Forest Drake

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Another inspiration might be the Requiem: Grim Harvest 2nd Ed Ravenloft book, which had an excellent proficiency based system for running undead PCs in 2nd Edition D&D. It was one of the better supplements I have seen for undead PCs of any system, even Pathfinder. But definitely double want on the griffons. I'm thinking about running a Savage Tide or other classic adventure using nothing but in the Company of Monster races, a bestial adventuring group as it were as a play by post, so this would fit in nicely.


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Potentially:

Pissed off seers and oracles that depended on Aroden's previous existence to fulfill prophecy.
Anyone who makes time reporting devices or records history, since they have to go back and rewrite books for the last 100 years plus, and adjust calendars, hours, days, and so on.
Asmodeus, and pretty much all of Hell, unless the archdevils can use Aroden's rebirth to knock Asmodeus off his throne.
The ruling family of Cheliax, Asmodeus, and those that rely upon him
Any former colonies of Taldor, and Taldor itself
Any discontented worshippers of his, seeing his death as an abandonment of their worship and devotion, and his rebirth as simply a pathetic attempt at gaining back their trust.
Any of a new crop of deities who might see him as a competitor for worship
The Whispering Way
Tar-Barphon
Most of the evil gods
Most, if not all of the demon, daemon, div, demodad, etc evil outsider demigods
Iomedeans who won't accept his potential displacement of Iomedae as the Inheritor
The anti-religious nation whose names escapes me, along with other atheists or those whose philosophy doesn't support deific worship
Teachers who have to deal with an updated curriculum.
Students who have to deal with the same.
Arazni, and by association, Geb.


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Ah, the d20 conversion of Gary's 2nd system of confusion, Mythus. Lovely adventure, though it loses some system impact in the modifications given to the Eight Dark Objects and the template selection for Rahotep. (Mummy lord and lich are probably better choices, with either the epic level version of the mystic theurge for 3.x, a gestalt 25th level wizard/cleric wit the above templates, or a 10th level arcanist/10th level cleric/10th level mystic theurge with 5 or 6 mythic ranks, plus the above templates.)

It's definitely not designed for a stock 4 man band (which is good, because the stock 4 man band is massively played out by this point, like the Rolling Stones or Aerosmith) but most older style modules aren't (Rappan Athuk and the 3.5 version of Dark Tower come to mind). I was going to have it as a future expansion of the Mummy's Mask Path, where Rahotep is awakened after the defeat of the Nameless Pharaoh. The latter AP was simply Set's starting move in a game plan in taking over Osirion and establishing a power base to move on Golarion.


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How about aboleth bards sculpting masterpieces and telepathic musical arias of their victory over the humans of Azlant?


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There was a great 2nd Ed Dungeon magazine about a hermit and his singing band of mushrooms. It was called Old Man Katan. Another was the troll who couldn't stand humanoid flesh, and sang with the voice of an angel, so the local baron's daughter falls in love his voice as the troll poles down the river in search of fish.

The PCs are hired by the baron to find out who keeps distracting his daughter away from the potential suitors he's brought in to marry her. Of course, the daughter wants nothing to do with them and instead wants to meet the golden voice she hears outside her window. I also think they serenade together previous to the PCs getting hired, but I can't remember. That was a whole another lifetime ago.


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Adam Daigle wrote:

I'm working on the fifth adventure right now and can say there has yet to appear a red-headed merfolk bard...

...nor any singing crabs.

Sorry.

Ah, but what about an amalgam storm giant/aboleth witch?


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Hmm. Looking at some of the ideas, Play Dirty is the old change the narrative trick for a greater challenge and potentially a greater reward, at the unknown cost and cause of player frustration. I can see how that could anger some people. Some of my players simply kill themselves from their own ignorance and arrogance, rather then using that type of methodology myself, but I've done some of that in the past to enhance the game style as the situation called for it. Part of that is also using older and unknown sources for antagonists in different systems, in addition to mechanical and roleplaying setups. 3.5 and older editions of D&D have a ton of that lying around that has never seen the light of day in PF.


