Ultimate Relationships (PFRPG) PDF

4.30/5 (based on 4 ratings)

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Ultimate Relationships contains a system for relationships that provides a meaningful progression and story for the significant NPCs your PCs might encounter in the course of a campaign, including secrets to uncover as the relationship progresses, and hurdles for the PC and the NPC to overcome together. Unlike other relationship systems that bottleneck on certain skills, often Diplomacy, Ultimate Relationships allows everyone to progress and reveal the NPC’s story at their own rate; it just might take some characters longer than others.

This product contains a set of core relationship rules for making these kinds of interactions between PCs and NPCs a rich and vibrant part of your campaign. They are suitable for use in any campaign, but for groups playing in the official published Adventure Paths we will also be releasing a series of modules featuring the core NPCs from those Adventure Paths, as well as new NPCs introduced in the respective Adventure Path Plug-Ins from Legendary Games.

The first such product, Imperial Relationships, describes how to use these rules in the Far Eastern Adventure Path, including four relationship links, one each for the Caravan Master, Destined Empress, Elven Protector, and Mystic Seer, with further modules to come to further expand the available NPC relationships in that Adventure Path as well as others.

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4.30/5 (based on 4 ratings)

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A Great System

5/5

This is a great system to use in your game. Since Endzeitgeist has already analysed it, and there is seldom something to add to his reviews, I just want to give you a glimps into my handling of Ultimate Rulership at my gaming table.

After playing Jade Regent with the help of Imperial Relationship and the add ons to it, I used Ultimate Relationship to spice up Frog God Games Slumbering Tsar by building a few of the NPC in the Camp along the rules of Ultimate Relationship and adding NPCs of Coliseum Morpheum by Rite Publishing into the mix, also "converted" into Ultimate Rulership.

My group is at level 11 right now and they are having a blast, spending more and more time in the Camp or taking NPCs with them to work on them while adventuring, for instance a certain Ranger of Skeribars team (I won't spoiler, don't worry).

I can only recommend using Ultimate Relationship in your campaigns and I hope there will be a lot more NPCs for the diverse Adventure Paths in the future, like those already in Imperial Relationships. Keep on with your good work! Please!!


An Endzeitgeist.com review of the revised version

5/5

This pdf clocks in at 14 pages, 1 page front cover, 1 page inside front cover, 1 page editorial, 1 page SRD, 1 page ToC, 2 pages of introduction, 1 page table-index, 1 page advertisement, 1 page back cover, leaving us with 4 pages of content, so let's take a look!

We've all been there - a key-NPC just is more interesting to the players than a given module anticipated - whether as for romantic interests or just for the purpose of being buddies, the social component of interaction between characters is pretty much a component often neglected in PFRPG. Now this pdf provides a concise, no-frills base system to track how players and NPCs interact with one another. Basically, relationships are codified in 10 ranks, with rank 4, 7 and 10 being milestones. the default rank is 0, with 1 representing a basic alliance. Much like what happens behind the scenes with videogames from Mass Effect to The Walking Dead, these relationships are codified via the tracking of camaraderie points.

When a PC acts in concordance with a specific NPC, the PC gets 1 - 2 camaraderie points, with contrary actions potentially decreasing relationships. Whenever a PC levels up, he can assign 2 camaraderie points to assign to an NPC to represent the PC spending extra time with that NPC. Camaraderie starts at 0 for each new rank, but ranks are NOT lost due to camaraderie-loss - instead, the PC suffers a penalty according to negative camaraderie points. The higher the rank, the more camaraderie points one requires to rank up. Once the PC has accumulated enough camaraderie points to rank up, a talk is required, potentially also requiring a skill check or more. Failing to rank up does provide bonuses to future checks, so, much like in the Persona games, your relationships will not stagnate. Finally, there would be the component of affinities - essentially a representation on how a character interacts with a PC depending on diverse circumstances: A xenophobic dwarf may, for example, be a tough nut to crack for your elven character, while other dwarves find establishing a connection easier.

