Pathfinder Adventure Path: Quest for the Frozen Flame Player's Guide PDF

This sounds a lot cooler than I expected! I really like the class advice section, and the Ex-Crusader background is a real treat! Glad to see some pretty concrete ancestry advice for once - though I’m not sure why it only mentions half-orcs, and not orcs? I thought it might have to be a CRB thing, but then leshies got a shoutout…

SISTER CINDER

This sounds a lot cooler than I expected! I really like the class advice section, and the Ex-Crusader background is a real treat! Glad to see some pretty concrete ancestry advice for once - though I’m not sure why it only mentions half-orcs, and not orcs? I thought it might have to be a CRB thing, but then leshies got a shoutout…

I guess idea was that there isn't big orc presence in Land of Mammoth Lords outside of interaction with Belkzen?

(I'm honestly skeptical of that, but Land of Mammoth Lords never got a setting book to expand that area so x'D Do think if we got one it'd be weird if there weren't any orc presence)

Leshies are more marketable

The four houses in a tribe of 76 souls seems a little extreme, but I'm guessing there's gonna' be a diplomacy skill challenge at some point, where you have to win over the four leaders and a system for tracking your popularity with each house. I'll probably drop that entirely and focus on the Broken Tusk as one, big unified tribe, but will see if the AP as written supports that change.

Excited for Quest for the Frozen Flame, but not quite as excited as I am for Outlaws of Alkenstar! :D

SISTER CINDER

My favorite part!! I LOVE alternate names and understandings of familiar gods; one of my favorite things is an old Greek history of Egypt that says they “knew the gods before we did,” and that implication of their gods being shared, but seen differently.

Glad to see it with Kazutal/Majagua first, and now here, too.

keftiu wrote:

This sounds a lot cooler than I expected! I really like the class advice section, and the Ex-Crusader background is a real treat! Glad to see some pretty concrete ancestry advice for once - though I’m not sure why it only mentions half-orcs, and not orcs? I thought it might have to be a CRB thing, but then leshies got a shoutout…

I guess idea was that there isn't big orc presence in Land of Mammoth Lords outside of interaction with Belkzen?

(I'm honestly skeptical of that, but Land of Mammoth Lords never got a setting book to expand that area so x'D Do think if we got one it'd be weird if there weren't any orc presence)

If I ran this, I would definitely welcome Belkzen orcs, Mitzenki (arctic) catfolk, and Sarkorian tieflings on top of what’s listed - and I would quietly encourage one wayward Numerian android.

Really interesting. The only qualm I have is about the justification for the ban on Evil alignment. I am pretty sure, human beings being what they are, even hunter-gatherers had evil people. It really looks like the AP itself forbids evil characters. Not the social structure of a Mammoth Lords following on its own.

It might have been better to just say so.

I like the use of Following BTW rather than Tribe or Clan, which can be loaded words. I wonder how it will be translated in French.

The four houses in a tribe of 76 souls seems a little extreme

House members ... occupying the same communal sleeping tent.

That reads to me as a literal use of the word "house", as in the tribe has four yurts large enough for living in, and the rest is just a natural side effect of that sort of communal living.

really good guide. i'm pretty psyched for this AP.

I hope this Frozen Flame isn't a fragment of some sort of alien entity bent on the complete destruction of all life.

Really interesting. The only qualm I have is about the justification for the ban on Evil alignment. I am pretty sure, human beings being what they are, even hunter-gatherers had evil people. It really looks like the AP itself forbids evil characters. Not the social structure of a Mammoth Lords following on its own.

It might have been better to just say so.

They don't outright ban evil alignment just they won't fit in well. It all so shows Paizo did their research on hunter-gather societies. In general, they tend to fight less, due to less inequality, less resource unpredictability, and teaching to share begins as early as 6 weeks to 6 months old.

Might be interesting to play an evil character that joined the Following from the outside, who overtimes learns to fit in and changes alignments in the end.

I hope this Frozen Flame isn't a fragment of some sort of alien entity bent on the complete destruction of all life.

I do hope more people got the Chrono Cross reference xD

The Raven Black wrote:

Really interesting. The only qualm I have is about the justification for the ban on Evil alignment. I am pretty sure, human beings being what they are, even hunter-gatherers had evil people. It really looks like the AP itself forbids evil characters. Not the social structure of a Mammoth Lords following on its own.

It might have been better to just say so.

They don't outright ban evil alignment just they won't fit in well. It all so shows Paizo did their research on hunter-gather societies. In general, they tend to fight less, due to less inequality, less resource unpredictability, and teaching to share begins as early as 6 weeks to 6 months old.

Might be interesting to play an evil character that joined the Following from the outside, who overtimes learns to fit in and changes alignments in the end.

Hunter-gather societies are all about protecting the innocents (including strangers) ? Somehow I doubt that.

Protecting members of your following and sharing with them is quite compatible with Evil. Far less with Chaotic TBT.

"Other than evil, characters of any alignment fit equally well in the Broken Tusk following." does dound like a pretty strong ban to me.

Ashbourne wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Really interesting. The only qualm I have is about the justification for the ban on Evil alignment. I am pretty sure, human beings being what they are, even hunter-gatherers had evil people. It really looks like the AP itself forbids evil characters. Not the social structure of a Mammoth Lords following on its own.