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https://ww1.gogoanime.io/uchuu-senkan-yamato-2199-episode-1

Link for Space Battleship Yamato 2199. Also the DVD/Blue Rays are out.

And as for love triangles and harem tropes, it's simply a matter of preference. The Senpai noticed me, or the disturbing best girl style, continued coverage of teenage shut ins or the awkwardness of adolescence is becoming simply too thin after 40 or so years of watching the genre. SB 2199 Yamato's love triangle was at least done well with some sense to adults dealing with it, and didn't completely dominate the story in favor of the focus on three people.


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Let's just say my tastes run the gamut, but the harem approach started becoming tiresome around the Tenchi Muyo days for me. Frankly I am looking forward to the animated version of Blame, the second season of Space Battleship Yamato 2199 (which at least made the love triangle point far more adult and less grind my teeth), any continuation of Aldnoah Zero if it ever comes out (fat chance given the ending), and some other pieces. I rewatch too many old series and haven't found enough good new ones to commit to them yet.


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A lot of them have also flopped over into the 3.5 Monster Manuals as well, like the psurlon,etc. That makes things even easier. I'll get started this wekk.


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Quad Wolf 1 - 16 hp
Quad Wolf 2 - no damage
Bipedal Wolf 1 -9 hp
Bipedal Wolf 2 -10 hp

The Albatross' arrow impacts into the other bipedal wolf, sinking deep, but the wolf simply pulls it out.

Quad Wolf 1 bites at Io
Bite Attack: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (17) + 7 = 24
damage: 1d6 + 4 ⇒ (2) + 4 = 6
trip: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (7) + 7 = 14

Io takes 6 pts as the wolf bites her, but her improved sense of balance keeps her on her feet.

Quad Wolf 2 attacks Headsman
Bite: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (7) + 7 = 14

The second wolf misses Headsman clean.

The other wolf in the rear hurls a sling stone at Headsman
Sling: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (4) + 5 = 9

The sling stone goes wide and hurls into the desk.


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If someone can get me a list of all of the 2nd Ed sources for Dark Sun specific monsters (other then ones like the gith pirates that are technically IP forbidden) I can convert them, since I can easily get the sources legally, but I don't remember them all right off hand. I'm working on an amalgam campaign world that uses Dark Sun, Dragonmech, the Lone Wolf adventure book settings by Joe Dever converted over from the 3.5 iteration, and three other homebrew settings as separate continents on one world. I would love to add in the monster sets.


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Besides, I must have ALL of the third party. I MUST! IT IS THE PRECIOUS!


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Rysky wrote:

Oh various gods and goddesses above and below please no latex armor. Or bikini armor.

... is there a summon succubus harem spell?

Yes there is. It's called the planar binding/planar ally spell chain or extended summon monster or spell research for our core PF gentry, and I'm pretty sure that another one exists in the oft neglected and never referenced book that Mongoose Publishing put out for the same topic for magic, Nymphology, Blue Magic. And for those interested in expansion on some of these topics with a different spin for drow, Green Ronin's Plot and Poison and Mongoose Publishing's The Ultimate or Complete Book of the Drow. And off and on you will some reference to some of these topics throughout Paizo APs, (Spoilers!) since my personal favorite is the villain's motivation in Legacy of Fire, in which an efreeti uses his wish ability to to turn himself into a fiery spawn of Rovgaug to impress a fire elemental princess he has fallen in love with. The marriage card from the Harrow deck is also a fun encounter for love themes, since it's an efreeti and a marid married that you encounter as a storykin in the Harrowing adventure by Paizo.

Will I back? Most likely, since I have some friends of mine use parts of the BOEF back in the 3.5 days, like the knotbinder of Kaladese, who was the goddess of marriage, or the one class that was essentially a sorcerer/monk hybrid based on beauty etc. They also had a great non-erotic related metamagic prestige class that works great for any setting. It may just be a bit until the rent and car payment are done on Friday of next week.


