Now that the first one has completed, the time has come to say this:
When I read through a normal Dungeon adventure, and decide not to use it, I'm only "down" one adventure.
One you do one of these huge Adventure Path things and I read the first adventure and decide not to use it, that's a dozen future adventures (at least) that I'll also get no use out of.
They really drive the value of the magazine down for anyone who elects not to use them. Maybe if Dungeon had room for five or six full length adventures each month, it might not be so much of a problem, but with each one taking up a full third of the adventure content in each magazine, that's just too much space devoted to something that many of us will never use.
You may as well spend a quarter of every issue supporting the old Al Quadim setting. The Al Quadim fans would love it. The rest of us may as well tear that section of the mag out and burn for warmth for all the good it will do us.
What I'm driving at is: The utility of the Adventure Path premise doesn't come close to justifying its space requirements.
I certainly see Yamo's point and, to a point, empathize with it.
However, if AP2 is as well written as AP1, I certainly want to see it. Without Adventure Paths, I previously had to string together whatever dungeons were a)decent, b) appropriate length, and c) correct level. Cauldron was a superb setting to base a campaign that took my PC's from 0-level to (soon to be) 20th. That is exactly what I want from Dungeon.
I agree with Yamo. I think by making the new adventure path more classic D&D adventure it would become "more generic" for DM use. That way maybe each adventure could play by itself (a "stand alone" adventure) and also follow the adventure path. That would probably solve this problem but I don't know how you would do it. Alas, I know there are few too many of us who don't use the Adventure Path so, oh well, might as well voice my opinion.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Paul, what you propose is exactly what we're trying to do with the next Adventure Path. We're trying to design a series in which each adventure is a great adventure first, and a part of a larger whole second. Over the course of the campaign, there will be a handful of adventures that have virtually nothing to do with the overall plot, but which offer some diversion that keeps the campaign from seeming too linear or singularly focused. This type of adventure would (I hope) naturally appeal to readers uninterested in the Adventure Path, but even the "plotline" episodes should be varied and ecclectic enough to generate some interest among the skeptics.
Thanks for your criticims and comments, guys. Very much appreciated.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
Thank you, Erik, nice to see you care.
Newfiesailor
When I read through a normal Dungeon adventure, and decide not to use it, I'm only "down" one adventure.
One you do one of these huge Adventure Path things and I read the first adventure and decide not to use it, that's a dozen future adventures (at least) that I'll also get no use out of....
I have a similar concern Yamo. It's outlined in another thread (whichever one has eighty-plus hits. I'm in the 70's I think) that was answered in a timely fashion by Mr. Jacobs. And thanks again for the reply if you are reading this, James. I for one am willing to see this next path through if only because I plan on using three or so of the last one in my new campaign and by the looks of things the next one should have a few I can use as well. I am also willing to trust the Dungeon staff to handle things. However I do recall the days when there were five or six adventures/side treks instead of a mere three in every issue (sure they came out bimonthly but I was collecting back issues).
"Back in the day" I could usually find an adventure that I could lift whole cloth and use nearly as-is in pretty much every mag. Now I still get a lot of ideas and some darn good adventures but fewer choices. One of the reasons I let my subscription slide a couple of years ago was due to the fact I simply could not find a use for every single issue.
As for worth of an individual issue so long as one module looks like something I can use either now or down the road I'll take it at the cover price - roughly the same price I paid for a similar-sized individual module when I was a kid.
GGG
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Creative Director
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Yeah, we're definately going to be keeping Adventure Path 2 more "generic," in that it isn't going to focus on an unusual location like a city in a volcano. I'd guess that roughly 4 out of every 5 Adventure Path 2 installments will be able to stand on its own with farily minimal work on the DM's behalf, with that fifth adventure having more continuity for the story line. Of course, we're still months away from the start, so exact details are still pretty sketchy on how it'll all work out.
Anyway, with our current format of 3 adventures per issue, we're pretty much back on par with those older issues. They had anywhere from 4-6 adventures per issue, but as you note, the magazine was bimonthly back then. As a result, you're getting the same amount of adventures per month as you did back in the day.
Yeah, we're definately going to be keeping Adventure Path 2 more "generic," in that it isn't going to focus on an unusual location like a city in a volcano. I'd guess that roughly 4 out of every 5 Adventure Path 2 installments will be able to stand on its own with farily minimal work on the DM's behalf, with that fifth adventure having more continuity for the story line. Of course, we're still months away from the start, so exact details are still pretty sketchy on how it'll all work out.
Anyway, with our current format of 3 adventures per issue, we're pretty much back on par with those older issues. They had anywhere from 4-6 adventures per issue, but as you note, the magazine was bimonthly back then. As a result, you're getting the same amount of adventures per month as you did back in the day.
...but paying twice as much.
Are we? No, seriously, are we? Because I don't remember the price for the subscription a decade ago, or two years ago, for that matter. Regardless, I wholeheartedly feel the cost of $3.25 per month for Dungeon is an excellent price.
