Legendary Rogues (PFRPG)

4.80/5 (based on 5 ratings)
PZOPDFLDGLG178LC02E

Backorder Softcover/PDF Bundle $17.99

Backorder Softcover $14.99

Add PDF $9.99

Facebook Twitter Email

Legendary Rogues is the latest volume in our new series of class-focused player supplements, this one focused at the fast-talking tricksters, stealthy pilferers, and happy-go-lucky scoundrels that populate every great adventure story. From their earliest incarnations as thieves and assassins, rogues have broadened their reach into all manner of specialties, becoming skill specialists and deadly strikers, leaping from surprise to carve up their enemies, yet there is still much farther for them to go. Legendary Rogues revisits the core class abilities of the Pathfinder rogue in both its core and unchained version, exploring its offensive and defensive capabilities as well as its versatility with skills (including unchained skill unlocks) and rogue talents, giving not only new mechanics but also alternate rules and advice on implementation. The rogue's arsenal is further enhanced with a collection of feats to enliven and expand the rogue's capabilities. Legendary Rogues lives up to its name by offering an entirely new version of the rogue class, the Legendary Rogue, including an array of archetypes specifically tailored for it. Finally, we reach back to the roots of the rogue class with a brand-new prestige class, the Master Thief, a lord of larceny that will leave heroes and villains alike clutching their purses and hiding their hoards! Grab this 48-page product today and Make Your Game Legendary!

Product Availability

Softcover/PDF Bundle:

Backorder

Will be added to your My Downloads page when your order ships.

Softcover:

Backorder

Ships from our warehouse in 8 to 26 business days.

PDF:

Fulfilled immediately.

Are there errors or omissions in this product information? Got corrections? Let us know at store@paizo.com.

LGP178LC02B


See Also:

Average product rating:

4.80/5 (based on 5 ratings)

Sign in to create or edit a product review.

Legendary Rogues

5/5

This is my first attempt at a formal review of a roleplaying product. As with any review, my personal biases and preferences of game style will color the review, so it’s probably a good idea to identify these. As a GM, I tend to prefer products that evoke a strong flavor and mechanics which support that flavor. This goes beyond mere mechanics; I like products that offer a leitmotif that extends beyond rules, one which can also suffuse the campaign world in a narrative way. I also get jazzed by products that provide elegant solutions to otherwise complicated or ineffective rules in the Pathfinder RPG. Rules systems which unify disparate concepts into a cohesive whole, which streamline the playing experience for both GMs and players are greatly appreciated by me.

As a player, I greatly prefer customization options and decision points that are built into the product. If it is a new character class, I like having the ability to choose from a selection of options, rather than being shoehorned into a class ability that may or may not fit my character concept. If it is a new rules subsystem, it should expand my ability to create interesting character concepts that effectively execute the concept during play, while not adding a large amount of complexity to the character management process.

Okay, with those caveats out of the way, let’s get on to my reviewed product: Legendary Rogues by Legendary Games.

This product offers us a complete rebuild of the rogue class; it was published in 2015, after Paizo had offered us their rebuild of the rogue in Pathfinder Unchained. Why all this rebuilding of one of the classic tropes of fantasy gaming? Well, the prevailing opinion of the rogue class as originally published in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is that it is underpowered with respect to the other 10 base classes in the Core Rulebook. Initial complaints seemed to focus on the rogue’s opportunities to use her iconic sneak attack ability, her sub-par potential to be an effective DPR class, rogue talents being underpowered and subsequent class offerings from Paizo which rendered her skill mastery (another iconic rogue ability) second-rate. Paizo Publishing answered these criticisms with the Unchained Rogue.

The unchained rogue attempted to bring the rogue back into the general power-level of the other base classes. They executed this design goal by introducing skill unlocks (abilities only a rogue could attempt given a specified number of skill ranks), and by granting the Weapon Finesse feat as 1st level bonus feat. This allows rogues to use DEX as their primary combat stat, reducing MAD and making them more effective combatants at early levels. Rogue talents get a few additions, but generally remain about the same.

This is where Legendary Rogues steps in. The book launches with an unfortunate gaffe: It welcomes us to Legendary Paladins in the title bar, which may cause some initial confusion for the reader. This is the only instance of this error, however, and the balance of the book does reference the correct legendary rogue class and product.

