Never really understood calculating CR: Want to tell me what this CR is?

I'm sure it's super simple and I'm just stupid, but the CR system just kinda confuses me... especially as all the XP talk means nothing to me as I've never played in a game that used it. With that in mind, could someone possibly tell me what the encounter CR would be for this?

-6 level 6 Fighters with PC WBL
-1 level 8 Paladin with PC WBL
-1 level 8 Cleric with PC WBL
-1 level 12 Oracle with PC WBL

They don't really have PC WBL, but we're using an innate bonus system so for all intents and purposes they have the stat boosts like they do; I'm mostly curious to see the total so I can tell my 5 level 9 gestalt PCs with their small undead horde what the "official" challenge rating was... I figured it would make them feel good about themselves for winning or make them curse me if they lose. Or maybe it's technically "just right." I'm happy either way.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering

6 by 6 fighters = 11
8 pal = 8
8 cleric = 8
12 oracle = 12

11 = 12'800 exp
8 = 4'800
8 = 4'800
12 = 19'200

121'600 exp in total...
CR 17-1/2...?
PC loot makes it significantly higher though.

(I'm not used to using PC classes as enemies, upon further looking level doesn't have much to do with CR)

I've decided to find equivalent pre-made NPCs
(these all are NPC loot and not generic)
lvl 6 fighter found at CR 5
so 6 by 6 = 10 = 9'600 exp
paladin 8 found at CR 7
so 7 = 3'200
cleric 8 found at CR 7
so 7 = 3'200
no oracle found at lvl 12 but assuming 11
so 11 = 12'800
6400 + 9600 = 16'000 + 12'800 = 28'800

which is CR 13
once again these are very weird NPCs with NPCs loot.

Depending on circumstances i would say around 14, the figthers alone is 10 ( 5+5=7, 7+7+7=10)and the cleric and paladin is 9 (7+7=9) the oracle is 11 and togeather(10+9=11,5 and 11,5+11=13,5)up a bit for PC level wealth so 14
Edit: to fix mistake.

Thanks for that! CR 14-17ish sounds hardcore but I'm not so convinced myself... perhaps I'll have them roll a wisdom check for a reminder to consider doing some preparation shopping/research about the enemies first.

That's the thing with CR; it always sounds cool to know what you're fighting, but it still varies so much on what each party can actually take on.

This will be a hard core encounter if the oracle is not delt with fast.
Assuming no buff time for either side( unlikely i think) the cleric can start out with blessing of flavor to boost everybody but him self. And all figthers can close in on the weakness party member. If the oracle have good high level spells he can win alone if he get to cast a few times.
Edit: a good epic encounter IMOP. Depending on the level of Evil in the group the paladin can be good or terrifying at Taking on the lede party melee dude for a few rounds.

yeah, I'd agree, this is going to be a difficult time for them, but killing the oracle will dramatically lower the CR.

The way I'm picturing the fight going involves the PCs initiating, so they would have more prep time; depending on when they attack the enemies may or may not still have some buffs on them or be caught unawares. For once I think Hide Undead is going to be the spell that makes the difference as the party necromancer has 4 strong archers, a hill giant, a hydra, and another misc large magical beast, all bloody skeletons; those archers rip even the strongest enemies apart.

yeah, I'd agree, this is going to be a difficult time for them, but killing the oracle will dramatically lower the CR.

Yes the oracle is half the fun. But the rest is nessesary to let him shine. I have no Real experiance with gestalt but i imagine it is like everybody is 1,5( possibly a lot more if optimized) a normal character or so the party will be APL 10 ish. If the oracle is of bones and cast circle of death every round it is gonna bea short battle. But a life oracle with that move action Channel and selektive channeling can make it a loong one. Remember to get back and tell us how it goes:)

actually now that i think about it i think the 1 CR lower than level thing came from npcs have npc loot. so I think my CR 17-1/2 MIGHT just be if those are all as powerful as PCs of their level.

Adding PC loot makes it one CR higher than normal for the creature, and it is a bad idea unless the party is starved for loot because they may have too much gear.

Adding PC loot makes it one CR higher than normal for the creature, and it is a bad idea unless the party is starved for loot because they may have too much gear.

soooooooo...... they're going to die.

Remember to get back and tell us how it goes:)

But of course; I'm going to try to avoid spamming win spells with him (Time Mystery btw), but I can't help but feel that a well placed Wall of Stone to try to entrap the archers for when he inevitably wins initiative with his +13, roll three times and take the best, will be his first move. And then perhaps a Quickened Hide from Undead if he doesn't have it up. And then Anti-Life Shell if he doesn't have meat shields... meanwhile the Evangelist Cleric with her Glory Domain will be a continuing source of both inspiration and heroism (as per the spell; yay having that as an aura!) for the fighters, who have both melee and archer capabilities themselves.