Think about it, Katana. We were once getting six adventures in two months in one magazine. Let's say the price was roughly seven dollars for the magazine. That's seven dollars for two months for six adventures. Now they cut back to three adventures per magazine but go monthly. They didn't drop the price on the magazine so it is still seven dollars only we are getting three adventures per issue. For a grand total of two magazines in two months, six adventures for FOURTEEN dollars.
I do agree w/ Paul. See when I subscribed it was for the adventures. I enjoyed having many to decide from, plus at that time I played w/ more than one group and was able to pass off adventures to another DM when they needed one. When Poly came around I didn't mind. It didn't cost extra and sometimes I found things in it I could use. When the issue price raised I wasn't too happy because everyone knew the extra dollar was for Poly. Still, I used enough of it that I didn't complain. Then we go monthly. I was so excited until I found out half the mag went to Poly and I was paying $7 for two adventures. I could buy those little pamflet (spelling??) adventures for less than that. When Poly was announced as being cancelled I rejoiced. Finally I was gonna get my 4-6 adventures again. Instead it's 3/month and other info that used to be in Dragon to make Dragon the 'player's orientated mag' and Dungeon the 'DM mag'.
Let's face it. Both mag's are more DM than any will ever be player's. (By the way, yes I subscribe to both). Even when I played 3-4 times a week, 3 different groups, and wasn't DMing there is no way I could untilize all the player's info in Dragon. PERIOD. The mag is great for player's due to advice, options, etc and I'm not argueing that. What I am saying is that it is the DM alone who can use any available information making any monster, class, feat, spell, tactic, ect, ect to use at any point in time. Unless you kill off your character every hour you can't use everythingin Dragon, just like you can't use everything in any of the books (ie Complete Fighter). I believ it was Monte who had an article in Dragon stating how the DM got to have fun useing any options from any books while the players are stuck playing just thier PC.
Yes I use Dragon as a player, but I use it ten times more often as a DM. Most of the time that it is used by a player it is when I find or remember something that fits what one of my player's character profile is. The same goes for any optional book I have. If there is only going to be three adventures in DUngeon I'd rather my money go into the adventures. Bring back the Reaction, Detection, Aura, Etc section. Sure I agree w/ the decision to cut it due to space but I'd rather have adventure material in Dungeon.
AS for the AP, keep it up. Sure there were a few quirks that have been brought up but it has been worth the memory thus far (just finished Zenith's Treachery). Of course if DUngeon had 4-6 adventures per issue...
Anyways sorry for my ramblings but does anyone agree??
Think about it, Katana. We were once getting six adventures in two months in one magazine. Let's say the price was roughly seven dollars for the magazine. That's seven dollars for two months for six adventures. Now they cut back to three adventures per magazine but go monthly. They didn't drop the price on the magazine so it is still seven dollars only we are getting three adventures per issue. For a grand total of two magazines in two months, six adventures for FOURTEEN dollars.
Sorry, I'm not following your math. In two months, I get two mags for a total of six adventures. I pay $3.25 for each mag = $6.50 for those two mags. In four moths, I'll pay $13.00 but I'll get 12 adventures.
Regardless, it's an excellent resource for a minor price. Anyone seriously in danger of financial collapse needs to go collect one returnable pop can per day - a month's worth will pay for your subscription. Or, hey, cut back on one-half of a medium pizza per month.
I will admit, however, Dungeon can get rid of all the "suggestion" articles about doors and spies and settings and blah blah bleck (Wil Saves, too). I'd be happy to see another adventure in their place.
Sorry, I'm not following your math. In two months, I get two mags for a total of six adventures. I pay $3.25 for each mag = $6.50 for those two mags. In four moths, I'll pay $13.00 but I'll get 12 adventures.
I think he was refering to the cover price which is $7/ month for 3 adventures. Your price has to do with subscription cost. Still your paying for 2 issues for what we used to pay for in 1 issue.
Forget it, Katana.
I think he was refering to the cover price which is $7/ month for 3 adventures. Your price has to do with subscription cost. Still your paying for 2 issues for what we used to pay for in 1 issue.
Aha! Well, then, an excellent opportunity presents itself. Get a subscription and, VOILA!, you're paying exactly what you used to pay.
I was not referring to any cost, I was using seven dollars as an example. Fine, take the 3.25 per month you are paying. You are now paying that for three adventures. Follow? Now what do you pay for six adventures? 6.50 right? In two magazines every two months.
Now before you were paying 3.25 for six adventures in one magazine because it was bimonthly. Still six adventures every two months only you are paying 3.25 for six adventures. Half the price.
I will not a buy a subscription because I do not rely on the mail(listen to everyone's griping in the other messageboard).And I do not know what Paizo plans on doing next with the magazine and I do not want to be in a contract that is looking worse and worse by the issue. First they introduce Polyhedron( which was useless to me), then they cut it out and limit the number of adventures per month.I refuse to pay money for a magazine that keeps getting worse and worse.
