Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Paths of Prestige

Well, one thing I pointed out in my first sentence was that this bit of errata is actually pretty much ready to insert. That's the real issue I'm having with it...they went to the trouble to create a PDF of the two-page Winter Witch entry that incorporates the errata, so why not just go ahead and update the full product's PDF?

Well, one thing I pointed out in my first sentence was that this bit of errata is actually pretty much ready to insert. That's the real issue I'm having with it...they went to the trouble to create a PDF of the two-page Winter Witch entry that incorporates the errata, so why not just go ahead and update the full product's PDF?

*nods* It does look somewhat odd from a consumer's standpoint, I'll give you that.

First off, I've read about a quarter of the book and it's been great so far.

Maybe this isn't the proper place, but it seems odd to me a prestige class would have skill rank prerequisites, yet not have those same skills as class skills.

For example, the Golden Legionnaire has a requirement of 5 ranks in both Diplomacy and Intimidate, yet neither is a class skill for the prestige class. (The Hellknight prestige class from the Inner Sea World Guide suffers the same thing -- Knowledge (planes) is required, yet it is not a class skill for the prestige class.)

I think it's silly that a PC must be trained in a skill to get into the prestige class, yet does not necessarily get the benefit of that skill being a class skill. I need to be good at Diplomacy, but once I get in I don't care about it any more? Instead, you're going to let me get better at Survival...because why? In some ways, I feel it shorts the PC because they've been required to take ranks in a skill that they will not get the full benefit (+3 for class skill); they're already missing out on the favored class benefit because they're choosing a prestige class.

Anyway, I'm curious as to the reasoning or design philosophy behind not making a required skill a class skill for a prestige class because it doesn't make sense to me.

Not that it matters Jeff. If you have levels in a class skill, it doesn't stop being a class skill just because you multi-class into another PrC. You don't lose that +3 bonus.

The 5 ranks of diplomacy may reflect a minimum amount of competency in bootlicking or somesuch in order to gain entrance into the order itself. But most Hellknights don't seem overly diplomatic, so I could see it not being a class skill for them. After all it's 5 ranks, so it still takes you just as long to acquire them whether it's a class skill or not.

Maybe this isn't the proper place, but it seems odd to me a prestige class would have skill rank prerequisites, yet not have those same skills as class skills.

Typically, the array of skills in which prestige classes require ranks is meant to encourage characters to take their first levels in a certain class or classes. For instance, since the Golden Legionnaire requires ranks in Diplomacy and Intimidate, it encourages fighters, paladins, and fighter/paladins (among other classes and class combinations) to become Golden Legionnaires (since fighters have Intimidate as a class skill and paladins have Diplomacy as a class skill).

Prestige classes usually don't grant as many class skills since your base class likely provided the bulk of those, and as LazarX pointed out, you don't lose the +3 trained class skill bonus just because you started taking levels in a new class. While it does make sense for the Golden Legionnaire to grant Diplomacy and Intimidate as class skills, if you're taking levels in Golden Legionnaire then you likely already have one or both of those as class skills. Of course, characters of different classes (for whom Intimidate and Diplomacy are not class skills, for example) can just as easily become Golden Legionnaires, but their checks with those skills won't be as strong. This kind of represents their foregoing of that area of training on their path toward becoming a Golden Legionnaire.

Thanks for the responses, LazarX and Patrick. I think there were some things I was unclear of in my first post.

Not that it matters Jeff. If you have levels in a class skill, it doesn't stop being a class skill just because you multi-class into another PrC. You don't lose that +3 bonus.

I understand that. My point was that if ranks in a skill is a requirement, that skill is important to the prestige class. If the skill is important to the prestige class, it should be a class skill. If it's not a class skill for the prestige class, characters who take a route that doesn't include a class with that skill as a class skill (I feel) get dinged by losing -- or more accurately, not gaining -- the class skill bonus.

Typically, the array of skills in which prestige classes require ranks is meant to encourage characters to take their first levels in a certain class or classes. For instance, since the Golden Legionnaire requires ranks in Diplomacy and Intimidate, it encourages fighters, paladins, and fighter/paladins (among other classes and class combinations) to become Golden Legionnaires (since fighters have Intimidate as a class skill and paladins have Diplomacy as a class skill).

I get that and it makes sense. I call these the "primary candidate" classes -- those base/core classes whose set of abilities most closely tie in with the prestige class requirements. And I get that even the primary candidate classes might not have as a class skill something that's required for the prestige class. I actually like that about the prestige classes -- giving a reason for diversity.

While it does make sense for the Golden Legionnaire to grant Diplomacy and Intimidate as class skills, if you're taking levels in Golden Legionnaire then you likely already have one or both of those as class skills. Of course, characters of different classes (for whom Intimidate and Diplomacy are not class skills, for example) can just as easily become Golden Legionnaires, but their checks with those skills won't be as strong. This kind of represents their foregoing of that area of training on their path toward becoming a Golden Legionnaire.

When I look at prestige classes, I try to see where they're coming from both mechanically and logically. Take the Golden Legionnaire (GL), for example. These folks are protectors of Andoran and its people, so logically speaking I see in them a sort of warden or sheriff. It stands to reason that the two skills (Diplomacy and Intimidate) would be required. Diplomacy can be used to calm a tense situation and also to gather information about a problem the populace is facing. (And being likeable never hurts. :-)) Intimidate is good for any lawperson ("Respect my authori-tie!") to cow criminals, scare off potential threats, and as a last resort to get otherwise law-abiding citizens to stand straight and fly right.

