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In the Sidhe Scholar description for "otherworldly shifting" there's a remark about "even though she has a set number of forms she can take", is this a reference to the Times Per Day of a druid, or was something cut or changed?


farewell2kings wrote:
I agree with Dryder that if you're planning on running your AoW campaign faster than the publication and on-line supplement schedule allows, then you're probably better off running something else for a while and then starting AoW about six months later, to avoid frustration.

My campaign was undergoing a reboot, so the timing was about right.I play online though, so the pace is slow enough that it's not a big problem. (On Blackwall Keep now, for instance.)

That said, it seems a little silly to have to wait a year to use a product. That's what Overload was for, to plan out how the campaign would shape up, so you know which NPC's not to whack. :)

When Overload was delayed, it affected me, because I hated 3 Faces, and wanted to change it, so I needed to know what elements I needed to keep. I won't bother getting into the "free" discussion again. It's also worth noting that the continued delays of the "other" epic quest for DL, somewhat affected things, and when Dungeon presented their Adventure Path as X, I had no reason to doubt it would be that, and on time.


Steel_Wind wrote:
Vocenoctum wrote:

Twist, stop reading now!

This with a 4th level Warmage that doesn't really have much offensive magic, let alone fireball.

Warmage? Aiee! What's his Int bonus?

When it's a decent int bonus (+3/+4) even the cantrips are decent attack spells!

Sorry, I meant "Area" spells, like fireball and lightning bolt, which would have been available to a 5th level Wizard


Twist, stop reading now!

So, ran the assault last night, 6 member party, 4th level. I was worried the EL 5 mobs would be a bit much for them, but instead they were almost unscathed. The lizardfolk had a bit of trouble hitting (ACs of 15-20) and when they did, the damage was minimal. The players missed occasionally, but 11hp was one or two attacks at most. I should have looked closer at the druid, or just spontaneously decided he had Entangle or something, because he was mostly useless. This with a 4th level Warmage that doesn't really have much offensive magic, let alone fireball.

two questions then;
1) how did your players do?
2) how can I add a bit of challenge to the lizardlair without bumping up the lizard folk a lot?


Takasi wrote:
If the original poster wanted to be clever and funny he should have bumped the far better "129 Online Supplement" thread.

It's mainly that the board isn't that busy, so when a derivative of this thread pops up constantly (far more than the complaints of lateness do), it just gets tedious. There are plenty of folks that need FR or Eberron conversions, and the preachy nature of these "jokes" isn't really conducive to anything beneficial.

takasi wrote:


If you don't like this thread don't reply to it. Contrary to myth, trolls love flames and hate cold shoulders.

Right, it works both ways. I've posted to this thread saying (politely IMO) that it's not funny for those that need such online updates, and got the typical reply of "free", so replied in kind. My posts serve no more purpose than the others. That said, if this were a post asking where a supplement was, the same posters would be threadcrapping there and feeling it appropriate, so I don't see my posts asking them to stop the behavior as any worse. At least I acknowledge my position.


See, your whole post is predicated on the idea that someone is continually badgering Paizo. They're not.

You're also reiterating the same tired position that Paizo doesn't have to deliver on their promises.

If you want to reply on a topic where someone is rude to Paizo, I can understand, but this topic isn't that. It mocks other posters that have a need, it's mean spirited, and serves no purpose other than to congratulate each other for being good fanboi's and defending a company that's not being attacked.


Rexx wrote:
I do find it intriguing that some games are literally on top of the release schedule of the magazine. I started AoW two months ago and the PCs are not even done with The Whispering Cairn. Granted, four hours a week is hardly the level of gaming we were once capable of.

I play online, 3 hours a week. Online is generally slower than normal. I started Whispering Cairn soon after that issue, and they're currently outside Blackwall Keep, watching lizardfolk...

That said, plenty of people play more/faster than I. If they're relying on conversion information that is advertised as part of the series, I think it's disrespectful to post stuff making fun of them asking for such material. Just because it's extra material to some, doesn't mean mocking the needs of others is amusing for some of us.

