Paladins of Cayden Cailean?

Are they legal, I kind of think it would be alright, but I didn't see it explicitly stated anywhere.

woh this again.

1. Nothing saying it's not
2. Good rule of thumb is one step
3. Every one listed having paladins is one step
4. He unlike all others that have them is not listed as having them
5. He would not care if you broke your code or not

I would rule no. Check with your GM to be sure most will prob tell you no as he is more then one step and he does no really "fit" as a paladin god

If i recall he does have cavaliers but they are not paladins.

Thee first law: One more round of drinks is ALWAYS a blessing not to be refused.
Thee second law: Thy shall not bogart joints. Cayden's (and Gozreh's) blessings are to be shared.
Thee third law: If you can't remembered what happened or how you came to be wherever you awoke,
you must have truly had the spirit of Caiden with you, doing his great deeds!

seriously, I don't see any reason why not.
you can be a drunk and still have a good heart and sense of honor/justice.
the OTHER paladins (of Abadar, Iomedae, etc) might not necessarily take the same view, of course :-)
(maybe the CLASS might not fit well, but there's no reason you can't CALL yourself Caiden's Paladin)

By the RAW, no.

Of course the precedent has been set by the Sisters and Brothers of the Ruby Rose, a group of paladins of Sune, Forgotten Realms' CG goddess of love and beauty, so I could see a case made for it. Though I'd figure a Pathfinder-ized version of the CG variant paladin (see the Paladin of Freedom on d20srd.org) would be more likely for Calienites than actual LG paladins.

By the RAW, no.

Of course the precedent has been set by the Sisters and Brothers of the Ruby Rose, a group of paladins of Sune, Forgotten Realms' CG goddess of love and beauty, so I could see a case made for it. Though I'd figure a Pathfinder-ized version of the CG variant paladin (see the Paladin of Freedom on d20srd.org) would be more likely for Calienites than actual LG paladins.

I have to agree. I do not know of the first but Sune understands Laws and a code she is the goddess of love and marriage after all so a paladin does indeed fit her , however she is an exception not the rule

Paladin of freedom however is a great fit

There is a prestige class Chevalier in the Cayden Cailean article in Pathfinder #14, described as "not as stuffy or restrictive as a full-fledged knighthood." It's 3.5 and might or might not be what you're looking for. (It's not a base class, obviously.) But the flavor is of a Cayden Cailean paladin, IMO, and includes an aura of courage and smite evil.

By the RAW, no.

Of course the precedent has been set by the Sisters and Brothers of the Ruby Rose, a group of paladins of Sune, Forgotten Realms' CG goddess of love and beauty, so I could see a case made for it. Though I'd figure a Pathfinder-ized version of the CG variant paladin (see the Paladin of Freedom on d20srd.org) would be more likely for Calienites than actual LG paladins.

Okay I agree the spirit of the Paladin and Cayden Cailean don't exactly mesh at first glance, but I don't see anything in description of Paladin that says it can not be done.

It would be one heck of a role playing challenge. But I can't find any rules that say it is not possible.

Play up the Bravery Portfolio and I don't see any reason it can't be done.

But it is ALWAYS possible I missed the rule that says this is not allowed.

And yeah I think Paladin of Freedom is a better fit, personally.

Why would a god like that compel worshipers to uphold LG ideals primarily?

I seriously think the "Paladin's don't need a god" thing should be changed to "they do, and the god must at least be passable for LG or close".

I give it a week before someone else here is trying to justify playing a paladin of Rovagug

Why would a god like that compel worshipers to uphold LG ideals primarily?

I seriously think the "Paladin's don't need a god" thing should be changed to "they do, and the god must at least be passable for LG or close".

I give it a week before someone else here is trying to justify playing a paladin of Rovagug

well in PFRPG it says 3 times you have a god, and serve a god...it just does not say the line "You must have a god" it also drops the ball by not saying 1 step. But really anything more then 1 step just does not fit

And you missed the thread about a LG paladin of Satan being legal I take it?

I'd allow it and but see advice above for code advice. Paladin's alignment restriction should be strictly according to the diety (with no step)which is how I"ve always ruled on it.

And you missed the thread about a LG paladin of Satan being legal I take it?