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The Black Merlin-Dance
Yanis-The Cricket
Headsman-The Peacock and the Rabbit Prince
Io: The Avalance and the Demon's Lantern
Machaera: The Juggler
Corvus: THe Locksmith and the Crows

Past
1 Chaotic Neutral Intelligence-The Vision Arcane Knowledge
2 Chaotic Neutral Strength-The Uprising Overwhelming Groundswell
3 Chaotic Good Strength-The Big Sky Freedom from Bondage

Present
1 Chaotic Evil Constituiton -The Waxworks Helplessness and Entropy
2 Lawful Neutral Charisma- The Marriage Union of Persons or Ideas
3 Lawful Good Intelligence -The Hidden Truth Seeing Past the Obvious

Future
1 Neutral Evil Strength -The Beating Attack from all Sides
2 Neutral Good Dexterity The Cricket Misaligned The journey goes poorly (Yanis another Harrow Point)
3 Lawful Good Dexterity The Dance Misaligned Running in lockstep is perilous. (The Black Merlin gains another Harrow point).


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So Headsman, Io and Corvus get the second card draw. Got it.

Zellara's hands dole out the 9 cards. Here is what you receive {make a note of it because there are additional bonuses past the Harrow points)

The Black Merlin: you receive the Dance. This card represents law and good combined, and is traditionally associated with staying in step, so that the dance and the pattern it creates benefits all

Yanis: You receive the cricket. This card represents altruism for the benefit of all (neutral good). It is associated with travel and a quick mind, with treasure found at the end of a journey via kindness and a fast response to danger.

Headsman: You receive the Peackock as your first card. This card represents beauty frozen in time, or the inability to change quickly (neutrality). It will usually signal some form of a sudden personal shift traditionally.

Your second card is the Rabbit Prince, and this one is extremely fortunate for you. The Rabbit Prince is a quirky fellow who represents the given and take of melee combat {chaotic neutral). He is battle personified, and like luck or fate, given to shows of jealousy and capriciousness.

Io: Your first card is the Avalanche. This card represents the ordered nature of an uncaring disaster (lawful evil). It often represents physical danger or the danger of an uncaring entity, like a crowd or a Starbucks queue.

Your second card is the Demon's Lantern. This card is the card of traps and tricks of the mind (chaotic evil). Traditionally, this card is taken to represent an impossible situation.

Machaera: You receive the Juggler card. This card represents those who play with the lives of others, such as the gods, outsiders, and game show hosts. If the Juggler stays with everything handled, good outcomes will prevail (chaotic good), but if he drops the ball, then it all comes crashing down on him.

Corvus: Your first card is the Locksmith. This card grants the drawer the key to the unlocking of their destiny. However, it doesn't grant knowledge of what or where the lock is to use the key upon [lawful neutral].

Your second card is the Crows. This card represents a violent taking of something that was loved, whether a person, a thing, or even an intagible of life (like getting time back after watching an episode of Friends). When this card appears, be wary of a shocking loss, for the Crows will gather upon you and strip you of something you hold most dear.


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"Then I will perform the Harrowing for you." Zellara pulls out her deck, and beings to shuffle it, pulling out nine cards after several movements of the deck. She is definitely a card sharp if nothing else, as she moves them almost faster then the unaided mortal eye can see.

"We begin the harrowing. These 9 cards are the Choosing, where your desires are recognized by the cards. Following this we will see what the past, the present, and the future hold or have held for you this day."

Ok now for the fun part. For the Choosing, all 6 of you get 1 card each, and then each of you roll off to see who gets to pick another. For the first roll, use a d10-1, while for the second we'll use a d12 and highest roll wins for a second card. Depending on how this plays out, you will get Harrow points that can help you in various situations during each chapter of the adventure both from the Choosing and potentially the 9 card spread depending on how the cards go. I'll determine the 9 card spread since I may have to modify things a bit based on background etc. In this cae, Harrow points will allow you to do the following since this chapter is heavily based on Dexterity use in various ways. A Harrow point can be spent to reroll an init check, Reflex save, attack roll modified by Dexterity, or a Dex based check. You will have to abide by that result, but you can save Harrow points to use them for additional rerolls. A Harrow Point can also be used to add a +1 dodge bonus to your AC for one encounter. You can spend up to 3 Harrow points in this manner to get a max of +3 Dodge AC. Lastly, you can spend 1 Harrow point to increase your based speed by 10 for one encounter. This is an untyped bonus, so if you have things that boost your base speed (longstrider, boots of speed, rocket boots, fear of spiders, anime leap, etc) this will stack.