There also are so-called milestones (on the nit-picky side - the first reference to them points towards page XX, instead of the correct page-number) - one can determine these via providing about 5 per AP-book, with each providing different qualities of the interactions and gifts via a solid table of DCs - craftsmanship and repetition of such acts determine the target DC of these interactions to get camaraderie points. Rivalries are also covered in these contexts. A PC with a campaign-specific trait begins with a chosen NPC at rank 2, with +2 points towards rank 3.

Ranks achieved also net the PC XP-rewards and additionally, NPCs and PCs may actually end up with tangible, rules-relevant benefits from better relationships. EDIT: The system, generally, remains untouched, though the revised edition does offer a couple of subtle changes - for one, the pdf now provides advice for using these rules beyond the frame of the 6-book-AP-structure, with the imho most important change now being that the pdf does provide an easy formula you can use with e.g. mega-adventures and similar, different set-ups - yes, including downtime. Additionally, advice on affinity, for example, has been provided. Finally, the pdf mentions the possibility of redemption paths of evil characters in the future...interesting!

Conclusion:

Editing and formatting are very good, though not perfect. Layout adheres to legendary Games' beautiful full-color two-column standard and the pdf comes fully bookmarked for your convenience. The pdf provides a solid array of nice full-color artworks.

Mark Seifter's relationship system per se is absolutely awesome and at 2 bucks, very affordable to boot. At this length, I did not expect fully fleshed out relationships herein, but I do believe that this pdf would have didactically benefited from one or two sample relationships to illustrate the system in game - if you want the examples, check out Imperial Relationships or the Ultimate Relationships-series. This is the nitpick-category of complaining, though.

Significantly more important, for my purposes at least, is the fact that this revised edition does offer rules for non-6-book-AP-relationships, which basically renders the revised edition universally useful as opposed to the self-imposed restrictions of the earlier formula. This instantly catapults this inexpensive, cool pdf to a new final verdict of 5 stars + seal of approval.

Endzeitgeist out.


3/5

I wasn't too thrilled with this.

From the description I expected a more robust way to use Ultimate Campaign's relationship subsystem or a simpler way to do it. But overall I felt that the rules inside were more complex without enough benefit to use it as opposed to the relationship rules in Ultimate Campaign. It also seems to mostly function within the context of an adventure path meaning it takes some work and guessing to do this with a module or homebrew campaign. That may sit well enough with some people so I can't judge it too harshly but there just isn't enough in here and no real reason to not just use Paizo's relationship rules out of the box.

One thing to note, This product is a companion piece to Imperial Relationship. Its less valued without it so I'm giving my star rating to both PDFs as if they were the same product. The star rating for both is 3 stars. While both PDFs essentially make for three incredibly interesting NPCs to interact with the need to do this with a new, and to me more cumbersome, relationship system makes this a product I don't really need.


Want NPCs to matter to your players? You want this book.

4/5

REVISED - NOW BASED ON UPDATED VERSION

Legendary Games are one of my go-to publishers for quality crunch supplements to enhance my Pathfinder RPG. The Ultimate series takes rules subsystems from Paizo's products that need a bit of love or extra detail, and gives them what they need in spades.

Ultimate Relationships is no exception, taking the Relationship rules (originally from the Jade Regent adventure path, and updated in Ultimate Campaign), and cranking them up to eleven.

Ever had a long-term NPC that the PCs talk to every time they're in town, but who still treats them the same as the first time they met? Or had a love-interest who seems to take forever to actually show any interest? This product gives you the rules to make those relationships develop as the campaign goes on.

The Good
Ultimate Relationships provides a very solid (and extremely well-written) expansion to the development of PC relationships with key NPCs in your adventures. The mechanics allow for a great deal of depth and detail in what PCs learn about the NPCs, and provide a fantastic metric for knowing what the NPCs thinks of each PC.