I think most GLs would want to continue honing those skills. By not making them class skills, in my mind you're saying that for the typical GL, Diplomacy and Intimidate are not as important as these other skills. And maybe that's how I should look at it: To become a GL, you need a certain level of Diplomacy and Intimidate, but once you're in you should concentrate on other skills as, now that you're a GL, you've got a different set of responsibilities.

And the same with Hellknights: To get in, you need a basic level of Knowledge (planes) to perform your duties. But you don't really need that much skill, so don't worry about continuing down that path -- you've got all the knowledge you need to get by with a rank or two.

My goal with my original post was to make sense of what I couldn't understand and I think I'm there. It just required a different way of looking at things. Thanks again!

My goal with my original post was to make sense of what I couldn't understand and I think I'm there. It just required a different way of looking at things. Thanks again!

One final thing to keep in mind is that we are always working within a set amount of space for words. Since we only had two pages for each prestige class, every line had to be used in the most efficient way possible. So rather than give a PrC class skills that characters taking it likely already have (which would easily eat up a line or two), we chose to use that space for more interesting things, like cool special abilities and flavor text that establishes the PrC in the campaign setting. :]

i started a thread about this in the rules forum but got no response so i'll try here...

this is about the prestige class Mammoth Rider

the text of the ability Colossus Hunter:

on the table for the Mammoth Rider it shows "colossus hunter +1" at 2nd lvl, and "Colossus hunter +2" at 8th lvl

there is no mention of ability advancement in the text...does this mean you get the +1 bonus vs. large and huge creatures at 2nd lvl and the +2 vs. gargantuan and colossal creatures at 8th lvl?...or is this a typo or edit mishap?

i started a thread about this in the rules forum but got no response so i'll try here...

Yep; in general, a question regarding a specific rule in a specific book is much more likely to be seen by Paizo staff when it's asked in the Product Discussion thread for the book in question.

this is about the prestige class Mammoth Rider

the text of the ability Colossus Hunter:
** spoiler omitted **

on the table for the Mammoth Rider it shows "colossus hunter +1" at 2nd lvl, and "Colossus hunter +2" at 8th lvl

there is no mention of ability advancement in the text...does this mean you get the +1 bonus vs. large and huge creatures at 2nd lvl and the +2 vs. gargantuan and colossal creatures at 8th lvl?...or is this a typo or edit mishap?

Whoops! Looks like that's an error that slipped through dev/edit. The correct version of this ability should look like this:

Colossus Hunter (Ex): At 2nd level, a mammoth rider gains a +1 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against Large and Huge creatures. At 8th level, the mammoth rider gains a +2 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against Gargantuan and Colossal creatures.

Although, I think it's important to note that if it's in the core rule line, the design team prefers to have the posts be in the rules questions forum, so they can be FAQ'd.

Posts in the product discussion threads for non-Core Line products are totally more likely to be seen than ones elsewhere.

nohar wrote:

i started a thread about this in the rules forum but got no response so i'll try here...

Yep; in general, a question regarding a specific rule in a specific book is much more likely to be seen by Paizo staff when it's asked in the Product Discussion thread for the book in question.

thanks...i'll keep that in mind...also thanks for the clarification...

** spoiler omitted **

The text is correct.

a couple more questions about the mammoth rider...

1) on the colossus hunter ability does the initial +1 apply to creatures bigger than huge or do you get no bonus at all to gargantuan+ until the +2 at 8th lvl?

2) the valiant devotion ability at 5th lvl grants a +4 morale bonus to charm, compulsion, and fear effects...a prerequisite for the mammoth rider is animal companion effective druid lvl 6...this includes the devotion ability which already grants a +4 morale bonus to enchantment effects, which covers all charm and compulsion effects...were these meant to stack or is this ability just an unnecessarily-worded +4 vs fear effects?

a couple more questions about the mammoth rider...

1) on the colossus hunter ability does the initial +1 apply to creatures bigger than huge or do you get no bonus at all to gargantuan+ until the +2 at 8th lvl?

2) the valiant devotion ability at 5th lvl grants a +4 morale bonus to charm, compulsion, and fear effects...a prerequisite for the mammoth rider is animal companion effective druid lvl 6...this includes the devotion ability which already grants a +4 morale bonus to enchantment effects, which covers all charm and compulsion effects...were these meant to stack or is this ability just an unnecessarily-worded +4 vs fear effects?

1) The +1 bonus applies only against Large and Huge creatures. You have to wait until 8th level to get a bonus against Gargantuan and Colossal creatures.

2) This bonus does not stack with devotion, so for most mammoth riders, it will just grant the animal companion a +4 morale bonus on saves against fear effects. That said, if your animal companion has an archetype applied to it (such as from those in Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive) that grants your animal companion a different ability in place of devotion, then the valiant devotion ability of the mammoth rider prestige class would grant your animal companion the benefits of devotion as well as a +4 morale bonus on saves against fear.

2) This bonus does not stack with devotion, so for most mammoth riders, it will just grant the animal companion a +4 morale bonus on saves against fear effects. That said, if your animal companion has an archetype applied to it (such as from those in Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive) that grants your animal companion a different ability in place of devotion, then the valiant devotion ability of the mammoth rider prestige class would grant your animal companion the benefits of devotion as well as a +4 morale bonus on saves against fear.

ah okay i forgot about the companion archetypes...which is sad cause i was just looking at them...thanks again for answering my questions

Who is the artist that did the Blackfire Adept, the Shieldmarshal and the Winter Witch?

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