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Corvus Cator wrote:
Machaera Selanna wrote:

I’m terrible at comics. My father tried, but this falls largely on the “Unsuccessful” side of the list of attempted father/daughter bonding activities. I basically know about Wonder Woman, and that’s more from the cultural history aspect than the actual comics, and Batman, I guess, because he was everywhere when I was a kid, and my brother is fairly into the DC stuff.

So, Wiki to the rescue!

…Huh. Turns out there aren’t that many magic-themed superheroes. DC-wise, maybe Zatanna, with a generous splash of Poison Ivy thrown in, for the mad scientist angle, and because elves are tree-hugging hippies? But overall, I guess, and this works as a canonical Avenger, to stick to one universe - Machaera would be the Scarlet Witch? I can work with that. :)

Dresden from the Dresden files; Molly before gaining the Winter Lady powers.

Dinosaur wraith necromancy for the win!


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Take Me On by Aha. Apparently I am stuck in the 80s.


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Also stirges. Especially vampire stirges.


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Inevitable tax collectors.


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And if you want snow in the US, come to Michigan. We have two penisulas full of it and Canada is right next door.


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a mistress. AC/DC was right...


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Sundakan wrote:
Grognard's Insight sounds like the world's most useless spell.

No that would be Grognard's Evident Disdain.


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The room of pools from in Search of the Unknown B1. Every pool was different from acid to random collections of cats. Another would be the 4 armed gargoyle from Tomb of Horrors.


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1. I hate playing normal race characters. I will go out of my way to avoid playing the big six since I have been almost every iteration of each of them at some point from 1982 on. It's gotten to the point I even suggest to other players that we should all play non big six characters in extended or adopted families. This probably says something about I how I see myself and others.

2. I hate RAW. Really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hate it, and those who use it for everything. That attitude grinds every time I read it on the forums or the Facebook Pathfinder RPG group.

3.I use bizarre spells when I play spellcasters. For example, I will take things like passwall and then use them to make holes in ceilings, and then use rope trick to create a crawl space for my familiar and I to sleep in when playing a wizard. Or raise plants via plant growth as a druid and sing to them while breeding a specific flower, even though IRL I have a thumb of blight.

4.I have now begun to question whether buying all of the 1st and 2nd Ed D&D books and then ogling the illustrations when I was much younger was a really good idea....

5.I enjoy silly character builds way too much. Like the squirrel hurler druid or the ranger with the angry housecat as an animal companion that doesn't get any bigger.

6. I play Rifts.


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Back in my day, wild mages were awesome and weren't relegated into a underwhelming prestige class or obscurity.


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:


No, it's not available to one specific audience that you identify with. PFS is not the base of the game and people who play it really need to stop acting like they're more important than...

PFS is the reason I play Pathfinder at the moment.

Even in the home campaign I was in, a lot of the 'fixes' were not made available *until* it became obvious how woefully under-powered our fighter was in comparison to our party, and even then it was just Stamina (which helped in some cases) but didn't change the 'only the one shtick' aspect of the character.

Thank goodness they had K: Engineering trained, at least!

I am considering joining a mostly CORE campaign.

How would you build a fighter, mostly CORE, and make them skill-viable, non-human, and not an archer (picture front-liner)?

Tactician and Lore Warden are not options in this case.

How Core? Just the main book or main book plus ACG and APG?


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The oven appears have not been used in over 2500 years. Varisia finds nothing.


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Unicorns, medusae, animated dolls, statues, paintings (a celestial animated wall fresco would be pretty intimidating), instruments, gazebos, the sets of good outsiders that are designed to guard beauty (choral angel being one of them), phoenixii, cats, giant and normal sized songbirds (large sized robin anyone as a mount?), any bird of prey, musicians, bards, front men and front women for metal bands, fey, flower/plant creatures, treants (dogwoods, flowering trees, weeping willows, fruit trees) are just some examples for the goddess of beauty. Plus there are also constructs like the one from Cheliax that is a solidified version of an aria drawn from one of their operas or classical music compositions. Conversely if you worshipped Cayden Calien, beer oozes.


