The Dark Side of the Sun!

OMG it's HERE? It's like I stepped out for a bit and suddenly Dark Sun is reborn. Anyone looked inside yet?

I've got a copy! Though I still need to pick up the monster/terrain/ways-Athas-will-kill-you book..

I never played the original Dark Sun, and have only really heard stories, but this one... well, it's brutal. Definitely brutal. They work hard to emphasize the flavor - metal is rare, survival in the desert is a fool's game, nothing is familiar, nothing is safe.

The three things I think are coolest:
-Wild Talents, which let everyone have some small psionic ability;
-Themes, which seem a very nice way to add character concepts that go a bit beyond class;
-Weapons, specifically the awesome one that is basically a cord with grappling hooks that you use to snag your enemies and drag them around behind you. There are weapon feat trees for most of the unique weapons, which all look neat, and pretty clear designed to be made use of in an arena.

I've only really skimmed through thus far, and really need to work through the background and setting details in full. Some of the transitions works, other's don't. I'm fine with Goliaths being used to provide the stats for Half-giants, but wish the art ditched the goliath look, which I've never been a fan of. Some of the art is brilliant, some of it is out of place - nothing Brom, in the end, though a few pieces come close.

From what I understand, the adventure is pretty much crap - a disappointment, since WotC's other recent adventures have been big improvements over the earlier stuff. Marauders of the Dune Sea, though... well, I can't say myself, but it sounded mainly like a random 'find the widget' quest that missed the opportunity to really make use of Dark Sun. A shame, but there's enough ideas in the setting itself that I doubt I'll be struggling for adventures...

For Kruelaid

OMG it's HERE? It's like I stepped out for a bit and suddenly Dark Sun is reborn. Anyone looked inside yet?

I've only skimmed it.I tried to get my distributor to send it to me early by promising not to break the street date but he wouldn't trust me!

I've played the original and so far they've mostly held to the core principles that defined the original. Some revamping to fit in with 4E but a lot of the main themes remain. So no clerics but it speaks to their methods that they then include a side bar saying 'what if you really, really want to play a divine character?'. They come up with three ideas on how there might be a divine character running around. Maybe the blood of a Demigod (now long dead) flows in your veins, You have a piece of a dead God in terms of one of its long lost holy objects and your drawing you power through this shard of the Dead God etc.

The map of the Tyr region some how looks different but I can't put my finger on it - may just be colouring.

Ahh - figured the map out. It covers a region that is smaller then the one I was last using.

For Kruelaid** spoiler omitted **

I would certainly play. For the record I was never a big anti-4E guy. I just think some of wotc move's seemed compelled by crack addiction.

I didn't know Amiri was on the cover

I'm gonna get it eventually, and run a Dark Sun pbp.
It might be a while though. Not sure;
Funds are reaaaaaaaaally jacked up right now, but I have the PHB, DMG, and MM in contemplation of getting the Dark Sun book.

And I'll prolly go down to Borders any chance I get to use it as my browsing library until such a time as my funds aren't jacked up.

I didn't know Amiri was on the cover

Wayne Reynolds Art in both cases and, while he's brilliant, there is always a certain amount similarity to an artists work, especially if they are working in the same genre. That said while I can see some level of similarity its not really that extreme. Amiri's cover slot really screamed 'so sexy' while that is not particularly true of the Darksun cover (WotC in general has much tamer art).

I've been a long-time dark sun fan, and have every single Dark Sun product out there, barring some of the old lead miniatures :)

The Creature Catalog and Campaing Guide are excellent books. Both full of great ideas for a dark sun campaign.

I don't like 4E, I don't play 4E, but I love Dark Sun and purchased both of these books from amazon.ca in a heartbeat!

Kruelaid wrote:

OMG it's HERE? It's like I stepped out for a bit and suddenly Dark Sun is reborn. Anyone looked inside yet?

I've only skimmed it.I tried to get my distributor to send it to me early by promising not to break the street date but he wouldn't trust me!

I've played the original and so far they've mostly held to the core principles that defined the original. Some revamping to fit in with 4E but a lot of the main themes remain. So no clerics

They don't even have the elemental based clerics anymore? Or are they just different due to the different mechanics?