The introduction gives us a brief summary of the product, and identifies the key concepts that will be introduced in the book, such as Skill Specialties, Avoidances, and Instincts. It goes on to discuss how many Rogue Talents are redefined to align them better with similar abilities of other core classes. The rogue in combat is mentioned, and then the Legendary Rogue ties all of these concepts into a rebuild of the rogue class.

Skill specialties are addressed first. These are packages of skills (usually 1 skill plus a situational use of a second skill) that grant a scaling untyped bonus equal to ½ the rogue’s class level. Each skill specialty may only be selected once, and bonuses from multiple skill specialties don’t stack (nitpick: untyped bonuses in PF1 stack, so it may have been better to give these bonuses a type such as competence or insight). Athletic agility grants a bonus on Climb checks and Acrobatic checks made to traverse narrow or uneven surfaces. Imperceptible provides a bonus to stealth checks, and increases the miss chance for concealment. I like this one a lot! Information broker gives bonuses to Knowledge (local) checks and Diplomacy checks to Gather Information. There is a total of 14 skill specialties provided, giving the legendary rogue a means of diversifying or specializing while still remaining the best skills-based character class. Well done!

The supplement goes the extra mile by discussing skill unlocks from Pathfinder Unchained next. It discusses ways that skill unlocks can be substituted for skill specialties, or how you can use both systems simultaneously, giving the player a wide variety of ways to achieve skill mastery.

Avoidances are next, which are ways that the legendary rogue can avoid harm. Instead of the core rogue being forced to accept Trap Sense as a linear ability, the legendary rogue can choose an avoidance at 3rd level and every three levels thereafter. Avoidances include such abilities as Defensive Agility which grants a +1 Dodge bonus to AC when the rogue fights defensively or takes the Total Defense action, Elusive Moves which grants a +1 Dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity and a +1 Dodge bonus to CMD to resist a Grapple combat maneuver, Missile Avoidance (+1 Dodge bonus against ranged attacks) and Poison Resistance (bonus to saves against poison, can be taken multiple times). Trap Sense is included in the Avoidances category, but is but one option among eight possible choices.

Instincts are abilities that highlight a legendary rogue’s superb senses and instinctive awareness, modeled upon the Evasion and Uncanny Dodge abilities of the core rogue. The legendary rogue may select an instinct at 2nd and 4th level, and at every four levels thereafter. Options include the familiar Uncanny Dodge and Evasion abilities along with their improved versions, plus Instinctive Awareness (always act in a surprise round, even if unaware of attackers), Leap Aside (rogue can take a 5 foot step as an immediate reaction to an attack or AoE spell; resolution of attack is possibly affected as a result), and Celerity (roll twice for initiative, take preferred result). 10 such instincts are provided.

The next section tackles Rogue Talents as a class ability, and attempts to bring them up to a roughly equivalent power level of other similar class abilities such as a witch’s hexes or a magus’s arcana. Several new rogue talents are listed and existing talents (such as Assault Leader) are upgraded from once per day to once per opponent. This approach makes a lot of sense narratively; after all, why would a rogue only be able to execute a talent (most are extraordinary abilities) once, and then forget how to use them?!? It makes far more sense for a rogue to use the ability on an opponent, who sees the ability and can defend against it once used, but a new opponent has no knowledge of this ability, and is vulnerable to it once as well. Rogue talents are gained at 2nd level and every two levels thereafter, for a total of 10 talents at 20th level. A massive 93 total rogue talents are offered, roughly balanced between re-worked and new talents, providing a wide array of effective options for the legendary rogue to shine.

‘Rogues in combat’ is the next major section of Legendary Rogues. It discusses how the core rogue tends to fall behind other martial classes in combat ability, and behind other ‘skillful’ classes such as the bard and the inquisitor in Saving Throws. It goes on to propose ways to compensate for this deficiency, making the rogue a more effective combatant. These solutions are codified into the Legendary Rogue class, which follows later in the book.

Legendary Rogues posits that without the Sneak Attack class ability, the rogue’s attacks are essentially the same as the NPC expert class, and then enumerates the various ways that Sneak Attack can be nullified in Pathfinder. This section of the book discusses ways to make Sneak Attack more effective and applicable. Most of these solutions are included with the Legendary Rogue class, which immediately follows.

