RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Um... Can we go back to talking about favoured class bonuses instead of just dogpiling on the OP? :)
It seems there are a few options:
1) It works and it's fine.
2) It works and it's too powerful.
3) It works and it's too weak.
4) It doesn't work and that's fine.
5) It doesn't work and it should.I'm hovering around 2) right now. Any thoughts?
I agree that #2 is the correct answer. What can be done about it? The only thing I can think of that would fix this (and never have it be a problem again) is if there was a quick FAQ/Errata about the Druid's Animal Companion class feature that says "The effective Druid level for an Animal Companion can not be increased beyond your character level by any means." Since animal companions always reference back to Druid level, this would fix the problem.
That's a good idea, since there are no rules for 21st level animal companions.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I'm leaning between 1 and 2 on the scale of what I think.
I definitely think it works.
I honestly DON'T think it's "Overpowered", but maybe bordering on it.
Honestly, the druid animal companion is considerably nerfed since 3.5 anywho, and doesn't fall into the "OP" category it used to. Strong, but not OP.
And all a druid would really have to do to catch up to the Nature Oracle would be a casting of Animal Growth... Which the Oracle doesn't have access to, btw.
Druid also has a way larger number of animals to choose from.
Off topic: Where is Lunar oracle from? Not seeing it in the SRD. I thought Nature was the only one that got the companion (which is, btw, sub-par.... which is why I took a level of mammoth rider in my build).
It's in the just-released-last-week Blood of the Moon Player Companion. I actually have all of the information from that book ready to be pushed live on the d20pfsrd.com site but am waiting until at least this weekend to do so, to encourage people to go buy the PDF first. :)
So you are saying the intent is that an elf lunar oracle can be a better druid than a druid could ever dream to be?
Does that seem right or OK to you?
A lunar Oracle might have a more powerful animal companion than a Druid, but a Druid is more than his animal companion.
Claiming that an Oracle is a wholly better Druid than a Druid because the Oracle has a single shared class ability that is more powerful? No, I disagree.
As to the arguments about this being "too powerful": Class balance is a subjective topic. I don't see it as a valid basis for a RAW-based argument.
If it wasn't clear, btw, I believe that by RAW the FCB definitely affects any and all revelations (unless explicitly specified in the revelation).
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MrSnarfle, it's from the Blood of the Moon player companion; it was just released in the past week or so, and adds a number of new options (like a player race of 'lycanthropes' and the Lunar mystery for Oracles).
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Neat idea cartmanbeck. That would certainly solve many problems.I can't take all the credit, a buddy of mine was reading over these posts over my shoulder and he and i came up with the errata idea together. :)
The one issue I have with it is that there are other abuses from this favoured class bonus. Jiggy showed off the manoeuvre mastery option, which gives a level 12 oracle a +18 effective BAB while using a manoeuvre of his choice. Sunder with Greater Sunder would likely outdamage a full attack, and possibly even give four attacks as well. Channel Energy is another one that I think is too powerful with this bonus. The oracle of dark tapestry's Many Forms ability is probably another one.
It is likely that the favoured class bonus advances a lunar or nature oracle's animal companion class feature. However, I don't think it should.
In the Core Rulebook, the only option a character has for a favoured class bonus is +1 hp or +1 skill point. Isn't it a fair assumption that another favoured class bonus should be at or around that power level? Essentially of the same value as a single feat (Toughness being the baseline).
As to the arguments about this being "too powerful": Class balance is a subjective topic. I don't see it as a valid basis for a RAW-based argument.
I disagree here. While one part of a rules discussion should be what the rules say, we should never abandon our ability to judge power level. If something is legal but far more powerful than any other option, there is something wrong.
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Um... Can we go back to talking about favoured class bonuses instead of just dogpiling on the OP? :)
It seems there are a few options:
1) It works and it's fine.
2) It works and it's too powerful.
3) It works and it's too weak.
4) It doesn't work and that's fine.
5) It doesn't work and it should.I'm hovering around 2) right now. Any thoughts?
I feel #4 for reasons I've already stated.
I feel precedent says the effective level is not one of the effects the bonus modifies.
The fact that no other bonus increases things in such a way, I feel supports my opinion.
I am fully aware that there is a valid logical argument that disagrees with me, which is why I posted. I'd like this clarified.
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In the Core Rulebook, the only option a character has for a favoured class bonus is +1 hp or +1 skill point. Isn't it a fair assumption that another favoured class bonus should be at or around that power level? Essentially of the same value as a single feat (Toughness being the baseline).
