and wanted to insert a lot of action to break up too much roleplaying encounters and information gathering.
It's far too early in the series to just dismiss Mike's module as a "5th-grade" hack & slash piece. Yeah, you may not like the latest development and yes there's too many mistakes, but in a few months, you will probably feel differently as the pieces of this big puzzle all start fitting together.
I seem to remember mostly liking Mike Mearls previous materials, but can't justify it with memory, so it may just be the nature of the magazine beast. :)
As far as I know, Three Faces is Mearls's second adventure published in Dungeon. The first, I believe, was Salvage Operation from issue 123.
I liked it.
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I'm preparing right now to run 3FoE in an hour. I noticed the errors with the Grimlocks and Vecna cultists, but noticed very little else. I think that there is alot of Hack n slash here and everything does seem very gereric...but I anticipate alot of player roleplay at the begining of the session that should eat up an hour or more. After all, they have just departed the Whispering Cairn, some have treasure they want to sell and my halfling player seems more interested in fixing up th mine office from last issue's Dragon.
As for the actual writting style of the module...
There were many places that the author could have and should have trimmed words. The NPC's don't seem very interesting, and some of the room discriptions were flat...though they wern't as much of a mouthful as in whispering cairn. Overall I like the adventure, and I see many places for roleplaying that isn't specified in the module. But The rules have to be looked at closer when writting an adventure. There are far too many rules lawyers out there to cut corners on module design. A player who takes up ten minutes going, "well see, the kicker is, that clerics weilding heavy flails can't carry shields..." is a huge distraction that takes up game time and wrecks the mood. Making sure that the module is balanced and correct prevents those little arguments.
In my own campaign, the party "followed the plan" and entered the Hextor temple shortly after reaching the Black Cathedral. They were able to clear the entire temple in one go, albeit with a few characters down in negatives in the final fight. They ended up resting in the area near Theldrick's quarters (and some in Theldrick's quarters).
They have two advantages that your group might not:
1) There are eight of them.
2) One of them commanded a few of the skeletons from the first chamber, which further enhanced their power.I can see how a smaller party would prefer a place to rest, so the point is well taken.
--Erik Mona
Uh, what? I feel like I'm becoming the great big jerk of these boards, but this is something else I can't let pass.
After all the posts about this adventure, I was kind of looking forward to some kind of response from the staff. Specifically, I was expecting some sort of acknowledgement of the errors in the adventure and some assurance that this was an isolated event (which is all it would take to make me happy).
Instead, we get the editor telling us that the adventure's just fine IF you have twice as many characters as the adventure was writtne for AND one of them is an evil cleric (which I know many people don't allow in their campaigns). I guess I had unrealistic expectations about Dungeon editors' desires to placate their customers.
I guess I'm done with Dungeon.
o
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I don't know what to say except "so long."
I feel that the other suggestions in this thread covered some of your original points, giving some suggestions on how to beef up the motivations of the various NPCs as well as tips on how to get the PCs into the dungeon. With that said (and because I first read it on my day off), I decided not to respond to every point you made.
That said, here's my response.
In my own campaign, the party did get a hold of the green worm, in part because they are good D&D'ers and in part because Filge's mentioning it explicitly in the lead-in info from "The Whispering Cairn" put the focus on the worm.
Also in my campaign (and in several others, I've noted by reading message board posts), the PCs turned over Filge to the temple of Heironeous/garrison, where he was further interrogated by members of the militia. Since some characters in my party have ties to the militia, it was a relatively easy matter to call them in for an audience with Commander Tolliver Trask, the cartographer Dietrik Cicaeda (one character's father), and the high priest Valkus Dun. These three learned from Filge of the strange activity below Dourstone mine, and asked the PCs to look into it. As an aside, I took this as an opportunity to introduce the concept of rank (from "Heroes of Battle") into the campaign, and made both characters privates in the Free City militia.
This can be made to work even if the garrison has not interrogated Filge, and even if they don't know anything about the green worm. There's plenty of strangeness going on around the Dourstone mine to raise eyebrows around a town like Diamond Lake.
