Hi Iq,
December is a fittingly 'grey' month, with lots of clouds that, this year, have brought one rainstorm after another. Frighteningly, it is possible to get used to a cold damp. I’m dreaming of a wet Christmas? Not like the kind I used to know. We never had snow but it was dry at least. I guess the UK was ahead of the global warming curve and everybody else is just now starting to catch up. But you can get used to it and eventually the rain will turn to snow.
For my purposes, the poor weather is perfect for good gaming. Everyone is glad to be warm, dry and the weather outside contrasts with the game inside. I think bad weather may tend to spur people to be more imaginative.
As DM, I had already done considerable imagining. The party was going to be adventuring in the Rabirian Mountains. They have been trying to impress the Count of Poitain. Since retiring from playing the Sims, I have been playing the Conan RPG, IMO, the best rpg to come along since Greyhawk and the one that finally got me to purchase anything connected with the 3rd Edition of Dungeons & Dragons.
So the players start to arrive and Terry, shrugging out of a damp overcoat, says, “Sam, you’ve got to see this!” As it turns out, 'this' is a copy of Dungeon Magazine No. 118 and, more specifically, there is a map of northwest Greyhawk.
Now, I have not played in the World of Greyhawk since the late 90's, but my friends know that I was and am a huge fan of the setting.
I was burned out on Greyhawk and found the Sims, which is as addictive a video game as can be imagined. Best of all, you get to design your Sims clothes, houses and furnishings! For a detail oriented gamer, the Sims is crack. That there is a huge online Sims community is frosting on the cake.
I was also not enamored of the then forthcoming 3rd Edition of D&D. It looked like a different game from AD&D and one that did not appear at all Grey. From what I’ve seen of the basic 3D&D game since taking up the Conan rpg, I was right. Thankfully, the Conan rpg does justice to Howard’s stories and makes the rules work for the setting, along with some just really top notch designs like Across the Thunder River. Greyhawker’s looking for a Flan sourcebook would do well to take a look at Across the Thunder River. The Picts have a similar Native American/Celtic vibe going.
So, I am presented with a copy of Dungeon 118 and a new map of part of the World of Greyhawk with three more installments to come. One thing leads to another and we never did end up playing the adventure I had prepared. We wound up talking about gaming instead, which can be just as fun. I asked to borrow the issue and I thought I would share my thoughts.
First off, congratulations on being named the Dungeon editor and now Dragon editor. It could not have happened to a more deserving person. Second thing, thank you for finding a way to include Greyhawk material in the Dungeon and particularly the new map of the Flanaess. On to the map.
As you may recall, I was always very strong in favor of good looking maps, for the exact reason you mention in your editorial. Maps help you visualize the setting and spur the imagination. (BTW, your folio must be a different one than mine as mine makes no mention of the Iron League on the map itself as you indicate in the editorial. ;-))
The new map of the Flanaess is beautiful. I would rank it third on my list of best maps. Darlene’s would come first, followed by the Al-Qadim map and now the new Flanaess map. It is really fantastic. It is also extremely useful in defining much that has been vague. In terms of an essential map of the Flanaess, you have produced it.
Everyone will have their own view of what is best and not so best about the map segments.
For me, the thing that makes this first map segment, besides the art, is the depiction of the Tusking Sound. The Flanaess has the capacity to feel developed, even over developed, as if the wilderness where monsters hold sway is being hemmed in or pushed back by an ever increasing number of towns, villages or other sites. I thought FtA-era products really started this trend. The Tusking Sound runs the other way. It is undeveloped wilderness and I think the Flanaess, or any setting, benefits from having areas like this, areas wide open for DM and player development. Here there be monsters. The Tusking Sound is also reminiscent Norwold from CM1, Test of the Warlords. I love that module and I think the Flanaess is enriched by having its own Norwold.
