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For those not in the know, this product began as a homebrew system designed by Rogue Eidolon (aka Mark Seifter, Designer extraordinaire for Paizo these days) for use in his Jade Regent home game.
He mentioned it one year ago in a thread from Magnuskn about the AP and got rather enthusiastic feedbacks from several posters (including this humble one). Which, in time, led to this release.
Who knows. Maybe your homebrew system or adventure or setting will be next ;-)
I love this game.
Can someone break down for me the difference between this and Imperial Relationships? I mean the product sounds cool but I don't really understand the extent of each one at this point.
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Way I read it, this product gives the system, while products such as Imperial Relationships give the parameters/concrete examples for specific characters such as the main NPCs in Jade Regent.
So, I guess you need this product to use Imperial Relationships. And IR can be used as an example by the author himself of how the system described in this product can be used. Obviously, if you use IR for Jade Regent, the value is immediate.
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The black raven's got it down cold. I would recommend buying Imperial Relationships because the examples are really useful in bringing the system to life and cribbing from how I did it for your own relationships. But if you're not running a Far Eastern adventure path, the only one you absolutely need to get started is this one!
This is a fantastic idea! I can't wait to see the relationship book to cover Reign of Winter. Bought!
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From the book:
This is referring to Harrow Cards (I assume); how does a player choose which card represents him or herself? In which book is this covered? Thanks, =)
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Just pick one that matches your alignment and personality, based on the Harrow meaning of the cards.
Thank you for the quick reply, =)
By the by, any chance that after Imperial Relationships we'll be seeing similar books for the Kingbreaker campaign? It'd be a natural for that campaign given the amount of non-combat interaction with NPCs you can have while putting your new nation together.
If you happened to be using this for a Far Eastern Adventure Path, you would most certainly replace the relationship rules with these. Also, in that case, I highly recommend Imperial Relationships, which has four main relationships detailed out.
#1 Third Party Publisher Download from the Paizo web store this week. And Imperial Relationships made the Top 10, as well. Not too shabby.
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Are milestones meant to be tied to the rank up scenarios presented in Imperial relationships or are they meant to be something more free floating that happens independent of the rank ups?
Are gifts something that can happen separate from milestones or are they meant to only happen in tandem with milestones?
So what happens if a player reaches the camaraderie cap with a character but there are no more milestones planned for that current part of the adventure path, can they still rank up without a milestone or are they supposed to wait until another milestone occurs and try then?
If a player fails his chance to rank up at a milestone and again they are out of milestones does that mean that they have to wait till another one occurs or can they initiate the rank up without being in a milestone?
The guide suggests that there should be about 5 milestones per ap book. Are each of these meant to be tied to individual characters or is the opportunity an open opportunity to advance your plot with any character you can?
What is the average rank progression supposed to be per level or book? I.e. is there supposed an average rank a player is supposed to be at with each character at each level?
#1 Third Party Publisher Download from the Paizo web store this week. And Imperial Relationships made the Top 10, as well. Not too shabby.
Congratulations to you and Legendary Games!
Are milestones meant to be tied to the rank up scenarios presented in Imperial relationships or are they meant to be something more free floating that happens independent of the rank ups?
Are gifts something that can happen separate from milestones or are they meant to only happen in tandem with milestones?
So what happens if a player reaches the camaraderie cap with a character but there are no more milestones planned for that current part of the adventure path, can they still rank up without a milestone or are they supposed to wait until another milestone occurs and try then?
If a player fails his chance to rank up at a milestone and again they are out of milestones does that mean that they have to wait till another one occurs or can they initiate the rank up without being in a milestone?
The guide suggests that there should be about 5 milestones per ap book. Are each of these meant to be tied to individual characters or is the opportunity an open opportunity to advance your plot with any character you can?
What is the average rank progression supposed to be per level or book? I.e. is there supposed an average rank a player is supposed to be at with each character at each level?