If that were the case then there are lots of favored class bonuses that need to be reviewed. I'd argue that gaining 3 extra arcana over the life of a Magus for 'free' is far more powerful than 18 skill points or 18 HP.
No, I think that some racial FCBs are more powerful, and some are more situational, and that's fine - I don't think everything has to be completely and totally balanced against everything else.
I disagree here. While one part of a rules discussion should be what the rules say, we should never abandon our ability to judge power level. If something is legal but far more powerful than any other option, there is something wrong.
Then feel free to discuss that, but don't imply that it's RAW. If Paizo puts out an official class that gets 500 HP per level, a bonus feat every time you say the word 'I', and every spell in the game, that's overpowered - but it's also RAW. It might be stupid RAW, broken RAW, but it's still RAW.
Off topic: Where is Lunar oracle from? Not seeing it in the SRD. I thought Nature was the only one that got the companion (which is, btw, sub-par.... which is why I took a level of mammoth rider in my build).
Not to discourage any PDF purchasing, but for the purpose of discussion, the Lunar mystery is up on Archives of Nethys. And it is legal for PFS, despite what the site says.
]Primal Companion (Ex): You gain the service of a faithful animal of the night. You can select from a bear, boar, crocodile, shark, tiger, or wolf. This animal functions as a druid's animal companion, using your oracle level as your effective druid level.
The tiger is the only really problematic one, I think, since the rest cap out at medium size.
And if we wanna talk about overpowered FCBs, the Human Sorcerer bonus has a lifetime worth of like, eight feats.
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I disagree here. While one part of a rules discussion should be what the rules say, we should never abandon our ability to judge power level. If something is legal but far more powerful than any other option, there is something wrong.Then feel free to discuss that, but don't imply that it's RAW. If Paizo puts out an official class that gets 500 HP per level, a bonus feat every time you say the word 'I', and every spell in the game, that's overpowered - but it's also RAW. It might be stupid RAW, broken RAW, but it's still RAW.
I'm going to assume that you've only scanned my posts, or are perhaps mixing me up with the OP. I have never once claimed that I was arguing entirely by rules as written.
I think it probably works. However, if so, I also think it's too powerful and is either not intentional or due for a change.
@Mergy: Sorry, I am getting mixed up. I'm posting on the tail-end of a migraine and everything is a little fuzzy around the edges.
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No issues. In any case, I agree that there are a lot of favoured class bonuses that are powerful. However, this is the only one that I know of that allows you faster access to powers that should not be available until a higher level, and so I don't think it's unreasonable to read it both for RAW and for power level.
Consider that the gnome favoured class bonus, when used with the Haunted curse, can gain early access to telekinesis, but only if the character has the spell levels to cast it. Meanwhile the aasimar, elf, or half-elf is riding around on a large tiger by level 5. There's some disparity there.
Those FCB's were around long before the ARG, Rhatahema.
Merge, Small Druids are already riding around on Medium Tigers at level one. Is that worse?
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Oh my, no. I'm not worried about people having mounts. I'm worried about an animal companion with more offensive potential than the fighter next to him. A druid 18 companion has a BAB of +11; a tiger used by one of these oracles could pull of a Strength of 30 without any enhancement bonuses.
I'm not saying that every favoured class bonus has to be equal to or less than Toughness in value; however, let's not lose sight of the tiger in the room. He's scary.
I'm going to ignore your argument because you started with an assertion if logical fallacy. I think when discussing things that are often subjective and off the cuff that logical fallacy assertions have no place. We aren't in a debate club, a politician or lawyer where such an assertion may have bearing.So your position is that it was the designers intent that Elf and Aasimar oracles can make better druids or clerics than a druid or cleric? When no favored class bonus allows a druid to enhance their animal companion in such a way or a cleric to enhance channeling as such?
What I'm saying is, that class level is not something considered when the effects of something is modified.
Find one other instance in this game where this happens without explicitly saying such and I'll give you precedence. Otherwise you have to concede precedence to my interpretation.
You're missing the point in favor of the is-ought fallacy.
Ruleswise, it is true that it affects effective druid level.
What you're arguing is that it ought not to be true that it affects effective druid level. Your basis is perceived designer intent. You're arguing what RAW is based on what you believe RAI is.
I happen to agree that it is probably not intended that the FCB allows you to exceed your class level by that much when a cleric or druid (whichever applies) has no option to keep up. But that's about RAI, not RAW. RAW, it works.
