1) In some areas, commercial software is almost always better than community-produced software (e.g. support, documentation, user interface quality -- basically the parts that aren't sexy to most developers)2) Much (where much is defined as a percentage of total projects available) community-produced software is crap.
3) Much (where much is defined as percentage of how often people actually use it) community-produced software can be quite good.
Caveat to all three: Enterprise software.
It is almost all hard to use, poorly documented, and weakly supported (as far as USING the software goes). And that's the commercial software.But I digress. Community produced software doesn't have to be non-intuitive and hard to use. It just seems that's how all the current community driven, free tabletop projects are.
Caveat to all three: Enterprise software.
It is almost all hard to use, poorly documented, and weakly supported (as far as USING the software goes). And that's the commercial software.But I digress. Community produced software doesn't have to be non-intuitive and hard to use. It just seems that's how all the current community driven, free tabletop projects are.
Ugg, hate 90% of all enterprise software.
And I think the main problem with community software being non-intuitive or at least the user inferface is that it's REALLY hard to attract people that have experience with user interface skillsets.
Back on topic here rather than arguing about the merits of the cathedral vs. the bazaar...
Do either of these tools (or something else) have much in the way of encounter autogeneration?
For example, let's say I want a CR 10 encounter with drow. Does there exist anything that would let me specify just that and pick reasonable defaults in terms of what the enemies would be, their skill picks, their feat picks, prepared spells, etc.?
Or even: let's say I want a CR 12 dire ape encounter. Does there exist anything that I could feed just that information and have it do the advancing for me?
I think something like the user interface of Herolab (as I understand how to use it, which is certainly incomplete) is perfectly reasonable when I'm building a PC, but when I want 5 classed orcs in an encounter I feel like I'm probably better off just doing it by hand, and doing that encounter completely by hand is not fun or fast. Worse, I might crunch it all out and then come to the conclusion that it wouldn't challenge my party at all.
HeroLab doesn't have an auto-encounter generator.
What it does have is all the monsters from Bestiary 1 & 2, and all the NPCs from the GameMastery Guide already entered. It can also have multiple NPCs contained in the same portfolio, so you can have one file with your orc warband, you just click on each member's tab to call them up.
HeroLab doesn't have an auto-encounter generator.
What it does have is all the monsters from Bestiary 1 & 2, and all the NPCs from the GameMastery Guide already entered. It can also have multiple NPCs contained in the same portfolio, so you can have one file with your orc warband, you just click on each member's tab to call them up.
Right. So what DOES have an auto-encounter generator? Anything?
*sighs*
Okay, so what, if anything, does have an encounter generator for Pathfinder?
*sighs*
Okay, so what, if anything, does have an encounter generator for Pathfinder?
APs
*sighs*
Okay, so what, if anything, does have an encounter generator for Pathfinder?
Nothing, AFAIK.
Kinda late to the party, but after reading this thread, I tried both PCgen and HeroLab.
Note, I am a programmer, and I work with computer interfaces in several different OSes all the time. I still found PCgen's interface to be arcane and counter intuitive. Herolab has been pretty easy to pick up.
The second strike against PCgen was lack of support of Ultimate Magic. The latest data files only have support for APG, so if I want to use something from UM, I have to implement it myself. I am sure UM support will be there eventually, but there does seem to be a significant lag between PCgen and Herolab data files.
One strike against Herolab is that I made a Alchemist(Vivisectionist). It downgraded my bomb damage to 0d6 instead of removing it entirely. fine, I can live with that, but herolab insists that my bombs are still my primary form of attack, and insists on printing them on the front page while the rest of my weapons are on page 2.
Still, you are looking at $130 on Herolab for the basic rules, APG, UM, Bestary 1 + 2, and all the racial and regional splat books. Expect to pay another $20 when the data files for UC are available.
Sidenote: After dealing with all of the headaches of using Army Builder because Games Workshop is anal about protecting their copyright, and is very reluctant to license anything out to other companies(because they might possibly at somepoint in the distant future do it themselves), it is very refreshing to see a publisher who is actively partnering with someone like Lone Wolf instead of putting all sorts of arbitrary restrictions that just make life a pain for the end user.
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Back on topic here rather than arguing about the merits of the cathedral vs. the bazaar...
Do either of these tools (or something else) have much in the way of encounter autogeneration?
For example, let's say I want a CR 10 encounter with drow. Does there exist anything that would let me specify just that and pick reasonable defaults in terms of what the enemies would be, their skill picks, their feat picks, prepared spells, etc.?