Think of milestones like markers that together delimit a period of time. So let's say Milestone #10 was saving the frog princess and Milestone #11 was allying with the flamingo knights. Then between those two events, each PC can try one gift or activity to gain CP, and if they are ready for rank up, they can attempt that rank up once (if they gain enough CP to rank up due to a gift or activity, they can do both). While 5 milestones per book is a good bare minimum, I tended to have far more milestones in some books, and most books had at least 10. However, you can pace things in a way that works for your campaign. It's up to you how quickly you want relationships to progress. If you progress them in such a way that people are reaching rank 10 before, say, book 5, you'll definitely need to adjust the XP from the provided example, and there's not more to explore with that NPC from then on, but then there's more NPCs, so it's probably OK. Someone like a bard with tons of skills and great performs is probably going to reach a high rank with NPCs who like performances no matter what you do, but ideally there are still relationship links to explore throughout the game, even if they're ones that only start at later sections. The best-case situation is probably for PCs to hit 10 with their prioritized trait-NPC that they've been putting level up CP into in Book 5 and then some more 10s with a moderate group of favored NPCs in Book 6 if they're working on it. If they're the kind of person who has the ability and the desire to play Persona 4 and max out all relationships on the first playthrough, they might get a lot more 10s, but that's cool too. It probably means they're having huge amounts of fun. In my own personal campaign, for which I designed these rules, we are in Part 5, and one character has one Rank 10 with her trait NPC and two 9s (with a love interest and another NPC that she was amazing at coming up with great gifts and interactions), one character has rank 9 with his trait NPC, who he focuses on nearly exclusively, and that's it for 9+. Surprisingly, the character with the highest ranks is the druid, but she's probably diverted skill points to more various different unusual skills than most druids, and it turns out that Celestial Obedience: Arshea is super-good for these when you're using flat Charisma checks for the lower DC.
OK guys, having seen the first month returns on this one, thanks to everyone for taking a look at Ultimate Relationships! I'm working on some follow-up minis that will give you more relationship links to play with and stockpile for your campaign!
#1 with a bullet for 4 weeks in a row. Not a bad November for Mark and Legendary Games.
Anything else in this line is most likely going to be an insta-buy for me. I loved this product! When would one be able to expect more minis? :-)
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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By the by, any chance that after Imperial Relationships we'll be seeing similar books for the Kingbreaker campaign? It'd be a natural for that campaign given the amount of non-combat interaction with NPCs you can have while putting your new nation together.
We do have plans to expand the system to cover other APs as well, though the order that happens is yet to be determined.
Anything else in this line is most likely going to be an insta-buy for me. I loved this product! When would one be able to expect more minis? :-)
We'd like to get started as soon as I take the ones I already have and put them in a presentable form for the crew at Legendary to lay them out!
We'd like to get started as soon as I take the ones I already have and put them in a presentable form for the crew at Legendary to lay them out!
I will be looking! I love the system and look forward to seeing more minis!
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Think of milestones like markers that together delimit a period of time. So let's say Milestone #10 was saving the frog princess and Milestone #11 was allying with the flamingo knights. Then between those two events, each PC can try one gift or activity to gain CP, and if they are ready for rank up, they can attempt that rank up once (if they gain enough CP to rank up due to a gift or activity, they can do both).Are milestones meant to be tied to the rank up scenarios presented in Imperial relationships or are they meant to be something more free floating that happens independent of the rank ups?
Are gifts something that can happen separate from milestones or are they meant to only happen in tandem with milestones?
So what happens if a player reaches the camaraderie cap with a character but there are no more milestones planned for that current part of the adventure path, can they still rank up without a milestone or are they supposed to wait until another milestone occurs and try then?
If a player fails his chance to rank up at a milestone and again they are out of milestones does that mean that they have to wait till another one occurs or can they initiate the rank up without being in a milestone?
The guide suggests that there should be about 5 milestones per ap book. Are each of these meant to be tied to individual characters or is the opportunity an open opportunity to advance your plot with any character you can?
