Revised Magus

Alkarius wrote:

Riddlyn wrote:

People keep complaining about reactive strike, in all honesty how many melee players have eaten a RS while spellstriking? In 3 years across 3 separate campaigns and I've only ever had it happen once.

Considering RS is uncommon AND you need to be crit to lose the SS, I never got why it's so complained about.

The complaint isn't that the Magus loses the spell. The complaint is generally that they are taking damage as part of using their core damage boosting mechanic.

If a Fighter or Barbarian (or Ranger, Rogue, Swashbuckler, Thaumaturge, ...) walks up to an enemy with RS and hits them for big damage, the enemy doesn't have RS trigger and doesn't get to retaliate immediately. They have to wait until their own turn and spend an action in order to swing back.

If a Magus walks up to an enemy with RS and spellstrikes for big damage, the enemy does have RS trigger and gets to spend a reaction to attack immediately with another zero-MAP Strike.

It isn't a huge problem, but it does come across as unfair that Magus damage boosting mechanic triggers RS when the other class's don't.

Ahh, a perspective difference then. Arcane cascade is the Magus damage booster mechanic. Spellstrike isn't a damage booster, it's actually action compression. The Magus depending on your subclass has action compression second only to the monk. Every magus gets AC in spellstrike and sparkling targe gets 3 of them.

Ahh, a perspective difference then. Arcane cascade is the Magus damage booster mechanic. Spellstrike isn't a damage booster, it's actually action compression. The Magus depending on your subclass has action compression second only to the monk. Every magus gets AC in spellstrike and sparkling targe gets 3 of them.

For damage boosting, Thaumaturge Exploit Vulnerability does better than Arcane Cascade. A lot better. Arcane Cascade is at about the level of Swashbuckler gaining and keeping Panache for just the minor damage boost instead of ever spending it on a finisher.

Spellstrike with Cantrips is what brings Magus up to the level of damage typical for a martial. Because the class needs three different attributes for their combat - INT for standard spellcasting, DEX for Armor Class, and STR for bonus damage.

You can use either STR for accuracy or DEX if you want to limit yourself to finesse damage level weapons.

So action compression is only part of the story. If you are standard casting your spells, your accuracy is going to lag behind that of other spellcasters. And if you aren't using spellstrike regularly, then your weapon damage is going to lag behind other martials.

Do you really need Int? If you're not asking for saving throws, you don't, really.

Although the remaster reduced the number of spell attack spells a bit. That's actually something that needs attention. Either the magus needs to rely less on those, or we need more spell attack spells.

I thought it was rather a nice little trick that the magus doesn't really rely on caster DCs. If you can just hit you can make the spell stick. You can use cantrips from a multiclass or ancestry just fine.

I used to use Adopted Cantrip to get Divine Lance (good) before the remaster, Arcane Cascade and then Flurry of Blows to try to get a lot of hits in. (I had items and dedications giving me 14 different cantrips. For sure I had the thing the enemy was weak to.)

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I think magus is interesting because many of its problems can be fixed by publishing a few new spells.

- Reactive Strike got you down, because it's uncommon, but not uncommon among bosses? Write a cantrip without manipulate. That'll be your boss-cantrip then.

- Running low on spell attack spells? Write more spells.

- Action problems getting Arcane Cascade up and running? Write a one-action cantrip to do something clever at the start of combat. Maybe a mobility effect?

Between DM's forgetting and only around 25ish percent(?) of creatures having RS natively.

Think more like 10 - 15%. It's more rare than people think, however since some iconic monsters have it, which pop up quite often in AP's, it seems overrepresented.

Riddlyn wrote:

Ahh, a perspective difference then. Arcane cascade is the Magus damage booster mechanic. Spellstrike isn't a damage booster, it's actually action compression. The Magus depending on your subclass has action compression second only to the monk. Every magus gets AC in spellstrike and sparkling targe gets 3 of them.

For damage boosting, Thaumaturge Exploit Vulnerability does better than Arcane Cascade. A lot better. Arcane Cascade is at about the level of Swashbuckler gaining and keeping Panache for just the minor damage boost instead of ever spending it on a finisher.

Spellstrike with Cantrips is what brings Magus up to the level of damage typical for a martial. Because the class needs three different attributes for their combat - INT for standard spellcasting, DEX for Armor Class, and STR for bonus damage.

You can use either STR for accuracy or DEX if you want to limit yourself to finesse damage level weapons.

So action compression is only part of the story. If you are standard casting your spells, your accuracy is going to lag behind that of other spellcasters. And if you aren't using spellstrike regularly, then your weapon damage is going to lag behind other martials.