It might have been better to just say so.

They don't outright ban evil alignment just they won't fit in well. It all so shows Paizo did their research on hunter-gather societies. In general, they tend to fight less, due to less inequality, less resource unpredictability, and teaching to share begins as early as 6 weeks to 6 months old.

Might be interesting to play an evil character that joined the Following from the outside, who overtimes learns to fit in and changes alignments in the end.

Hunter-gather societies are all about protecting the innocents (including strangers) ? Somehow I doubt that.

Protecting members of your following and sharing with them is quite compatible with Evil. Far less with Chaotic TBT.

"Other than evil, characters of any alignment fit equally well in the Broken Tusk following." does dound like a pretty strong ban to me.

This is a good summary of what hunter-gathers are like

I don't have a link to it was something I read years ago but there was another group of people studying cultures, they when around to major cities like New York, and in the middle of rush hour would go play dead on a sidewalk, in the big cities, people just walk around or over them but never stopped. Then they flew to some of the most remote small villages around the world and did the same. Entire villages stopped whatever they were doing to see if they were ok.

Thank you for the link. It is extremely interesting.

There's also plenty of archaeological evidence for prehistoric hunter-gatherers taking care of their disabled kin; you can do some digging to find excavated graves (often buried with care and grave-goods!) of people who had lived long lives after debilitating injuries - those who couldn't "contribute" in the most traditional sense were still cared for and supported.

Related to that, and somewhat of a fable of why they would take care of their disabled and elderly is the book Two Old Women: An Alaskan Legend Of Betrayal, Courage, And Survival

Two Old Women.

I still believe that all of this is far more Lawful than Good ;-)

I don't have a link to it was something I read years ago but there was another group of people studying cultures, they when around to major cities like New York, and in the middle of rush hour would go play dead on a sidewalk, in the big cities, people just walk around or over them but never stopped. Then they flew to some of the most remote small villages around the world and did the same. Entire villages stopped whatever they were doing to see if they were ok.

On that last point, I think we should not confuse altruism and self-interest.

It is all about incentive.

In a small village, someone doing something unusual can be the symptom of a problem (say a disease or a poisoning) that can affect the whole village. So, it is plenty rational and efficient to go and check.

Whereas, in a big city, there are systems in place with people whose job and expertise is taking care of such problems. There, it is plenty rational and efficient to let those who have such duties take care of such a situation, while the bystanders follow on with their own life and duites.

I do not believe human beings are any better or worse in any place of the world or in any culture. I believe that we are all the same everywhere. And that we have not changed since prehistory, at least as far as how we think is concerned.

There's also plenty of archaeological evidence for prehistoric hunter-gatherers taking care of their disabled kin; you can do some digging to find excavated graves (often buried with care and grave-goods!) of people who had lived long lives after debilitating injuries - those who couldn't "contribute" in the most traditional sense were still cared for and supported.

It's definitely good for people to realize that because people otherwise tend to assume "nah people have always let disabled people die in the old times" and such <_< Its bit annoying how people just assume that sort of things being universal

I totally agree that how we think hasn't changed in the last 200k years and doesn't change based on where you are from. The only thing that's really changed is our acclimated knowledge over time.

The whole alignment issue got me thinking, would the Broken Tusk concept of evil even be? Or what is their idea of lawful, that would greatly vary from culture to culture depending on your legal system or lack of one. On the questin of evil I found this artical: The Origins of Evil.

Which got me thinking what would the alignment system in TTRPG games look like if it was written by an anthropologist? I don't have the answer to that question...

Remember that alignment in the Golarion setting is absolute : Good is Good and Lawful is Lawful everywhere.

The whole alignment issue got me thinking, would the Broken Tusk concept of evil even be? Or what is their idea of lawful, that would greatly vary from culture to culture depending on your legal system or lack of one.

On that last point, I have an easy answer coming from my time spent living in Japan, which is to me a great example of Lawful RL society.

Of first and foremost importance to a Lawful person is tradition. That of their culture and society, of the group to which they belong. It is the absolute and ultimate reference.

Law comes second. And Lawful people will always try to respect the letter of law, even if they have to disregard its spirit so that they can obey tradition.

Because blatantly disobeying any law weakens all laws, all systems, all authorities and traditions. Which is anathema to the Lawful mindset and to be avoided if at all possible.

great point about Lawful and tradition not just laws

So, the Broken Tusk following was once part of a larger following, but in the face of a great evil, some made a heroic sacrifice to stop it, and were promptly abandoned by the bulk of the following, with only a small number, recovering from their sacrifice, to make a new following they named "Broken Tusk". This Following preaches the ideals of "Compassion, Bravery, and Fortitude", and recruits new members with compatible ideals to that. All this is in the player's guide, if scattered about.

What that says to me, is that there are all to likely evil followings out in the tundra, and possibly even the Following the Broken Tusk split from is one of them (and I suspect will turn out to be antagonists somewhere in the AP!)

So, culturally, evil hunter-gathers possible and likely. Broken Tusk Following historically good guys and recruiting same, but if the recruiter fails their 'sense motive' check, then...

Also people can be born in a society with Good values and still be Evil themselves.