Or even: let's say I want a CR 12 dire ape encounter. Does there exist anything that I could feed just that information and have it do the advancing for me?
I think something like the user interface of Herolab (as I understand how to use it, which is certainly incomplete) is perfectly reasonable when I'm building a PC, but when I want 5 classed orcs in an encounter I feel like I'm probably better off just doing it by hand, and doing that encounter completely by hand is not fun or fast. Worse, I might crunch it all out and then come to the conclusion that it wouldn't challenge my party at all.
I do not think that Two Wolves fully understood what you were saying. Yes there is every monster from the Bestiary's in Hero Labs, as well as the NPC's too. But with each monster it is simply a matter of adding a template for the monster to advance it. Lets just say you want a Drow with a CR 10... it would look something like this:
This took me less then 3 minutes to build to eleventh level with no gear and I probably could have gone quicker if I had paid attention to it hehe as I was also watching TV.
This dark-skinned elf stands in a battle-ready pose, her hair silver and eyes white and pupilless.
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DROW CR 10
Male Drow Ranger 11
CE Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +3; Senses Darkvision (120 feet), Low-Light Vision; Perception +15
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DEFENSE
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AC 16, touch 13, flat-footed 13. . (+2 armor, +1 shield, +3 Dex)
hp 82 (11d10+22)
Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +2
Defensive Abilities Evasion; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities; SR 17
Weakness Light Blindness
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Rapier +14/+9/+4 (1d6+3/18-20/x2) and
. . Shield, Light Steel +14/+9/+4 (1d3+3/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +14/+9/+4 (1d3+3/20/x2)
Ranged Crossbow, Hand +14/+9/+4 (1d4/19-20/x2)
Spell-Like Abilities Dancing Lights (1/day), Darkness (1/day), Faerie Fire (1/day)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 8, 14 melee touch, 14 ranged touch):
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STATISTICS
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Str 17, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 12
Base Atk +11; CMB +14; CMD 27
Feats Endurance, Greater Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Stealthy, Step Up, Two-weapon Defense, Two-weapon Fighting, Vital Strike, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Scimitar
Skills Acrobatics +2, Climb +16, Escape Artist +4, Fly +2, Intimidate +15, Knowledge: Dungeoneering +15, Knowledge: Nobility +6, Knowledge: The Planes +3, Perception +15, Ride +9, Spellcraft +15, Stealth +20, Survival +13, Swim +2
Languages Drow Sign Language, Elven, Undercommon
SQ Enemies: Humanoids (Dwarf) (+4 bonus) (Ex), Enemies: Humanoids (Elf) (+4 bonus) (Ex), Enemies: Humanoids (Human) (+2 bonus) (Ex), Hunting Companions (1 rounds) (Ex), Poison Use (Ex), Quarry, Swift Tracker (Ex), Terrains: Underground (+4 bonus) (Ex), Terrains: Urban (+2 bonus) (Ex), Track +5, Wild Empathy +12 (Ex), Woodland Stride (Ex)
Combat Gear Bolts, Crossbow (20), Crossbow, Hand, Leather, Rapier, Shield, Light Steel; Other Gear Drow Poison (2)
--------------------
ECOLOGY
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Environment Underground
Organization Pair, squad (3-4), patrol (5-8), or war party (10-40)
Treasure NPC Gear (leather armor, light steel shield, rapier, hand crossbow with 20 bolts, drow poison [2 doses], 3d6 gp, other treasure)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Dancing Lights (1/day) (Sp) Cast Dancing Lights once per day.
Darkness (1/day) (Sp) Cast Darkness once per day.
Darkvision (120 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Drow Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Enemies: Humanoids (Dwarf) (+4 bonus) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Humanoids (Dwarf).
Enemies: Humanoids (Elf) (+4 bonus) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Humanoids (Elf).
Enemies: Humanoids (Human) (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Humanoids (Human).
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Faerie Fire (1/day) (Sp) Cast Faerie Fire once per day.
Hunting Companions (1 rounds) (Ex) Grant half favored enemy bonus to allies within 30' as move action.
Light Blindness (Ex) Blinded for 1r in bright light, dazzled as long as they remain in it.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Poison Use (Ex) You do not risk poisoning yourself accidently while poisoning a weapon.
Quarry +2 to hit and other bonuses against your designated quarry.
Spell Resistance (17) You have Spell Resistance.