This forum is for discussing rules. This thread, in particular, has evolved into a debate about what the rules currently allow and what they ought to allow. You made a logical claim about rules. That claim was fallacious. Logical fallacy "assertions" have every place when interpreting rules.
Attempting to redefine the terms of acceptable discourse so that your position is unassailable is extremely immature and inclines me to think that you aren't actually discussing the rules in good faith. If you've already made up your mind about how this mechanic should work, go play it; you have nothing to gain from this thread.
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This forum is for discussing rules. This thread, in particular, has evolved into a debate about what the rules currently allow and what they ought to allow. You made a logical claim about rules. That claim was fallacious. Logical fallacy "assertions" have every place when interpreting rules.
Attempting to redefine the terms of acceptable discourse so that your position is unassailable is extremely immature and inclines me to think that you aren't actually discussing the rules in...
And we are now officially past that! Let's move on please! :)
It seems like they stack to me, but it should be remembered that the designers don't test a rule against every other possible rule, and even if something is legal by RAW and RAI they expect the home GM to say "no", if a player finds a strange combination of abilities. The rules don't cover every combination a player can think of.
It sounds easy to pull the "OP" card, but that is subjective, since it varies by table. The "It is not fair to class X" card also does not work. The lunar ability calls out caster level in that revelation so I can't see it not working. Whether or not I would allow it in a game, is an entire different matter.
Oh my, no. I'm not worried about people having mounts. I'm worried about an animal companion with more offensive potential than the fighter next to him. A druid 18 companion has a BAB of +11; a tiger used by one of these oracles could pull of a Strength of 30 without any enhancement bonuses.
I'm not saying that every favoured class bonus has to be equal to or less than Toughness in value; however, let's not lose sight of the tiger in the room. He's scary.
If a druid buffs his animal companion that(outfighting a full BAB class) can happen now especially with that APG spell that lets the attack as if it is two size categories larger. There are other buffs that go into this. I do get your point though.
Um... Can we go back to talking about favoured class bonuses instead of just dogpiling on the OP? :)
It seems there are a few options:
1) It works and it's fine.
2) It works and it's too powerful.
3) It works and it's too weak.
4) It doesn't work and that's fine.
5) It doesn't work and it should.I'm hovering around 2) right now. Any thoughts?
Right now I am looking at 2. :)
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Um... Can we go back to talking about favoured class bonuses instead of just dogpiling on the OP? :)
It seems there are a few options:
1) It works and it's fine.
2) It works and it's too powerful.
3) It works and it's too weak.
4) It doesn't work and that's fine.
5) It doesn't work and it should.I'm hovering around 2) right now. Any thoughts?
I'm gonna have to vote 1
if a player finds a strange combination of abilities. The rules don't cover every combination a player can think of.Simply using an alternate FCB hardly seems like a "strange combination of abilities".
I was making a general statement. :)
I'm at about 1.25 on the opinion table offered - It works & it's strong, but not OP.
A few comparisons were offered above in thread, I'll throw a few more out for comparison purposes:
Half Elf Summoners – Extra Evolution Points (Feat gives +1 EP, Half Elves gain 1 Feat every 4 levels)
Human Spontaneous Casters - Extra Spells (half-strength version Expanded Arcana Feat every level)
* For human Bards, this can actually equal a feat a level when exchanging spells for Masterpieces.
Aasimar Bards – Bardic Performance bonus (same bonus, +1/2 level)
Dwarf Magus – additional uses of Magus Arcana at 1/6 rate (there is no other way I've seen to accomplish this)
Half Orc Magus - +1/2 Level to all fire damage spells (in addition to the potential level dip in a cross-blooded sorcerer)
Also, not all abilities are created equal – intentionally so. Are Aasimar's completely badass as Oracles? Yes? Is this op/ broken? I don't think so, but YMMV.
-TimD
I'm on board with 1.5; it works, it's very powerful, but not quite too powerful, when applied to a animal companion. I'm not sure about the application to a maneuver or something -- that's very situational and it's easy to counter one-trick ponies like that. Adamantine weapons, natural weapons, etc. When applied to channel, it's not even overpowered -- Oracles already have fewer channels per day than clerics, and if you take aasimar you lose out on an additional feat at first level from being human that would let you take Fey Foundling.
Edit: There's no rules for a level 30 animal companion. At level 14, this ability stops providing any benefit. A GM may houserule that if you continue to take this FCB, the particular revelation continues to increase in power, but RAW when your AC reaches druid level 20, there's nowhere for it to go.