That was an interesting thread. And though I was not exactly for a Satanic Paladin, I like t point out that Lucifer means 'Light-Bringer' in Latin, and I can see no reason not to worship that particular aspect of him. I wouldn't, but that's me and you're free to play your paladins however you like. End threadjack.

Now, a Paladin of Cayden could work. From what I remember, his protfolio includes Wine, Freedom, and Bravery.

Paladins are brave(immunity to fear, but that doesn't mean their stupid), the fight slavery and tyranny, and there is nothing evil with a bit of wine every now and then(or even getting drunk at a celebration).

When the Greek god Apollo was scolded by his sister Artemis for "drinking too much when he preached moderation", he replied that he practiced everything in moderation, even moderation!

Now from a role-playing point of veiw, whats not to like about a drunk paladin fighting evil while slurring a shout of praise for Cayden and ordering another round?

By the RAW, no.

By the RAW, the above statement is 100% wrong. unless there is a rule in the CS that I haven't seen.

Although I agree that Cayden Caliden is an odd choice, and honestly with Golarion I would also say it's a lot harder to justify many gods further than one step as having paladins. I think the problem with Cayden is that I'd exect any worshiper of his to get drunk occasionally, and the game doesn't really have good mechanics for the stupid decisions people make while drunk. Thus while you should have lots of opportunities for a Paladin of Cayden to fall, gamewise, you can just say I get drunk, but never really modify your behavior under the influence because there's no way to imput your alchohol consumption telling you it would be a good idea to pee on the night watchman.

woh this again.

1. Nothing saying it's not
2. Good rule of thumb is one step
3. Every one listed having paladins is one step
4. He unlike all others that have them is not listed as having them
5. He would not care if you broke your code or not

I would rule no. Check with your GM to be sure most will prob tell you no as he is more then one step and he does no really "fit" as a paladin god

If i recall he does have cavaliers but they are not paladins.

All of the above is mostly true, well having read Caydens write up in the SD AP I can't say that I agree 100% with #5, I think Cayden would care quite a bit depending on which bit of the code it is you're violating.

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in

need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

According to that code the pladin can't commit an evil act, has to respect legitimate authority, not lie, cheat, use poison, help those in need, and punish those who threaten innocents.

I can definitely see Cayden dumping a paladin on his ass for commiting an evil act, using poisons, and not helping those in need if you read up on him. I would say that he would have more leniency for lying and cheating. But then again I'd expect a DM to work out a custom code for a paladin that reflects their god and requires lawful good behavior. But are you telling me that if the paladin started slicing and dicing children that Cayden wouldn't yank his powers like a tablecloth in a magic trick?

I'd recommend considering the entirety of the campaign before allowing such a character. The material on Cayden Cailean makes it very clear the deity actively opposes all forms of slavery and servitude. And even though the material does not include him as a deity that calls paladins, I could see him doing so on extremely rare occasions. However, if such a paladin were to find himself in a location where slavery is supported by a legitimate authority, the player is going to face an almost irreconcilable conflict between alignment, code, and deity; such a character would essentially be setup to become a fallen paladin from the very start, even if a good alignment was maintained. I wouldn't allow a paladin of the Drunken Hero such a situation.

At the very least, the whole order thing would have to be turned on its head, especially the code.

Sure, why not? The alignment restriction is stupid anyways.

"PFRPG wrote:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in

need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

According to that code the pladin can't commit an evil act, has to respect legitimate authority, not lie, cheat, use poison, help those in need, and punish those who threaten innocents.

I can definitely see Cayden dumping a paladin on his ass for commiting an evil act, using poisons, and not helping those in need if you read up on him.

But alchohol is poison. >:)

I can definitely see Cayden dumping a paladin on his ass for commiting an evil act, using poisons, and not helping those in need if you read up on him. I would say that he would have more leniency for lying and cheating. But then again I'd expect a DM to work out a custom code for a paladin that reflects their god and requires lawful good behavior. But are you telling me that if the paladin started slicing and dicing children that Cayden wouldn't yank his powers like a tablecloth in a magic trick?

Did not mean it that way but yeah he could say to hell with half that code more or less and his god would not care. That god just does not have the set up to care if his paladin stays LG or not, he really would not care if he did not use a code as long as he was good, drunk and brave mostly

Bad fit for a LG paladin

lastknightleft wrote:

"PFRPG wrote:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in

need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

According to that code the pladin can't commit an evil act, has to respect legitimate authority, not lie, cheat, use poison, help those in need, and punish those who threaten innocents.

