Can't believe anyone could have a problem with wil's article.To invite us into this small picture of his life and experience with our game and how it can truly impact us
Who cares what what his life is like? I'll say again that I am apathetic to column until it interferes with useful content. If we have Will Save instead of Maps of Mystery or Critical Threats then Will Save should get the axe. Nothing to do with Will. He could be a great guy and a cool gamer, but if his article interferes with something that would be useful to my game I vote his column gets the axe.
Personally I prefer Will Save to Gary's Up On A Soapbox articles.
I think what we need right now are more thing's like Wil's article. If you really want game material, you cna find that everywhere...Dungeon/Dragon magazines...infinite websites....heck..i get tons of stuff flavor and otherwise from rpgnow..but what I liked about Wil's article is that its about the game in your life, and how both interact. As D&D hits its 30 year anniversary, and heads on into the future I think things like this will be more important to the survival of the game, then any amount of extra game content will help it.
Hmmm, with this many posts the discussion must be about politics or religion (or both if you live in Bush America 2.0) - Oh its about Wil Wheaton....
Okay, I'll let you go now.
The thoroughly apathetic and jaded,
Great Green God
Wil Save is a waste of a page.
In all seriousness, I'd prefer to see some ads for some new products rather than that.
I buy your products for the mechanics. Getting away from the mechanics is what I do with my friends around the table. I pay you to help with the mechanics away from the table.
That said, I agree 100% that 1 page is not going to change my purchase. If the entire product is worth the price, I will buy it. And the current product I've seen can carry a couple pages of dead weight.
But please, don't be proud of stepping away from the "nut and bolts". I like my house. I go to Home Depot to buy stuff to better my house. I don't go to Home Depot to talk about why we like our houses.
Articles like Wil Save are the bit of salt and pepper that change Dungeon from a pure adventure distribution machine to a gaming magazine. It's an interesting read about RPGaming in general and with that it is at least as intersting as an adventure but it only uses 1 page.
When I got Dungeon 114 in my mailbox this was the first article I read, then the ones from Cook and the Campaign Workbook. Then came the adventures. It's nice to have some diversity in a magazine so I am happy with Wil Save :) If we would have adventures and crunchy stuff only it would a bit dull, no?
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I admit I'm not particularly fond of Wil Save. But I also recognize that I'm not the only one Paizo must appeal to. As such, I'm willing to live with Wil Save in my magazine and it's not going to upset whether I subscribe or not.
BUT if I had a choice between Wil Save and a Map of Mystery, another NPC, or a new monster, template, race or PrC (all of which may be drawn from one of the adventures) ... I'd go for the latter.
Just got the new Dungeon. Wil Save is still mediocre, but I'm willing to give it a couple more tries.
What I am dead set against, though, are these HORRIBLE illustations you insist on pairing with it. Rearely have I see anything so dumb and ugly. The "constipated Wil Wheaton in a diaper" one will haunt me to my grave (and possibly beyond...). Please no more.
Just got the new Dungeon. Wil Save is still mediocre, but I'm willing to give it a couple more tries.
Mediocre? What are you saying? We absolutely NEED Wil Save! Otherwise, how will we know that gamers hate rolling low numbers? How else will we know that gamers sometimes reference ::gasp:: Monty Python and Star Wars? How else will we know that gaming is about having fun with our friends? Don't take Wil Save away from me!
It seems that all articles like this one are going to be criticised by one camp, then praised by the other. When Gygax was telling his old stories of Greyhawk games it was the same. You either loved him or hated him, and I guess this article will be more of the same.
Then again, who wouldn't pass on the opportunity to be paid to write a one-page story about their gaming experiances (whether it be detailing your old campaigns, your social aspects, etiquette, or even how you deal with people as people, not gamers).
For me Dungeon is not about other people's lives. I have my own, I really don't need to hear about anybody elses (there's plenty of talk shows already, who needs one about D&D). I can see the merits of such articles, and as long as the money I pay for the magazine doesn't encourage any more of these articles, it's ok by me. Light reading at best though.
If people need articles like this to break up the flow of Dungeon, then...good for them. I simply glance over the article, and never reference it again, ever. The modules however have permenent reference effect, providin locales that can be used again and again.
If it works for the magazine and the people like it, go for it. For me? I'll stick to reading the more interesting articles that provide inspiration to gaming.
And should the article ever run out of steam, remember that ever gamers and his or her stories, and that we hear them all the time across the table, at the gaming store, and even online. I really don't need to fork out cash just to read another.