The basic mechanic is gaining Camaraderie Points. These can be gained passively (by performing actions that the particular NPC appreciates), actively (by the PC going out of their way to have a positive interaction with the NPC), or simply by leveling up. When your character has a certain number of Camaraderie Points with an NPC, you get the opportunity (one or more checks, usually skill checks) to increase your relationship rank with them (ranks range from 1 to 10, with 1 being "I've met them" and 10 being "they are my bestest ever bud/lover/confidant"). Gaining ranks isn't hard, but it is intended to be specifically tailored to the NPC in question, and should involve specific circumstances and interesting skills/abilities/checks where appropriate so that the PC can't just max out Sense Motive and Diplomacy and blast their way up to Rank 10. This system favours multi-dimensional characters with diverse interests and abilites, a well as interesting and deep NPCs.

The Bad
This product suffers quite drastically from a lack of fleshed-out examples to explain some of the new mechanics. Fortunately, Legendary Games also offers Imperial Relationships (for use with the Jade Regent adventure path, but see below), which gives those examples.

There's also a little bit of an issue with new concepts and mechanics not being fully explained. Most of the time it's not a big deal - the detailed rules regarding Camaraderie Points explain what they are, how you obtain them, and what they're for, but there's not quite as much explanation about what exactly a "Milestone" is, though there's plenty of rules about what your character can do in a Milestone, and rules about how often they should occur, but nothing about what they actually are. I'm pretty sure that a Milestone is best described as "an opportunity for the PC to actively engage with the NPC and have a positive interaction with them", so you need Milestones to increase your rank with them, and you can use them to gain Camaraderie Points, but there aren't any examples. Admittedly, that's a difficult thing to manage in a rules-heavy product like this one, so I understand it, but I think I would have liked "such as agreeing to have dinner together, or getting locked in a prison cell together, or watching a sunset together".

What I did
I bought this product, I chatted in the product thread, and I quickly bought Imperial Relationships. I then promptly sat down and fleshed out some of my NPCs using these rules. I haven't had that much fun writing up an NPC in a long time.

The Conclusion
Excellent, solid product, with some shortcomings that are utterly eliminated by purchasing Imperial Relationships (honestly, even if you don't plan to ever run Jade Regent (I don't) or don't own it (I don't), get it if you're buying Ultimate Relationships). If you like some good crunchy rules that allow for enhanced interactions with your NPCs, then this is what you are looking for.


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Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

For those not in the know, this product began as a homebrew system designed by Rogue Eidolon (aka Mark Seifter, Designer extraordinaire for Paizo these days) for use in his Jade Regent home game.

He mentioned it one year ago in a thread from Magnuskn about the AP and got rather enthusiastic feedbacks from several posters (including this humble one). Which, in time, led to this release.

Who knows. Maybe your homebrew system or adventure or setting will be next ;-)

I love this game.


Can someone break down for me the difference between this and Imperial Relationships? I mean the product sounds cool but I don't really understand the extent of each one at this point.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Way I read it, this product gives the system, while products such as Imperial Relationships give the parameters/concrete examples for specific characters such as the main NPCs in Jade Regent.

So, I guess you need this product to use Imperial Relationships. And IR can be used as an example by the author himself of how the system described in this product can be used. Obviously, if you use IR for Jade Regent, the value is immediate.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The black raven's got it down cold. I would recommend buying Imperial Relationships because the examples are really useful in bringing the system to life and cribbing from how I did it for your own relationships. But if you're not running a Far Eastern adventure path, the only one you absolutely need to get started is this one!


This is a fantastic idea! I can't wait to see the relationship book to cover Reign of Winter. Bought!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

From the book:

Affinity:
However, if the PC has selected a campaign trait tied to an NPC or if the PC has the same card as the NPC, the PC automatically has one step better affinity with that NPC (or two steps better if both are true).

This is referring to Harrow Cards (I assume); how does a player choose which card represents him or herself? In which book is this covered? Thanks, =)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Just pick one that matches your alignment and personality, based on the Harrow meaning of the cards.