The Legendary Rogue class gets d8 hp, 3/4 BAB progression, good Reflex saves and 8 + Int skill ranks per level. Sneak attack +1d6 is gained at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every odd level. She gains a broad and deep group of class skills, and is proficient in all simple weapons plus the hand crossbow, longsword, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword, and sword cane, as well as one of the following weapons: garrote, longbow, whip, or a single light or one-handed martial weapon. They are proficient with light armor and bucklers but not with other shields. Rather than enumerate each class ability (which other reviewers have done with painstaking analysis), I’ll skip this and move on to observations, thoughts and conclusions.

This class offering does something really cool, something that I wish other publishers would pick up on: In addition to the class rebuild, the document offers numerous commentaries and sidebars about design goals and implementation. The reader gets insight not just into how the class is reworked, but also why. We get justification for the design decisions that were made for the class, giving us better insight into why this class is balanced with more current Pathfinder classes, and how it goes about doing so. This is great; I wish more publishers would include such commentary.

I must mention one regret that I have about this product. Files for Hero Labs are not offered (as a rule, Legendary Games does not create Hero Lab content to support its products), which for me creates an additional investment of time. You see, I use Hero Labs character management software exclusively for my Pathfinder games, both as a GM and player. I find it indispensable, given the vast number of variables that can affect a character’s statistics and abilities during play. When I allow a third-party class into one of my campaigns, I insist that it is enabled for use with Hero Labs. Consequently, the Hero Lab files must either be offered by the publisher (as with Kobold Press and Drop Dead Studios), or I must create the file myself. Now, I am not a professional programmer. My job isn’t even programming-adjacent. Learning how to code in Hero Lab was purely a skill that I wanted to learn, and it has taken over two years for me to gain a basic proficiency in creating custom content through the Hero Lab Editor. I have coded all of the class abilities for the Legendary Rogue into Hero Lab and am now working my way through the rogue talents. If you are proficient in the Hero Lab editor and want to add the Legendary Rogue to your content, be aware that coding will take several dozen hours to complete, due to the sheer number of options and abilities included with the class. On a difficulty scale, I would rate this a six out of 10. The coding isn’t terribly hard, but the number of scripts is pretty large.

Legendary Rogues delivers the rogue class that I have always been hoping for, but never got. This is the rogue that delivers on the class fantasy, giving me a robust toolkit with which I can build the kind of rogue that I envisioned, not some cobbled-together patchwork of archetypes that doesn’t quite realize my vision. Matt Goodall and Jason Nelson have created the rogue that will hereinafter be the default rogue class in all of my future campaigns. The sheer amount of customization offered by inherent skills, skill specialties, instincts and avoidances allow me to create virtually any rogue concept that I can conceive without the need to add archetypes. Their design is impressive, their goals realized, and the final product is a glory to behold. I love this book! If Hero Lab files existed for it, Legendary Rogues would get a perfect ten out of ten from me. Lacking the Hero Lab support, I still rate this at 9 out of 10, and highly recommend it as a wonderful replacement for the lackluster core rogue, and its slightly less lackluster cousin, the unchained rogue.

Do your game a huge favor, and get this book! The rogue will no longer be the red-headed step-child of the Pathfinder RPG!


Rogues get their due

5/5

Legendary Rogues is one of the very best 3rd party releases for Pathfinder I've ever seen. Done as a way to improve the rather disliked core rulebook rogue and to provide some options for further character optimization and to help make the sort of rogue the individual player wants -- a dashing bravo, a swashbuckling hero, or a coldly sly poisoner, among literally dozens of other ideas.

The new legendary rogue gets Skill Specialties to replace trapfinding. They allow the rogue to develop great ability with one or two skills, as well as to use them in ways they can't normally be used in. Like trapfinding allowing you to find and disable magical traps, poisoner granting the poison use ability, and more. Also, you can get new specialties as you increase in level; a major advantage over the old rogue.

Trap sense gets replaced with Avoidances that advance at a +1 bonus every third level. You can now pick a different avoidance at every increase, or focus on just one. They are done in such a way as to make individualization of your rogue a snap -- swordswomen can choose a different bonus than snipers or acrobats.

Instincts are where we find stuff like uncanny dodge and evasion, as well as new ideas like ambusher, which allows you to take a full action in a surprise round, or celerity, which grants rerolls on initiative. Mainly defensive, these are now granted at 2nd level, 4th, and every fourth level from then on. Once again, both a needed power boost and a great way to customize your rogue.