I'm really not sure why this mocking topic is continually retread.


I just need to type out more of the background.

I too want to make Zosiels Circlet a Legacy Item, but the problem there is not knowing what's planned for it in the future, the adventure mentions it being more later on.


Just an idea I'm kicking around. Needs history fleshed out, would use chart 4.
The idea is for the rituals to be fulfillable within the context of the AoW also.
The goggles of minute seeing are found in Nadroc's tool rack in the Whispering Cairn.

Nadroc’s Lenses
Legacy Rituals
Role of Names: You are required to seek out the names of those whose tombs Nadroc built.
Nadrocs Finale: You must find the final tomb Nadroc designed, his own.

Wielder requirements: Disable device 6 ranks.

Legacy Item Abilities
5: Comprehend Languages
6: Lock 1/day
7: Knock 1/day
8: Magical Cipher
9:
10: Locate Object 3/day
11: Cunning
12:
13:See invisibility
14:
15:
16: X-Ray Vision


seankreynolds wrote:

Sorry, I've been doing intense Gen Con prep and neglected to come back to these boards.

I basically hit the word count limit for the adventure. I had to spend a lot on the hard details of things and the roleplaying stuff (which also depends a lot on the nature of the PCs) didn't get as much space ... but that's also the sort of thing that needs a DM's touch to tune it to their specific party.

I don't want to sound too negative, but I'll repeat what I said before. Your adventure is great, and you paid attention to all the things I believe Mearls missed in his 3 Faces of Evil. You did the best with your word count, you know how to work CR, you designed an adventure that's fun, and also fits the way the game is designed, IMO.

So, thanks again for the creepy dragon egg, and the Slow Worms, which will quite possibly result in a TPK, knowing my PC's. :)


Arcesilaus wrote:

Not to sound snippy, but as the PCs are entering a lizardfolk lair, why would they concentrate on combating things other than reptilian humanoids? It actually seems like punishing the characters who HAVE concentrated on mostrous humanoids.

o

Because the party is level 5 at that point. The rangers probably didn't select "reptilian humanoids" as favored enemies, for example. I like otyugh's, so I think they fit anywhere that there's garbage. :)

What I did like was that we didn't get a lizardfolk lair of half-fiends, half illithids and half dragons for example.


after seeing the outline, I'm making him either a changeling or a doppelganger. Maybe a Reality Seeker Changeling that wears the mask because he has lost his ability maintain his natural face.

Perhaps he's consumed too many likenesses for their secrets, and now his willpower is slipping...


So, Filge fled, falling from the roof and plummeting to his death.

Then the changeling decided to study his face and steal the rest of his clothes.

Should be neat. :)


James Jacobs wrote:

We generally try to avoid spoilers on the covers, but we can't always do so. Putting the word Doppelganger on the cover made sense in this case because the issue is strangely infested with them.

And in any event, the presence of doppelgangers in "Hall of Harsh Reflections" is made apparent fairly early in the adventure. It's not their presence in the adventure that's the suprise, it's the way it's handled.

That said... hiding the cover to the adventure from those players is probably good advice for any adventure you're planning on running, if only because the coolest thing to illustrate in an adventure is usually the climax and that's often what ends up on a cover.

My game is actually online, so I have no need to hide the adventure cover.

That said, two of the players saw the cover before I did. "Cool Illithid!" being the general consensus.


Robert Head wrote:

You and your clever treasure hunts!

So, uh... technically, we're not saying whether that's the real cover or not, seeing as there are no links to that file on our site.

The ENWorld link reading:
"Paizo has posted the cover for Dungeon #127 here."

...really aught to read:
"Someone has been poking around on the Paizo server and is sharing their discovery of what could be the cover for Dungeon #127 here."