Oh I get it, the damage booster isn't much but is the actual damage booster. So trying to compare spellstrike to Rage or exploit vulnerability is wrong. Yes spellstrike is greater but spellstrike isn't a damage booster. Spellstrike is closer to sneak attack where it's the bull of your damage. And pre-remaster it was not that hard to have a +6-9 to damage before rolling a single die. A lot of people only theorize what magus can do vs. how they actually perform. No AC doesn't get as high as exploit or rage. But spellstrike can do more damage on avg on one hit than either. AC is a small boost for when you want to take advantage of a weakness or do a little extra damage when you aren't spellstriking.

And thank you Magnusk, I was aiming a little high, but you're right. The reality vs the idea of RS is backwards in most people's heads. Though I will agree AP's and boss level monster's tend to made a bit differently

I care that arcane cascade is combersome to get into because it turns your subclass features on. Inexorable iron temp HP, laughing shadow extra damage etc. Other classes don't have as many hoops to jump through in order to benefit from their subclass

People keep complaining about reactive strike, in all honesty how many melee players have eaten a RS while spellstriking? In 3 years across 3 separate campaigns and I've only ever had it happen once.

It's more common if you are in a campaign with primarily humanoid enemies. The magus in my group got whacked twice by a Fighter-esque boss a couple weeks ago.

And besides, if it's so rare that it can't be considered a balance point for the Magus why should it be there at all? They removed magic immunity monsters in the remaster because it was a pointless frustration to just get turned off by specific enemies.

Do you really need Int? If you're not asking for saving throws, you don't, really.

I thought it was rather a nice little trick that the magus doesn't really rely on caster DCs. If you can just hit you can make the spell stick. You can use cantrips from a multiclass or ancestry just fine.

Well, you need one or the other - either INT to direct cast your damage at your enemies, or to Spellstrike them as often as possible. Otherwise why are you playing a Magus? Without one or the other, you would be doing better with a Fighter and a spellcasting archetype for the buff spells you want to use.

I care that arcane cascade is combersome to get into because it turns your subclass features on. Inexorable iron temp HP, laughing shadow extra damage etc. Other classes don't have as many hoops to jump through in order to benefit from their subclass

Are you sure, there are more classes that have to do something to turn on part of their kit than you care to admit. Inventor, investigator, swashbuckler, summoner, kineticists, magus, monk, barbarian, thaumaturge, ranger, and Oracle. All of them require at least an action if not more to turn on a part of their kit. Overdrive, PL, Panache, summon eidolon, Gate, AC, stance, rage, exploit, hunt prey, and curse. Magus is not an outlier.

I care that arcane cascade is combersome to get into because it turns your subclass features on. Inexorable iron temp HP, laughing shadow extra damage etc. Other classes don't have as many hoops to jump through in order to benefit from their subclass

Or as low return on investment. 1 to 3 points of damage. Seriously?!

Swashbuckler does more extra damage than that when not using finishers.

Thaumaturge can do more extra damage than that when the enemy doesn't have a weakness to exploit. And doesn't have to jump through a bunch of extra hoops to try and gather spells with damage types to hope to have the right one on hand if the enemy does happen to have a weakness.

No, Laughing Shadow increasing that to 3 to 7 points when limited to only one-hand weapons and no shield isn't really helping in the balance department. Swashbuckler and Thaumaturge still both do more extra damage.

The other hybrid studies aren't much better - and some are worse. On one hand we have Inexorable Iron that can give almost as much temp HP per round as a Faith's Flamekeeper Witch or Chalice Thaumaturge. And on the other we have Twisting Tree which lets you change the weapon traits on your staff as a free action instead of a regular action.

It is pretty clear that Arcane Cascade is not balanced to be the main draw of the Magus class. Compared to the main features of other classes, it compares really badly.

Inexorable Iron + Sustaining Steel is really nice though.

Otherwise, yeah, I don't feel most hybrid studies are that spectacular. I'm also curious why arcane cascade gives you damage to begin with.

Inexorable Iron + Sustaining Steel is really nice though.

Otherwise, yeah, I don't feel most hybrid studies are that spectacular. I'm also curious why arcane cascade gives you damage to begin with.

I think to give some sustained damage between bursts with spellstrike, and maybe clever ways to exploit weaknesses

Ascalaphus wrote:

Do you really need Int? If you're not asking for saving throws, you don't, really.

I thought it was rather a nice little trick that the magus doesn't really rely on caster DCs. If you can just hit you can make the spell stick. You can use cantrips from a multiclass or ancestry just fine.

Well, you need one or the other - either INT to direct cast your damage at your enemies, or to Spellstrike them as often as possible. Otherwise why are you playing a Magus? Without one or the other, you would be doing better with a Fighter and a spellcasting archetype for the buff spells you want to use.

What I mean is that spellstrike with spell attack spells doesn't care about your intelligence. Even more now that the remaster removed ability score from cantrip damage.