Thank you for the quick reply, =)


By the by, any chance that after Imperial Relationships we'll be seeing similar books for the Kingbreaker campaign? It'd be a natural for that campaign given the amount of non-combat interaction with NPCs you can have while putting your new nation together.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Is this system meant to function in tandem with the relationship rules presented in Jade Regent or as a replacement for them?


If you happened to be using this for a Far Eastern Adventure Path, you would most certainly replace the relationship rules with these. Also, in that case, I highly recommend Imperial Relationships, which has four main relationships detailed out.

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

#1 Third Party Publisher Download from the Paizo web store this week. And Imperial Relationships made the Top 10, as well. Not too shabby.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Are milestones meant to be tied to the rank up scenarios presented in Imperial relationships or are they meant to be something more free floating that happens independent of the rank ups?

Are gifts something that can happen separate from milestones or are they meant to only happen in tandem with milestones?

So what happens if a player reaches the camaraderie cap with a character but there are no more milestones planned for that current part of the adventure path, can they still rank up without a milestone or are they supposed to wait until another milestone occurs and try then?

If a player fails his chance to rank up at a milestone and again they are out of milestones does that mean that they have to wait till another one occurs or can they initiate the rank up without being in a milestone?

The guide suggests that there should be about 5 milestones per ap book. Are each of these meant to be tied to individual characters or is the opportunity an open opportunity to advance your plot with any character you can?

What is the average rank progression supposed to be per level or book? I.e. is there supposed an average rank a player is supposed to be at with each character at each level?


Neil Spicer wrote:
#1 Third Party Publisher Download from the Paizo web store this week. And Imperial Relationships made the Top 10, as well. Not too shabby.

Congratulations to you and Legendary Games!


doc the grey wrote:

Are milestones meant to be tied to the rank up scenarios presented in Imperial relationships or are they meant to be something more free floating that happens independent of the rank ups?

Are gifts something that can happen separate from milestones or are they meant to only happen in tandem with milestones?

So what happens if a player reaches the camaraderie cap with a character but there are no more milestones planned for that current part of the adventure path, can they still rank up without a milestone or are they supposed to wait until another milestone occurs and try then?

If a player fails his chance to rank up at a milestone and again they are out of milestones does that mean that they have to wait till another one occurs or can they initiate the rank up without being in a milestone?

The guide suggests that there should be about 5 milestones per ap book. Are each of these meant to be tied to individual characters or is the opportunity an open opportunity to advance your plot with any character you can?

What is the average rank progression supposed to be per level or book? I.e. is there supposed an average rank a player is supposed to be at with each character at each level?

Think of milestones like markers that together delimit a period of time. So let's say Milestone #10 was saving the frog princess and Milestone #11 was allying with the flamingo knights. Then between those two events, each PC can try one gift or activity to gain CP, and if they are ready for rank up, they can attempt that rank up once (if they gain enough CP to rank up due to a gift or activity, they can do both). While 5 milestones per book is a good bare minimum, I tended to have far more milestones in some books, and most books had at least 10. However, you can pace things in a way that works for your campaign. It's up to you how quickly you want relationships to progress. If you progress them in such a way that people are reaching rank 10 before, say, book 5, you'll definitely need to adjust the XP from the provided example, and there's not more to explore with that NPC from then on, but then there's more NPCs, so it's probably OK. Someone like a bard with tons of skills and great performs is probably going to reach a high rank with NPCs who like performances no matter what you do, but ideally there are still relationship links to explore throughout the game, even if they're ones that only start at later sections. The best-case situation is probably for PCs to hit 10 with their prioritized trait-NPC that they've been putting level up CP into in Book 5 and then some more 10s with a moderate group of favored NPCs in Book 6 if they're working on it. If they're the kind of person who has the ability and the desire to play Persona 4 and max out all relationships on the first playthrough, they might get a lot more 10s, but that's cool too. It probably means they're having huge amounts of fun. In my own personal campaign, for which I designed these rules, we are in Part 5, and one character has one Rank 10 with her trait NPC and two 9s (with a love interest and another NPC that she was amazing at coming up with great gifts and interactions), one character has rank 9 with his trait NPC, who he focuses on nearly exclusively, and that's it for 9+. Surprisingly, the character with the highest ranks is the druid, but she's probably diverted skill points to more various different unusual skills than most druids, and it turns out that Celestial Obedience: Arshea is super-good for these when you're using flat Charisma checks for the lower DC.