The rogue Talents list gets updated, with almost 90 new and improved talents to choose from. You also get a table of the talents so you can see how they work together. And, many of them improve as you rise in level. I think this is one of the best parts of the book -- I was getting character ideas just looking through them.

Next comes a section to improve the rogue's combat abilities. The sneak attack gets some incredible improvement; and you get ways to use it albeit in weakened form against even non-flanked/flat-footed enemies as well as ones immune to precision damage. The whole section is so well done and thought out you;re left wondering why Pathfinder didn't do it like this in the first place!

It all comes together with the write-up for the new and vastly improved Legendary Rogue class, showing how all these new ideas can be used to keep the rogue viable and fun. The book ends with the Master Thief prestige class for people who truly want to create a king of thieves for their campaign.

If you like rogues, or if like me you dislike them and think you'd never be willing to play one, you WILL want to read this book.I loathed the class and now I can only wish I could play some of the characters this book inspires me with.


An Endzeitgeist.com review

5/5

The second of Legendary Games class-centric Ultimate-plug-ins clocks in at 48 pages, 1 page front cover, 1 page inside of front cover, 2 pages of editorial, 1 page ToC, 2 pages of introductions (with a comical CCP-glitch, reading "What you will find in Legendary Paladins..."), 1 page SRD, 4 pages of advertisement, 1 page inside of back cover, 1 page back cover, leaving us with 34 pages of raw content, so let's take a look, shall we?

So, what is the first thing you think of when the term "rogue" is thrown around regarding the core competences of the class? If you've dealt with any amount of optimization, that will probably be "skills." Let's face it, as written, the rogue class is pretty much an underpowered mess that has been nerfed down from even its 3.X roots to the point where it almost hurts - me particularly. You know, I *REALLY* like rogues and so do my players...concept-wise, that is. But until the advent of Drop Dead Studios' Rogue Glory book, nary a player wanted to play the class...because, let's face it, it's one of the weakest classes for PFRPG in terms of combat utility. Now our rogues still were awesome characters, but I did feel that they lost their central competence along the way - being the suave agents, the acrobatic masters, the thieves and scoundrels, the brokers. This pdf acknowledges, thankfully, that the rogue chassis and some of its design-assumptions are in dire need of an overhaul to be competitive and allow the player to efficiently play the character they want to play.

The first selection of abilities, then, would be an assortment of skill specialties - basically alternatives to the trapfinding class feature that have comparable usefulness: Beyond a basic skill bonus, these allow e.g. expert acrobats to fall less when failing; Stealth specialists increase miss-chances. Specialization in information brokering can yield knowledge on whether an information is reliable as well as rerolls. Investigation specialists gain Perception and Sense Motive-bonuses and may see past illusions and Escape Artist-specialists may make creatures actually waste their AoOs. I wholeheartedly endorse the array of diverse options featured in this section - the additional benefits are plentiful and intriguing and I can see my characters taking any of them.

But what about the unchained rogue? Well, guess what? The book provides full synergy with the unchained rogue and codifies these skill specialties also according to the framework of said class, even going so far as to provide a skill unlock/signature skill-rework of the rogues in question when used in conjunction with this system. Kudos for going the extra mile!

The next customization option provided herein basically takes trap sense and makes it just as versatile and player-agenda-driven as you'd want it to be: Basically, you can e.g. get better AC when fighting defensively or against ranged attacks: The bonus stacks with itself and allows for a rogue to e.g. specialize in one such avoidance...or get multiple ones at lesser bonuses. Instead of Trap Sense+3, you can e.g. get a +1 bonus to ranged attacks and +2 to saves versus fear and mid-influencing effects. This takes a boring, static ability and makes players choose - which is awesome...and yes, the upgrade regarding danger sense in the Unchained version is covered as well.

The next type of ability codified herein would be instincts - these are the powerful, instinctual evasion effects that render the rogue powerful in a defensive manner. The pdf codifies evasion, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge and 10th level improved evasion as instincts - thus, gaining these is codified as happening at 2nd level, 4th and every 4 levels thereafter - and yes, there are means to use immediate actions for 5-foot steps, proper acting in surprise rounds and multiple initiative-rolls, helping the general power-level of particularly high-level rogues.