If I had to find something wrong with the first map segment, it would be the failure to include two, IMO, very neat sites. Radruundar from Axe of the Dwarvish Lords is said to be “in the Yatil Mountains northwest of Exag.” Mathghamhna from College of Wizardry is said to be in “the northwesternmost spur of the Yatmil (sic) Mountains.” I think both of these sites are very cool but they can also shed potential light on the Exag mystery. I’ll guess that these places may have been classed with Places of Mystery and thus omitted.
With respect to the magazine itself, some notes.
Box of Flumph harks back to Roger Moore’s irreverent take on AD&D, but not quite to his extreme. The Flumph as even a semi-serious monster? That’s a matter of taste. IMC, like calamari. I really liked the map of Stillsquall. That is very useful.
Shadow of the Abyss gets high marks from me for the use of the kaorti from the new Fiend Folio, a cool monster. It would be interesting to see if this goes anywhere or if the kaorti is just a throwaway. I tend to think throwaway, which is unfortunate. The adventure strikes me as sort of all over, but I am coming in midway through. The maps are, again, great. It is really nice that you can take away useful maps, on top of the adventure.
The Statement of Ownership caught me off guard. Not even 50,000? Ack! Back in the day, I seem to remember a high of 112,000 and several years between 50,000 and 100,000, but I could be hallucinating.
The Throne of Iuz is fantastic! This is a really well conceptualized and developed adventure that reeks with cool possibilities. King Bog reminds me of Jabba the Hutt. He passes the villain test with flying colors. He is too cool to kill. The maps are, again, superior with continued utility, especially if you do not kill King Bog.
I must confess, however, that I am no 3rd Edition expert. Can someone tell me the references for “awakened,” “titanic,” and “horizon walker” as King Bog is described?
Dungeoncraft is pointless. Alert the Watch is okay. Instant City Shopping is filler. Art and Other Fancy Loot is great! Now, this is a good article. I absolutely loved this! Very useful and, to my knowledge, unique. Leave it to Wolfgang Baur, one of the best! Pilgrims on the Road is okay. Larsa Essinel is interesting.
Oh, god. Wesley Crusher on D&D? Except, it is not about D&D. What is this about? Why is this here? The article does not even offer the hope of an answer. This seems like a stream of consciousness snipet from this dufus’ so-called life. Did someone start to think D&D was cool because Vin Diesel once played AD&D and so it was determined to bring on Wil Wheaton to dweeb things back up? I cannot tell you how poor a taste this leaves in one’s mouth. There is something maudlin, sweetly cloying and flighty about how Wheaton writes. He brings together the worst stereotypes of lame Star Trek fans, who think they are Vulcans, and nerdly, adenoidal D&D geeks, who will drone on in a breathlessly excited twitter about their 55th level ninja/paladin and the time they shattered the multiverse by accident through the too clever use of a passwall spell. Yuck! This article is an exercise is bad judgment.
The Paizo Catalog. Speaking of poor judgment. I have no problem with a catalog but make it meaningful by being selective about what you choose to advertise. This looks like a grab bag or an upending of the hopper. And don’t just polly-parrot the ad copy, put some spin on the entries that will be informative beyond what’s on the back of the box. Crack the shrinkwrap, so to speak. Otherwise, this catalog has little place in the magazine as self-promotion that comes across needlessly crass.
Overall then, I really thought this was an excellent magazine. One really ripping adventure (Throne of Iuz). One really ripping article (Art and Other Fancy Loot). A brilliant map. You can be sure I will buy my own copy and one of each of the other issues with map segments. I start to get that old Greyhawk feeling. :-D Very, very nice job.
You’ve done well, Erik. Congratulations and many thanks!
Samantha
I recently took a week off to fly back to Minnesota to celebrate my grandmother's 90th birthday. While there, I managed to retrieve a bunch of files from old computers, and burned them to a CD-ROM for later inspection.
Just last night, I started poking through those files, with an eye toward seeing how much of my old message-based game, "Forging the Balance," I'd managed to salvage. I'd been thinking of putting all of the posts online. It turns out I only have the first few chapters (I'll check again over Christmas), but I did turn up a log of a private chat you and I had about you possibly joining the game.