OK guys, having seen the first month returns on this one, thanks to everyone for taking a look at Ultimate Relationships! I'm working on some follow-up minis that will give you more relationship links to play with and stockpile for your campaign!

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

#1 with a bullet for 4 weeks in a row. Not a bad November for Mark and Legendary Games.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Looking forward to what comes next. :)


Anything else in this line is most likely going to be an insta-buy for me. I loved this product! When would one be able to expect more minis? :-)

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Eric Hinkle wrote:
By the by, any chance that after Imperial Relationships we'll be seeing similar books for the Kingbreaker campaign? It'd be a natural for that campaign given the amount of non-combat interaction with NPCs you can have while putting your new nation together.

We do have plans to expand the system to cover other APs as well, though the order that happens is yet to be determined.


El Ronza wrote:
Anything else in this line is most likely going to be an insta-buy for me. I loved this product! When would one be able to expect more minis? :-)

We'd like to get started as soon as I take the ones I already have and put them in a presentable form for the crew at Legendary to lay them out!

With the holiday season coming up, I don't want to make any promises on estimated dates though.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
We'd like to get started as soon as I take the ones I already have and put them in a presentable form for the crew at Legendary to lay them out!

I will be looking! I love the system and look forward to seeing more minis!

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:

Are milestones meant to be tied to the rank up scenarios presented in Imperial relationships or are they meant to be something more free floating that happens independent of the rank ups?

Are gifts something that can happen separate from milestones or are they meant to only happen in tandem with milestones?

So what happens if a player reaches the camaraderie cap with a character but there are no more milestones planned for that current part of the adventure path, can they still rank up without a milestone or are they supposed to wait until another milestone occurs and try then?

If a player fails his chance to rank up at a milestone and again they are out of milestones does that mean that they have to wait till another one occurs or can they initiate the rank up without being in a milestone?

The guide suggests that there should be about 5 milestones per ap book. Are each of these meant to be tied to individual characters or is the opportunity an open opportunity to advance your plot with any character you can?

What is the average rank progression supposed to be per level or book? I.e. is there supposed an average rank a player is supposed to be at with each character at each level?

Think of milestones like markers that together delimit a period of time. So let's say Milestone #10 was saving the frog princess and Milestone #11 was allying with the flamingo knights. Then between those two events, each PC can try one gift or activity to gain CP, and if they are ready for rank up, they can attempt that rank up once (if they gain enough CP to rank up due to a gift or activity, they can do both).

Does that mean you can only attempt 1 rank up or CP increase per period?

For example during that period between frog princesses and flamingo knight the PC Sorcerer can only gain CP with one NPC or rank up and not say further his relationship with like 3 NPCs?


I understand not making promises on dates - 'tis the Silly Season, and that does all manner of horrible things to plans. I'll just snatch up the Kingbreaker expansion the first day it comes out, and attempt to write up my own NPCs in the meantime!


El Ronza wrote:
I understand not making promises on dates - 'tis the Silly Season, and that does all manner of horrible things to plans. I'll just snatch up the Kingbreaker expansion the first day it comes out, and attempt to write up my own NPCs in the meantime!

I second this vote for a Kingbreaker expansion!

Designer

doc the grey wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:

Are milestones meant to be tied to the rank up scenarios presented in Imperial relationships or are they meant to be something more free floating that happens independent of the rank ups?

Are gifts something that can happen separate from milestones or are they meant to only happen in tandem with milestones?

So what happens if a player reaches the camaraderie cap with a character but there are no more milestones planned for that current part of the adventure path, can they still rank up without a milestone or are they supposed to wait until another milestone occurs and try then?

If a player fails his chance to rank up at a milestone and again they are out of milestones does that mean that they have to wait till another one occurs or can they initiate the rank up without being in a milestone?