As neutral as I would like to be on the issue, I read the Will save in issue #116 and it is bad. Really bad. I understand that the editorial staff has to "take the company line" on this, but that was just wasted space. Sorry Will, but . . .
When Gygax was telling his old stories of Greyhawk games it was the same. You either loved him or hated him, and I guess this article will be more of the same.
This, I think, brings up an interesting point.
When "Up on a Soapbox" started appearing in Dragon some time ago, I was fairly neutral. There were articles I enjoyed and articles I didn't. For example, I didn't really care for the entire "best aspects of role-playing games" or whatever that topic was, and I tended to skip those. I did, however, enjoy Gygax telling old-school stories from the gaming table. The reason for me was that I didn't game during the time of the massive, killer dungeons, when it seemed like the DM was working AGAINST the players rather than trying to facilitate players' enjoyment (though I'm not saying the former can't be fun for everyone; HeroQuest, anyone?). The reason I enjoyed Gygax's stories is because I could draw out ideas to use in my own campaign. "Wow, that's a nice dungeon trap!" or "Whoa, my PCs would never expect to be betrayed by THAT kind of npc!" Like I said, I was neutral to Gygax's page-long article, because sometimes I was able to glean some useful ideas, and other times I didn't.
"Wil Save" is something else entirely. I find no value in it. I know we've gone over this before, that some of us find value in nuts and bolts and what we can apply to our campaigns, and others find value in entertainment and light-hearted storytelling. I dislike "Wil Save" so much because there's nothing there I can USE. I have my own gaming group, and we have enough stories from our years of gaming to keep us going. Not only do I not NEED Wil's stories, but I don't WANT them. Maybe my attitude would be different if he was talking about the ingenious twist his DM introduced, or how he managed to turn the tide of a battle by using a little-known tactic, or SOMETHING. But telling me what time it was when the first Monty Python and Star Wars references were made seems pointless to me.
So far Wil's topics have been introducing his stepson to gaming, complaining about how his group rarely gets together, and telling us that gaming is about having fun with friends. Honestly, is this something we should be reading in a magazine about better DMing?
Is there some value in Wil Save that I'm missing.
I've been a subscriber of Dungeon since numero uno and am pretty happy with the inclusion of Wil Save.
It's like having the Dead Alewives on board with Dungeon.
jh
I like Wil Save. It's only been like what, two or three issues with it so far? Ask me again about it in three months.
I didn't have anything against the column at first but now after the third month I think I am seeing a trend that is boring me. Maybe it would be better served to have the column every other issue?
It just seemed to me Wil is already straining for nostalgic material.
I can invent my own traps, I can invent my own spells, I can invent my own monsters, but I can't invent other people's insight into the game and that's what I look for in Dungeon. The adventures are nice because they provide ideas for my own adventures, but I'll probably never use them intact. I liked Wil Save because it's another gamer's insight into the world of gaming. Chances are, it's going to keep being the first thing I turn to when I get my copy in the mail each month, and the "nuts-and-bolts" stuff is going to keep being dead last.
Maybe it's just me, but there's enough material just in the core rulebooks that a remotely inventive DM should never run out of fun things to throw at the characters. For example, in my old gaming group, no-one will ever forget meeting the mute half-orc warrior/cleric horse-trader. Adding extra feats, extra prestige classes, extra spells, extra traps, none of these things make the game better -- it takes the players' imaginations to take something like the Dragon Disciple prestige class and apply it to a half-orc sorcerer to make these things truly cool and entirely entertaining, not to mention memorable... ;-) . The nuts-and-bolts stuff is nice, but what I really want from Dungeon is more information on how to take the nuts-and-bolts and turn it into a fantastic game that everyone enjoys, and I think that Wil's article helps with that. I have played with people who didn't understand that the game was supposed to be fun, for example...
Well, unless he runs out of things to write about. Then Wil's article will be a waste of space. I hope that never happens, because I like Wil's writing.
What's the old saying? "There's no such thing as bad publicity."
With all of the talk surrounding this column, unless every single person stating their opinion on Wil Save is that is should be axed, I think it has as much of a future as Paizo and Wil want it to have.
This thread reminds me of the scene in Howard Stern's movie where his ratings were shooting up. Supposedly, people who loved him listened to him, and people who hated him... listened to him as well. When polled, both groups gave the same reason for listening: They wanted to know what he'd say next. It seems to me that Wil's getting the same treatment, from fans and detractors alike: they're reading the back page of the magazine.