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That's because they wanted to make it easy for lower level PCs. Frankly the best conversion for a 2e/1e killer adventure to 3.5 was the one from Dungeon called The Mud Sorcerer's Tomb.


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The easiest way as was previously mentioned, is to use Deities and Demigods and stat them up as divine rank 15 and down, since the common deities are listed as intermediate or greater gods, and no overgod exists on Golarion (that we know of). The Golarion gods book has their level of power built into the notes for the deities.

So, you can use those rules with Pathfinder classes, and then adjust the outside pantheons like the Egyptian (which has equivalents in the 3e Deities and Demigods book) via the same method. Also, d20 Call of Cthulu by Monte Cook has 3.0 stats for most of the Lovecraftian pantheon, so if you need a tougher Cthulu there you go. Probably the last adjustment you want to make is for the gods to have access to mythic versions of spells and powers etc/mythic feats. For by blows and semi-divine offspring/ultimate super servants, use the godling class from Rogue Genius Games.


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There is the archetype that creates a force dagger, or you can go staff magus and use a quarterstaff as a double weapon.


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A 10 ft pole. Yes, I said a 10 ft pole. This is an item that comes in handy wedging open doors, for acrobatics boosts, and as a test unit for devil's mouthes holding spheres of annihilation....


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Interestingly, the movies show that it was a joke as far as they were concerned, since we have female dwarves with no beards running from Smaug as he attacks the Lonely Mountain in the beginning of the Hobbit. Most 2nd Ed to 5th Ed editions of D&D don't have dwarven women with beards, for any number of reasons ranging from eliminating offense, a somewhat common trope, etc. For an awesome example of dwarven women with beards who then shave them and some great stories, check out the Rat Queens comic by Image. Dwarven women start shaving their beards as a protest against traditional male dwarven standards of beauty and it eventually becomes a hipster tradition like man-buns are now. The dwarven smiths also use their younger daughters to model armor they have finished forging, and a bunch of other stuff. It's a great post-modern take on traditional dwarves.


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Yes I am a grognard as are some of the people I play, with, others are 25 to 19. I like both complexity and simplicity in the systems I use, ranging from Red Box Basic in 1982 to AD&D, 2nd Ed, Star Frontiers (which is still the best RPG TSR ever created, sans the switch to the FASERIP system), Marvel Superheroes, Palladium Books (all systems, ALL the time), 3.x, Pathfinder, Paranoia, Fireborn, Deadlands, Space Opera, Mythus, Dark Conspiracy, Twilight 2000, and a host of others. As for rules, I don't care about RAW if it gets in the way of the game being fun. I do get asked about the rules for stuff a lot of the time when we play Pathfinder, but if it doesn't work, then out the door it goes. I love characters that are well developed roleplaying wise, rather then filling some silly role that people still cling to because they can't let go of the mechanical box that they put themselves in. Mechanical builds just for the sake of mechanics is in my eyes nothing more then an exercise in theorycrafting.

The joy of Pathfinder and the d20 system in general is its ability to support roleplaying concepts with good mechanics. I use a lot of third party products and older stuff, especially since I hate to let stuff sit and rot on my shelf. I did get rid of a lot of 1st and 2nd ed things to make room for moving, but PDFs are a nice way to lessen the book load. I also embrace technology for saving time on rules lookups (like 3.5 grappling or 2nd Ed overbearing or Pathfinder cover rules), but I will dump my phone to have some better interaction rather then checking what random cat video or political rant my Facebook friends and family have posted. As for not building things mechanically sound and getting accused of not playing well, blargh on the people who say that. This bad not wrong fun crap doesn't move anything forward.


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Tacticslion wrote:

I'm a super tyrannical GM.

This one time I forced everyone to run an entire party of, like, all noble drow. I'm just, like, the worst. No choice at all. :/

('Cause it was a drow game. And I allowed two non-drow in the game who looked like drow. So... yeah, I forgot my point by now. Weeeeee...)