The guide suggests that there should be about 5 milestones per ap book. Are each of these meant to be tied to individual characters or is the opportunity an open opportunity to advance your plot with any character you can?

What is the average rank progression supposed to be per level or book? I.e. is there supposed an average rank a player is supposed to be at with each character at each level?

Think of milestones like markers that together delimit a period of time. So let's say Milestone #10 was saving the frog princess and Milestone #11 was allying with the flamingo knights. Then between those two events, each PC can try one gift or activity to gain CP, and if they are ready for rank up, they can attempt that rank up once (if they gain enough CP to rank up due to a gift or activity, they can do both).

Does that mean you can only attempt 1 rank up or CP increase per period?

For example during that period between frog princesses and flamingo knight the PC Sorcerer can only gain CP with one NPC or rank up and not say further his relationship with like 3 NPCs?

During that period between frog princesses and flamingo knight milestones, PC Sorcerer can attempt to gain CP once with every NPC that spent significant time with the PCs in that period. The PC can also attempt to rank up once with every such NPC who is ready to rank up.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:

Are milestones meant to be tied to the rank up scenarios presented in Imperial relationships or are they meant to be something more free floating that happens independent of the rank ups?

Are gifts something that can happen separate from milestones or are they meant to only happen in tandem with milestones?

So what happens if a player reaches the camaraderie cap with a character but there are no more milestones planned for that current part of the adventure path, can they still rank up without a milestone or are they supposed to wait until another milestone occurs and try then?

If a player fails his chance to rank up at a milestone and again they are out of milestones does that mean that they have to wait till another one occurs or can they initiate the rank up without being in a milestone?

The guide suggests that there should be about 5 milestones per ap book. Are each of these meant to be tied to individual characters or is the opportunity an open opportunity to advance your plot with any character you can?

What is the average rank progression supposed to be per level or book? I.e. is there supposed an average rank a player is supposed to be at with each character at each level?

Think of milestones like markers that together delimit a period of time. So let's say Milestone #10 was saving the frog princess and Milestone #11 was allying with the flamingo knights. Then between those two events, each PC can try one gift or activity to gain CP, and if they are ready for rank up, they can attempt that rank up once (if they gain enough CP to rank up due to a gift or activity, they can do both).

Does that mean you can only attempt 1 rank up or CP increase per period?

For example during that period between frog princesses and flamingo knight the PC Sorcerer can only gain CP with one NPC or rank up and not say further his relationship with like 3 NPCs?

During that period between frog princesses...

So that means that if the PC sorcerer had potential rank ups with all 5 NPCs in that potential period he can take a shot at ranking up with all of them correct?


doc the grey wrote:
So that means that if the PC sorcerer had potential rank ups with all 5 NPCs in that potential period he can take a shot at ranking up with all of them correct?

Indeed. Because I am a crazy person, my PCs had the opportunity with 28 different NPCs during the last milestone (they're getting to the end and have met nearly all that they will ever meet, and they've fastidiously managed to convince every possible NPC to join their caravan because they love collecting NPCs and ranking them up).

If you collect all the minis, you too can have an intricate web of relationships that connects the PCs to a complicated supporting cast!

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
So that means that if the PC sorcerer had potential rank ups with all 5 NPCs in that potential period he can take a shot at ranking up with all of them correct?

Indeed. Because I am a crazy person, my PCs had the opportunity with 28 different NPCs during the last milestone (they're getting to the end and have met nearly all that they will ever meet, and they've fastidiously managed to convince every possible NPC to join their caravan because they love collecting NPCs and ranking them up).

If you collect all the minis, you too can have an intricate web of relationships that connects the PCs to a complicated supporting cast!

Lord! That's way more than I thought you could pull per milestone! I actually use the caravan system in my homebrew and custom build hirable NPCs for them alongside the heavyweight ones and they've started to befriend them as well! I thought it was just one and considering the number of milestones you got (around 5-10) by the end of it you would have all of them amongst the party. This does not make incorporating this now that the game has been going for almost a year much easier.

k next question:

So with CP that can be earned at any time that I as GM deign that they have done something to help further their relationship with an NPC rather than just at milestones correct?