The dwarves of the Greysmere Covenant might catch wind of something going on with Ragnolin's mine. He is a dwarf, after all, and the trio of merchants who make up the alliance would keep an eye on him, particularly due to his bad reputation from the clanhold they currently represent. If you have a dwarf character in the party, this is an ideal solution. My party _almost_ went in this direction, and I was prepared to make it unclear whether the covenant supported Dourstone's actions, but in any event they have no idea what's really going on down there.
Any of the mine managers, including Balabar Smenk, has reason to look into affairs below the mine, from petty competition to business espionage. If characters have encountered the mine-managers (via Lazare's, the Veiled Corridor, or elsewhere), they might become catspaws in a political game of mine-manager against mine-manager. Although these characters have not yet achieved a lot of "screen time" in my campaign, I put them in the Diamond Lake write-up to act as excellent lead-ins for any of the adventures in the series (as well as for side-events going on at the same time).
The stockade issue is embarrassing, since issue 125 was almost in the can by the time the Diamond Lake map was finished. In the chaos surrounding the launch of the Adventure Path, this detail was overlooked. My campaign, which serves as a sort of unofficial playtest of the adventure, had fallen behind at this point, so I only noticed this and a couple of the stat-block errors after it was too late. You look at these things very differently as a DM than you do as an editor, which is why I was disappointed to have fallen behind on the playtest and why I am more frustrated than you that these errors crept into the issue at all. I have a great deal of confidence that as we move forward little screw-ups like this will become less and less common.
In my own game, I simply made the guards circle the mine on foot, walking essentially the same perimeter as if there was a stockade around the mine. I would encourage dropping all of the dwarf guards, which is something that should not have made it into the final module.
I don't want to get into micro-managing all of your comments, many of which are spot-on criticisms. Others, on the other hand, seem more a matter of imagination. If certain grimlocks are on order never to disturb Grallak Kur, that does not mean they never talk to him. It could be that this order is a recent phenomenon. It could be that they speak to him only if spoken to. I can understand why you would prefer that the module spells it out for you, but it doesn't seem too difficult for a DM to come up with an interpretation that works for his campaign.
I would also challenge the assertion that the module involves no roleplaying. The Hextorian temple in particular offers plenty of chances for roleplaying, especially if there is a Heironean present (something that seems likely given the make-up of Diamond Lake's religious landscape). How do the players react when Theldrick calls them out for illegally invading his temple?
Would "Three Faces of Evil" be a better module if it better addressed the comments in your original post? Certainly. Do I regret that it fell short in some of these areas? Certainly. Do I think you're overlooking some fun elements of the adventure? Yes.
I'd say that I hope you enjoy Sean's adventure more, but it sounds like you might be done with the magazine, so all I can really say is thanks for giving it a chance.
--Erik Mona
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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And Erik.. 8 characters? I really hope the playtesting wasn't done with 8 players, since the modules state that it is for 4 characters.
Yes, eight characters, although it is common for one or two people to be dead or gone, so it's more frequently 6 players.
It is hence not a strict number-crunching playtest, but more of a plot "what sorts of things should we account for" playtest.
Principally, it's a way to have fun with friends and coworkers. It happens off the clock, and anything gleaned from the experience that makes its way into the magazine is a bonus.
--Erik
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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What level were the playtesters when they began 3 Faces? I imagine with a group of 8 they only would have enough XP from the Whispering Cairn to be 2nd level. Unless you ran a side quest in between to beef them up?
Most of them were 3rd level at the beginning of the adventure, except for one character, who replaced a character slain in the Whispering Cairn. I am trying to keep the levels more or less as they should be, which makes it easier to judge the deadliness of certain traps and encounters, the DCs of certain skill checks, etc.
I did run a brief side-quest, in which "someone" sent some goblins after the abandoned mine office the group has taken as its home. That garnered enough XP to push people definitively into 3rd level.