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I was making a general statement. :)if a player finds a strange combination of abilities. The rules don't cover every combination a player can think of.Simply using an alternate FCB hardly seems like a "strange combination of abilities".
It's pretty complex as far as FCBs go, to be fair. You can apply it to one of 200-ish unique revelations, when the great majority of FCBs just progress one specific stat. It's not unreasonable to assume the designers didn't double-check every single revelation for potential abuse.
I'm gonna chime in at #2. It's probably not overpowered in the grand scheme, but it does seems like a major violation of inter-class balance and identity. One class shouldn't be able to so far outstrip another class in a feature that is only defining to the latter. Yeah, the oracle still doesn't get Wildshape or A Thousand Faces, but the druid will nevertheless feel put out when his companion is so wimpy by comparison.
Even if it caps at 20, how many campaigns get that far? The oracle is showing up the druid from 2 to 19.
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I'm on board with 1.5; it works, it's very powerful, but not quite too powerful, when applied to a animal companion. I'm not sure about the application to a maneuver or something -- that's very situational and it's easy to counter one-trick ponies like that. Adamantine weapons, natural weapons, etc. When applied to channel, it's not even overpowered -- Oracles already have fewer channels per day than clerics, and if you take aasimar you lose out on an additional feat at first level from being human that would let you take Fey Foundling.
Edit: There's no rules for a level 30 animal companion. At level 14, this ability stops providing any benefit. A GM may houserule that if you continue to take this FCB, the particular revelation continues to increase in power, but RAW when your AC reaches druid level 20, there's nowhere for it to go.
Oracles most definitely have more channels per day AND continue to increase that number due to it being their main casting stat.
To put this in game terms.
At 5th level.
The tiger gets,
45 HP AC: 19 (With leather barding)
Bite: +10 2d6+7
2 Claws: +10 1d6+7
It has Pounce, Grab, Rake (2 Claws +11 1d8+7)
Next Level, it's str increases by 2, its NA increases by 2 and its BAB went up by +2. And HD goes up by 2.
At 6th Level its at,
55 HP AC: 21
Bite: +13 2d6+8
2 Claws: +13 1d8+6
2 feats are spent on Improved Natural Attack, once at 5th on bite and 6th on Claws.
This is without bringing in the fact that it also has 2 more feats to spend.
I would challenge you to make a martial character who can best this tiger in DPR. Before 6th level, they have absolutely no chance. Afterwards it still holds strong.
The really crazy part is our oracle hasn't even cast anything yet.
I would challenge you to make a martial character who can best this tiger in DPR. Before 6th level, they have absolutely no chance. Afterwards it still holds strong.
A barbarian 2/alchemist (vivisectionist) 3 with 20 strength, power attack, and feral mutagen discovery can do 1d8+7d6+27 when flanking, but I don't know how a martial could compete without abusing natural attacks.
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I would challenge you to make a martial character who can best this tiger in DPR. Before 6th level, they have absolutely no chance. Afterwards it still holds strong.A barbarian 2/alchemist (vivisectionist) 3 with 20 strength, power attack, and feral mutagen discovery can do 1d8+7d6+27 when flanking, but I don't know how a martial could compete without abusing natural attacks.
level 4 barbarian ( titan mauler) 2 fighter (2 handed fighter archetype) using Bastard sword
wand of lead blades, or impacting weapon, enlarged, vital strike furious finish.
guaranteed 81 damage in a hit. 87 if you power attack. more if you have higher str buffs
Pistolero. I won't bother to elaborate.
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Not to discourage any PDF purchasing, but for the purpose of discussion, the Lunar mystery is up on Archives of Nethys. And it is legal for PFS, despite what the site says.
Thanks for mentioning this! I don't have an easy way of telling when Additional Resources makes an update (unless there's some button to send me an email whenever they make a change that I'm missing), and none of the new books were up when I first added them. Making all the Blood of the Moon legality changes now. :)
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let's take this a different route....
Is it fair for a:
Dwarven alchemist to get 1/4 ac while mutagened (pretty much forever at lvl 12 and +3 ac then)
Elves: to increase the uses of their sorc/cleric "dailies"
Gnomes: that clerics can increase their channel by 150% against fey, animals, and plants? (gee that's stronger than the "egregious" lvl 12 oracle channeling as if lvl 18)
Half-elves: get basically a free feat every fourth lvl for summoners...
half-orcs: get free damage boosts to fire spells on magus/sorc... alchemist bomb damage...
you get the point...