(Did I just liken Wil Wheaton to Howard Stern?! I'm not sure which one of them I offended more.) ;)
Personally, I still like the column, and plan on reading it until it gets boring. If it ends up being nothing but talk about gaming with his kids, then it'll bore me quickly. But, for now, like others, it's the first thing I read when I pick up the magazine.
Is there some value in Wil Save that I'm missing.
Thoughts?
ASEO out
Despite my best efforts I find myself actually enjoying Wil's articles. In fact, this issue I actually turned to back page upon opening the magazine, just so I could enjoy his article while making use of the household "library".
I think as some have already observed, Wil is really one of us. He's balancing Family, Career and Friends with D&D back in the mix. I actually really appreciate that someone else is going through it, with the rest of us Veteran Gamers.
With that I submerge back into the lurking pool.
JK
Well, I finally got issue 116, and it was with the trepidation of a cancer patient awaiting a new diagnosis that I turned to Wil's column. Hoping against hope that things would be better, knowing that they couldn't get worse.
Oh how wrong I was!
This was the worst one yet, and the downward spiral seems to be firmly established.
All I can say is STRIKE THREE!
Cue the Fat Lady.
Change the title to "Stick a Fork in Me".
Is there a reader out there who couldn't write the exact same column? The fact that we've all seen what he is writing about doesn't make it something that we care to hear again. He could be listing the meals that he ate over the last month, and we'd all be able to say "Hey, I like to eat that too." But there is no value in that either.
This column and the art that goes with it are so bad that I can only ask that if it is to remain in the magazine, please print it on a page that has nothing on the opposite side. That way when I tear it out to scoop the presents my dumb vomiting cat leaves around the house, I won't lose a valuable content from the magazine.
Or as an alternative, print Wil's column with ink that you can lick to get high. My gawd you've got to do something!
ASEO out
At least one thing is for sure. Wil's stuff is getting read by all of us...love or hate it.
I still like it as for the art, it fits with the whols Paizio style IMHO. But hey I never took art and even if I had I still don't think it could be explained...art that is
...keep up the work you guys are doing....
Yeah, the dumb vomiting cat is funny, but only if you are not the one having to clean up after it. In my house we have a rule. If it comes out of a cat, and we have four of them, I get to clean it up. Hey, it keeps the kitchen passes coming and the D&D games on a regular schedule.
I think the point of a column in Dungeon is that it should be useful to DMs, not necessarily funny. To me that is what the comics are for.
I think that if I were to write a column, it would be called "Patchwork Campaigns". It would deal with creating campaigns by linking unrelated published adventures (from WotC and third parties, and Dungeon Magazine) into a coherent campaign stream.
This could serve to help those like me who like to DM, but don't have time to create all their own adventures but want to run an ongoing campaign. Additionally it would be served with a side order of other similar adventures that could be thrown into the mix. Perhaps each month there would be a theme such as Dragon Slaying, Pirate, Underdark, Forest Guardians, Against the Undead...That sort of thing.
ASEO...It's an acronym for a position I held while in the military. What that position was…that’s my secret.
Gott'a run...cat's puking again.
ASEO out
At least one thing is for sure. Wil's stuff is getting read by all of us...love or hate it.
Actually I don't hate it, I simply found myself flipping back through the magazine after a couple of paragraphs. If there is one fatal error that a writer can't have its failing to capture his reader's attention.
ASEO...Army Systems Engineering Office?
..oh, and i 2nd ASEO getting his own column:)
as for wil...toss him. he's dross.
You guys are going to hate me for this... :-)
Like I said, I don't need more game mechanics. I've got more than enough info on what the game _is_, what I need is info on how to _play_ the game. And I enjoyed Wil Save enough that it finally convinced me to subscribe to the magazine, rather than leafing through a copy whenever I happened to find one.
You actually subscribed just because of Wil Save? Eeek!
Wil Save doesn't give you any information on how to _play_the game unless you think playing is all about hoarding dice, quoting movies, and what ever his second tirade was about...It was so bad that I've apparently blocked it from memory.
"ASEO...Army Systems Engineering Office?" Nope.
ASEO out
ASEO...Army Systems Engineering Organization
I'm really enjoying Wil's column, keep it up. :-)
-Amber Scott
I dont need wil save. But then, I dont NEED Dungeon, either. I imagine I'll be putting my foot straight into a 10' pit with rusty spikes at the bottom when I say I miss polyhedron....
But to get back to the point, I like wil save. Its life affirming, or something (sheesh, did I really just say that!!!).
I wont miss it when its gone, and it wont influence my decission to buy (or not buy) Dungeon, but I'll read it for as long as its fun, and ignore it if it gets old before it stops being printed.