--Erik
heh. I was just about to say that I find the hand wrinnging about the errors in the adventure a little overly dramatic. As someone who buys the magazine at newstand, I only buy those issues that I find useful. Overall campaign location,plot, reasonable challenges and appropriate loot is all I ask. I have a rules lawyer in my group which was a huge pain when I tried to run Night Below using 3.0. But I managed. So people getting worked up over flails and shield (oh my!) make me laugh.
You want stinkers, take "Howl from the North by Dale slade henson... take a great first series module by Carl Sargent and force everyone to get excited about the sequel..and then give it to a much weaker author with comepletely different tone. That and the obvious money grab TSR was doing in the early 1990's made me exit the scene for a few years as I suspected that TSR had been invaded by FASA employyees.
I can live with 3 Faces of evil. In fact, its better than some of the adventures in the first adventure path.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Instead, we get the editor telling us that the adventure's just fine IF you have twice as many characters as the adventure was writtne for AND one of them is an evil cleric (which I know many people don't allow in their campaigns).
First of all, I didn't say the adventure's just fine. I wasn't explicitly replying to your message, and was merely chiming in on the discussion about a specific point (whether or not there is enough space to rest in the Hextor temple).
Secondly, a lawful neutral cleric of Wee Jas (one of the faiths in Diamond Lake) commands undead by dictate of the Player's Handbook. Any neutral cleric of any neutral god (except St. Cuthbert and Obad-Hai) may choose to rebuke/command undead instead of turning them. This is a very, very common thing to have in a group, and does not require that a PC be of evil alignment.
Thirdly, I again sympathize with your frustration regarding the errors in the magazine, but you've got to understand that we are humans and mistakes do happen. We likewise cannot float above every message board post with an immediate answer.
That said, I think we do pretty well with the magazine and with message board responsiveness, but the customer will be the final judge.
--Erik
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Eric,
I actually think my players will enjoy the module immensely. The one thing I really don't like, is that, in the sidebar about how to run the Hextorite temple, all the room numbers are wrong. Aside from that, everything else mentioned is just a quick fix. Looking forward to the next installment, we start 3 faces in 2 weeks, when I take the "chair" for a month. We have 2 GMs, and alternate months.
Erik Mona wrote:
"I have a great deal of confidence that as we move forward little screw-ups like this will become less and less common."
And that's all I really wanted to hear.
I apologize if I seemed snippy in my previous post and want to reiterare my comments about my general happiness with the Dungeon product.
Thank you for your thoughtful and eloquent response, Mr. Mona, and I also hope that I find Sean's adventure next month to be more to my liking.
o
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"Grimlocks are blind, but their exceptional senses of smell and hearing allow them to notice foes nearby."
"Grimlocks can sense all foes within 40 feet as a sighted creature would." MM140
I have not read the adventure yet, and probably not be able to for a couple weeks yet, but I think that if the characters are carrying any kind of non-magical flaming light source, the Grimlocks should be able to target them via said source.
I think the responses from Erik and the other editors and staff at Dungeon are wonderful and much appreciated. I haven't got # 125 yet, so I'm not criticizing anything yet, but as I'm not a big fan of overly long dungeon crawls, I may break it up into three parts as someone else mentioned. It's much more fun (and makes more sense) to swipe out a small dungeon in once than leave and re-enter many times (as the alert level would probably be raised to max if an attack and retreat happened).
Erik: I thought the only legitimate authority in the city was the drunken sheriff? That the garrison only cared about patrolling the wilderness and serving the Free City as a sort of outpost? In my campaign, the characters (half of which are followers of Tyr), took Filge to the chapel and keeps him there in secret, because the sheriff would probably let him go after a bribe from Smenk. Those Tyrants really do make their own laws... ;)
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Erik: I thought the only legitimate authority in the city was the drunken sheriff? That the garrison only cared about patrolling the wilderness and serving the Free City as a sort of outpost? In my campaign, the characters (half of which are followers of Tyr), took Filge to the chapel and keeps him there in secret, because the sheriff would probably let him go after a bribe from Smenk. Those Tyrants really do make their own laws... ;)
Politics in Diamond Lake is like a four-headed hydra. According to the pacts and treaties that pass for common law in the Free City region, the official political leader of Diamond Lake is Governor-Mayor Lanod Neff, who manages the affairs of the city and citizens for the directing oligarchy of the Free City (or Lords of Waterdeep, or Chief Boss Guys of Sharn).