- rob

Heh. If it's on the internet, someone will find it. :)


I'm using Greyhawk, with a few minor additions.
Cast currently, gnome marshal, changeling bard, halfing rogue, human cleric of heironius, human warmage, elven ranger/bard.

I like Greyhawk because of the neat details of the setting, at the same time it's open. The diety information is right there in the PHB, the other info is easily accessible, and I don't have to try to remember conversion notes.

Eberron woulda been okay, but too different for me. FR just doesn't agree with me anymore. A dragonlance game could have worked though.

I stopped my homebrew to go the easier/prepublished route, so GH is the easiest.


James Jacobs wrote:
Vocenoctum wrote:

Not to be toooooo nitpicky, but doesn't it hurt the entire idea of Doppelgangers in an adventure if you announce it on the cover? :)

(and yes, my players know they're in the Age of Worms set, and I'm sure half of them will see the cover. Doubt it'll make too much of a problem, but still!)

Well... the cover doesn't say there are doppelgangers IN the adventure path adventure. Techniclaly, this is true; there are more doppelgangers in that issue than you'd expect.

Sure it does, "Age of Worms: Death and Doppelgangers" so ha! :p


Not to be toooooo nitpicky, but doesn't it hurt the entire idea of Doppelgangers in an adventure if you announce it on the cover? :)

(and yes, my players know they're in the Age of Worms set, and I'm sure half of them will see the cover. Doubt it'll make too much of a problem, but still!)


The overview was as good as I expected, will be quite useful, thanks!

The statblocks I havent' really looked through, the area info is also quite useful.


Takasi wrote:


I'm guessing the DC is 15 (Soft Ground) + 7 (a week has passed) -1 (4 creatures being tracked) + 5 (assuming Rastophan the evil ranger hides their tracks) for a grand total of 26. I don't see any reason why our party's ranger can't take 20, and with 5 ranks in Survival and a decent wisdom score he's going to make this. Am I totally off on this? I'm surprised there was no mention of this in the module.

I'd say it's not all Soft Ground, I'm sure there's plenty of hard ground at random intervals. Also, I'd say others have traveled along the road, giving another penalty.

But, it's not a problem in my game, since I had a lot of rain as a backdrop. (The trio of NPC Adventurers keeps talking about going Cairn Diving, but not until the rain lets up. It's another incentive for the players not to spend TOO much time meandering.)


Printing it out now, before I read it.

What I saw seems to be exactly what I wanted, though I'll of course need to read the material before judging it's worth. I really wish it had been able to find room in the magazine though, it would have been nice to have a cool glossy version.


seankreynolds wrote:
Folks, I'm glad you're liking the adventure. To be absolutely honest, almost all of the stuff you're digging in the adventure was stuff already in the AoW outline they gave me, so Erik, James, and company deserve most of the kudos (though I came up with the worm-in-the-potion and the slow infection stuff). So the specific implementation is mine, but they get credit for coming up with the cool ideas. :)

I like the adventure a lot, for most of the reasons I didn't care for 3 Faces. The pacing seems good, the challenge seems consistent, the plot is tied and the bad guys are fun. Couple that with icky encounters like the Dragon Egg O' Worms, and it should be fun. :)


See, this is me resisting the urge to post a new thread saying "I just got Dungeon 126, and it makes reference to something called Overload. It says it's on the site now, but I can't seem to find it, where is it located?"

See, because I'm a nice guy, I didn't make a new thread! :)


Hobbesgoblin wrote:
Robert Head wrote:

Aagh! Nobody *has* to do anything. Although it's cool to see more people registering just to post here.

And, you're welcome! Although now Gary is making fun of me for adding to my workload. : ]

- rob

Cheat - just mail EVERYONE who has subscribed to these here boards - there's an easy way to do that, right? :-)

No no, we are each ENTITLED to an individually crafted email, specifically referencing what the individual poster commented to in this thread!

To do any less would be uncivilized!
:)


Vyvyan Basterd wrote:

My god, people (including myself) want something we were promised in a product we paid for?