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

I've played the original and so far they've mostly held to the core principles that defined the original. Some revamping to fit in with 4E but a lot of the main themes remain. So no clerics

They don't even have the elemental based clerics anymore? Or are they just different due to the different mechanics?

Since 4E already had a host of classes built around drawing power from nature (the Primal classes), they've had those fill into the same place. I think Elemental Priest is still an option as a specific theme, and there may even be a full build for Shamans built around that concept.

But yeah, Elemental Priests are still around. It's just that, rather than use rules for clerics and just reflavor it as them drawing on the elements, they've already got classes that largely due that, so can leave clerics behind entirely.

Man, I don't play 4E but if *anything* was going to get me to cough up the $$ and convert, it would've been this.

*sigh*, I guess I'll have to continue to settle for an issue each of Dragon/Dungeon, and a lotta fan based material.

Hmm... maybe if someone else runs it....

Man, I don't play 4E but if *anything* was going to get me to cough up the $$ and convert, it would've been this.

You could always use the fluff inside the book...

Just got mine in the mail today. I've only skimed over it but it looks good.

Heathy, can I get in on your game when you start it?

I'm also gonna start a Dark Sun game in about a weeks time.

Just got mine in the mail today. I've only skimed over it but it looks good.

Heathy, can I get in on your game when you start it?

I'm also gonna start a Dark Sun game in about a weeks time.

I'll keep you in mind.

It might be better to hold on Dark Sun games until early September when the Character Builder updates next, just since it's nice being able to use it for PbPs.

Very tempted to DM a Dark Sun game myself on the boards.

Don't mean to edition war, but this would make me super excited if Wizards still made D&D, instead of 4th.

Don't mean to edition war, but this would make me super excited if Wizards still made D&D, instead of 4th.

I'd go off on you but judging by your post count your pretty new around here. Still if the only piece of information you have to offer is you don't like 4E then its pretty off topic on a Darksun Thread and maybe you should do something constructive and positive like find a thread in which you can tell the Paizo crew how much you love Pathfinder or some such.

Don't mean to edition war, but this would make me super excited if Wizards still made D&D, instead of 4th.

I suspect that's precisely what you mean to do. :) And have clearly succeeded at!

Anyway, everyone else - let's not bug down a good thread in this sort of arguing. If you think his comments are out of line, just hit the 'Flag' button in the corner of his post and alert the mods, and hopefully they will take care of this and help get the thread back on topic.

I meant what I said.

Love Dark Sun. Wish it had more than magazine and online support for 3.5. Glad for the rest of you Dark Sun & 4th fans.

I'd be the same if they made a new version of Ravenloft for the Call of Cthulu RPG.

I wish it was for the game that I play (Pathfinder), which to me IS D&D.

Is it 2008 again? Oh no, carry on.

Anyway, everyone else - let's not bug down a good thread in this sort of arguing. If you think his comments are out of line, just hit the 'Flag' button in the corner of his post and alert the mods, and hopefully they will take care of this and help get the thread back on topic.

Probably for the best that people don't get into a fight about this. Although I am a tad disappointed that a very similar post had recently been made, only directed at Paizo instead of WotC and lamenting that 4e wasn't being supported in favor of their own game, and that the posters that are vocal now weren't around to say anything then.

I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive from Amazon. Looking forward to seeing what it has to offer as I've never played or used any kind of Dark Sun before.

As a shameless magpie and pincher of stuff from any and every system I stumble across, can I just put my hand up and say I like them all? I might not want to play them all, but I'll take the nuggets that appeal to me and use them when the opportunity arises. Dark Sun looks like another fun pool to dip into, so I'm going to be a happy camper once Amazon get their act together.

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

Anyway, everyone else - let's not bug down a good thread in this sort of arguing. If you think his comments are out of line, just hit the 'Flag' button in the corner of his post and alert the mods, and hopefully they will take care of this and help get the thread back on topic.

Probably for the best that people don't get into a fight about this. Although I am a tad disappointed that a very similar post had recently been made, only directed at Paizo instead of WotC and lamenting that 4e wasn't being supported in favor of their own game, and that the posters that are vocal now weren't around to say anything then.

Though the question is, did people flag the post? I know I've flagged extreme opinions on both sides of the question, without necessarily commenting on them in the thread. Indeed, I try generally to not respond at all, but only did so here because I saw others starting to do so, and figured I'd direct people towards that flagging function while I had the chance. :) No idea how often it works or not, but probably a better habit than trying to counter one unreasonable statement with another.