Step Up You may make a 5' step closer when your opponent makes a 5' step away from you.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Terrains: Underground (+4 bonus) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Underground.
Terrains: Urban (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Urban.
Track +5 +5 to survival checks to track.
Two-weapon Defense +1 to AC while wielding 2 weapons. +2 when doing so defensively.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Wild Empathy +12 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
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Kinda late to the party, but after reading this thread, I tried both PCgen and HeroLab.
Note, I am a programmer, and I work with computer interfaces in several different OSes all the time. I still found PCgen's interface to be arcane and counter intuitive. Herolab has been pretty easy to pick up.
The second strike against PCgen was lack of support of Ultimate Magic. The latest data files only have support for APG, so if I want to use something from UM, I have to implement it myself. I am sure UM support will be there eventually, but there does seem to be a significant lag between PCgen and Herolab data files.
One strike against Herolab is that I made a Alchemist(Vivisectionist). It downgraded my bomb damage to 0d6 instead of removing it entirely. fine, I can live with that, but herolab insists that my bombs are still my primary form of attack, and insists on printing them on the front page while the rest of my weapons are on page 2.
Still, you are looking at $130 on Herolab for the basic rules, APG, UM, Bestary 1 + 2, and all the racial and regional splat books. Expect to pay another $20 when the data files for UC are available.
Sidenote: After dealing with all of the headaches of using Army Builder because Games Workshop is anal about protecting their copyright, and is very reluctant to license anything out to other companies(because they might possibly at somepoint in the distant future do it themselves), it is very refreshing to see a publisher who is actively partnering with someone like Lone Wolf instead of putting all sorts of arbitrary restrictions that just make life a pain for the end user.
Might want to do your research on the cost a little more is all. :)
It costs about $106 total for all the books out there right now included in Hero Labs. It will cost an additional $9.99 for Ultimate COmbat when it comes out in August on the 4th. Not $20. If you spread it out over a period of time and not buy it all at once like I did.. the cost is not nearly as bad then all in one lump sum.
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It will cost an additional $9.99 for Ultimate COmbat when it comes out in August on the 4th. Not $20. If you spread it out over a period of time and not buy it all at once like I did.. the cost is not nearly...the cost is not nearly as bad then all in one lump sum.
Here's the thing, Deanoth--say someone doesn't have HeroLab, but wants it for the game they're playing next week. The GM is using all the add-ons, so if he wants everything and quickly, the easiest thing is to buy them all. This hypothetical person would be best set to spend it all at once. And it's over $100, and that's a lot of money for some people.
Further, say someone doesn't have a lot of money. Maybe they only budget themselves $150 a year for any and all gaming supplies (and some folks can't even afford that), because they need to put the rest of the money toward food, rent, transportation, etc. Whether they purchase Hero Lab piecemeal or all at once that year, they've still blown most of their gaming budget on one product.
Yes, these are circumstantial and hypothetical situations---but what I am getting at is that it is very presumptive to assume EVERYONE can afford anything as expensive as the Pathfinder Hero Lab complete package, whether spread out or in lump sum, which your and some other posters' tones implies. At the end of the day, you've still taken over $100 of your petty cash and put it on that one thing. For some, they have the funds and it's worth it to them--YAY! But that amount of money--again, even broken into pieces and payments--is a LOT to some people. And some can't wait for the next paycheck to come because they don't have a next paycheck coming. By all means advertise the merits of the program. Please don't assume someone's economic situation is similar to yours, however.
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Kinda late to the party, but after reading this thread, I tried both PCgen and HeroLab.
Note, I am a programmer, and I work with computer interfaces in several different OSes all the time. I still found PCgen's interface to be arcane and counter intuitive.
That is why I am sad that PCGen is the only surviving character gen. Redblade was awesome. CharTools is even more arcane than PCGen. To the point I think it was designed to be used by a people who have ceased to be or have not yet been.
If I wasn't lazy, I'd have mine done. Though really, the only real problem is getting the rules in XML like I want. I think I need to make it more generic..
I just want to throw Venture Captain into the mix. It's still in beta, so there's certainly things it doesn't do, but for what it is capable of, it's a fast, free, cross-platform tool.
-------
That being said, I use PCGen for my character building, since I have Macs. Once there's a Mac version of HL, I'll give it a shot.