I can definitely see Cayden dumping a paladin on his ass for commiting an evil act, using poisons, and not helping those in need if you read up on him.

But alchohol is poison. >:)

Alcohol is a poison and by the rules they shouldn't be able to acheive the BUZZ... a paladin can't get drunk without a special dispensation from his god...albeit this is MUST for the diety of a dwarven pally...lol...Imagine a teetotling dwarven paladin....what fun that would be to irritate the PC's I see an NPC in their near future...

I've heard others say dwarven holy water is beer, which means undead don't fall down if the get hit with it, they just become drunk and collapse. Then it is only a matter of time until the Pc's crucsh their rotting skulls in...

Did not mean it that way but yeah he could say to hell with half that code more or less and his god would not care. That god just does not have the set up to care if his paladin stays LG or not, he really would not care if he did not use a code as long as he was good, drunk and brave mostly

Bad fit for a LG paladin

I think this just about sums it up. A paladin isn't some all-purpose holy fighter, the class is built for fighting evil from a lawful good perspective. If you simply want "holy warrior in service of X god" theres already a class for that, it's called a cleric.

I don't see any deity requirement specifically listed.

Alcohol isn't considered a poison in Pathfinder, ingested or otherwise. (As it's not listed under poisons.)

Virtuous deities are mentioned...but nothing is specifically stated that a paladin must worship a deity. They do have to live by their code of honor!

So I would allow a Paladin of Cayden, but they better watch out or they might lose their paladinhood...

Alcohol isn't considered a poison in Pathfinder, ingested or otherwise. (As it's not listed under poisons.)

By this logic, mercury, lead and cyanide are also not poisons in Pathfinder, as they are also not listed under poisons.

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:

Alcohol isn't considered a poison in Pathfinder, ingested or otherwise. (As it's not listed under poisons.)

By this logic, mercury, lead and cyanide are also not poisons in Pathfinder, as they are also not listed under poisons.

Excellent! This kind of loophole is exactly what a Chelish assassin like me thrives on!

I think I'll have a disguise as a barkeeper in Andoran. My specialty: Turpentine Twister!

A lawful good paladin following a chaotic good deity I find it hard accepting. They could definitely agree on the goodness part, but the implementation of that goodness would be of opposite extremes. The Chaotic Good Power would find said paladin stuffy, boring and strict. The lawful good paladin would see the chaotic good deity as irresposible, whimisical, and wild. They would end up getting on each others nerves...

A paladin worshipping an evil deity is the absolute contradiction. An evil deity cannot and would not if it could grant a power that will be turned against it. The paladin will not champion a deitites cause to bring about death, undeath, destruction, tyranny, or pain. It doesnt happen

I would say no to a paladin of CC, because it seems to me that paladins are all about rigor, and CC is not at all. That said, the unearthed arcana variant could easily be updated, and as an opponent of tyranny would be a great option.

So I would allow a Paladin of Cayden, but they better watch out or they might lose their paladinhood...

Yes, a paladin doesn't have to worship a god, however, it seems to make little sense that someone would worship a god with ideals radically different to their own.

I allowed it in a game I ran, albeit somewhat modified. My first thought was to go with the Paladin of Freedom optional class, but in looking over the PF paladin I saw that it had already pretty much become subsumed now that paladins get multiple auras. Besides, the aura of fearlessness fits Cayden best. What I did then was switch the alignment restriction to CG, switch Diplomacy for Bluff on the class skill list, and drop Medium and Heavy armor proficiency for an increased skill point progression (4/lvl) and good reflex saves. The character was a lightly armored, rapier and buckler wielding, good-hearted swashbuckling hero of the Errol Flinn variety. He even received the "Call" during a dream in which Luthier bought him a drink in a celestial tavern and told him that a threat was looming that threatened the lives and freedom of everyone in Varisia... (I was running Rise of the Runelords). Overall I was very satisfied with the result and the player was happy with his character, all in all a win in my book.

A paladin worshipping an evil deity is the absolute contradiction. An evil deity cannot and would not if it could grant a power that will be turned against it. The paladin will not champion a deitites cause to bring about death, undeath, destruction, tyranny, or pain.

There is an entire thread about this.