Now obviously, rogue talents are an odd bunch: PFRPG began with the general assumption of a talent being equivalent to about 1/2 a feat, an assumption that didn't even work with all rogue talents back then. With classes like alchemists and ninjas out there, it should come as no surprise that something odd is happening here: Unlike other comparable class features, rogue talents only sport a general 2-step distinction between power-levels. Hence, this pdf provides almost 100 rogue talents, including a significant array of rather well-conceived level-prereqs that allow for a more synergistic scaling. The truly interesting component here, though, pertains the feasibility of quite a few talents: Both regarding rerolls and fast stealth, which pales even before the sucky Skill Focus (Stealth) at 10th level - the authors actually did the math here and recodified former trap options into a more powerful variant. The care that obviously went into these is truly interesting and extends to power-comparisons between e.g. rogue talents and alchemist discoveries, bridging the gap between the two. Obviously, I can't cover all of the talents...but know this: I consider them basically canon at this point.

There also is a new codification of talents that focus on last second saves for the rogues called desperation talents - from defensive roll to 1/day (+1/day at 15th and 20th level) negating attacks that would bring the rogue below 0 Hp with movement to gaining temporary hit points to avoid dying - and yes, all of these talents now can be found in a nice, big table. Once again, implementation for both core rogues and unchained rogues is covered rather well.

The fixing of the rogue goes even further - with saving throw-fixes (below that of specialists, but better than e.g. wizards) and the pdf also offers an ability to fix the BAB-discrepancy versus e.g. slayer...and also sports an optional alternate rule for attacks versus flanked targets, should you wish for a less distinct solution. Better yet: The damage-consistency and supreme array of sneak immune/negating creatures is also addressed via a plethora of different class features -and yes, this also includes a mechanically feasible take on streamlining the damage-output of APG and PFU's Powerful and Deadly Sneak - coincidentally a mathematical discrepancy I noted in my own designs...so kudos indeed! The issue of sneak attack and critical damage is also, just fyi, taken care of in a concise and mathematically relevant, yet conservative manner that should not unbalance any game...and yes, nonlethal sneak FINALLY is no longer restricted.

Know how high level rogues in fiction tend to favor singular, deadly attacks and hit and run tactics? Well, the mid-to-high-level attack option of focused sneak attacks actually makes agile movement and skirmishing tactics more relevant for the rogue, allowing the class to contribute without full-attack-blow-trading. What if a rogue can't sneak? Well, then telling blows, a 3rd level ability might offer what you want: Basically, they are short-range debuff attacks.

If all of that seemed too much for you - fret not: The Legendary Rogue class featured herein is just what you've been looking for. Nice to see the concise summary alongside the cherry-pick option...and yes, a significant plethora of short-mechanic centric archetypes that have been rebalanced or retooled are in here as well - from Acrobat to Poisoner to Trapsmith, this book delivers - and the same can be said about the two pages of new feats herein.

Finally, the pdf closes with the 10-level Master Thief PrC - at d8, 8+Int skills, 1/2 Fort-save progression (slightly odd) and 3/4 BAB-progression, we finally have a representation of Thief's Garrett here - casing a joint, combining steal with trip, fast withdraws, downtime-synergy (and kingdom building...) as well as true avoidance of magic, grapples and the like, this damn cool little PrC absolutely ROCKS - it's an iconic concept, well-implemented in a concise and feasible manner.

Conclusion:

Editing and formatting, for the most part of this pdf, are top-notch, I noticed no rules-relevant glitches. Layout adheres to legendary Games' two-column full-color standard and the pdf comes fully bookmarked for your convenience. The original artworks provided herein are high-quality and nice.

Matt Goodall and Jason Nelson's Legendary Rogue, at first glance, looked like it was too good to be true; and since most books like this are just that, I went on to test the living hell out of this book. Okay, let me make this abundantly clear: No matter the power-level of your campaign, no matter how much you may like the Unchained Rogue, the Glory Rogue or the like - YOU NEED THIS. I didn't realize how much I needed this book until I actually read it. Beyond taking care and fixing several trap options and retaining their feasibility over the levels, beyond a power-upgrade that was sorely required, the legendary rogue as presented herein is still as rogue-y as it can be - and so much more!

The rogue-class' radical redesign herein puts player-agenda at the very highest priority slot and, at the same time, actually manages to retain a sense of cohesion that still allows for the implementation of other 3pp-material within its framework. Additionally, this book cleans up the design-aesthetic and power-level mess that unfortunately took hold of the rogue class and makes the class competitive without losing its soul.