What is the average rank progression supposed to be per level or book? I.e. is there supposed an average rank a player is supposed to be at with each character at each level?
Does that mean you can only attempt 1 rank up or CP increase per period?
For example during that period between frog princesses and flamingo knight the PC Sorcerer can only gain CP with one NPC or rank up and not say further his relationship with like 3 NPCs?
I understand not making promises on dates - 'tis the Silly Season, and that does all manner of horrible things to plans. I'll just snatch up the Kingbreaker expansion the first day it comes out, and attempt to write up my own NPCs in the meantime!
I understand not making promises on dates - 'tis the Silly Season, and that does all manner of horrible things to plans. I'll just snatch up the Kingbreaker expansion the first day it comes out, and attempt to write up my own NPCs in the meantime!
I second this vote for a Kingbreaker expansion!
Think of milestones like markers that together delimit a period of time. So let's say Milestone #10 was saving the frog princess and Milestone #11 was allying with the flamingo knights. Then between those two events, each PC can try one gift or activity to gain CP, and if they are ready for rank up, they can attempt that rank up once (if they gain enough CP to rank up due to a gift or activity, they can do both).Are milestones meant to be tied to the rank up scenarios presented in Imperial relationships or are they meant to be something more free floating that happens independent of the rank ups?
Are gifts something that can happen separate from milestones or are they meant to only happen in tandem with milestones?
So what happens if a player reaches the camaraderie cap with a character but there are no more milestones planned for that current part of the adventure path, can they still rank up without a milestone or are they supposed to wait until another milestone occurs and try then?
If a player fails his chance to rank up at a milestone and again they are out of milestones does that mean that they have to wait till another one occurs or can they initiate the rank up without being in a milestone?
The guide suggests that there should be about 5 milestones per ap book. Are each of these meant to be tied to individual characters or is the opportunity an open opportunity to advance your plot with any character you can?
What is the average rank progression supposed to be per level or book? I.e. is there supposed an average rank a player is supposed to be at with each character at each level?
Does that mean you can only attempt 1 rank up or CP increase per period?
For example during that period between frog princesses and flamingo knight the PC Sorcerer can only gain CP with one NPC or rank up and not say further his relationship with like 3 NPCs?
During that period between frog princesses and flamingo knight milestones, PC Sorcerer can attempt to gain CP once with every NPC that spent significant time with the PCs in that period. The PC can also attempt to rank up once with every such NPC who is ready to rank up.
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During that period between frog princesses...Think of milestones like markers that together delimit a period of time. So let's say Milestone #10 was saving the frog princess and Milestone #11 was allying with the flamingo knights. Then between those two events, each PC can try one gift or activity to gain CP, and if they are ready for rank up, they can attempt that rank up once (if they gain enough CP to rank up due to a gift or activity, they can do both).Are milestones meant to be tied to the rank up scenarios presented in Imperial relationships or are they meant to be something more free floating that happens independent of the rank ups?
Are gifts something that can happen separate from milestones or are they meant to only happen in tandem with milestones?
So what happens if a player reaches the camaraderie cap with a character but there are no more milestones planned for that current part of the adventure path, can they still rank up without a milestone or are they supposed to wait until another milestone occurs and try then?
If a player fails his chance to rank up at a milestone and again they are out of milestones does that mean that they have to wait till another one occurs or can they initiate the rank up without being in a milestone?
The guide suggests that there should be about 5 milestones per ap book. Are each of these meant to be tied to individual characters or is the opportunity an open opportunity to advance your plot with any character you can?
What is the average rank progression supposed to be per level or book? I.e. is there supposed an average rank a player is supposed to be at with each character at each level?
Does that mean you can only attempt 1 rank up or CP increase per period?
For example during that period between frog princesses and flamingo knight the PC Sorcerer can only gain CP with one NPC or rank up and not say further his relationship with like 3 NPCs?
So that means that if the PC sorcerer had potential rank ups with all 5 NPCs in that potential period he can take a shot at ranking up with all of them correct?