Undeath: A god of the undead need not be evil, indeed, they could be against undead.

Destruction: See death. Plus, a paladin fighting destruction cannot possible hope to defeat Nature, the most destructive force ever.

Tyranny: A LG king is a tyrant to evil, keeping it under control if not out-right wiping it out.

Pain: Pain is just weakness leaving the body. If someone asks you to set their broken arm(and your a a cleric out of spells for the day, or can't use spells period) do you forego setting the arm just because it would cause more pain?

Frostflame wrote:

A paladin worshipping an evil deity is the absolute contradiction. An evil deity cannot and would not if it could grant a power that will be turned against it. The paladin will not champion a deitites cause to bring about death, undeath, destruction, tyranny, or pain.

There is an entire thread about this.

Death: Who said it was a bad thing? If no one died, the world would be overrun.

Undeath: A god of the undead need not be evil, indeed, they could be against undead.

Destruction: See death. Plus, a paladin fighting destruction cannot possible hope to defeat Nature, the most destructive force ever.

Tyranny: A LG king is a tyrant to evil, keeping it under control if not out-right wiping it out.

Pain: Pain is just weakness leaving the body. If someone asks you to set their broken arm(and your a a cleric out of spells for the day, or can't use spells period) do you forego setting the arm just because it would cause more pain?

Well lets see undeath the perversion and mockery of life forced to live an existence of ever-gnawing hunger. The undead feast upon the body and souls of the living. How can paladin follow and allow that when they are fighting thar very thing indeed their smite power is geared to cleaning out the world of such abominations. And a deity of undeath would not be against the undead its contradictory.

A paladin protects all life while a death god need not be evil it would not fit the paladins philosophy of protection of life.

A paladin will not cause destruction he seeks order thus he is lawful

Tyranny impossible that entails enslavement and possesion of another mans freedome of choice. This is a major hubris if not outright blasphemous to all paladin believes in.

Pain weak arguement a paladin will not cause undue suffering and neither gain any pleasure from it. He will set a broken mans arm because it will heal, if he doesnt that man will probably loose his arm common sense.

Well lets see undeath the perversion and mockery of life forced to live an existence of ever-gnawing hunger. The undead feast upon the body and souls of the living. How can paladin follow and allow that when they are fighting thar very thing indeed their smite power is geared to cleaning out the world of such abominations. And a deity of undeath would not be against the undead its contradictory.

A paladin protects all life while a death god need not be evil it would not fit the paladins philosophy of protection of life.

A paladin will not cause destruction he seeks order thus he is lawful

Tyranny impossible that entails enslavement and possesion of another mans freedome of choice. This is a major hubris if not outright blasphemous to all paladin believes in.

Pain weak arguement a paladin will not cause undue suffering and neither gain any pleasure from it. He will set a broken mans arm because it will heal, if he doesnt that man will probably loose his arm common sense.

I stated the god of undeath was against the undead.

Death is a part of natural life. No 'mortal' race should be unable to die through old age.

Old buildings are often destroyed in order to make new, safer, buildings.

So you're saying prisons that have the convicts work are tyrannical and a paladin should set all the convicts free?

I'll drop pain since I was only using it because it was in the post I responded to.

Cayden Cailean is Chaotic Good, and as such is as oppositional to a paladin's code as a Lawful Evil god; you're just as likely to see paladins of Asmodeus as you are to see paladins of Cayden Cailean in any official Paizo products.

A devout worshiper of Cayden Cailean will regularly be engaging in activities that would (and should) make his alignment shift towards chaotic. A paladin who does so will cease being a paladin once his alignment shifts away from lawful.

As a general rule, only lawful good, lawful neutral, and neutral good gods can have paladins, in other words.

Cayden Cailean is Chaotic Good, and as such is as oppositional to a paladin's code as a Lawful Evil god; you're just as likely to see paladins of Asmodeus as you are to see paladins of Cayden Cailean in any official Paizo products.

A devout worshiper of Cayden Cailean will regularly be engaging in activities that would (and should) make his alignment shift towards chaotic. A paladin who does so will cease being a paladin once his alignment shifts away from lawful.

As a general rule, only lawful good, lawful neutral, and neutral good gods can have paladins, in other words.

Are you saying that a paladin is first and foremost a warrior-agent of a deity, then, before being a representative of the ideals of Order and Good?