Let me state this loudly and clearly: The Legendary Rogue is the class the Unchained Rogue should imho have been. It is now my default rogue class, particularly since it cleaned up those annoying trap options, ability discrepancies etc. - this is a labor of love, where, with a fine-toothed comb and deliberate care, mechanics were streamlined to actually play better with PFRPG's official other classes. Oh, and if you dislike any component of this book, its supreme versatility does allow you to cherry-pick your preferred option to customize the respective tricks. Now, and this is where the book goes the extra, second extra mile, it also does something only very few crunch books do: It explains its design-rationales in easy to grasp ways for the respective GMs and players perusing this book - so if a particular issue addressed is not one for you, you'll have the pros and cons weighed and listed so you can decide for yourself. Modularity-wise, this is up there with Spheres of Power or the Martial Arts Guidebook in the ways in which its respective options can be used or discarded - and it may even surpass them.

This book, in short, provides the player-driven, versatile rogue I've always been wanting since the inception of 3.0, the class I always longed for, but never got. Legendary Rogue is, without any hyperbole, a truly astonishing, downright brilliant piece of work and will be the standard by which I henceforth measure class-fix-style pdfs. It is simply ridiculously good and a shining example of what a crunch can do; it thus receives 5 stars + seal of approval, nomination for my Top Ten of 2015 and the EZG Essential tag - if it also covered trap-rules and a fix for the Stealth-skill, it would completely replace my previously favorite rogue fix, Rogue Glory, completely; as it stands, Legendary Rogues is a true must-own book for anyone who likes playing rogues and felt that the class fell flat of what it should be able to do, for everyone who wants more customization, options, flair - this is for you and worth every cent of its asking price a hundredfold.

Endzeitgeist out.


51 to 72 of 72 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Eric Hinkle wrote:
I finally posted my review for this one, after having it be eaten by the site several times!

Many thanks for your persistence and for the great review! Hopefully you were able to crosspost it up to Amazon as well!

Grand Lodge

This is just a small detail, though one I noticed immediately after opening the softcover copy I got of Legendary Rogues.

There's a formatting/editing error when it comes to the section describing what you'd find in Legendary Rogues... It says this, "What You Will Find in Legendary Paladins". Then it continues on talking about the rogue, like it's supposed to.


Quick question regarding the revised archetypes covered in this product: some of the revised archetypes have class features that do not alter, modify, or replace an existing class feature from the Legendary Rogue class. Is that intentional?

For example, the Burglar's Silent Prowler class feature does not indicate what it alters, modifies, or replaces.

CB


Also, there appears to be an editing error for the Supreme Stealth class ability of the Master Thief prestige class: it states that it applies to the Escape Artist skill instead of Stealth.

CB

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

I've pinged Matt to have him check this thread!


Would it be okay to ask here to as what sort of legendary rogue talents, skill specialties, and instincts would best serve a tiefling sniper, or is that best done elsewhere on these forums?

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Eric Hinkle wrote:
Would it be okay to ask here to as what sort of legendary rogue talents, skill specialties, and instincts would best serve a tiefling sniper, or is that best done elsewhere on these forums?

This is a fine place to ask it. I pinged Matt so he should be by the thread to give some feedback soon!

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Canadian Bakka wrote:

Quick question regarding the revised archetypes covered in this product: some of the revised archetypes have class features that do not alter, modify, or replace an existing class feature from the Legendary Rogue class. Is that intentional?

For example, the Burglar's Silent Prowler class feature does not indicate what it alters, modifies, or replaces.
CB

That is intentional, the Burglar's careful disarm class feature isn't as good as what it replaces (a rogue talent), so silent prowler + careful disarm = a rogue talent. However, when writing archetypes it's confusing to say that both abilities replace the same class feature. This is also true of the Survivalist's hardy and improvisor replacement abilities which effectively both replace the legendary rogue's 1st-level skill specialty.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Canadian Bakka wrote:

Also, there appears to be an editing error for the Supreme Stealth class ability of the Master Thief prestige class: it states that it applies to the Escape Artist skill instead of Stealth.

Yep, that is a mistake, it should be the Stealth skill, the master thief already gets the increase with the Escape Artist skill at 8th level.


Excellent. I thought as much but wanted to make sure.