Further, say someone doesn't have a lot of money. Maybe they only budget themselves $150 a year for any and all gaming supplies (and some folks can't even afford that), because they need to put the rest of the money toward food, rent, transportation, etc. Whether they purchase Hero Lab piecemeal or all at once that year, they've still blown most of their gaming budget on one product.
So, your arguement is that is someone spends less than $13 a month on gaming gear can't afford to buy every single dataset for HeroLab? Nevermind that the DM could drop $10 on an additional license and the new guy has everything. Nevermind that players most likely won't need the Bestiaries, nor most of the campaign material, certainly not every single sourcebook. And most certainly ignore the fact that the player in this hypothetical situation doesn't need any of this, since he can make his character on his DM's computer and print out the sheet.
Your entire arguement is essentially "It's not free, so some people can't afford it, and shame on anyone who doesn't think that this automatically makes it the worse choice."
I do not think that Two Wolves fully understood what you were saying. Yes there is every monster from the Bestiary's in Hero Labs, as well as the NPC's too. But with each monster it is simply a matter of adding a template for the monster to advance it. Lets just say you want a Drow with a CR 10... it would look something like this:
No, I got what he was saying. Nothing that I know of has a "Do My Job" button on it. I just pointed out that you can just click on the name of any of the monsters from the two bestiaries and add them to your encounter profile. Same goes for all the pre-made NPCs from the GMG. Yes, adding templates and class levels to monsters and NPCs is as easy as a few clicks of a mouse, but you still have to click more than one button to do it.
And clicking the mouse button a few times is still light years easier than pulling out all of your rulebooks and a paper and pencil and doing it by hand. Which is kinda the reason the program has value.
I do not think that Two Wolves fully understood what you were saying. Yes there is every monster from the Bestiary's in Hero Labs, as well as the NPC's too. But with each monster it is simply a matter of adding a template for the monster to advance it. Lets just say you want a Drow with a CR 10... it would look something like this:
This took me less then 3 minutes to build to eleventh level with no gear and I probably could have gone quicker if I had paid attention to it hehe as I was also watching TV.
Well, I more meant like a warband of multiple levelled drow that would add up to CR 10.
You're a lot better / more experienced with Herolab than I am, because it takes me probably closer to half an hour to build a character like that at this point.
Sidenote: After dealing with all of the headaches of using Army Builder because Games Workshop is anal about protecting their copyright, and is very reluctant to license anything out to other companies(because they might possibly at somepoint in the distant future do it themselves), it is very refreshing to see a publisher who is actively partnering with someone like Lone Wolf instead of putting all sorts of arbitrary restrictions that just make life a pain for the end user.
+1
I have been a warhammer fantasy hobbyist for many years and personally I hate what I see as GW's Ivory Tower mentality. What I find particularly bad is the way they treat Australian customers where they charge us about twice as much for their products and have banned UK and US independent traders from trading with Australian customers. It disheartens me as I feel they are killing the warhammer fantasy tournament scene down here. :(
Paizo seem to have a completely different approach in how they treat their customer base and I have nothing but good things to say about them.
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And for a professional product (one I have to pay for), I don't expect to find bugs - yet I do find them. Disappointing.
You are quite entitled to your opinion, of course, but lines like this just leave me shaking my head. I have never found a single piece of software ship out bug free, EVER. You pay for the books and pdfs from paizo and they have editorial mistakes and mis-wordings, those are the printed version of bugs. Just saying.
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It will cost an additional $9.99 for Ultimate COmbat when it comes out in August on the 4th. Not $20. If you spread it out over a period of time and not buy it all at once like I did.. the cost is not nearly...the cost is not nearly as bad then all in one lump sum.
Here's the thing, Deanoth--say someone doesn't have HeroLab, but wants it for the game they're playing next week. The GM is using all the add-ons, so if he wants everything and quickly, the easiest thing is to buy them all. This hypothetical person would be best set to spend it all at once. And it's over $100, and that's a lot of money for some people.
Further, say someone doesn't have a lot of money. Maybe they only budget themselves $150 a year for any and all gaming supplies (and some folks can't even afford that), because they need to put the rest of the money toward food, rent, transportation, etc. Whether they purchase Hero Lab piecemeal or all at once that year, they've still blown most of their gaming budget on one product.