Heh. I've been in at least three noble drow raise the house in the viewpoint of Lolth games over the years.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Why do so many people deny players the right to play exotic races? It's racism, plain and simple. Anything too far different from the self is rejected out of hand, with no consideration for the quality of the character or player. That, or species'ism. ;)

Two reasons-

1. To avoid someone taking the race for mechanical advantages only. Noble drow are one of the better examples of this.

2. Fear of the exotic race disrupting the GM's story: Some GMs, whether due to fear of change or inexperience, don't like exotic races because it can disrupt their story. Playing the reactions of normal races or even the odd planetouched to things like the plant people from space or four armed insects (ala thri-kreen) etc, adds more complexity to the game.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
An elf goes adventuring for many of the same reasons that regular shorter-lived people go adventuring....

Right. An Elf is a Regular Shorter-Lived Person With Pointy Ears. Got it.

You don't get to play unconvincing kasatha at my table until you can play convincing elves.

Umm, you missed my entire point. All races go adventuring for many of the same reasons. The reasons are either cultural, financial, emotional, or a direct threat to that person's existence or others. For example, in Golarion we have the elves that are raised by other races that are called the Forlorn. Elves of Golarion even states that many adventuring elves are drawn from this group, as these elves follow the shorter lived views of their peer group rather then the long-term take things as it goes view of elves raised amongst their race. So there is one background example of how an elf can be played with a short term viewpoint. However, normal elves are easy to play. It just means the player has to take the long-term viewpoint on solutions to problems, and look at things in patterns via intuition rather then logic. I understand your reluctance to allow non-core races for the roleplaying aspect, but if you never let or help a player with increasing his or her roleplaying ability by allowing them to play a non-core race or even the core races based on an agreement on how the character's background works, then you're going to be stuck with the same six races or even humans as long as you game. If that works for you, more power to you and your players.


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As for playing non-core races, every time I get a chance. Especially non-humanoids. Having played for almost 4 decades, I've played the stock races far too much, from the old standard tropes to things like elven paladins using crossbows and dwarven barbarians dual-wielding longswords. So when you have races like kobolds, goblins, ratfolk, etc available, they fit my style of play better. I especially like the 3rd party supplements and retread of Savage Species that allow you to play monster classes that can also multiclass into the stock classes. Noble Wild, where you play an intelligent talking animal, is another cool change. I've had intelligent lion cubs becoming fighters, purple dragon psionicists, a goblin investigator who piloted a suit of steam-powered medium size armor, dwarven ghosts who were gun-mages from the Iron Kingdoms books, kobold mech pilots, intelligent cat rogues who had opposable thumbs due to a random fey wanting to spread mischief by cursing the entire cat's family line, and even more.

In fact, other systems ENCOURAGE radical race use such as Rifts by Palladium. Dimensional rifts dumping in things from all over the universe into a PA magic-devastated and rich Earth, why be human?


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An elf goes adventuring for many of the same reasons that regular shorter-lived people go adventuring, experience, maturity, the desire to do good, guiding short-lived people to better methods of living by giving them the view and experience of the longer lived races, and new sources of daisies to munch. Do you realize how hard it is to grow daisies under the shade of old growth forests? Or find orcs to kill if you stay in your forest and carve wood all day.


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Jade Regent. The first four paths are far too set on the journey and the caravan system. It was marketed as an exploration of the Dragon Empires, and ended up being tropey as hell (Viking ninjas, opium addicted Chinese spider women, and so on). A better bet would be to lessen the neverending trip across the snow belt and the North Pole, and more material added to Minkai.


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Easy. When you post any build that is sub-optimal or that is driven by roleplaying choices, it causes the build oriented people to go crazy because it's not fulfilling their theory crafting or insistence on specialization as the only way to play.

Also Paladins. Paladins are awesome thematically and mechanically. The issue, I think, is that many people play them as Lawful Stupid rather then Lawful Good. They are a good class to boost your roleplaying skills, especially if you're a moral relativist or only see grey everywhere rather then black and white.

Also agree on Path of War, Psionics, Arcanum (aka akashics), monster classes, core only races (boring as hell. Oh look, it's the seventeenth version of an elven ranger or wizard with a bow, or the dwarf warpriest or half-orc barbarian. PASS!), and not using RAW 100% of the time for any discussion. Oh and animate dead/undead creation not being treated as an evil spell.