"Wil Save doesn't give you any information on how to _play_the game" - except maybe that a little tolerance goes a long way :-)
Doesn't Wesley Crusher have better things to do with his time? Like playing with warp bubbles in the Nth dimension?
If the articles were from any other writer it might be just "bleh", but I expect much more from an acting ensign.
:D
I wasn't sure when I first read the article what exactly to think, but after reading the last one I have a few conclusions...
Wil has a definite entertaining value to his writing. If I had to criticize him on something, it would be the use of “so and so” said, which he uses quite often. It’s correct in its use, but when you get a bunch of them in quick succession it sounds a little bland. I would try adding things like “so and so” responded, replied, answered, asked, or added, to name a few.
There’s another value to his column that a few have touched on in their responses, Wil is another person like the rest of us, even though he has celebrity value attached to his name, he enjoys playing and teaching the game as well. I think it helps show that anyone could be playing the game as well as showing the creative and fun levels people have in doing so.
Why Dungeon Magazine became the holder of the article is a little strange in my opinion, but I don’t really look at it as a waste of a page either.
**Edit** I thought of another reason why I enjoy the article... I have a tendency to write after adventure logs and add more character story to an adventure based on the character's player. Reading Wil's article gives me another group to look at and reminds me that the behind the scenes stuff that goes on while we play becomes part of the game as a whole. As a DM I tend to not get involved with the out of character discussions and jokes that come up, I'm too busy using that time to adjust my pre-game preparations to player character actions. As a player, you're enjoying a game that the DM has prepared, but look around, I think you'll be surprised that the things Wil describes are happening in your own game too.
Let me add my vote to the "like Wil Save" column.
(And I disliked many of Gygax's columns in Dragon, FWIW. Some were amusing or interesting, but most didn't work for me.)
Wil Save is DUNGEON Magazine's Jar-jar Binks.
"ASEO...Army Systems Engineering Organization"
Nope
ASEO out
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I expected that Wil Save would be controversial. I received this month's issue of Dungeon and flipped straight to Wil Save. And once agan I LOVED it.
A friend of mine recently put in perspective. It's fluff vs crunch. My biggest complaint about Dragon and Dungeon is the over abundance of crunch.
There's only so many new Prestige Classes I can use. There's only so many new Feats and Skills that I can use. I don't play the game just to see how big I can get the numbers. I play for social interaction and creativity. Fluff.
Gygax's article was the first thing I turned to in Dragon before it was axed. I like the fluff and regret there is so little of it.
I gotta ask a question. Why did they choose Wil Wheaton to do this article? His career is over and I don't respect his opinion. I would much rather read an article about Erik Mona's and James Jacobs' role playing experiences, people who I know would run a good campaign and have some interesting spins to tell. How about that guys? You could axe Wil and save the money you are paying him by writing your own tidbits. I would certainly appreciate it more and I am sure there are some others who would as well. Just because a guy has a "celebrity" status associated with his name mean I want to hear about his take on D&D.He didn't build his career on it.
What Wil Save should be.
I love first level
I’ve been gaming for over 22 years now. In that time I’ve played hundreds of characters, and DMed hundreds of sessions. Through out all that time and all those games, I’ve learned something. First level Rocks!
As a player, you hold in your hand a newly created character. It could be an old classic like the Human Cleric, or a new twist that you want to try out like a Dwarven Wizard. Perhaps it is the beginning of a new path of feats, or weapons. Whether it is a new character concept, or an old faithful, it is a new beginning. First level is a proving ground. Anyone can create a third level character. But could that character survive to have become third level if they had started at first?
With that comes the true test of a player. Can your character survive the most realistic aspects of this fantasy game? First level hit points. At first level an enemy with a rusty dagger is a threat. A single arrow can kill. An enemy Orc with a Great Axe is the terror of the battlefield. And that is life.
Having served in Iraq I know it would be great to be able to take the most grievous wound an enemy weapon could cause and walk away. But life isn’t like that, and neither is first level. At first level play requires more than charging the enemy. It requires teamwork, asset allocation, spell conservation and player skill. And, oh yeah, a bit of luck.
You can’t be stupid at first level. You can’t throw open a chest and count on your hit points to absorb any damage that you may take if it is trapped. You can’t calculate the height of a cliff then jump the 40 feet knowing you’ll survive to join the fight at the bottom. At first level, it’s just you and the Orc in the 10 x10 room. and in two rounds, only one of you is walking out.