The fact that there are so many people one these boards that would just roll over and say "I don't feel entitled to what you promised me" just stuns me.

I think the simple fact is, some of us consider the Overload to be material that should have been in the magazine. It was in the preview, and it's material that I need. The FR & Eb conversions were also promised, and folks consider them to be part of the purchase price of the magazine.

Others, consider that the purchase price is only for the actual magazine. Anything that is not physically a part of the magazine is not included in that price. Given that they're not charging for the actual PDF, that makes it "free".

I mean, if they just forget to put the next adventure in, would people be alright with that? I've been subscribed for a while, and probably will be for a while yet. But the Age of Worms is sold as a set, and I imagine there WILL be folks that are buying it as a set.


Black Dougal wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

Last night I (finally) completed the complete campaign outline section of the Overload document, which was the main thing holding up the release of Age of Worms Overload.

which is exactly what I want and is what will make this thing so much better than the first adventure path. Knowing where you are going will not only enforce discipline with the authors but also allow the DM's a good idea of what to expect.

Right, like I mentioned, this is what I mainly need, given I'll most likely rewrite Three Faces.


scootrose wrote:
Vocenoctum wrote:


It's not free. I'm sure there's no way to get you to see this point if the posts already haven't done it, but I'm not sure why folks keep repeating it.
I guess I won't, because the fact of the matter is that I paid for a subscription that was to deliver a magazine once a month with a set amount of material. They have done just that. The magazine stands on its own and has EVERYTHING that I need to complete the campaign. This "Overload" is just that, all the EXTRAs, AKA "bonus" material that did not make the cut. You know, the the extras that come on DVDs these days. You don't need it to watch, enjoy and understand the movie. It just makes it that much more enjoyable.

I think the difference here is this:

If you bought a DVD, and it said "Part 2 of the series will have extras!" and then bought Part 2 and the extra's weren't there, would you be miffed?

It's not "free" because it's material we were told we'd get, and it's part of the product we purchased. Paizo understands this, and will deliver, but others do not.

But, as I said, if you go through this thread from the start, it's not full of people screaming about how Paizo's cheating them. (there was another thread where someone ranted, but it died) Most of the thread here is folks calling people whiners because they ask when something is coming...


greasy wrote:

I am new (kinda) to Greyhawk. I used play D&D back in middle school and he play a mix of Dragonlance and Greyhawk, we where just out to kill things. Know I starting the AoW campain, and I am curious where in greyhawk the town is? I have the 4 part poster from the recent dungeon mags, but if you dont mind tell me in conical directions like NE map section on the left middle, becasue I don't know any land marks on the maps, and I am not sure which map came with which issue.

Thanks,
Jon

It's labeled here:

[img]http://home.comcast.net/~cityofgnomes/AoW/environ.JPG[/img]

Please note, I found this map online some time ago, and am only using it for my play group online, I have no clue where I found it.


scootrose wrote:

One comment... "It's free" ... nuff said.

It's not free. I'm sure there's no way to get you to see this point if the posts already haven't done it, but I'm not sure why folks keep repeating it.

scootrose wrote:


Maybe next time, you guys could refrain from even telling anyone that you plan on releasing an overload until you have it up. That might prevent some of the issues.

There's been a couple people complaining because they had figured the material was already done (given it was supposed to be in the magazine) but that has died down. It's never a bad idea to have material ready go before announcing it, depending on how "extra" the material is.

scootrose wrote:


Silly me, then everyone would complain that they should have been notified so that they could prepare for it and held off on starting campaigns until it was completed.

Um, yeah, you've really missed a few points on this thread I'd think. I should have waited until everything was out so I could judge the series as a whole. I started prepping for Age of Worms while waiting for the second issue to come with it's Overview.

scootrose wrote:


Nevermind, you just can't win. At least you know that you have a lot of people out there that support the extra effort you put into this adventure path. Hell, you could have just thrown the extras out... and just like I do with my 4 year old... if you complain about a gift... YOU DONT GET IT!