It was fun to read that conversation again, nearly 8 years after it first took place. It reminded me of the old AOL days and perhaps in small measure made me feel a little old, a lot less energetic. But it certainly brought a smile to my face.
And now this post.
It's really nice to hear from you, Sam.
--Iquander
"Awakened" this is reference to a spell in the Player's Handbook called Awaken. It gives an animal human-like intelligence.
"Titantic" this is a template that you can apply to certain monsters to make them bigger than giant-sized. It was first published in the back of the current Monster Manual II.
"Horizon Walker" this is a "prestige class" available in the Dungeon Master's Guide. A Horizon Walker is essentially a specialized Ranger class.
Wow. You could knock me over with a feather right now. It's really great to see you're still around, Sam.
Erik, let me know if & when you get those Forging the Balance files online -- I apparently didn't save anything beyond my character stats, and would like to see what I've forgotten.
It's a great map, and I have agree, the Tusking Strand is what caught my eye (though I was thinking more of the undetailed Sea Barbarians)....
Stone Endures,
Nell.
Reading this I could only think how sad that QSamantha missed Maure Castle, Dungeon 112. Certainly my largest highlight for Greyhawk in 3rd edition rules so far. Hopefully she can search that one out.
Also 3.5 is more "Grey" than 2nd edition IMO. 2nd editon turned me off from D&D for quite some time, but I know I am in the minority. Most gamers I meet seem to only know 2nd edition and Forgotten Realms now. My lost fond memory of 2nd Edition was Zeb Cook introducing it at a local convention and playing Ravenloft with Tracy. It all went downhill after that.
Anyway I also would like to thank Erik for turning things back to 'hawk after a long hiatus.
Nate,
Presently, I've only salvaged chapters 1-3, the player-provided character backgrounds, and bits of chapters 7 and 8. I'm certain the whole thing is available in some fashion, and will be looking for it when I go back to Minnesota next week. I plan to host the entire thing on my website (currently under construction). We did something like 31 chapters before the game petered out, which represents an awful lot of writing on everyone's behalf. Some of it, well, some of it seems like it was written eight years ago, but a lot of it is pretty fun.
--Erik
"It reminded me of the old AOL days and perhaps in small measure made me feel a little old, a lot less energetic. But it certainly brought a smile to my face.
And now this post.
It's really nice to hear from you, Sam.
--Iquander"
Same here.:-D What’s the quote from that Star Trek movie? “Time is the fire in which we burn?” We were younger. I know I was dumber. But we could dance. ;-) Now, you’ve got me waxing nostalgic. It was a lot of fun. Mostly.:)
And look who’s here!
"Wow. You could knock me over with a feather right now. It's really great to see you're still around, Sam.
It's a great map, and I have agree, the Tusking Strand is what caught my eye (though I was thinking more of the undetailed Sea Barbarians)....
Stone Endures,
Nell."
OMG! Nell! Stone, indeed. It is great to “see” you too.:-D
Greyhawk is one of those things that gets under your fur. Games come and games go. Styles change. Greyhawk is constant. They say your first love is always special. Whether it’s a matter of the latest dog having had its day, or something that comes along to energize the setting, like the new map, it seems that once a Greyhawker, always a Greyhawker.
While I am really impressed with the effort that has gone into the Conan rpg and as a huge Howard fan, when someone asks about gaming, I answer reflexively, “I am a Greyhawker.” I can’t see that ever changing. I think Greyhawk is in some way a statement about how you approach gaming as much as just a description of a preferred setting.