Edit:
If so, when do we see the counterparts for other alignments, since I assume other deities have equivalent agents?

Are you saying that a paladin is first and foremost an agent of a deity, then, before being a representative of the ideals of Order and Good?

I'm saying that a paladin has to be lawful good. That doesn't mean he's an agent of a deity, but if he DOES worship a deity, he should be devout and dedicated to said deity, which means that if he worships a deity who's too far from lawful good, he'll be drifting from his alignment as a sheer facet of his daily devotions to said deity.

A paladin who doesn't necessarily worship a specific deity and instead wants to be a representative of the ideals of Order and Good can still do that, but even then, if he regularly engages in acts that would do Cayden Cailean proud, he's NOT representing the ideals of Order and will stop being a paladin.

The assumption that there's a "paladin" for every alignment is one that's been around for a long time. It's not one that we at Paizo really get a kick out of though. Frankly, the fact that the Paladin is what he is at the Lawful Good side of things is kind of cool and helps to set him apart. By introducing 8 other variants for each of the other 8 alignments, we dilute the paladin's role and clutter it with too many options that will NEVER be properly represented in game play via game supplements.

I can perhaps see an argument for a chaotic evil antipaladin, and perhaps even a place for a "non-CE and non-LG paladin that's the same for all other alignments," but I'm not really all that interested in officially bringing the PRPG into the "9 different paladins" realm.

(edited)
Hmm. Now I'm imagining a chaotic agent of some sort that switches deities casually, to suit the whim of the moment, and has some sort of ability to 'leech' (or otherwise derive) powers depending on whichever deity is being served this month.... :-?

Now that would be fun.

One thing I like about Golarion is that you are not forced to pick one god or another when play a pally... ranger... or druid. I moved to Golarion after 20 years of playing within the Forgotten Realms (other settings too, but the majority of campaigns occured in the Realms). Towards the end, the Realms had guidelines on which gods granted druid spells, which gods granted ranger spells... bletch!

This was too much hassle and even gave me a headache (despite my careful attempts at trying to make sense of it all with complicated Excel lists, charts and a about six thousand posts on the multitude of Realms boards that were existing within the ether at that time... which has thinned out considerably since Golarion/Pathfinder took off)

But yeah: James has enunciated what most responsible DMs would rule in their game. A drunk ass paladin is going to be a paladin for a very short time, as the drunkeness will make him make a Wis check at some point, which will results in a break of Code of Conduct. [flipping to pally class PRPG entry to make sure that even still exists... :P]

The assumption that there's a "paladin" for every alignment is one that's been around for a long time. It's not one that we at Paizo really get a kick out of though. Frankly, the fact that the Paladin is what he is at the Lawful Good side of things is kind of cool and helps to set him apart. By introducing 8 other variants for each of the other 8 alignments, we dilute the paladin's role and clutter it with too many options that will NEVER be properly represented in game play via game supplements.

Although, if one is interested in such a thing there is Green Ronins' Holy Warrior Handbook and Book of Fiends (which has the Unholy Warrior class) They will need a little tweaking to fit in with Pathfinder since one of the design goals of the Holy Warrior is to be able to reproduce the standard Paladin, if wanted.

Although, if one is interested in such a thing there is Green Ronins' Holy Warrior Handbook and Book of Fiends (which has the Unholy Warrior class) They will need a little tweaking to fit in with Pathfinder since one of the design goals of the Holy Warrior is to be able to reproduce the standard Paladin, if wanted.

And honestly... we'll probably use this book from time to time for precisely that reason. We've already put a few unholy warriors into Pathfinder adventures, and if we ever DO find ourselves in a situation where we absolutely need, say, a "chaotic neutral paladin," this is probably the book we'll go to.

It's a VERY good book.

But alchohol is poison. >:)

Alcohol is a poison and by the rules they shouldn't be able to acheive the BUZZ... a paladin can't get drunk without a special dispensation from his god.

No, no. A paladin never gains immunity to poison. (Although at 9th Level, she can choose to remove a Poisoned condition as a Mercy.) The problem with alcohol is that a paladin of Cayden can't share.

Cayden Cailean is Chaotic Good, and as such is as oppositional to a paladin's code as a Lawful Evil god.