His agents and bully-boys (and really the only people who are truly loyal to him in the whole damned town) are the constables, led by Sheriff Cubbin, who maintain the always-rowdy town jail and keep the peace in the community. The corrupt constables are not particularly diligent in their duties, which suits their corrupt master as well as most of the mine managers, who appreciate the lax atmosphere (which brings them more profit).
The mine managers form the second head, and like the official government, it dabbles in both legal and illegal worlds. A profitable Diamond Lake is a town of compromises. One must learn to appreciate a damaging political blow from an enemy, or one will soon find himself dead. The mine managers principally care about their financial interests, and are prone to side with whomever offers the best advantage.
The militia lives in Diamond Lake, but it exists to patrol the still dangerous Cairn Hills and keep the roads safe from bandits, and the borders safe from invasion. Since the Free City gets along well with its human neighbors, the latter duty is seen as secondary in importance. Everywhere, that is, except at Blackwall Keep, on the edge of the Mistmarsh, which is subordinate to the commander of the Diamond Lake garrison. There protection is of the utmost concern, for the lizardfolk of the Mistmarsh grow restless. Something deep within the swamp whips them to fury.
Many formal pacts bar the garrison guards from doing the work of the local police, but such restrictions have begun to strain the atmosphere in Diamond Lake thanks largely to the influece of the fourth hydra head--the cults.
While the Diamond Lake region attracts followers of a diverse array of gods including Obad-Hai and Wee Jas, it is the cults of St. Cuthbert and Heironeous who wield the greatest political influence. The zealous Cuthbertines, led by Jieran Wierus, wish to redeem the city from its evil nature through self-sacrifice. Their message appeals to the desperate sinners of Diamond Lake, which is to say most of the people who live there. The cult's numbers alone account for its influence, as Wierus is shunned by the mine managers and by the office of the governor-mayor (a fact that enrages the firebrand).
Wierus is also shunned by Heironean high priest Valkus Dun, who might under different circumstances be a staunch ally. Like the Cuthbertines, the Heironeans seek to redeem Diamond Lake, but they find Wierus's sermons artless and all too passionate, and his methods unnecessarily brutal. In short, they think he's a lunatic.
Luckily for the Heironeans, they have the ear of the garrison commander, who like most of his soldiers follows the path of the Invincible One. Dun and Garrison Commander Tolliver Trask hence form the tightest political alliance in Diamond Lake, and their dissatisfaction with the lawlessness in the town extends all the way to the very top.
If Filge is brought to the garrison, they would certainly do their own investigation before turning him over to Sheriff Cubbin's boys. Already the battle lines have been drawn between these two forces--the sheriff's boys are no longer welcome in the Spinning Giant, after all. If Dun and Trask get their way, it won't be long until they aren't allowed anywhere in Diamond Lake.
It's all a delicate operation, however. These are lawful men. They cannot just topple the local government and take over. But certain dispatches have sent to the Free City, and allies there are asking questions. In the result of a scandal, they wonder, who among the Free City elite might be expected to succeed Lanod Neff as a duly appointed representative of the directing oligarchy?
All "players" in Diamond Lake also play a game at the Free City level, dreaming of who might replace an ousted enemy or an exposed official. Or perhaps agents in the Free City are simply playing with the folk of Diamond Lake?
--Erik Mona
Wow, this was certainly a clarifying post.. thanks a lot Erik, I will take that into consideration next session when Smenk demands Filge released.. and when he brings his own charges against one of the PCs who killed Merovinn Bask in the fight with Kullen and his boys.
Indeed! Thanks, Erik. That's excellent.
There is so much follow up to take care of after "The Whispering Cairn", that I find myself thankful that "Three Faces of Evil" does not have so much interaction with NPCs planned.
Just this whole story of trying Filge, straightening things with Kullen and dealing with Smenk could take one or two whole sessions (going in parallel to TFoE)...
Bocklin