Yes, these are circumstantial and hypothetical situations---but what I am getting at is that it is very presumptive to assume EVERYONE can afford anything as expensive as the Pathfinder Hero Lab complete package, whether spread out or in lump sum, which your and some other posters' tones implies. At the end of the day, you've still taken over $100 of your petty cash and put it on that one thing. For some, they have the funds and it's worth it to them--YAY! But that amount of money--again, even broken into pieces and payments--is a LOT to some people. And some can't wait for the next paycheck to come because they don't have a next paycheck coming. By all means advertise the merits of the program. Please don't assume someone's economic situation is similar to yours, however.
I have never presumed to think that everyone can afford Hero Labs.. and if you look up thread you will see how I break it down.
Based on your analogy above I will break it down for you better then too. If the player wants to get Hero Labs because his DM is using it then he would need to buy the
Basic software which includes all the Adventure paths player information. The Core Rules book and all information pertaining with in. The Game Mastery Guide and all the NPC's from there, The editor which can be used if you are savy enough to add ANY OTHER BOOK FROM PATHFINDER IN TO THE SOFTWARE! :) So nothing else needs to be spent. But again using your example you have one week so out of the question there. $29.99 (two licenses involved with the basic package too.
Now being the above example the person is a Player and NOT a GM. So he does not need the Bestiary nor any of the books that deal with Orcs, goblins and undead and the Books that pertain to DM's only.
So we include the
Advanced Players Guide $14.99
Ultimate Magic $9.99
Ultimate Combat (not yet released) $9.99
and the player package $19.99
Now the total is $84.96 not the $106.
Now if the player wanted to save a little money he/she could get by without buying one or the other and wait until it is needed if at all. So we do not by the Ultimate combat and or the Ultimate Magic yet because he is not playing a character that is a fighter/caster (pick one and not buy the other so speak here not disclude both)
So now the total is 74.97
Now being you only have a week that is still pretty pricey but lets go further in to this. Say you did not have a week but 2 months to get it because you know the GM has the software but is going to be using it for a new campaign down the line. Now you have a budget of 150 but buy coffee three times a week at the company cafe and go out to eat lunch twice a week. So say you spend 20 bucks total a week doing this. Now if you brown bag it for 2-4 weeks you got the cost of the software right there, bringing a thermos to work with coffee or even a coffee maker to work you save along with the brown bagging it.
There are many many ways to save some extra money short term but everyone seems to think of the large picture and look at the overall price of the software WITH all the packages/add-ons involved but do not look at what you can do to save some money to get it nor look at what is NEEDED vs what you as a player or GM want or need with the software.
Narrowly construe the picture and look at what it can do.. this is a tool to be used not a bunch of books. This is not NEEDED but properly used is a time saver for DM and player alike. Mostly the GM though. If a player wants to play a Summoner, on the best of circumstances the class is difficult to roll up and create properly with out mistakes. Hero Labs can help with this considerably and fast!! It also gives the GM the ability to advance creatures/monsters quickly and on the fly. Casters can import from the Bestiary's the summoned creatures for the spells including the advanced, celestial, fiendish and so on at the touch of a few buttons instead of trying to do this while in game and not use an excellent spell because it is such a pain to use. Unless you do it all before hand. Even then you might make a mistake so while you as a player did it before hand the GM can bring the same creature up in his Hero Labs software to check over what the player did or act as a stop-gap in case the player makes a mistake.
So maybe now you have a better understanding of where I am coming from. Please do not assume I think that everyone can afford this or need this. As I do not nor will I ever, but on the same token do not assume that there are not ways for a player TO afford it should they want it even on a limited budget just by changing some things around too.
Hopefully this helps you better understand what I am thinking.
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I think I'll give the Character Folio by Darktheatre a chance when it comes out, which should be soon. Of course it will start off only for the Ipad, but I foresee other platforms being supported in the future.
http://www.darktheatre.net/llc/
You are quite entitled to your opinion, of course, but lines like this just leave me shaking my head. I have never found a single piece of software ship out bug free, EVER. You pay for the books and pdfs from paizo and they have editorial mistakes and mis-wordings, those are the printed version of bugs. Just saying.And for a professional product (one I have to pay for), I don't expect to find bugs - yet I do find them. Disappointing.
When I find bugs after a casual test drive, that's unacceptable to me.
I have never purchased anything that was perfect. Every product has flaws somewhere. The problem I would have is how the problems are addressed. Hero Lab puts out regular updates with bug fixes and added functionality. They regularly listen to the community and actively seek a list of bugs.
Character creation can get complex. The more rules you add, the more complex it becomes. There are unclear rules. There are contradictory rules. There is errata that comes out and changes what was already written. There are multiple purposes HL tries to meet, like using only select books, PFS, houserules, d20srd material, allowing the user to add, etc.