Fortunately, or unfortunately, I have not been around much. Second only to Greyhawk, the Sims really got me hooked, to the point that I pretty much stopped roleplaying. While video games can be fun, they are not a real substitute for the social interaction of roleplaying. When I heard about the Conan rpg, that realization quickly dawned. I will say this, however; getting away from it all for a while does bring a greater appreciation for getting back to roleplaying. I know video games way outsell rpgs but I can’t help but think that inside every dedicated video game player is someone who could really get into roleplaying if they were properly exposed to it and had a good group with which they could experience rpgs. While I enjoyed the Sims, I am really having a great time getting back to rpgs. And boy has that world changed! I feel like I am almost discovering it all over again! :-D
Strand. Strand. Strand. Tusking Strand. Gimme a minute and I’ll get it. Beyond the details of the Tusking Strand, I really like that the obvious circumnavigation of the Land of Black Ice, for at least part of the year anyway, raises a host of possibilities. Ice Barbarian longboats meet Baklunish dhows off the coast of Hyperborea (aka Telchuria, aka Polaria)? Now, this is cool. :-D And the Utter West awaits! Gods, that gets the juices flowing! Kickstart my heart!
I really can’t wait to see the rest of the maps to see what surprises they hold in store.:)
""Awakened" this is reference to a spell in the Player's Handbook called Awaken. It gives an animal human-like intelligence. "Titantic" this is a template that you can apply to certain monsters to make them bigger than giant-sized. It was first published in the back of the current Monster Manual II. "Horizon Walker" this is a "prestige class" available in the Dungeon Master's Guide. A Horizon Walker is essentially a specialized Ranger class."
Thank you, John. While I have the basic books, I have really only skimmed them for the most part. Its like a new world.
And speaking of which.
"Reading this I could only think how sad that QSamantha missed Maure Castle, Dungeon 112. Certainly my largest highlight for Greyhawk in 3rd edition rules so far. Hopefully she can search that one out.
Also 3.5 is more "Grey" than 2nd edition IMO. 2nd editon turned me off from D&D for quite some time, but I know I am in the minority. Most gamers I meet seem to only know 2nd edition and Forgotten Realms now. My lost fond memory of 2nd Edition was Zeb Cook introducing it at a local convention and playing Ravenloft with Tracy. It all went downhill after that.
Craig Clark"
LOL! Thanks, Craig.:-) While I was bsing with my gaming group this past weekend, I got an earful of, “Look what you missed.” Well. Yeah. That’s what I get for literally not stepping into a game store (rpg kind) for years. I knew I was missing stuff after I started roleplaying again from comments but had not pursued it. Call it Sims withdrawal.
Now. ::looks in wallet:: I see I have lots of “fun” in store, as I get to play catch-up.:) Thank you for the recommendation. Thankfully, back issues of Dungeon and Dragon are not too hard to find, I think, and may cost less than cover, if prior experience holds.
Oh, yes! With respect to 2E, it was never anything but 1E’s cousin. I think of 2E and 1E as essentially the same game, that being 1E, but then I started with 1E and just kept on in that vein with 2E. It was 3E that was a departure for me; one which really turned me off until Conan.
I do not know the real difference between 3E and 3.5E, so I will call them both 3E. If 3E is more Grey, I think it is because of things like the map and the Castle Maure article you mention. I do not think it is the rules. The addition of elements in 3E (and how those feel in play) that were not present when the majority of Greyhawk material was written, IMO, lends 3E a sense of otherness with respect to Greyhawk. This is one reason I really like the Conan rpg; it feels more natural. I know that is awfully vague but there you go. :) If/when I get back to Greyhawk, I think I would use a modified Conan version of 3E or go back to 1/2E. I should probably add quickly that I am not dissing 3E. I was there when that started and got my fill.;-) I am simply too unfamiliar with 3E, except in its Conan incarnation, to do other than give you my basic sense.
Erik, maybe you should add a Greyhawk folder to the Paizo site. :-O Or would that be the Dungeon folder? ;-) One thing you guys at Paizo should do is get your servers upgraded. Logging onto this site, even when I use a T1 line, seems painfully slow. It’s the peddle on right. ;)
Samantha
PS - Congratulations to your grandmother. :) That's a pretty cool thing to do for her birthday!
QSamantha wrote: Oh, yes! With respect to 2E, it was never anything but 1E’s cousin. I think of 2E and 1E as essentially the same game, that being 1E, but then I started with 1E and just kept on in that vein with 2E. It was 3E that was a departure for me; one which really turned me off until Conan.