As ridiculous as it sounds, James, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. A Paladin isn't a champion of Law and Goodness, equally. She's a champion of Goodness, a job which she pursues according to a Lawful code. " ... paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline."

She doesn't get Aura of Law or Detect Chaos or Smite Chaos. Her Lawfulness is what allows her to do her job, but her job is to champion the Holy.

A fighter devoted to Asmodeus is a foe, perhaps a worthy one, whose motivations and style make sense to the paladin. A cleric of Cayden Cailean is an ally the paladin doesn't quite understand.

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:

So I would allow a Paladin of Cayden, but they better watch out or they might lose their paladinhood...

Yes, a paladin doesn't have to worship a god, however, it seems to make little sense that someone would worship a god with ideals radically different to their own.

Yes because everyone always do things that are rational and make sense. codified by nine simplistic alignments. People would never do irrational things like worship a good diety and perform evil acts. Or do nonsensical things like believe completely contrary and nonsensical things despite loads evidence to the contrary. Nope, people always fall perfectly in line with the behaviors of their alignment.

This applies to James Statement about paladins finding CCs ideas alien as well. Yes in general a person is going to fit the above and what James says, but as DMs and storytellers we should understand that people are way more complex than the alignment spectrum can posit.

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Are you saying that a paladin is first and foremost an agent of a deity, then, before being a representative of the ideals of Order and Good?

I'm saying that a paladin has to be lawful good. That doesn't mean he's an agent of a deity, but if he DOES worship a deity, he should be devout and dedicated to said deity, which means that if he worships a deity who's too far from lawful good, he'll be drifting from his alignment as a sheer facet of his daily devotions to said deity.

A paladin who doesn't necessarily worship a specific deity and instead wants to be a representative of the ideals of Order and Good can still do that, but even then, if he regularly engages in acts that would do Cayden Cailean proud, he's NOT representing the ideals of Order and will stop being a paladin.

The assumption that there's a "paladin" for every alignment is one that's been around for a long time. It's not one that we at Paizo really get a kick out of though. Frankly, the fact that the Paladin is what he is at the Lawful Good side of things is kind of cool and helps to set him apart. By introducing 8 other variants for each of the other 8 alignments, we dilute the paladin's role and clutter it with too many options that will NEVER be properly represented in game play via game supplements.

I can perhaps see an argument for a chaotic evil antipaladin, and perhaps even a place for a "non-CE and non-LG paladin that's the same for all other alignments," but I'm not really all that interested in officially bringing the PRPG into the "9 different paladins" realm.

What's hillarious is I completely agree with this statement, and his earlier statement, and even the one that "as a general rule". and turned a small thread into a nine page topic because others were taking the as a general rule, as a rule, meaning no exceptions ever. And that's what bothered me.

I guess what I'm saying is in general, no you can't have paladins worshiping a god of an opposed alignment, but don't always be ready with a no.

And god do I hate the idea of a paladin of every alignment.

Frostflame wrote:

Well lets see undeath the perversion and mockery of life forced to live an existence of ever-gnawing hunger. The undead feast upon the body and souls of the living. How can paladin follow and allow that when they are fighting thar very thing indeed their smite power is geared to cleaning out the world of such abominations. And a deity of undeath would not be against the undead its contradictory.

A paladin protects all life while a death god need not be evil it would not fit the paladins philosophy of protection of life.

A paladin will not cause destruction he seeks order thus he is lawful

Tyranny impossible that entails enslavement and possesion of another mans freedome of choice. This is a major hubris if not outright blasphemous to all paladin believes in.

Pain weak arguement a paladin will not cause undue suffering and neither gain any pleasure from it. He will set a broken mans arm because it will heal, if he doesnt that man will probably loose his arm common sense.

I stated the god of undeath was against the undead.

Death is a part of natural life. No 'mortal' race should be unable to die through old age.

Old buildings are often destroyed in order to make new, safer, buildings.

So you're saying prisons that have the convicts work are tyrannical and a paladin should set all the convicts free?

I'll drop pain since I was only using it because it was in the post I responded to.

A deity of undeath opposing its own nature at war within itself how chaotic can that get. What would be said function of this deity. Even so the deitys nature would be in direct violation of paladins beliefs and ethics.

I can see a paladin order following a lawful neutral god of death. They seek to protect the sanctitiy of the dead and crusade against evil necomancers who violate this sanctity. Kinda like Kelemvors order from the Forgotten Realms. They would not in any way spread death.