Though the question is, did people flag the post?

I can only hope so. It just makes me feel a bit 'bleh' to a post on one end gets attention, while another one is seemingly ignored by most even though their content is similar and only the targets are different.

Probably for the best that people don't get into a fight about this. Although I am a tad disappointed that a very similar post had recently been made, only directed at Paizo instead of WotC and lamenting that 4e wasn't being supported in favor of their own game, and that the posters that are vocal now weren't around to say anything then.

I'm sure the Pathfinder fans can see off anyone who gets it into their heads to insult Pathfinder on their sections of the forum.

Beyond that, while I have no idea what your specifically talking about - in all likely hood I have that section of the forum closed (or if its in the AP section I have them open but don't read most threads so could easily miss it) I'll note that there is a difference between being insulting and simply lamenting.

Back on Topic.

I don't play any 4e, but this might get me into it. Is 4e Dark Sun worth it? And will I need the core set to play the game?

Not a big 4e player, but do enjoy the occasional pbp :)

But I do have a few players that loved playing Dark Sun, and I may have to wind up getting this and gining it a try.

Back on Topic.

I don't play any 4e, but this might get me into it. Is 4e Dark Sun worth it? And will I need the core set to play the game?

This does not include the rules for playing 4E. The new Essentials line includes a Rules Compendium and some kind of Players Guide so that would probably be the best option. Alternatively you could get by with the Players Handbook 1 and the Dungeon Masters Guide. You would also need the Darksun Beastery.

With some effort it could also be converted/mined for another RPG system. This is likely only really worthwhile if you don't already have a significant collection of the 2nd edition material since what is on offer here is, to some significant degree, just the 1996 revised version repacked for 4E. All the writing is 'from scratch' and all but, as the fan base has made quite clear, what we really want is essentially a repackage of the old material, not a new spin (they should have learned that with Greyhawk War's but maybe TSR forgot to give WotC that memo).

On the other hand maybe you'll just like reading this stuff again. Certianly I could have gone into storage and dug out my old Darksun stuff instead of paying $20 bucks for it...and yet I'm a happy camper just reading the material again in different words --- nostalgia is an odd thing and often worth $20.

I'm of the opinion that its really one of the best done 4E books, comparable to DMG1 and DMG2 which are the other two I own that I think are particularly above average. Its a heavy fluff book, more so then most. This influences my opinion as I prefer my books to be fluff heavy.

I'm sure the Pathfinder fans can see off anyone who gets it into their heads to insult Pathfinder on their sections of the forum.

Beyond that, while I have no idea what your specifically talking about - in all likely hood I have that section of the forum closed (or if its in the AP section I have them open but don't read most threads so could easily miss it) I'll note that there is a difference between being insulting and simply lamenting.

I doubt that you had that section of the forum closed because it was here in the 4th edition forums (Even then you could have easily missed it). And while it had lamenting (like the post you responded to), I would say that the content of the posts were no less insulting than what you responded to here. I would say that both suffer from an inappropriate word choice that pushes them toward insulting rather than just "I wish that company made products for the edition I prefer."

In my opinion, if you see both and only admonish one while ignoring the other, it only promotes a harsh division between the two groups where everyone is expected to tolerate or defend posters on their "side" whether or not the content of the posters' arguments is appropriate.

Add to that I particularly don't care for posts that take unnecessarily provoke passionate arguments on the the existence of faults in a game system nor shots at the companies that make them on any section of the forums. Crossing a forum border shouldn't make it anymore "ok" to say, "Wow! [Company] is still supporting that crappy game?" (Which is way beyond either of the comments I am referencing).

I doubt that you had that section of the forum closed because it was here in the 4th edition forums (Even then you could have easily missed it). And while it had lamenting (like the post you responded to), I would say that the content of the posts were no less insulting than what you responded to here. I would say that both suffer from an inappropriate word choice that pushes them toward insulting rather than just "I wish that company made products for the edition I prefer."

In my opinion, if you see both and only admonish one while ignoring the other, it only promotes a harsh division between the two groups where everyone is expected to tolerate or defend posters on their "side" whether or not the content of the posters' arguments is appropriate.