I had a long hiatus from 2E and basically picked up playing when 3E came out. 2E to me became less of a "look what we fixed from 1 edition!" ("Zeb" Cook) game than a, "look at all these great kits and add on books that we are trying to make money off of edition!"
Certainly I don't subscribe to the dwarven wizards version of Greyhawk that is the Living Greyhawk campaign. But it is nice now to be able to easily model things that already existed in Greyhawk without tweaking 1E rules. Knights of the Hart and the Baklunish elementalist don't have to be created "outside" of the rules as in 1E.
I know that Rob and Gary don't see things this way, and in some ways the rules do seem overly restrictive to DM's that love a freeform game. But being generally lazy (I do buy Dungeon!), every rule that I have at my disposal means less time devising a mechanic specifically for that in my campaign.
I will say that 3E is more work in the beginning, especially for DM's of course, but certainly I think it is a better platform for Greyhawk to build off of, anyway I hope you can give it a try. :-)
QSamantha wrote: One thing you guys at Paizo should do is get your servers upgraded. Logging onto this site, even when I use a T1 line, seems painfully slow. It wasn't a server problem - we were making a few too many database queries each time we generated a page - especially the front page. We just rolled out changes that should substantially reduce page-load times, and we are planning changes that should provide a further speedup in the near future.
-Vic.
.
Hey, Iq and company.
I'm going home for Christmas. As I was Clovis the Paladin in FtB, I'll see what I've got saved, electronically or in print. Boy, that was a great campaign while it went. Lotsa talented folks. I still find myself pondering some of the campaign's mysteries - and wishing I knew what the solutions were. A murder mystery I started reading (and partially writing) 10 years ago and never got to finish. Hey, in my mind Clovis and crew are still in the woods -the Gnarleys?- talking to that farmer and his daughter.
But -GACK- you plan on putting my horriblly flowery prose on a public website? Just kidding. It would be great to see it all up someplace.
John (who had the randomly generated name of PLO987 on the AOL boards, though I mostly lurked)
BTW, Erik, do you have a scanner in case all I have is printed copies of FtB stuff? Would it be worth it to bother?
Hi all, I too must congratulate Erik and the Paizo staff on an excellent issue and the amazing map. It is incredibly well-done and is, by far, becoming my favorite D&D related map.
And I agree with Sam -- once a Greyhawker, alwaya a Greyhawker.
Cheers!
KF72
QSamantha wrote: Erik, maybe you should add a Greyhawk folder to the Paizo site. :-O Or would that be the Dungeon folder? ;-) One thing you guys at Paizo should do is get your servers upgraded. Logging onto this site, even when I use a T1 line, seems painfully slow. It’s the peddle on right. ;)
Samantha
The Dungeon Folder is really the place for Greyhawk talk related to new modules in the magazine. The best place for Greyhawk discussion is at Wizards' Greyhawk Forum.
http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=353
And, of course, there is always the GREYtalk mailing list, which is still running and can be found at the following website:
Canonfire!
http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/
This is also where The Oerth Journals are stored. Latest issue was #15.
Don't know if you've been exposed to that site yet, but its one of the best Greyhawk sites out there.
Cheers!
KF72
Jesse - I've got a scanner, and I don't mind using it if Erik doesn't have the time (I was Diarmuid os'Oisin, though I'm afraid I faded out after a few chapters - got a girlfriend, y'know.)
There's a slim chance I've got something saved on an old disk -- I'll have to dig them out and check.
Knightfall - I hope to have OJ 16 finished up and released soon -- I've said that a few times so far (and it's VERY familiar to everyone, I know) -- but it's still true.
QSam - Please take Canonfire only in moderation. We just got you back, I'd rather not overwhelm & burn you out too soon!!