I am trying to plan a build for a Legendary Rogue for the Guildmaster AP and I have a specific theme in mind: Locke Lamora, from the Gentlemen Bastards by Scott Lynch. It will be tricky to pull it off legitimately. Thus, why I wanted to make sure I have the Legendary Rogue all figured out.

CB


Jason Nelson wrote:
Eric Hinkle wrote:
Would it be okay to ask here to as what sort of legendary rogue talents, skill specialties, and instincts would best serve a tiefling sniper, or is that best done elsewhere on these forums?
This is a fine place to ask it. I pinged Matt so he should be by the thread to give some feedback soon!

Thanks, I'm looking forward to whatever advice he wants to share.


In the Cutpurse archetype, what sort of action is the Bluff check for the Stall and Steer class feature to cause an innocuous distraction? Is it the same as using Bluff to create a diversion to use Stealth (in which case, it is a standard action as described in Ultimate Intrigue)?

Also for the Cutpurse, if he/she successfully uses Stall and Steer, is the distraction penalty (as described under the Perception skill in the Core Rules) stackable with the penalty on the Perception check to notice a theft if the Cutpurse successfully uses Stab and Grab on the round after using Stall and Steer or are the two penalties to the Perception check essentially the same type of penalty?

CB

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Eric Hinkle wrote:
Would it be okay to ask here to as what sort of legendary rogue talents, skill specialties, and instincts would best serve a tiefling sniper, or is that best done elsewhere on these forums?

Dang it, the Paizo golem ate my post.

Short version:

Rogue Talents: Ambush Assailant, Consummate Avoidance, Deadly Range, Fast Stealth, Hide in Plain Sight, Sniper's Eye, Stealthy Sniper, Superlative Stealth.

Instincts: Ambusher and Leap Aside

Skill Specialties: Imperceptible and Vigilance

Hope that helps.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Canadian Bakka wrote:

In the Cutpurse archetype, what sort of action is the Bluff check for the Stall and Steer class feature to cause an innocuous distraction? Is it the same as using Bluff to create a diversion to use Stealth (in which case, it is a standard action as described in Ultimate Intrigue)?

Also for the Cutpurse, if he/she successfully uses Stall and Steer, is the distraction penalty (as described under the Perception skill in the Core Rules) stackable with the penalty on the Perception check to notice a theft if the Cutpurse successfully uses Stab and Grab on the round after using Stall and Steer or are the two penalties to the Perception check essentially the same type of penalty?

The action for using Stall and Steer varies depending on how long the distraction lasts. As listed under the Bluff skill in the CRB, attempting to deceive someone takes at least 1 round but possibly more. Usually the minimum action to do that would be at least a standard action like you said.

The penalties from Stall and Steer & Stab and Grab stack. It could even be one character performing the Stall and Steer and another performing the Stab and Grab. Pickpockets work in teams for a reason.


Matt Goodall wrote:
Eric Hinkle wrote:
Would it be okay to ask here to as what sort of legendary rogue talents, skill specialties, and instincts would best serve a tiefling sniper, or is that best done elsewhere on these forums?

Dang it, the Paizo golem ate my post.

Short version:

Rogue Talents: Ambush Assailant, Consummate Avoidance, Deadly Range, Fast Stealth, Hide in Plain Sight, Sniper's Eye, Stealthy Sniper, Superlative Stealth.

Instincts: Ambusher and Leap Aside

Skill Specialties: Imperceptible and Vigilance

Hope that helps.

It helps quite a bit. Thank you very much.


I have a player whose pc is a kitsune rogue with the trickster archetype (from the Advanced Races Guide). If I wanted to convert that archetype with the Legendary Rogue in mind, what do you guys recommend in making the archetype fit? Does the archetype's class feature Kitsune's Guile replaces all skill specialties for the Legendary Rogue (since it replaces trapfinding for the Core Rogue)? Likewise, does the archetype's Kitsune's Charm replaces all avoidances for the Legendary Rogue (since it replaces trap sense for the Core Rogue)?

I feel like the archetype needs some changing to fit a Legendary Rogue. If I had to redo the archetype's class features, Kitsune's Guile would function like most skill specialties, but instead of replacing all skill specialties, it just replaces the 1st level skill specialty and the 4th level skill specialty. Kitsune's Charm replacing all avoidances seems off to me; it is not quite as useful as the Major Magic rogue talent but definitely almost identical. It is certainly better than 1 or 2 avoidances. Hmm, I'm a bit torn on that one for now.