You can play an Int 10, Wis 14 magus with cleric multiclass and use divine lance with holy damage, for example. (But I don't think you can cascade into holy damage anymore.)

What I mean is that spellstrike with spell attack spells doesn't care about your intelligence. Even more now that the remaster removed ability score from cantrip damage.

You can play an Int 10, Wis 14 magus with cleric multiclass and use divine lance with holy damage, for example. (But I don't think you can cascade into holy damage anymore.)

Right. That is fine.

What I am responding to that with is that by doing so you are relying even more exclusively on Spellstrike. So (at least for non-Starlit Span Magus) at some point you are going to encounter an enemy that does have Reactive Strike and the only recourse you have is to Spellstrike them anyway and eat the extra damage, throw out ranged cantrips at minimal accuracy and hope for the best, pull out a ranged weapon and use that with minimal damage, or pretend you are a Swashbuckler that doesn't know any finishers.

Ascalaphus wrote:

What I mean is that spellstrike with spell attack spells doesn't care about your intelligence. Even more now that the remaster removed ability score from cantrip damage.

You can play an Int 10, Wis 14 magus with cleric multiclass and use divine lance with holy damage, for example. (But I don't think you can cascade into holy damage anymore.)

Right. That is fine.

What I am responding to that with is that by doing so you are relying even more exclusively on Spellstrike. So (at least for non-Starlit Span Magus) at some point you are going to encounter an enemy that does have Reactive Strike and the only recourse you have is to Spellstrike them anyway and eat the extra damage, throw out ranged cantrips at minimal accuracy and hope for the best, pull out a ranged weapon and use that with minimal damage, or pretend you are a Swashbuckler that doesn't know any finishers.

True to an extent, but a magus is a gish so they still have to deal with some of the same issues as casters. And unlike a swashbuckler you have more options when that happens. Here's a question do more creatures have RS than precision immunity?

True to an extent, but a magus is a gish so they still have to deal with some of the same issues as casters. And unlike a swashbuckler you have more options when that happens.

Sure. I'm just pointing out where the grumbling is coming from. And while full spellcasters do have to deal with Reactive Strike when casting in melee range, they typically don't cast while in melee range. There is little reason to do that. Magus, on the other hand,...

Also, full disclosure, I'm posting this while also switching out my character in a long running campaign from Thaumaturge to Laughing Shadow Magus. Despite any criticism, Magus is far from unplayable.

Here's a question do more creatures have RS than precision immunity?

Creature count in the bestiary books is a bad metric. It doesn't account for how often particular creature types are used in any given campaign.

For example, I have heard that Age of Ashes has at least one book that features a large number of encounters with enemies that all have AoO. And I would expect that The Slithering would feature a lot more creatures with precision immunity.

Riddlyn wrote:

True to an extent, but a magus is a gish so they still have to deal with some of the same issues as casters. And unlike a swashbuckler you have more options when that happens.

Sure. I'm just pointing out where the grumbling is coming from. And while full spellcasters do have to deal with Reactive Strike when casting in melee range, they typically don't cast while in melee range. There is little reason to do that. Magus, on the other hand,...

Also, full disclosure, I'm posting this while also switching out my character in a long running campaign from Thaumaturge to Laughing Shadow Magus. Despite any criticism, Magus is far from unplayable.

Riddlyn wrote:

Here's a question do more creatures have RS than precision immunity?

Creature count in the bestiary books is a bad metric. It doesn't account for how often particular creature types are used in any given campaign.

For example, I have heard that Age of Ashes has at least one book that features a large number of encounters with enemies that all have AoO. And I would expect that The Slithering would feature a lot more creatures with precision immunity.

That was kind of my point. People keep grumbling about it as if the Magus is the only class or one of the few classes that can have it's main thing invalidated by creature abilities. It's annoying on occasion but the way some complain about it, you would think it comes up constantly. Yes caster don't have a reason to cast in melee, a Magus can choose not to if it's to the detriment. Casting at range is completely in their wheelhouse.

That was kind of my point. People keep grumbling about it as if the Magus is the only class or one of the few classes that can have it's main thing invalidated by creature abilities. It's annoying on occasion but the way some complain about it, you would think it comes up constantly.

That is fairly typical though. On threads grumbling about Swashbuckler, people present it as though Finishers being shut down with precision immunity is a unique detriment to Swashbuckler. If anyone brings up Precision Ranger, people be like, 'Meh. Play Flurry instead then.'

Yes caster don't have a reason to cast in melee, a Magus can choose not to if it's to the detriment. Casting at range is completely in their wheelhouse.

Tell that to Ascalaphus's INT 10 Magus ;)

Riddlyn wrote:

That was kind of my point. People keep grumbling about it as if the Magus is the only class or one of the few classes that can have it's main thing invalidated by creature abilities. It's annoying on occasion but the way some complain about it, you would think it comes up constantly.