See, here's what I don't get. If we've complained about the lateness of the Overload, and Paizo's agreed and apologized, and very few "whiners" are complaining, why are you defending Paizo? I've told Erik Mona on many threads that I like his work, and I don't think we've been hostile in general on this thread, which is criticizing them. All you're doing is creating bad blood, and pouring salt in the tiny wound that is Overload Lateness. I'm not sure why you can't see that.

scootrose wrote:


So hopefully this experience does not deter you guys from releasing more overloads in future editions.

ROCK ON!

Paizo's been doing very well with the online supplements, I think they have a very good idea of what they're doing, but got way behind completing the Cauldron book. I hope future books don't detract from the magazine support as much, but it sounds more like just a matter of bad timing. (and really, they shouldn't allow employee's vacations, that's just sillyness! :)


William Sinclair wrote:

I feel this crazy urge to respond again.

And again, I feel this crazy need to reiterate something...

free

Let me reiterate something.

The people keeping this thread alive aren't the folks asking "where is my supplement" alone. Every time you guys post about how we're all whining because we're probably going to see the next Dungeon before we see Overload, create the hostility in this thread.

It's not FREE, I paid for it already as a subscriber. It is not "optional material" that will expand what's written. It's setting material that is integral to the adventures as published. It's an overview article that I need, in order to balance out the overwritten dungeon that bumped it in the first place.

Paizo doesn't need defenders, they've made their case, and none of us are angry at them, so much as disappointed that we're still waiting. Everytime you folks come in here and tell people they're whining because they expect what they were told to expect, it just makes the point again.

Frankly, I was excited to switch my campaign to AoW, but now that excitement is wearing off. I was told perhaps we should wait until more of it was published, but figured it wouldn't be a problem. Every time I'm called a whiner for wanting what I was promised, it just makes me want to stop AoW more.
So really, someone just lock this thread, I'm tired of being insulted.


Erik Mona wrote:
Vocenoctum wrote:


(by Overview, I mean the cliffnotes of the rest of the series.)

That's actually the thing that's holding it all back. I have a very detailed outline of the campaign for the authors, but it focuses a lot on specific setting and monster and plot details of the individual adventures. I'm trying to cull out the backstory and provide a short module synopsis for each of the twelve adventures, and it's like pulling teeth.

Bah! I'm a subscriber, I'll get it all anyway, so just send everything NOW! Email me if you want! :-p


Erik Mona wrote:

In my own campaign, the party "followed the plan" and entered the Hextor temple shortly after reaching the Black Cathedral. They were able to clear the entire temple in one go, albeit with a few characters down in negatives in the final fight. They ended up resting in the area near Theldrick's quarters (and some in Theldrick's quarters).

They have two advantages that your group might not:

1) There are eight of them.
2) One of them commanded a few of the skeletons from the first chamber, which further enhanced their power.

I can see how a smaller party would prefer a place to rest, so the point is well taken.

--Erik Mona

How did rest of the module go? Especially the Grimlocks, did the players enjoy the combat?

Was this an "offical playtest" of sorts? Or just you running the module in your regular game?

Thanks.
Oh, one more thing Erik, I think Whispering Cairn was a little overpowered, but you DID give plenty of breakpoints and rest stops in it. The two swarms may hve depleted the warmage's magery, but it also was the point where they leveled, so they may continue somewhat. It just seems that Mike Mearls got ahead of himself with the tactical nature of the combats and neglected a few other points. (Did he figure the EL's as listed, or was that Dungeon?)

I seem to remember mostly liking Mike Mearls previous materials, but can't justify it with memory, so it may just be the nature of the magazine beast. :)


Phil. L wrote:

Here's an idea for all those people who think Mike's adventure sucked. Come up with an alternative storyline that is both exciting and advances the plot. Then when they do the hardcover or web enhancement, the editors can look at your ideas and fix all the mistakes they made with this adventure.