CB

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Kitsune's Guile adds Int to 4 skills (Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Disguise) which is very strong for a skill speciality, especially at low levels. I'd probably replace inherent talent and the 1st-level skill specialty for it, although replacing both 1st and 4th level skill specialities is also an option (but does make dipping a bit too easy, unless you limit the Int bonus to be less than or equal to class level, or something like that).

Kitsune's Charm isn't an avoidance, it's more like a specialised rogue talent, I'd make it a talent that only tricksters can take and I'd make it more like the standard major magic talent (no -2 to caster level, and more uses per day). Similar to how the acrobat archetype can choose specific spells for major magic without needing minor magic.

Hope that helps.


I was actually thinking along the lines of suggesting that Kitsune's Guile not to add INT mod to the 4 class skills mentioned but rather grant 1/2 rogue level to 2 of the skills as the first skill specialty and the same bonus to the other 2 skills when you would otherwise get the 4th level skill specialty. That way, it discourages just a few levels of dipping to get the same bonus from adding just INT mod straight away and rewards the player for investing more into the class for long-term play. I can't recall offhand if there are already skill specialty options that would cover those 4 skills already. I will look again.

As for Kitsune's Charm, that is a good idea. It fits more into the lore of how Kitsunes are usually better than charming people because they have a natural gift at it.

Thanks for the feedback, :)

CB


Out of curiosity, for the Deadly Range rogue talent, is the circumstance bonus equal to the Legendary Rogue's sneak attack damage die a circumstance bonus added to the total damage dealt by the ranged sneak attack or is it a circumstance bonus added to the attack roll of the ranged sneak attack?

The same question applies to the Sniper's Eye rogue talent since it says the circumstance bonus provided by Sniper's Eye stacks with that of Deadly Range.

Is it me or are the benefits of the Deadly Range rogue talent too good? Especially in conjunction with the Sniper's Eye rogue talent?

For example, a 6th level Legendary Rogue would (at the bare minimum and depending on the correct interpretation of the rogue talents above), have either:

+13 to hit with a ranged sneak attack (+4 BAB, +1 from the Combat Prowess class feature, +1 weapon enhancement, +1 Dex, +3 from the Deadly Range rogue talent, and +3 from the Sniper's Eye rogue talent), and that is before any other bonuses, such as the flanking bonus (due to Sniper's Eye) or higher ground bonus

OR

+3d6+7 points of sneak attack damage (+3d6 damage die derived from class levels, +1 damage from weapon enhancement, +3 damage from Deadly Range rogue talent, +3 from Sniper's Eye rogue talent), with each 1 rolled being treated as 2 instead (due to the Powerful Sneak class feature), resulting in from 13 points of damage minimum to 25 points of damage at the most, before weapon damage or any other bonuses. To add the gravy on that, the 6th level Legendary Rogue, with the Deadly Range rogue talent, is capable of dealing sneak attack damage up to 60 feet away.

Just a tad concerned here but I may be missing something here to put it all in perspective.

CB


"When making ranged sneak attacks, the rogue gains a +1
circumstance bonus on each sneak attack damage die." (LR, pg. 10)

This is pretty straightforward; for every damage die, you get a +1 STATIC BONUS to DAMAGE. Why? Because it's a bonus applied directly to the sneak damage die, not the atk-roll. I *might* be wrong, but having had a LR in my games for ages, I'm pretty sure I got it right.

Sniper'eye EXPLICITLY stacks with Deadly Range. "This circumstance bonus stacks with the circumstance bonus from the deadly range talent." (pg 14.)

Sovereign Court

Hi Legendary Games team!

Just posted a positive review of Legendary Rogues, thanks for the awesome product.

I have a question about the Finesse Training and Finesse Specialist Rogue Talents. Finesse Training allows the rogue to add DEX to damage for finessable weapons, and Finesse Specialist allows the rogue to select ONE weapon to add DEX to damage. Why would one select Finesse Specialist? Unless I'm missing something, Finesse Training gives you more than what Finesse Specialist offers.

What am I missing on this? Why are there two distinct talents?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Finesse Training grants Dex to damage with "a sap, short sword, sword cane, rapier, or any simple weapon" that is finessable. You would select Finesse Training for any of these weapons or Finesse Specialist for any other finessable weapon.

51 to 72 of 72 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Paizo / Product Discussion / Legendary Rogues (PFRPG) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.