With gifts are those meant to be something that can only be used to rank up or is that mechanic also applicable to earning CP?


doc the grey wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
So that means that if the PC sorcerer had potential rank ups with all 5 NPCs in that potential period he can take a shot at ranking up with all of them correct?

Indeed. Because I am a crazy person, my PCs had the opportunity with 28 different NPCs during the last milestone (they're getting to the end and have met nearly all that they will ever meet, and they've fastidiously managed to convince every possible NPC to join their caravan because they love collecting NPCs and ranking them up).

If you collect all the minis, you too can have an intricate web of relationships that connects the PCs to a complicated supporting cast!

Lord! That's way more than I thought you could pull per milestone! I actually use the caravan system in my homebrew and custom build hirable NPCs for them alongside the heavyweight ones and they've started to befriend them as well! I thought it was just one and considering the number of milestones you got (around 5-10) by the end of it you would have all of them amongst the party. This does not make incorporating this now that the game has been going for almost a year much easier.

k next question:

So with CP that can be earned at any time that I as GM deign that they have done something to help further their relationship with an NPC rather than just at milestones correct?

With gifts are those meant to be something that can only be used to rank up or is that mechanic also applicable to earning CP?

Each milestone, they get 1 attempt per NPC to give a gift or perform an interaction using a skill (maybe go on a little hunting trip, etc). This might give CP. However, if the PCs do something significant for the NPC, it might give free CP above and beyond this. For instance, saving an NPC from being kidnapped would definitely count.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
So that means that if the PC sorcerer had potential rank ups with all 5 NPCs in that potential period he can take a shot at ranking up with all of them correct?

Indeed. Because I am a crazy person, my PCs had the opportunity with 28 different NPCs during the last milestone (they're getting to the end and have met nearly all that they will ever meet, and they've fastidiously managed to convince every possible NPC to join their caravan because they love collecting NPCs and ranking them up).

If you collect all the minis, you too can have an intricate web of relationships that connects the PCs to a complicated supporting cast!

Lord! That's way more than I thought you could pull per milestone! I actually use the caravan system in my homebrew and custom build hirable NPCs for them alongside the heavyweight ones and they've started to befriend them as well! I thought it was just one and considering the number of milestones you got (around 5-10) by the end of it you would have all of them amongst the party. This does not make incorporating this now that the game has been going for almost a year much easier.

k next question:

So with CP that can be earned at any time that I as GM deign that they have done something to help further their relationship with an NPC rather than just at milestones correct?

With gifts are those meant to be something that can only be used to rank up or is that mechanic also applicable to earning CP?

Each milestone, they get 1 attempt per NPC to give a gift or perform an interaction using a skill (maybe go on a little hunting trip, etc). This might give CP. However, if the PCs do something significant for the NPC, it might give free CP above and beyond this. For instance, saving an NPC from being kidnapped would definitely count.

Okay so for the vast majority of instances the only time one can gain CP or rank up is during a milestone. All other times it's just game as usual unless otherwise GM stated.


doc the grey wrote:
Okay so for the vast majority of instances the only time one can gain CP or rank up is during a milestone. All other times it's just game as usual unless otherwise GM stated.

Yep, although the CP/rank up attempt can happen any time between the two milestones. It doesn't have to be like on the exact day that you announce "We hit a new milestone guys!"

And also, leveling up gives you some free CP to spend on your relationships too. By controlling milestones and levels, you can pace the relationships exactly right for your campaign!

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Okay other question on gifts. What about when you give a gift that's pre built like say giving them a weapon or piece of armor? How do you make the craft roll for that?

Paizo Employee Designer

No roll, but no modifiers for quality either (so sort of like rolling a 20). If the character buys a particularly expensive or particularly low-quality gift, you can feel free to adjust accordingly.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Another vote for the Kingbreaker expansion!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Review, review, it's time for a review.