Now that would be both constructive, entertaining, and illuminating.

I had posted a thread, titled something like "is three faces a meatgrinder" but it disappeared soon after.

My problems with 3 faces:
1) No place to rest. Resting in between encounters in a single temple is out of place. Leaving the mine at all stretches believability for me.
1a) my solution will be to split the temples up. Hextor's temple will be located outside the town, providing a clue to Nerull's complex. Nerull's complex will have a secret passage to the Vecna temple under the mine.

2) Plot vs tactics. There's no real plot to the adventure for me, though I do see plot elements involved. Too much text is used to resolve the bad guys Master Plans for Temple Invasion, none of which include "notify temple next door".
2a) I'm waiting on the overview from Overload, to see if any (seemingly) minor elements are needed for future reference in the series.

3) The constant stream of monsters.
3a) easy enough, I'm reducing numbers in general, but will probably make the individuals a little tougher. The overall encounters will still be weaker, with more singular combat and less looking like a convention.


I play on AIM, it is slower than "real life" gaming, but a year and a half for a module and a half seems really slow. We're in week 3 of AoW, the group just got beat up by Swarm 2 in the Workers Place.


James Jacobs wrote:
Well, got some bad news, everyone. Overload isn't going to be available today. The ETA for the PDF is still "As Soon As Possible." Which is looking like sometime next week.

Would it be possible for the Overview to be posted to the forum? I've got a lot of work to do for 3 Faces, I'd like to begin as soon as possible.

(by Overview, I mean the cliffnotes of the rest of the series.)


Erik Mona wrote:


So everyone who's yelling, kindly stop yelling at each other and start yelling at me.

I'm sure it'll make me work faster. ;)

Truthfully, the people complaining about complaints have taken over the thread.

The thread really would have died if they hadn't come out of the Internet and started calling people whiners and kept up with it, long after people had stopped complaining.

I blame your Blog's, they're tearing America apart! :)


I've got a Marshal, Warmage and Changeling Warlock in my game.

The Marshal and Warmage both trained at the Garrison, giving them a peripheral connection to the Heironian Cleric in the party also. The Marshal is simply an amnesiac gnome that washed up on shore and found the Garrison to be the best place for his abilities. The Warmage is the son of a noble of Greyhawk who was sent here to keep him out of the way/ out of danger. (It hasn't been decided whether the father is protective, or simply a bastard. :)

The Changeling Warlock was easy enough to work in, since really changelings can work anywhere. Just blaming the Warlock powers on changeling-ocity works fine for me. Of course, she hasn't revealed she's a changeling OR a warlock, but still.


Laeknir wrote:
Vocenoctum wrote:
Once again, you're telling this to people that aren't complaining. Besides the fact Erik Mona and others do actually read these threads. You're ignoring the simple fact of the actual content of the posts you're replying to.

If someone is "bemoaning the absence" of something, to use your own words below, that's a complaint. You can't say it's a complaint in one breath, and not a complaint in another.

You're directing your responses to myself and the severed head , two people that are not complaining, but merely saying folks do have the right TO complain, which you said earlier in the thread that they DON'T have the right to. This is what I mean by "ignoring the actual content", you don't read what is written, before assuming we're complaining and/or bemoaning. Then you attack based on your own misconceptions.

Laeknir wrote:


Vocenoctum wrote:
Company Message Boards are a perfectly valid place to ask about company policies. The fact we have already gotten answers really seems to back that up. It makes perfect sense to ask about Overload, and bemoan it's absence here on the Official Boards. If you consider it whining, or out of place, perhaps you shouldn't read such threads, rather than posting to them to disparage the other posters?
People seem to post whatever they want here, but that doesn't mean it's the best place, or even an effective place, to post a complaint. But by all means, continue "bemoaning" whatever you like. I just think that if you're going to complain, then make your case to the right people in the most effective way possible.