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Thanks for mentioning this! I don't have an easy way of telling when Additional Resources makes an update (unless there's some button to send me an email whenever they make a change that I'm missing), and none of the new books were up when I first added them. Making all the Blood of the Moon legality changes now. :)
Not to discourage any PDF purchasing, but for the purpose of discussion, the Lunar mystery is up on Archives of Nethys. And it is legal for PFS, despite what the site says.
They change on the last Wednesday or Thursday of the month unless there's a delay on the website's end, and there's a thread in General Discussion that Chris L. posts in whenever he updates Additional Resources.
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FAQ'd. Would like to see some developer input on how and why some FCB are so much better than others.
That's not a FAQ worthy thing.
that's a "ask james jacob" kind of thing (go look for the thread) or write a thread asking about that.
faqs are for rule clarifications not "what were you thinking when you wrote this"
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I apologise wholeheartedly lantzkev.
Please continue your good work.
I detect sarcasm, but on that note...
Not all feats, skills, features, races, spells, traits... you get it... are created equal some are more for options or flavor than anything.
Now with that said, if you want answers like you've stated, FAQ is not the way to do it...
I haven't seen anyone point this out, but so what if he's getting a 50% bonus on AC?
Either you are running low level games (up to 10), in which case a 15th level animal companion, while powerful, is not game breaking (no more game breaking than a cohort), or you're going all the way up to level 20.
If you're going to level 20, this FCB is only effective up to level 12. At which point it tops out with a 20th level animal companion at 14th level. Until and unless there are Epic rules for > 20, the AC tops at 20 (baring houserules at home). So, each level beyond 12, those FCBs actually become wasted, as they do nothing going forward. At 20th level, you end up having spent 12 FCBs on nothing.
(Note : At 12 you get +6, at 13 you wouldn't spend any more, as at 14 you would have 14+6 = 20 AC)
Yeah, not worried about it.
MDT a buffed 10th level AC is really powerful. I dont know how much stronger a 15th level one is though since they stop getting much stronger around level 12.
MDT a buffed 10th level AC is really powerful. I dont know how much stronger a 15th level one is though since they stop getting much stronger around level 12.
That was sort of my point, if you're going beyond 10th, it's no big deal at all.
If you're only playing up to 7 or 8, yeah, it can be a pretty good boost, but only on that last level or so. So it's not like you can't just toss out a couple of extra enemies to soak up damage.
In other words, it's not game breaking, and the sky isn't falling. There's other powerful FCB's that aren't as easily countered.
The best AC shutdown I've found was on a Cavalier, cast a spell on her to alienate her mount, it threw her off and wouldn't come close to her, so she had to handle animal from a distance to get it to do anything.
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Um... Can we go back to talking about favoured class bonuses instead of just dogpiling on the OP? :)
It seems there are a few options:
1) It works and it's fine.
2) It works and it's too powerful.
3) It works and it's too weak.
4) It doesn't work and that's fine.
5) It doesn't work and it should.I'm hovering around 2) right now. Any thoughts?
2 in my opinion.
And that would be my opinion, not just for the original example, but for many others, which haven't been picked up on, yet.
I think some vital text went missing, between writing and print; that this ability should be capped in a similar way to Boon Companion.
The effects of one of your revelations are calculated as though your class were 1/2 level higher, to a maximum effective oracle level equal to your character level. If you have more than one revelation, choose one to receive this benefit each time this favored class option is chosen.
I believe it was intended as a way for a multiclassed character to maintain one of their revelations at an appropriate power level for a character of that character level.
Not to exceed their character level, in a way that other classes, especially ones for whom the ability is far more central and iconic (such as druids with animal companions) have no means to do.And it is an ability that is so wide open, it's difficult to see how, even with the best developer intentions, it could be tested before publication. Other FCBs add a specific bonus to a specific ability or die roll. This allows the character to modify any of the dozens of revelations already in existence, or that will ever be published in the future.
The effects are also quadratic, increasing the power of a revelation, as if the character had gained a level, as opposed to other FCBs which add finite, linear bonuses, to single abilities or maneuvers.
Compare a FCB which adds a hit point to a companion, or a skill point to an eidolon, or some other minor, linear effect.
Then compare to this, which adds half a master's level to that same companion, with all associated increases in HD, BAB, saves, skill points, feats, natural armor, stat increases,....
Simply not comparable.
Let's not try to take away every race's toys.
That's a great idea! Let's take away every race's toys!
Let's start with the gnomes and halflings, because everyone knows they have the most toys!
;)
Edit: Just to be clear, this is complete sarcasm. This thread is about something that is clearly legal in RAW.
So beware of that guy's horse!