Done!

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Okay so other question, if you are using downtime to gain CP with a character what is the DC supposed to be? Do we just use the preexisting metric for earning ranks or does it use a different formula?


doc the grey wrote:
Okay so other question, if you are using downtime to gain CP with a character what is the DC supposed to be? Do we just use the preexisting metric for earning ranks or does it use a different formula?

Downtime basically allows for "milestones" even when actual milestones aren't happening in the game. Treat the downtime spent just like using a milestone to spend time with that NPC.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Okay so other question, if you are using downtime to gain CP with a character what is the DC supposed to be? Do we just use the preexisting metric for earning ranks or does it use a different formula?
Downtime basically allows for "milestones" even when actual milestones aren't happening in the game. Treat the downtime spent just like using a milestone to spend time with that NPC.

So they make a skill check with a DC determined by the rank they are aiming for and should they succeed they get 1 CP then?


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doc the grey wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Okay so other question, if you are using downtime to gain CP with a character what is the DC supposed to be? Do we just use the preexisting metric for earning ranks or does it use a different formula?
Downtime basically allows for "milestones" even when actual milestones aren't happening in the game. Treat the downtime spent just like using a milestone to spend time with that NPC.
So they make a skill check with a DC determined by the rank they are aiming for and should they succeed they get 1 CP then?

Yup! DC determined by rank and the perfunctory/awesomeness of their interaction or gift to get 1 CP. Or possibly 2 CP, or in super rare cases 3, as per the normal rules.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Okay so other question, if you are using downtime to gain CP with a character what is the DC supposed to be? Do we just use the preexisting metric for earning ranks or does it use a different formula?
Downtime basically allows for "milestones" even when actual milestones aren't happening in the game. Treat the downtime spent just like using a milestone to spend time with that NPC.
So they make a skill check with a DC determined by the rank they are aiming for and should they succeed they get 1 CP then?
Yup! DC determined by rank and the perfunctory/awesomeness of their interaction or gift to get 1 CP. Or possibly 2 CP, or in super rare cases 3, as per the normal rules.

Are the 2 and 3 bonuses meant to follow the same system that gift giving does or more of a perview of the GM thing?


doc the grey wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Okay so other question, if you are using downtime to gain CP with a character what is the DC supposed to be? Do we just use the preexisting metric for earning ranks or does it use a different formula?
Downtime basically allows for "milestones" even when actual milestones aren't happening in the game. Treat the downtime spent just like using a milestone to spend time with that NPC.
So they make a skill check with a DC determined by the rank they are aiming for and should they succeed they get 1 CP then?
Yup! DC determined by rank and the perfunctory/awesomeness of their interaction or gift to get 1 CP. Or possibly 2 CP, or in super rare cases 3, as per the normal rules.
Are the 2 and 3 bonuses meant to follow the same system that gift giving does or more of a perview of the GM thing?

As per the normal rules.


Reviewed first on endzeitgeist.com, then submitted to Nerdtrek and GMS magazine and posted here, on OBS and d20pfsrd.com's shop.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

2 people marked this as a favorite.

We've uploaded a new version of the file for Ultimate Relationships, incorporating a few minor edits. You can download the update now!


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Of note, while the edits don't change the overall text much, it seems that they will have a major effect for many people (Wanna run it on a non-AP? We have you covered!), so if you're a proud owner, be absolutely sure to check the new version out!


If you would do a crossover of Ultimate Relationships and Ultimate Rulership, when a NPC should accept a Leadership role ? I was thinking about Rank 4.
Anyone did the Kingmaker NPCs for Ultimate Relationships ruleset ?

Paizo Employee Designer

Endzeitgeist wrote:
Please do - it makes my job easier and faster and thus means the review will hit site sooner. ;)

Done!


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Would it be possible to put up the update on the Legendary website for those who have bought it there? Currently I cannot even access the original PDF that I bought there.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks for the change log, Mark! I'll work on revising my review later today.

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