Effective? As I mentioned in previous posts, Erik Mona and the others already KNOW. There's nothing to be effective ABOUT, because it's a known issue, which they're handling to the best of their ability. My responses have to do with your attacks on those that complained and got an official response. You then decided to put in your own response to them, telling them that they're lucky to have the magazine at all this early, and shouldn't complain about "free" material.


Tatterdemalion wrote:

But no one has paid for an issue of Dungeon with the expectation that Denizens of Diamond Lake was in it.

Regards,

Jack

I would like the overview so I can plan my cuts for 3 Faces of Evil. The overview was promised last issue to be in this issue, but it's gone to a web enhancement. The only real complaint I have is that I think 3 Faces really IS too big, and the overall plot and playability would have been better served with the Overview and Outlying Area's stuff.

I think the Outlying Area's stuff is pretty central to the early adventures, so it's absence does hurt the foundation of the series a bit.

So yes, stuff I expected to be in the magazine (because I was told it would be there) was not there.

But, like I said, Erik has already acknowledged, explained and apologized, so it's not a huge deal. It doesn't mean this is the wrong format for people to complain, or that their complaints are unfounded.


Laeknir wrote:
What you seem to be ignoring is that the messageboards are not the best place to complain about something. If you feel that you've been mistreated in some way by an editorial / staff decision about timing or the contents of the magazine, it just *doesn't* make sense to complain about it on a messageboard. Sure, one of the editors may drop by to post something or answer a question, but the majority of the readers here can either agree or disagree... nothing more!

Once again, you're telling this to people that aren't complaining. Besides the fact Erik Mona and others do actually read these threads. You're ignoring the simple fact of the actual content of the posts you're replying to.

Company Message Boards are a perfectly valid place to ask about company policies. The fact we have already gotten answers really seems to back that up. It makes perfect sense to ask about Overload, and bemoan it's absence here on the Official Boards. If you consider it whining, or out of place, perhaps you shouldn't read such threads, rather than posting to them to disparage the other posters?


Laeknir wrote:
The severed head of Mike Hughey wrote:
...They committed to giving us this article, therefore, they have a responsibility to do so. I have no doubt that they will. They've never given me any reason to think it's not coming.
Well then, since your issue is more with the way the editor/staff have chosen to handle something about Dungeon, I have a suggestion... write to the editor directly. Very few people who read the messageboard(s) have the means to make the change you would like. Generally, posting to a messageboard serves only a few purposes, depending upon the audience: a) to ask the readers a question that they might generally know something about, b) to offer something new in a generally constructive manner - again, to the typical reader and not the editorial board, or c) to stir up the readers... but this only serves to polarize the readers and may actually have minimal impact on the "issue" raised.

Wow, you just totally ignore everything you don't agree with, don't you?

He's not complaining, he's saying why someone might complain. You counter saying we should be happy to get what we get, he says "they told us we'd get it" and you say to take it up with management?

Frankly, I needed that article more than I needed the adventure. There was nothing ahead of time indicating the absence of the article in the magazine, and not sure exactly when we'll see it. The overview should have been in the first issue IMO, but I can understand not everything fits, given the format.

That does not mean we're not entitled to what we were told we'd get and what we paid for. I mean all you guys telling people to "stop whining", you do understand that the customer is entitled to what he was promised and paid for, right? Erik already apologized, acknowledging the problem, so I don't have a problem with the wait, but I'm not going to attack folks that DO have a problem with it, because they're right to keep the issue current, so it's dealt with.


I think the main thing Whispering Cairn has going to counter the excessive EL's, is the vast oppurtunities for resting.


Black Dougal wrote:

I am beginning to wonder if we are overthinking this. I haven't seen 125 yet but why would a priest or paladin of heironous need any reason to attack followers of Hextor other than they simply there. Mortal enemies and all that.

Oh, I can see a case where in court the two might have to exist peacefully, but we are talking about a underground temple of Hextor in a town the servants of heironous are pledged to protect. Holy Crusade time.