Now take me for example. I live in Canada. I pay over eleven dollars per month for the magazine. Now I am paying twenty three dollars every two months for six adventures, whereas before I was paying only 11.00 for six adventures in two months. I am not sure what Paizo's marketing scheme was for this magazine but it is starting to look pretty shifty to me.Is there any wonder why more and more people are switching to shareware for the FREE downloading of these issues.
I have no idea to what shareware you're referring but, if it lets you download issues of Dungeon mag for free, isn't that illegal?
Don't trust the mail. Dungeon's scheme is shifty. Don't want to be in a contract. Hmmm, you sure spend a lot of time responding to the website messages for a magazine you don't care for.
I do care for it. I don't know where you got that idea, maybe it's from the same place you got your math skills.That's why I hate to see it falling into the money trap and selling out when for so long it has been a quality magazine that gave us a little bit of a break from the WOTC ridiculous prices. For years it maintained it's same layout, six adventures per issue, and now all of a sudden when the 3.5 edition rules comes out or Paizo takes over, everything goes topsy turvy. If it's not broken, why fix it? The only reason I can come up with is money. The mag is selling out. And if you think that any of the WOTC products or Dungeon is not being delivered on Shareware then think again. I am sure they are aware of it. It is not illegal here in Canada and the US is having ungoing court battles about it. Until something is put in place to regulate it(if anything is put in place with it) then people will continue to use it.
OK, Paul. Sorry the mag costs so much over there. Keep using imperatives and insults, you crazy Canuck!
Sorry there Katana. It's been a long week and it is only Tuesday. You never know where the anger is gonna come out.
I'll apologize as well for adding 'fuel to the fire', Katana and Paul.
The one thing we can (assumably)all agree with though is that we care about the mag and want to get the best benifits based on our own belief.
Anyhow Canada has cheaper prescriptions...
Holy Moses!
You guys are all complaining about nothing! I live in TAIWAN, and do you know what I pay per issue?
$10.36 US!
Do you hear me complain about it? Hell no!
ALL WOTC products outside the three core books are OPTIONAL. You don't have to buy them, even if you loved them in the past and now don't like the way they're doing things or if you think there's too much material for the DM or whatever.
You can play the game with just those three books.
Nobody uses all the content in the magazine, just as nobody can agree on what should be in each issue, or if we should all eat beef or not, or whatever!
I buy it because I like to use some and just read the rest, daydreaming about how I could use it to annihilate the players...
I DO like the new columns and campaign workbook in Dungeon, especially the "Starting a new Campaign" series. I just "started a new campaign" with some of my ESL students here in Taiwan and the information is great, especially since I had to teach four players the rules since none of them had ever even heard about it before.
And yes Paul, it is more expensive. Do you know why? Because if they didn't raise the price there wouldn't be a dungeon anymore.
The trouble that Dungeon had was that it WAS broken.
I believe ployhedron was originally added because it seemed like it would be a great deal for the readers. We were given polyhedron, a huge source of extra material for d20 for a very small addition to the original price.
But, it was just one of those (decent) ideas that didn't catch on.
Now, we have a monthly three adventure-per-issue mag with some good reading as well.
The only thing I'd have to DEFINITELY agree on is to bring back the Reaction, Detection, Aura, Etc section. That is just the kind of reason as to why we buy Dungeon, and not write our own adventures. To save our free time, (which we don't have much of) so we can keep our jobs and get payed, and let the professionals (who DO get payed for it) do it. It's probably the most innovative idea I've seen in the magazine for a long time.
Anyway, I pay $10.36 per issue, and I still buy it. Did you get that?
Cheers
Well, Tony, you realize your situation. You are in an environment where you have no exposure to your greatest hobby and you are willing to grab on to whatever you get to hold on to it. Sure, you are willing to pay the 10.36 American if it is your only link to it. Sounds like you got it rough. I just bought the MM3 and I'll see what I can do about your Demodands. And anything else you need. Just because I'm a swell guy.Is it in the MM3 or something else, do you know?
The demodands from the Adventure Path are in the Fiend Folio. If I remember correctly, around page 43 or so. It was nice to see non traditional demons/devils, but hopefully we'll not have such an emphasis on them in future Paths.
Squid
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Heretics :) Personally I love playing themed campaigns (as do my players), from level 1 through 20+, that takes 2 years plus. Given that the next Adventure Path is due to be set with undeveloped NPCs from Shackled City in it again, from level one, at one adventure per level, that'll keep my group busy until about 2008.
We haven't started Shackled City yet, I have agreed to run it in January once work settles down and so I have time to collect all the miniatures required and paint them. You know, that thing people used to do until the plastic blobs arrived :). Also time to convert a couple of modules from 3.0 to 3.5, see whinge elsewhere :) (actually thats done but I might as well join in the moaining). Then again different strokes for different folks I suppose. Didn't one of your former Presidents say you can't please all of the people all of the time?
As for price, it's worth it (more than worth it) and in the UK converting £ sterling to $ US it comes out a lot more expensive than a US subscription and I ain't complaining (even with a Place for Games subscription), I'm just glad to have an excellent campaign to run (and hopefully so will my players).
TTFN