But with the threat of imminent death at the hands of a blind kobold with a half spear come rewards as well. First level characters rarely can afford all the equipment they want or require. Remember when a plain old chain shirt was a treasure? A composite long bow something you’d claim from your fallen foe. And Holy Cow! A masterwork dagger! Treasures were things that your character didn’t have, things you needed but could not afford in character creation. Copper coins are collected at first level. Gold coins are not dropped in favor of platinum ones. The enemy’s battle axe is even dragged back to town to be sold.
There is also power in first level. This comes from the DM. Where else can you kill a foe with one slice of your sword and still have it be a challenge. Where else can a wizard’s single magic missile turn the tide of battle. Never have I seen players standing closer to the table and sweating each die roll than when their first level characters were in battle.
As a DM, I’ve run an entire campaign with a set of characters whose hit points never rose above their first level maximums. It was a military campaign, and the characters were heroes in the army of humans and demi-humans that were facing the advancing tide of a Goblin army. As characters accumulated experience points they advanced in level, with all the benefits associated with a level advance…except hit points. Their skills, their equipment and their luck allowed then to persevere, not their hit points. Multi classing was rampant because like in life, stealth is often better than force. The ability to cast healing spells drove the characters to religion. Fighting skills ensured all could properly wield all manner of weapons.
As the DM it was my job to ensure the players had fun. Because of their low hit points, I kept their foes on the same footing. Missions included clearing enemy goblin pickets so that the cavalry could get close to the enemy camp to make a raid with out being spotted. They found them selves fighting foes on the field of battle. The heroes assassinated high value enemy leaders and prevented the enemy from creating new alliances. Prisoners were rescued and fortresses besieged. And all where a single arrow could kill and a fireball could kill a regiment. There are so many low level creatures in the different Monster Manuals that it was easy to keep play interesting. There are also so many great first level adventures that play was always new and exciting. And you should have seen their eyes when a Troll waded across the battlefield in their direction.
Now I’ll admit that first level isn’t for everyone. If you are playing Tieflings, Half Dragons or Half Ogres, you probably know that you won’t get your eventual +5 Holy Keen Vorpal Flaming weapon at first level. Power gamers know that they can’t challenge the gods or rule kingdoms at first level.
But if you are looking for that cinema graphic play... looking for one shot one kill… want your players’ hands to sweat as they reach for their dice… looking for the true skill of your players putting their newest characters lives on the line…Look no further than first level.
ASEO out
I could take or leave this article. It's only one page and the last one to boot.
I just want my DnD.
I gotta ask a question. Why did they choose Wil Wheaton to do this article?
We chose Wil to do the article because even before he was a famous actor, he was a gamer. Acting is Wil's job, gaming is his hobby (just like a lot of us). He's always talking on his blog about old games, new games, playing D&D, playing GURPS or Mutants & Masterminds. He's also a very amazing writer with a great voice and a great feel for what makes being a geek so cool. We figured why have him only write for his blog about games, D&D in particular.
So, that's why we picked him.
The reason we didn't have James or Erik write the column was two-fold. They both already get to speak in the editorial, and they spend all their time developing, editing and writing other articles for the magazines. Best not to pile more work on those two, because if they explode and go postal, I'm only one wall away.
Sean Glenn
Art Director Dragon and Dungeon magazines
Wil Save doesn't do anything for me, nor does Downer. I'd be happy to see them both go but am not sweating it too much since they take up so little space.
Everything else about Dungeon since the relaunch is top notch. Keep up the good work!
I gotta ask a question. Why did they choose Wil Wheaton to do this article?The reason we didn't have James or Erik write the column was two-fold. They both already get to speak in the editorial, and they spend all their time developing, editing and writing other articles for the magazines. Best not to pile more work on those two, because if they explode and go postal, I'm only one wall away.
Sean Glenn
Art Director Dragon and Dungeon magazines
I actually find Erik's columns pretty similar to Wil's. I realize that Erik is usually pushing his agenda and pointing out upcoming issues of interest but he generally has good bits of gaming nostalgia that I find worth reading. Just my opinion, but Wil's column has already become pretty derivative. Certainly not a subscription breaker for me but I think as time goes on he is going to become more and more strained for material. Bi-monthly? Map of Mystery?
What Wil Save should be.
I love first level
I’ve been gaming for over 22 years now. In that time I’ve played hundreds of characters, and DMed hundreds of sessions. Through out all that time and all those games, I’ve learned something. First level Rocks!
Sorry for the snippage. ASEO, that's the kind of article I'd LOVE to see in Dungeon. But since you posted it here, I'm going to go make a thread about it. :-)
(No comment on Wil Save since I haven't received 117 yet.)