Actually, it's easy enough to just make Hextor's cult illegal, as well as Vecna's. The War isn't so long ago after all.

My problems with 3Faces compared to Cairn were spelled out in a post a few days ago, which has now disappeared. Not sure who killed it, but I guess I won't be getting the playtesting info I'd asked...

Anyway, Whispering Cairn's encounters can be tough, but ample time and place is given to rest (including the abandoned house).

80% of 3 Faces of Evil's EL's are out of whack for a 3rd level party. The battles are all constant slugfests, with little to no chance to rest or regroup. The fact you're sneaking into a mine a few times to rest outside, is silly to me. It's even worse if your players are ammoral enough to have killed the guards. At some point someone will notice the mine is unguarded and investigate the slaughter.

But, I think the answer is easy enough, and it avoids the disney situation mentioned before. I may just split the temples off. Hextor's temple might not be at the mine, and Nerull's part will be minimized I think. Vecna's temple belongs there, but it'll be easy enough to fit in solo.

Perhaps Nerull's temple leads to the mine, or something. I'll just have to rewrite Whispering's end, to point to the temple of Hextor outside the city, and their bloody rituals.


That's what I'm wondering about is the playtest.

I just don't see a group sneaking in and out of the mine over and over again, and while I can see camping in one of the temples, I can't see stopping in the midst of one.


James Jacobs wrote:

Characters who have played through "Whispering Cairn" are likely closer to 4th level than they are to 3rd level, so it shouldn't take many encounters to level up once they start "Three Faces of Evil." The 2nd adventure is admitidly pretty tough, even for 4th-level characters. But then, so was "Whispering Cairn."

Whispering Cairn was a bit overpowered, but had allowances for the PC's resting. I mean... there's even a Dragon supplement detailing where they can rest! :)

Quote:

If the PCs play smart, don't overextend their resources, and know when to retreat, things should be tough but not undoable. The three factions in "Three Faces" are allied, but they aren't particularly friendly to each other. If things go poorly for one, it might be some time before the other two notice.

Right, but the PC's have to either camp inside the temple, or leave the Mine over and over again. If the temples don't communicate, you can rest in one without worrying too much, but first you have to beat the temple. The temple of Hextor is ELs of: 3 (counting the dark cathedral), 3/3/3/4/4/4/4/5, and that's assuming you handle each of the rooms individually, without the "gang up and massacre" plans. If you're one of the DM's that allows a Level Up to heal the PC, and restore spells, then you can maybe make half the encounters (assuming they level up somewhere in the middle), but the PC's will still be pretty worn out if not dead.

I can possibly see the PC's being able to hide out in one of the temples without the other temple's knowing, but stopping in the midst of attacking a temple, to retreat and rest, just seems odd to me.

I like the adventure, but it doesn't seem to account for stuff as well as the first adventure did for me.

Also, I'm not sure what the "terms of victory" are in the temples. Kill Everyone?
Luckily, I play online, so I'm no where near running the second adventure, so hopefully the web-enhancement will help me plan.


tony wikeruk wrote:
If you must maybe think about adding a "filler adventure" to bump them to 4th before you send them off to the temple. Or scale the adventure. Nuff said?

Not really. The advantage of the Adventure Path is the series as a whole. If I advance them ahead of time, that could alter the future adventures in the series.

I'll probably see what power level they're at when Whispering Cairn ends, then reduce 3 Faces. I'm still wondering about an official theory, given the playtesting.


I like the temples in 3 Faces, but for a 3rd level adventure, doesn't it seem a bit of a killer?
I honestly can't see the PC's invading the temple, then retreating to rest and returning over the next 3-4 days, but nearly every encounter is EL4, some higher. There's no place to rest, which is logical since resting in the middle of such a place would be suicidal.

So, how are 4 third level PC's supposed to survive 3 Faces?


I liked both new formats, the articles were a mixed bag as usual.

The only real complaint I have is all the White Space. There's just soooooooooooooooooo much of it!