Add to that I particularly don't care for posts that take unnecessarily provoke passionate arguments on the the existence of faults in a game system nor shots at the companies that make them on any section of the forums. Crossing a forum border shouldn't make it anymore "ok" to say, "Wow! [Company] is still supporting that crappy game?" (Which is way beyond either of the comments I am referencing).

If it was in the 4E forums there is a good 90% chance I saw it. Now we are just down to the fact that I don't really agree with you. I mean in a perfect world sure but I feel that as an objective is unrealistic. To many people want to vent or hold up what they like as good or correct compared to the alternate options. Attempting to 'police' the whole board to insure that no one ever says bad things about another edition is a 'cure' far worse then the disease IMO. If that is to be done then maybe the administration will impose such a policy but the fan base should, IMO, not do so.

The very idea that I would troll the whole of the Paizo boards outside of the specific 4E forums for people saying negative things about 4E or WotC strikes me as something that can do nothing but create fights and bad feelings, and I don't feel its would become it strikes me as counter productive even if all I'm doing is flagging every post everywhere in which a poster has made a comment that does not feature 4E or WotC in the best possible light.

Its a reasonable possibility to keep this sort of thing contained to separate parts of the forums and to highly discourage 'drive by' troll posts over these 'borders' and if that is done peace is reasonably maintained. Beyond that I don't think its feasible at least not without a cost that is simply to high.

If it was in the 4E forums there is a good 90% chance I saw it. Now we are just down to the fact that I don't really agree with you. I mean in a perfect world sure but I feel that as an objective is unrealistic and attempting to 'police' the whole board to insure that no one ever says bad things about another edition is a 'cure' far worse then the disease IMO. If that is to be done then maybe the administration will impose such a policy but the fan base should, IMO, not do so.

The very idea that I would troll the whole of the Paizo boards outside of the specific 4E forums for people saying negative things about 4E or WotC strikes me as something that can do nothing but create fights and bad feelings, and I don't feel its would become it strikes me as counter productive even if all I'm doing is flagging every post everywhere...

I'm not suggesting one run across the forums finding people saying bad things and otherwise putting things right that once went wrong. All I am saying is that such posts should, in a perfect world, be treated the same no matter what company/edition they are targeting in any section of the forums. One shouldn't give special treatment to one side of the posts just because they aren't bashing one's preferred game.

This however comes down to more that you probably disagree that the other post was that similar to the post here. Despite my jumping into a rant* about my perceptions on how groups give a lot more leeway to posts on their "side," I still really want to avoid dragging up that specific post to try to convince anyone of the similarities that I (and maybe only I) see in it.

*I am pretty sure I made this rant before here. Although, given that it hasn't been implied that I am either pitiable, a liar, or a secretly a WotC shill, this has gone relatively well.

It might be better to hold on Dark Sun games until early September when the Character Builder updates next, just since it's nice being able to use it for PbPs.

What is a character builder? Is that something online that I have to pay for?

Amelia wrote:

It might be better to hold on Dark Sun games until early September when the Character Builder updates next, just since it's nice being able to use it for PbPs.

What is a character builder? Is that something online that I have to pay for?

Yes.

Amelia is jumping to the conclusion that you have and use it. She's following a reasonable heuristic because its use is pretty much universal among 4E players. One does not ask if a persona has the character builder before answering their questions or, in her case, offering advice, instead you assume they use the character builder and answer in light of that - saves a step that has become redundant.

Amelia wrote:

It might be better to hold on Dark Sun games until early September when the Character Builder updates next, just since it's nice being able to use it for PbPs.

What is a character builder? Is that something online that I have to pay for?

To give a bit more detail - it is a program that is part of DDI, WotC's digital package that includes a character builder, monster builder, online compendium and access to the Dragon and Dungeon magazines.

It isn't required to play the game, by any means! But many find the character builder an excellent resource - it contains all the character content from every WotC publication, with the only limitation that info from new books aren't entered into it until a few weeks after release. Thus the recommendation, in this case, that if one planned a Dark Sun game and wanted to use the Character Builder, one might wish to wait until early September.

There is a demo available for creating characters from levels 1-3, but I think it is also only current up to the PHB2, so wouldn't help with Dark Sun.