Hero Lab isn't perfect but the company strives to make it better with every update.
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Bob Loblaw, I do not expect a "perfect" product. I expect a highly polished, finished product with very few mistakes. If I can find bugs after a brief use of the software (trying it on a friend's computer), that's an indication to me of an unfinished product. I am concerned about all of the mistakes that I have not found, not just the one or two that I found.
Can you provide examples of what you mean, and when you tried the software? If the comments are from their first version of Pathfinder, versus their latest, then that's a very different thing.
I work in software development and have for over a decade. Zero defect software is fiction, and I've seen software that had millions in development dollars go out and still have bugs found the first day.
My point is, the argument is a bit specious based on my own experience with pretty much every piece of software I've used in the last three decades. I can't really say this is the case, however, without specific examples of the bugs you found.
One of the devs said somewhere that, as they're a Mac office, they're waiting for the Mac version and at that point will most likely switch to using HeroLab in office. I'll go poke around and see if I can find that post.
I'd love it if Paizo actually used HL - not only would their stat blocks have fewer errors, but they could release electronic versions of all the NPCs with the AP for easier tweaking!
I don't like how expensive Hero Lab gets - but I pay it. I tried PCGen and it wasn't worth the hassle to me - even at "free" it ended up being more efficient for me to just do the characters by hand. With Hero Lab, it actually saves me a lot of time, and you have people doing community stuff like Joey Virtue HL'ing up all the Second Darkness NPCs that allows for reuse.
If Hero Lab had some random generation, it would fit just about all of my use cases.
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When I find bugs after a casual test drive, that's unacceptable to me.
I could counter with "When I find errors with casual perusal of a Paizo book/pdf, thats unacceptable to me." I fail to see how its ok with books, but not ok with software. Also, you never go into detail of what bugs you've found. I've used the software for almost a year now, I can count the bugs i've run into on one hand. And, they are usually very quickly pointed out by the community and fixed by lone wolf.
Bob Loblaw, I do not expect a "perfect" product. I expect a highly polished, finished product with very few mistakes. If I can find bugs after a brief use of the software (trying it on a friend's computer), that's an indication to me of an unfinished product. I am concerned about all of the mistakes that I have not found, not just the one or two that I found.
Most of the bugs I see are easily fixed and minor. The only bug that I have seen that is ongoing is the cost of magic arrows. This is a known bug that, from my understanding, is not an easy fix.
Can you be specific on bugs you've seen? I have seen many of their "bugs" end up being a misunderstanding of the rules or unclear rules.
I'd love it if Paizo actually used HL - not only would their stat blocks have fewer errors, but they could release electronic versions of all the NPCs with the AP for easier tweaking!
One of the devs said somewhere that, as they're a Mac office, they're waiting for the Mac version and at that point will most likely switch to using HeroLab in office. I'll go poke around and see if I can find that post.
Spreadsheets are not actually that hard to use, but yes, using an existing creator would probably be simpler and hopefully produce less user errors.
Well, in keeping with the topic, I say Hero Lab HANDS DOWN.
I've used both PCGen and Hero Lab. In fact, I was using PCGen for years, before even finding out Hero Lab existed.
After downloading the trial and experimenting with it for a couple days, I bought it and the extras within a week.
PCGen simply took too long to come out with the new books and the interface was clunky, at best.
The intuitiveness of Hero Lab, the level of support, and the fact that you can still add anything custom you like is a HUGE bonus.
All of our players use my Hero Lab to ensure accuracy. Even with the few 'bugs' and inaccuracies, we've found it to be much more accurate than using just the books and character sheets, especially for Summoners' eidolons.
:)
This isn't really a contest. The only contest PCGen would win in was PCGen vs RPTools' CharTools. I imagine even the spreadsheets pretending to be real programs are easier to use.
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Which do you guys prefer? I'm currently running my game with the GMgen portion of PCgen (makes initiative a cakewalk), the character generator is very good IMHO as well, and I'm currently trying out herolab, and I was wondering what you folks think of each program...
Holt
Contest, no.
Discussion, yes.
PC Gen, but I've used it for ages.
Tried Herolabs Demo and I wasn't that impressed with the interface.
Prettier but not really any easier to use.
For the $ I'll put up with the PC Gen quirks.
I just wish the LST format was a bit more human readable.