So that means that if the PC sorcerer had potential rank ups with all 5 NPCs in that potential period he can take a shot at ranking up with all of them correct?
Indeed. Because I am a crazy person, my PCs had the opportunity with 28 different NPCs during the last milestone (they're getting to the end and have met nearly all that they will ever meet, and they've fastidiously managed to convince every possible NPC to join their caravan because they love collecting NPCs and ranking them up).
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So that means that if the PC sorcerer had potential rank ups with all 5 NPCs in that potential period he can take a shot at ranking up with all of them correct?Indeed. Because I am a crazy person, my PCs had the opportunity with 28 different NPCs during the last milestone (they're getting to the end and have met nearly all that they will ever meet, and they've fastidiously managed to convince every possible NPC to join their caravan because they love collecting NPCs and ranking them up).
Lord! That's way more than I thought you could pull per milestone! I actually use the caravan system in my homebrew and custom build hirable NPCs for them alongside the heavyweight ones and they've started to befriend them as well! I thought it was just one and considering the number of milestones you got (around 5-10) by the end of it you would have all of them amongst the party. This does not make incorporating this now that the game has been going for almost a year much easier.
k next question:
So with CP that can be earned at any time that I as GM deign that they have done something to help further their relationship with an NPC rather than just at milestones correct?
With gifts are those meant to be something that can only be used to rank up or is that mechanic also applicable to earning CP?
So that means that if the PC sorcerer had potential rank ups with all 5 NPCs in that potential period he can take a shot at ranking up with all of them correct?Indeed. Because I am a crazy person, my PCs had the opportunity with 28 different NPCs during the last milestone (they're getting to the end and have met nearly all that they will ever meet, and they've fastidiously managed to convince every possible NPC to join their caravan because they love collecting NPCs and ranking them up).
Lord! That's way more than I thought you could pull per milestone! I actually use the caravan system in my homebrew and custom build hirable NPCs for them alongside the heavyweight ones and they've started to befriend them as well! I thought it was just one and considering the number of milestones you got (around 5-10) by the end of it you would have all of them amongst the party. This does not make incorporating this now that the game has been going for almost a year much easier.
k next question:
So with CP that can be earned at any time that I as GM deign that they have done something to help further their relationship with an NPC rather than just at milestones correct?
With gifts are those meant to be something that can only be used to rank up or is that mechanic also applicable to earning CP?
Each milestone, they get 1 attempt per NPC to give a gift or perform an interaction using a skill (maybe go on a little hunting trip, etc). This might give CP. However, if the PCs do something significant for the NPC, it might give free CP above and beyond this. For instance, saving an NPC from being kidnapped would definitely count.
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Each milestone, they get 1 attempt per NPC to give a gift or perform an interaction using a skill (maybe go on a little hunting trip, etc). This might give CP. However, if the PCs do something significant for the NPC, it might give free CP above and beyond this. For instance, saving an NPC from being kidnapped would definitely count.So that means that if the PC sorcerer had potential rank ups with all 5 NPCs in that potential period he can take a shot at ranking up with all of them correct?Indeed. Because I am a crazy person, my PCs had the opportunity with 28 different NPCs during the last milestone (they're getting to the end and have met nearly all that they will ever meet, and they've fastidiously managed to convince every possible NPC to join their caravan because they love collecting NPCs and ranking them up).
Lord! That's way more than I thought you could pull per milestone! I actually use the caravan system in my homebrew and custom build hirable NPCs for them alongside the heavyweight ones and they've started to befriend them as well! I thought it was just one and considering the number of milestones you got (around 5-10) by the end of it you would have all of them amongst the party. This does not make incorporating this now that the game has been going for almost a year much easier.
k next question:
So with CP that can be earned at any time that I as GM deign that they have done something to help further their relationship with an NPC rather than just at milestones correct?
With gifts are those meant to be something that can only be used to rank up or is that mechanic also applicable to earning CP?
Okay so for the vast majority of instances the only time one can gain CP or rank up is during a milestone. All other times it's just game as usual unless otherwise GM stated.