Lastly, the fighter and the rogue being subpar, and the summoner being overpowered. None of those have ever been true in any Pathfinder game I have played since the start. Apparently I must be just be lucky.


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Heh. I had the 3.5 version converted over to Pathfinder and we had a guy who played the lead singer of Blind Guardian, Hansi Kursch. He ended up pissing off the gods of metal who killed him with an oslutyh devil, and he was reincarnated from a human to a half-elf to a goblin and then back to a half-elf before being slaughtered in a most heinous way by a weretiger rogue. One of the best characters I have ever run with in a Kingmaker game. We made his great axe into an intelligent electric guitar axe that had flaming invective, so 3 times a day he could sing some verse of Blind Guardian that was so metal it caused his foes to catch on fire.


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Oh, a straight rogue.


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HyperMissingno wrote:
I like how stormcrow completely ignored me saying that the kitsune sorcerer had a good roleplaying hook.

I didn't ignore you. What I said was is that a character build for a rules exploit without any type of roleplaying hook is merely a rules exercise. If you have a decent roleplaying hook and your games support power builds with the other players able to remain competitive via good roleplaying/planning combined with their own power builds, then go for it. But creating a character just to destroy the system or be the super alpha creates a situation in which the GM has to constantly compete with said super player, and it leaves the rest of the group in the dust, especially if they have less rules knowledge or ability to manipulate the system. That's why I call those type of characters a tired build. The other part of my statement was for additional typical builds as per the request of the OP.


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Because they wrote it just to annoy you.


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MannyGoblin wrote:
The place that breaks down is in combat. You can be a very charismatic rogue who wants to reduce risks on a mission, but if you run into a whole tribe of ARBBLAGGHH!BLOODFORTHEBLOODGOD! orks then one can be regretting not getting weapon finesse. The BBEGs at the end of adventures tend to be the uncooperative types so beating them into the dirt is pretty much the only option.

That comes down to a matter of good planning on the part of the PCs and hopefully a GM who allows it, rather then it turning into move the minis across the board wargaming or your latest MMO. Most rogues and other non-crunch characters have built in combat capability in any case (sneak attack, craft alchemy, rogue tricks, and so on) and your charisma based sneak meister (rogue, ninja, bard, investigator, angry expert, slayer, etc) should be going out and baiting the orcs into traps, posing as potential allies, etc. The same thing applies with BBEGs. Once you get into medium to high level mode, UMD with one-shot use items such as potions, 1 charge wands, scrolls, and so on supplement the negotiation and sneak builds without going combat monster only.

The beat stick murder hobo lot gets cut down the same way because they encounter something that they can't kill. That's the way it has been in a lot of the games I have played or ran (especially with deadlier systems then PF), but other people's experiences vary. Not to sound like an old man yelling at kids out on the lawn, but it seems that rolepayers today are moving to either rules-light systems or the never ending theory crafting to get the extra oomph out of XYZ build, without considering the other side to the rules set, making a memorable character through roleplaying. Hence why I regard characters based only on mechanical considerations a "tired build", especially Rage/lance/pounce or many arrow/rapid shot/shoot or battlefield control/blasting/summon spam.


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The best mechanical match is not always the right one. This game isn't about winning or constant success because you figured your super build via 10000 hours of combing every supplement only to find it got nerfed in another supplement. It's about options you enjoy and your fellow players find enjoyable. Also, players pigeonholing you into a role because you play a specific class is silly. Play what you want, and you can have people take a dip in another class to gain class skills or use leadership to fill the holes you might have. The neverending mantra of optimization that pops up in all versions of D&D, even white box basic, is the best example of a tired build.


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All of them; if you're looking at prestige classes as a reflection of your character in a story. The ones specific to Golarion even more so. If it's just for a build, then some of them aren't super in comparison to your archetype single or one or two dip multiclass builds. Frankly to me, looking at a class just for its build possibilities is rather boring in comparison to advancement via story. Theorycrafting gets old quick.

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