Since several people seem to be interested: the bugs that I found were a miscalculation of a dwarf fighter's jump check, and incorrect base attack bonus on the print-out of a gnome sorcerer.
Yes, I realize that these are minor errors. However the fact that I found a couple of minor errors on a brief trial implies that there are likely to many more minor errors in the software.
Hello Axl.... I am a Test Analyst (software tester) for one of the most powerful and evil financial institutions in the universe* and you would be surprised on what escapes into Production (the real world). Our on-line banking platform is in the top 5 world wide for quality and ease of use. I could take you over the site and point out 20 or so minor errors.
Testing and quality control is Risk vs Cost vs Release date...
Risk is how important the project is and obviously how badly things can go wrong
Cost is, project cost, time to fix, down time, Dev, BA and TA time, Customer Goodwill, Branding, reputation.
Release date is when it has to be up and running by.
Unlike my employer (Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn)I am sure that neither Paizo or Lone wolf can throw a team of 50 sacrifices (umm people)at a Project (although I am sure that both Rob and PMG would love to have that warm bodies available). We have over 1000ish staff dedicated to testing a multitude of projects.
When we test we assign priorities thus ( I am sure that the POST MONSTER GENERAL and LWR has a similar priority list).
If it will kill people, blow up on launch, open a gate to the Dreamlands and allow a great old one through or grind the worlds financial systems to a halt - Fixed first, fixed fast.
If it causes the application to fail, money to vanish or your spawn to be gnawed upon by a Gug - Fix next, fix fast.
If it has buttons that go nowhere, links that take you to the wrong location or does not do what it spec'ed to do - Fix if the top two are fixed and fix fast.
If there annoying errors but it still functions don't fix until the above is sorted.
If Layout and look is wrong/terrible, or error messages and text are wrong - fix if the above is fixed
Spelling mistakes and so on get hit last.
Then we wash rinse repeat testing every time a defect (bug) is fixed.... because if you fix one defect you may have broken something else when you fix it or one defect can mask a multitude of sins.
Before we let our project run free in the wild we move it into a staging environment that mirrors real-world conditions and run a selection of the most import tests to just make sure.
Finally the project is released into Production at 1 in the morning and a team of business users hammer it for a while. If it then goes pear shaped we roll it back and put the original code.
Even after all of that testing and effort, lots of errors and the odd Mi-Go get out and things occasionally fall over (once or twice spectacularly).
Problems found after release are fixed in the Patch if it is urgent, or the next Release if it is minor.
It is a testament to the PMG and LWR (and their staff) that with the limited resources and time that they have the Paizo Website and Hero Lab are both of the excellent quality that they are.
*My opinion not my employers (they think that they are the evilist)
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Since several people seem to be interested: the bugs that I found were a miscalculation of a dwarf fighter's jump check, and incorrect base attack bonus on the print-out of a gnome sorcerer.
Yes, I realize that these are minor errors. However the fact that I found a couple of minor errors on a brief trial implies that there are likely to many more minor errors in the software.
Here is the thing about Hero labs, if you find a bug of some kind it gets reported it gets fixed. You do NOT report it it does not get fixed unless someone else does.
If you noticed something during the trial like that I would tend to believe you but for some reason I do not think you were using a trial version because you mentioned a print out and the trial version does not let you print anything. While I am not denying what you say is true.. I am just curious as to what you mean by print out?
Either way, as others have said the RPG books in general for Pathfinder have plenty of errata and there are always little changes done for updates and things can go wrong. But if you want to have such a tight opinion about a software that does a lot of good as a tool for both the GM and the player a like that is up to you but in my opinion I use it a lot and if there is a little bug like you mentioned I report it immediately and it usually gets fixed fast. I love this fact and appreciate the customer service that Lone Wolf has.
The dwarf fighter's jump check may be right and he's not factoring either the slower movement rate penalty or acp.
The gnome BAB might be right and he's missed the small size modifier.
I'll admit I caught mistakes with HL, but always with off-the-wall, corner cases, and when pointed out on their boards, they either fix them in the next patch or it's a big rewrite problem and it takes a little longer to fix. But still faster to fix I'd wager than to wait for an all volunteer programing group to even enter the latest big splatbook into a free program.
The gnome BAB might be right and he's missed the small size modifier.
Base Attack Bonus is modified neither by size nor race. Unless he means his total to-hit for either melee or range attacks.
But still faster to fix I'd wager than to wait for an all volunteer programing group to even enter the latest big splatbook into a free program.
d20pfsrd.org
It only relies on how difficult the data entry is.