That is fairly typical though. On threads grumbling about Swashbuckler, people present it as though Finishers being shut down with precision immunity is a unique detriment to Swashbuckler. If anyone brings up Precision Ranger, people be like, 'Meh. Play Flurry instead then.'

Riddlyn wrote:

Yes caster don't have a reason to cast in melee, a Magus can choose not to if it's to the detriment. Casting at range is completely in their wheelhouse.

Tell that to Ascalaphus's INT 10 Magus ;)

Lol it's still in their wheelhouse, that's a decision one makes to leave INT at 10. Can still cast you'd just be doing half damage. It's more than possible though

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing changed is wave casting. I thoroughly enjoy the playstyle and mechanics of the Magus, clunk and all, but my only real gripe is wave casting. You end up with a spell book full of spells that you mostly don't even think about anymore since you only have four slots and studious spells. I use cantrips exclusively with Spellstrike because spell slots are just way too valuable to me to blow on a bit of extra dmg. I use them for buffs or clutch utility like scouting eye or clairvoyance (Though having Howling Blizzard as a Standby Spell was solid). Along with archetyping, the ways to get spell slots are through items such as the Spellstriker Staff (staves in general), scrolls, Ring of wizardry, Grimoire, tattoo, etc. I know these items are supposed to alleviate this issue, but getting to keep a single spell slot per level under your 'wave' would go a long way I think.

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing changed is wave casting. I thoroughly enjoy the playstyle and mechanics of the Magus, clunk and all, but my only real gripe is wave casting. You end up with a spell book full of spells that you mostly don't even think about anymore since you only have four slots and studious spells. I use cantrips exclusively with Spellstrike because spell slots are just way too valuable to me to blow on a bit of extra dmg. I use them for buffs or clutch utility like scouting eye or clairvoyance (Though having Howling Blizzard as a Standby Spell was solid). Along with archetyping, the ways to get spell slots are through items such as the Spellstriker Staff (staves in general), scrolls, Ring of wizardry, Grimoire, tattoo, etc. I know these items are supposed to alleviate this issue, but getting to keep a single spell slot per level under your 'wave' would go a long way I think.

Yeah I agree that spell book casting and wave casting aren't very synergistic.

There's a few solutions. One is dropping wave casting a little for lower level slots but I wonder if it would be better to simply drop wave casting entirely then. Another would be having a kind of wave spells known where the casters entire spell list scales with level as well. Finally they could add a way to make all spells scale for example by using something like the wizard feat spell combination.

I think a decent rule would be that a wave caster can choose to replace any spell known that does not scale to a level for which they have a slot with one that does in addition to new spells learnt. Call the rule evolving spells or something.

I'd also love to see the magus get spell combination as a feat option. It just synergises with the magus so well and the class talks so much about hybrid studies ect... that hybrid spells would fit right in.

Alkarius wrote:

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing changed is wave casting. I thoroughly enjoy the playstyle and mechanics of the Magus, clunk and all, but my only real gripe is wave casting. You end up with a spell book full of spells that you mostly don't even think about anymore since you only have four slots and studious spells. I use cantrips exclusively with Spellstrike because spell slots are just way too valuable to me to blow on a bit of extra dmg. I use them for buffs or clutch utility like scouting eye or clairvoyance (Though having Howling Blizzard as a Standby Spell was solid). Along with archetyping, the ways to get spell slots are through items such as the Spellstriker Staff (staves in general), scrolls, Ring of wizardry, Grimoire, tattoo, etc. I know these items are supposed to alleviate this issue, but getting to keep a single spell slot per level under your 'wave' would go a long way I think.

Yeah I agree that spell book casting and wave casting aren't very synergistic.

There's a few solutions. One is dropping wave casting a little for lower level slots but I wonder if it would be better to simply drop wave casting entirely then. Another would be having a kind of wave spells known where the casters entire spell list scales with level as well. Finally they could add a way to make all spells scale for example by using something like the wizard feat spell combination.

I think a decent rule would be that a wave caster can choose to replace any spell known that does not scale to a level for which they have a slot with one that does in addition to new spells learnt. Call the rule evolving spells or something.

I'd also love to see the magus get spell combination as a feat option. It just synergises with the magus so well and the class talks so much about hybrid studies ect... that hybrid spells would fit right in.

If people consider this a problem then I think the solution is just making studious spells cumulative rather than shifting up in level

Wizard archetype seems like the existing solution.

Wizard archetype seems like the existing solution.

That and the spellstriking staff tbh. Being a prepared caster makes staves better, and you can have one turn into your weapon of choice. I didn't mention this or wizard archetype though because I figured people wanted an in-class solution