Cheers
Nell.
jesseghfan wrote: BTW, Erik, do you have a scanner in case all I have is printed copies of FtB stuff? Would it be worth it to bother? Hey, sweet! Nice to see you. This is like the reunion thread. :)
I'd appreciate it if you could take a look and see what you have. I'd be happy to retype some of that stuff, if it comes down to it. I may not have to worry about it if I can dredge up the old files from my old computer. Keep posted to this thread and I'll let you know how it went after the holidays.
--Erik
“I will say that 3E is more work in the beginning, especially for DM's of course, but certainly I think it is a better platform for Greyhawk to build off of, anyway I hope you can give it a try. :-)”
Thanks, Craig. :) I probably will, if I am being honest about it. When I went to the store to get a copy of Dungeon 118, I sort of had a shopping spree. :/ All those pretty games to go with my pretty map. :) I know what I got probably won’t fit in the Hyborian Age but Greyhawk is elastic. I think I am doomed to be a GreyHeretic, however, as I just can’t see some of the 3D&D options fitting in Greyhawk Classic either, but unlike the Hyborian Age, I do not think Greyhawk really has a style guide in its source material beyond a certain “here there be medieval fantasy” feel, that feels like it could be real if dragons etc. actually existed.
“It wasn't a server problem - we were making a few too many database queries each time we generated a page - especially the front page. We just rolled out changes that should substantially reduce page-load times, and we are planning changes that should provide a further speedup in the near future.
-Vic.”
Thanks for the clarification. It seems a bit more reliably quicker now, I think.
“The Dungeon Folder is really the place for Greyhawk talk related to new modules in the magazine. The best place for Greyhawk discussion is at Wizards' Greyhawk Forum.
And, of course, there is always the GREYtalk mailing list, which is still running and can be found at the following website:
Canonfire!
http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/
This is also where The Oerth Journals are stored. Latest issue was #15.
Don't know if you've been exposed to that site yet, but its one of the best Greyhawk sites out there.
Cheers!
KF72”
Thank you for the recommendations. :) I am looking at both sites. Things sure have changed.
I can appreciate that the Paizo site is primarily in the business of supporting Paizo magazines. Paizo is expanding into selling games, however, and Paizo’s magazines provide content that is directly useful in a game, not just a good read. It is their business but I could see a place for a broader discussion on Paizo’s site that would maybe benefit the company by drawing more people in. Come for the entertainment, stay for the food. The store announcement seems to suggest some kind of expansion of their message boards to include more about just games, but I could be reading it wrong.
“QSam - Please take Canonfire only in moderation. We just got you back, I'd rather not overwhelm & burn you out too soon!!
Cheers
Nell.”
Hi Nell. :-)
Duly noted. And thank you! I read the FAQ and the help folder and see that I recognize some of the Powers That Be from old times. Moderation would seem to be in order. Even caution. :) We don’t want Psmedger to get his undies in a bunch.
Samantha
QSamantha wrote:
Thanks, Craig. :) I probably will, if I am being honest about it. When I went to the store to get a copy of Dungeon 118, I sort of had a shopping spree. :/ All those pretty games to go with my pretty map. :) I know what I got probably won’t fit in the Hyborian Age but Greyhawk is elastic. I think I am doomed to be a GreyHeretic, however, as I just can’t see some of the 3D&D options fitting in Greyhawk Classic either, but unlike the Hyborian Age, I do not think Greyhawk really has a style guide in its source material beyond a certain “here there be medieval fantasy” feel, that feels like it could be real if dragons etc. actually existed.
Glad you are going to give it a shot. :-) So far, for my game, I have limited prestige classes to existing Greyhawk groups. Order of the Bow Initiate is tied to the Gnarley ranger's...etc. That sort of thing. There are also some interesting prestige classes that fit quite well for what used to be specialty priests in 2nd edition. I guess thats what appeals to me so much about 3E, it's very open to interpretation and everyone's vision of Greyhawk is just as feasible as anyone elses. Also glad you were able to pick up a copy of 112, I wasn't a big fan of the original but the eccentricities of the module seem to make more sense in 3E. Anyway, hope you can keep yourself away from Sims 2! :)
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