The gnome BAB might be right and he's missed the small size modifier.Base Attack Bonus is modified neither by size nor race. Unless he means his total to-hit for either melee or range attacks.
But still faster to fix I'd wager than to wait for an all volunteer programing group to even enter the latest big splatbook into a free program.d20pfsrd.org
It only relies on how difficult the data entry is.
HL marks that size modifier as a change in BAB on the printout. Just now, I made a level 1 str 10 gnome sorcerer. The printout has "BAB +1" on it, but it is not treating the character as having a BAB of +1 for feats like Quick Draw. It's an output/character sheet issue, but it in no way allows a character to qualify for feats he shouldn't. When I add the "Enlare Person" spell adjustment, the printout now says "BAB +0". The program is not treating the size modifier as a change in BAB, and it still treats it as a size modifier when size is changed. In other words, it's barely a blip on the radar. IIRC, the Lone Wolf guys are aware of it and it doesn't affect anything but asthetics.
d20pfsrd.org is not a program either. Data entry != coding. Are you really trying to compare cut'n'paste html data entry to coding a program?
The gnome BAB might be right and he's missed the small size modifier.Base Attack Bonus is modified neither by size nor race. Unless he means his total to-hit for either melee or range attacks.
But still faster to fix I'd wager than to wait for an all volunteer programing group to even enter the latest big splatbook into a free program.d20pfsrd.org
It only relies on how difficult the data entry is.
HL marks that size modifier as a change in BAB on the printout. Just now, I made a level 1 str 10 gnome sorcerer. The printout has "BAB +1" on it, but it is not treating the character as having a BAB of +1 for feats like Quick Draw. It's an output/character sheet issue, but it in no way allows a character to qualify for feats he shouldn't. When I add the "Enlare Person" spell adjustment, the printout now says "BAB +0". The program is not treating the size modifier as a change in BAB, and it still treats it as a size modifier when size is changed. In other words, it's barely a blip on the radar. IIRC, the Lone Wolf guys are aware of it and it doesn't affect anything but asthetics.
d20pfsrd.org is not a program either. Data entry != coding. Are you really trying to compare cut'n'paste html data entry to coding a program?
I have seem that as an issue before and it is important. Some feats (like combat expertise and power attack) are based on your BAB. Yes, you can just use the tab that let's you turn the feat on/off but that isn't always an option if you don't bring your computer to the game.
I believe that this is something others are working on with the customizable sheets but since my computer is down and I can't use HL at this time, I don't know for sure.
The gnome BAB might be right and he's missed the small size modifier.Base Attack Bonus is modified neither by size nor race. Unless he means his total to-hit for either melee or range attacks.
But still faster to fix I'd wager than to wait for an all volunteer programing group to even enter the latest big splatbook into a free program.d20pfsrd.org
It only relies on how difficult the data entry is.
HL marks that size modifier as a change in BAB on the printout. Just now, I made a level 1 str 10 gnome sorcerer. The printout has "BAB +1" on it, but it is not treating the character as having a BAB of +1 for feats like Quick Draw. It's an output/character sheet issue, but it in no way allows a character to qualify for feats he shouldn't. When I add the "Enlare Person" spell adjustment, the printout now says "BAB +0". The program is not treating the size modifier as a change in BAB, and it still treats it as a size modifier when size is changed. In other words, it's barely a blip on the radar. IIRC, the Lone Wolf guys are aware of it and it doesn't affect anything but asthetics.
d20pfsrd.org is not a program either. Data entry != coding. Are you really trying to compare cut'n'paste html data entry to coding a program?
99% of everything should be encoded already and almost anything new should be data entry.
99% of everything should be encoded already and almost anything new should be data entry.
You mean like words of power?
I have seem that as an issue before and it is important. Some feats (like combat expertise and power attack) are based on your BAB. Yes, you can just use the tab that let's you turn the feat on/off but that isn't always an option if you don't bring your computer to the game.
I believe that this is something others are working on with the customizable sheets but since my computer is down and I can't use HL at this time, I don't know for sure.
But what I am saying is that the "error" only occurs on the printed page. For all other purposes (eligiblity of feats, size modifier stacking, etc) the program is treating the gnome in question as if it had a BAB of +0. This printout does not in any way affect how BAB is used in the program. In terms of bugs or errors, this is about as relevant as not liking the color of the artwork on the box the program came in.