Adding PC loot makes it one CR higher than normal for the creature, and it is a bad idea unless the party is starved for loot because they may have too much gear.

I'm using a houseruled system where PCs get the essential items as innate bonuses they can buy with points; I'm using the same system with certain NPCs, so they only really have "simulated" WBL along with a few useful trinkets.

I should throw in my last encounter to see what the actual CR was/is...

2 Master of Undeath (lvl 15 Cleric) CR 14
2 Infernal Champion (lvl 20 Fighters) CR 19
1 Fire Diabolist (lvl 20 Cleric) CR 19

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s#TOC-NPCs-CR-11-

The humorous thing was that the 2 level 15 Clerics were harder than the rest to catch and kill (we interrupted the ceremony... and well... the Infernal Champions can't find their way out of paper box as it turns out - +3 Perception... couldn't even locate invisible peoples' squares).

204,800 x3 + 38,400 x2 = 691,200 xp

So that is CR 22, right?

I should throw in my last encounter to see what the actual CR was/is...

2 Master of Undeath (lvl 15 Cleric) CR 14
2 Infernal Champion (lvl 20 Fighters) CR 19
1 Fire Diabolist (lvl 20 Cleric) CR 19

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s#TOC-NPCs-CR-11-

The humorous thing was that the 2 level 15 Clerics were harder than the rest to catch and kill (we interrupted the ceremony... and well... the Infernal Champions can't find their way out of paper box as it turns out - +3 Perception... couldn't even locate invisible peoples' squares).

204,800 x3 + 38,400 x2 = 691,200 xp

So that is CR 22, right?

TECHNICALLY, your supposed to use a CR to get exp and then fill it up til you cant fit in any more exp, so it's either CR 22-1/2 or 23, but yeah the exp calculation is all correct.

like your supposed to pick a CR FIRST, and then fill it in with enemies.

I should throw in my last encounter to see what the actual CR was/is...

2 Master of Undeath (lvl 15 Cleric) CR 14
2 Infernal Champion (lvl 20 Fighters) CR 19
1 Fire Diabolist (lvl 20 Cleric) CR 19

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s#TOC-NPCs-CR-11-

The humorous thing was that the 2 level 15 Clerics were harder than the rest to catch and kill (we interrupted the ceremony... and well... the Infernal Champions can't find their way out of paper box as it turns out - +3 Perception... couldn't even locate invisible peoples' squares).

204,800 x3 + 38,400 x2 = 691,200 xp

So that is CR 22, right?

The perception thing and stuff like it is why i dont really like to use per made baddies:)

maouse wrote:

I should throw in my last encounter to see what the actual CR was/is...

2 Master of Undeath (lvl 15 Cleric) CR 14
2 Infernal Champion (lvl 20 Fighters) CR 19
1 Fire Diabolist (lvl 20 Cleric) CR 19

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s#TOC-NPCs-CR-11-

The humorous thing was that the 2 level 15 Clerics were harder than the rest to catch and kill (we interrupted the ceremony... and well... the Infernal Champions can't find their way out of paper box as it turns out - +3 Perception... couldn't even locate invisible peoples' squares).

204,800 x3 + 38,400 x2 = 691,200 xp

So that is CR 22, right?

TECHNICALLY, your supposed to use a CR to get exp and then fill it up til you cant fit in any more exp, so it's either CR 22-1/2 or 23, but yeah the exp calculation is all correct.

like your supposed to pick a CR FIRST, and then fill it in with enemies.

And you are suppose to remember that the CR system is just general guidelines. And taking for hard rules can lead to all sorts of nonsense.

Bandw2 wrote:

maouse wrote:

I should throw in my last encounter to see what the actual CR was/is...

2 Master of Undeath (lvl 15 Cleric) CR 14
2 Infernal Champion (lvl 20 Fighters) CR 19
1 Fire Diabolist (lvl 20 Cleric) CR 19

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s#TOC-NPCs-CR-11-

The humorous thing was that the 2 level 15 Clerics were harder than the rest to catch and kill (we interrupted the ceremony... and well... the Infernal Champions can't find their way out of paper box as it turns out - +3 Perception... couldn't even locate invisible peoples' squares).

204,800 x3 + 38,400 x2 = 691,200 xp

So that is CR 22, right?