Well if an old building cant be renovated of course it has to be knocked flat so something new and strong can take its place. I mean its pure foolishness to have a house that can fall on your head. But you dont see paladins going and setting ancient cities on fire so they can build new ones...

Prison as well is a bad example. A prisoner has usually ended up in prison because he committed some crime and this is his punishment. However prisons are rehabilitation centers where the prisoners should learn the error of there ways and re-enter society as productive memebers. Say if paladins were running a prison they would with all the compassion they have help the evil ones and through example lead them on to the paths of goodness

Undeath: A god of the undead need not be evil, indeed, they could be against undead.

Uh, no. That's not a god of the undead. It's an anti-undead god.

That would be like saying "I'm a god of peace. I hate it's guts and want it to be killed" or "I'm a god of life. I hunt and eradicate it". Or "I'm lord of Evil. Because I'm good. Because, you know... I don't like Evil. That's why I'm a god of it."

Destruction: See death.

In both cases, it's not about death or destruction itself, but about deities actively promoting them, for evil ends.

Pharasma is a death goddess. I could see her have Paladins, who would be undead hunters. Or seekers of those who will mess with death - either killing prematurely or seeking to avoid one's fated end.

Though I would say that someone who wants someone dead only because some Fate wants it so is definetely not a paladin.

And look at the destruction gods: Gorum, Nethys, Rovagug, Zon-Kuthon.

I might see a Paladin of Nethis, but not his destruction aspect. So it's not really a destruction paladin.

Gorum: Never in ten eternities.

We don't even have to speak about Rovagug or Zon-Kuthon.

Sure, they're all tools, but usually, those tools are championed by gods who are absolutely not suitable for a Paladin to worship.

Tyranny: A LG king is a tyrant to evil, keeping it under control if not out-right wiping it out.

No. Tyranny is usually defined as oppressive (ab)use of power. And it's always like that D&D/PF - at least in everything I've ever read.

It's very Lorien of you to reuse that "if someone is prisoner of love, must he escape it?" argument, but it just won't work.

Pain: Pain is just weakness leaving the body. If someone asks you to set their broken arm(and your a a cleric out of spells for the day, or can't use spells period) do you forego setting the arm just because it would cause more pain?

Again, it's more about application and intent.

And your example doesn't really fit: Setting the break causes pain in the short run, but will save more pain in the long run.

And I don't agree with pain being weakness leaving the body. Pain is a warning. It's your body telling you that something is not right. It can be a sign of weakness (like having sore muscles after a work out - a sign that the body is gearing up its muscle production), but it can also be a signal to get out of some situation.

Anyway, while a god like Ilmater from the Realms can be LG, he's more about easing the suffering. Your classical pain god is more like Zon-Kuthon. Inflicting it in others. Calling it good and right, of course, but that doesn't mean squat.

As the Paladin doesn't have to choose a deity, then they can still champion certain aspects of deity's portfolio...in Cayden's case, freedom...he doesn't have to champiom the debaucher and drunken aspects of the god, but hey, freedom from slavery is a just cause, and the Paladin is sure to fight for that. THAT is the direction I was allowing the Paladin to "follow" Cayden...

There's nothing in the paladin's code saying you can't DRINK alcohol, but drinking to excess would impinge upon his Code of Honor. And of course, if it were illegal to drink in the town he was in, he would not drink of course. But if it was illegal to not be blind stinking drunk and joining in the wild orgies during a festival, you can bet that his code of honor would outweigh the local laws...

Playing a paladin is a high-wire act, it's a challenge, and I'm glad they're more powerful again, so perhaps my players will play one now.

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There's nothing in the paladin's code saying you can't DRINK alcohol, but drinking to excess would impinge upon his Code of Honor. And of course, if it were illegal to drink in the town he was in, he would not drink of course. But if it was illegal to not be blind stinking drunk and joining in the wild orgies during a festival, you can bet that his code of honor would outweigh the local laws...

Hahaha well in the Forgotten Realms in Turmish there was festival called The Festival of Rule. It is a three day wild event where people do whatever they want all oaths are broken and everything is accetable. Even paladins who were as pious as they can get partake in the debaucheries with no loss of status...So basically its Paladins get naked time...hahha