Okay so for the vast majority of instances the only time one can gain CP or rank up is during a milestone. All other times it's just game as usual unless otherwise GM stated.
Yep, although the CP/rank up attempt can happen any time between the two milestones. It doesn't have to be like on the exact day that you announce "We hit a new milestone guys!"
And also, leveling up gives you some free CP to spend on your relationships too. By controlling milestones and levels, you can pace the relationships exactly right for your campaign!
No roll, but no modifiers for quality either (so sort of like rolling a 20). If the character buys a particularly expensive or particularly low-quality gift, you can feel free to adjust accordingly.
Another vote for the Kingbreaker expansion!
Review, review, it's time for a review.
Done!
Okay so other question, if you are using downtime to gain CP with a character what is the DC supposed to be? Do we just use the preexisting metric for earning ranks or does it use a different formula?
Downtime basically allows for "milestones" even when actual milestones aren't happening in the game. Treat the downtime spent just like using a milestone to spend time with that NPC.
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Okay so other question, if you are using downtime to gain CP with a character what is the DC supposed to be? Do we just use the preexisting metric for earning ranks or does it use a different formula?Downtime basically allows for "milestones" even when actual milestones aren't happening in the game. Treat the downtime spent just like using a milestone to spend time with that NPC.
So they make a skill check with a DC determined by the rank they are aiming for and should they succeed they get 1 CP then?
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So they make a skill check with a DC determined by the rank they are aiming for and should they succeed they get 1 CP then?Okay so other question, if you are using downtime to gain CP with a character what is the DC supposed to be? Do we just use the preexisting metric for earning ranks or does it use a different formula?Downtime basically allows for "milestones" even when actual milestones aren't happening in the game. Treat the downtime spent just like using a milestone to spend time with that NPC.
Yup! DC determined by rank and the perfunctory/awesomeness of their interaction or gift to get 1 CP. Or possibly 2 CP, or in super rare cases 3, as per the normal rules.
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Yup! DC determined by rank and the perfunctory/awesomeness of their interaction or gift to get 1 CP. Or possibly 2 CP, or in super rare cases 3, as per the normal rules.So they make a skill check with a DC determined by the rank they are aiming for and should they succeed they get 1 CP then?Okay so other question, if you are using downtime to gain CP with a character what is the DC supposed to be? Do we just use the preexisting metric for earning ranks or does it use a different formula?Downtime basically allows for "milestones" even when actual milestones aren't happening in the game. Treat the downtime spent just like using a milestone to spend time with that NPC.
Are the 2 and 3 bonuses meant to follow the same system that gift giving does or more of a perview of the GM thing?
Are the 2 and 3 bonuses meant to follow the same system that gift giving does or more of a perview of the GM thing?Yup! DC determined by rank and the perfunctory/awesomeness of their interaction or gift to get 1 CP. Or possibly 2 CP, or in super rare cases 3, as per the normal rules.So they make a skill check with a DC determined by the rank they are aiming for and should they succeed they get 1 CP then?Okay so other question, if you are using downtime to gain CP with a character what is the DC supposed to be? Do we just use the preexisting metric for earning ranks or does it use a different formula?Downtime basically allows for "milestones" even when actual milestones aren't happening in the game. Treat the downtime spent just like using a milestone to spend time with that NPC.
As per the normal rules.
Reviewed first on endzeitgeist.com, then submitted to Nerdtrek and GMS magazine and posted here, on OBS and d20pfsrd.com's shop.
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Of note, while the edits don't change the overall text much, it seems that they will have a major effect for many people (Wanna run it on a non-AP? We have you covered!), so if you're a proud owner, be absolutely sure to check the new version out!
Please do - it makes my job easier and faster and thus means the review will hit site sooner. ;)
Done!
Would it be possible to put up the update on the Legendary website for those who have bought it there? Currently I cannot even access the original PDF that I bought there.
Thanks for the change log, Mark! I'll work on revising my review later today.