TECHNICALLY, your supposed to use a CR to get exp and then fill it up til you cant fit in any more exp, so it's either CR 22-1/2 or 23, but yeah the exp calculation is all correct.

like your supposed to pick a CR FIRST, and then fill it in with enemies.

And you are suppose to remember that the CR system is just general guidelines. And taking for hard rules can lead to all sorts of nonsense.

it works though, the thing you have to remember, is you want to keep the main enemies numbers about equal to the PCs, too many enemies and they get swarmed and flanked and get a ton more actions/attacks coming in, too few enemies and the CR remain consistent for much longer than normal for an encounter.

edit: I'm not really disagreeing with you btw.

wraithstrike wrote:

Adding PC loot makes it one CR higher than normal for the creature, and it is a bad idea unless the party is starved for loot because they may have too much gear.

I'm using a houseruled system where PCs get the essential items as innate bonuses they can buy with points; I'm using the same system with certain NPCs, so they only really have "simulated" WBL along with a few useful trinkets.

ok, but their CR will still be higher..

however it does mean you dont have to worry about too much gear.. not a bad idea. I tried to create a system like that, but I stopped working on it.

We are (were) 3 level 16 rogue/shadowdancer mixes. We have about 45-50 stealth (depending on invisibility mods it can get to about 65-90). We attacked under "improved invisibility." The main baddy went down before he could finish his summoning spell (we got initiative on him, but not the fighters). The fighters basically were swinging at air while we sliced and pin-cushioned the summoning priest. Dead. Ok, moving on to the other two priests (we really don't like spellcasters, go figure... lol). They cast Firestorm and then Ethereal Jaunt. We, naturally, made our dex saves and ducked the fire falling from the ceiling. And well, while we had two ghost-touch weapons, getting them was rough because we had to deal with the fighters first and so the priests had a head start at leaving the area... It was a fun slaughter of diabolists in Cheliax, but we almost got caught. Then, of course, we made it look like mages did it... Delayed Blast Fireballs x 6...

In any event, as it turns out, it basically means it was a Mythic takedown, so it counted for our second Mythic challenge to get to tier 3 (we only just started mythic questing after ascendency in the Everdawn Pool). Mind Blank mantles were a great idea, as it turns out...

chaoseffect wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Adding PC loot makes it one CR higher than normal for the creature, and it is a bad idea unless the party is starved for loot because they may have too much gear.

I'm using a houseruled system where PCs get the essential items as innate bonuses they can buy with points; I'm using the same system with certain NPCs, so they only really have "simulated" WBL along with a few useful trinkets.

ok, but their CR will still be higher..

however it does mean you dont have to worry about too much gear.. not a bad idea. I tried to create a system like that, but I stopped working on it.

aren't giving people templates generally how you'd go about this?

chaoseffect wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Adding PC loot makes it one CR higher than normal for the creature, and it is a bad idea unless the party is starved for loot because they may have too much gear.

I'm using a houseruled system where PCs get the essential items as innate bonuses they can buy with points; I'm using the same system with certain NPCs, so they only really have "simulated" WBL along with a few useful trinkets.

ok, but their CR will still be higher..

however it does mean you dont have to worry about too much gear.. not a bad idea. I tried to create a system like that, but I stopped working on it.

In care you're interested I'm using this system with a couple of modifications concerning using points on minions and making natural attacks a separate category for weapons. I like it a lot actually.

wraithstrike wrote:

chaoseffect wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Adding PC loot makes it one CR higher than normal for the creature, and it is a bad idea unless the party is starved for loot because they may have too much gear.

I'm using a houseruled system where PCs get the essential items as innate bonuses they can buy with points; I'm using the same system with certain NPCs, so they only really have "simulated" WBL along with a few useful trinkets.

ok, but their CR will still be higher..

however it does mean you dont have to worry about too much gear.. not a bad idea. I tried to create a system like that, but I stopped working on it.

aren't giving people templates generally how you'd go about this?

No. That is entirely different than replacing the stat booster items.

wraithstrike wrote:

chaoseffect wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Adding PC loot makes it one CR higher than normal for the creature, and it is a bad idea unless the party is starved for loot because they may have too much gear.

I'm using a houseruled system where PCs get the essential items as innate bonuses they can buy with points; I'm using the same system with certain NPCs, so they only really have "simulated" WBL along with a few useful trinkets.

ok, but their CR will still be higher..

however it does mean you dont have to worry about too much gear.. not a bad idea. I tried to create a system like that, but I stopped working on it.

In care you're interested I'm using this system with a couple of modifications concerning using points on minions and making natural attacks a separate category for weapons. I like it a lot actually.

Thanks