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What's the farthest you have gone in d20 tabletop roleplaying? Either in continuous level range, or in campaign completion? (It doesn't have to be Pathfinder necessarily, but should remain within the traditional d20 systems, for shared context.)

What do you attribute to your success or failures?

Despite 30 years of gaming in d20 systems, I’ve only fully completed campaigns in the past eight years. The Emerald Spire was the first, finishing at 14th level if I’m remembering correctly. The success of that was due to most of the players also being GMs, so each of us committed to GMing two or three levels of the super dungeon. Each level was played in one session, so it was easy to rationalize when PCs missed a session that they had just stayed back in town. I missed more gaming sessions than I would have liked, but it was fun overall and the folks who missed would just level up alongside the others using Pathfinder Society open play rules.

The campaign that really made me realize full campaigns were possible as busy adults was a 1e Kingmaker campaign (I’ll follow up with a later post about how that parsed into our current group). We had a group of 8, with one consistent GM who organized the game. Sessions were semi-regular with 1-2 occurring each month if at least 3-4 people could make it. The absences of missing PCs was usually hand waved with some loose tie in to the ongoing plot if possible. That was pretty easy to do in a sandbox campaign. We ended at 17th level with an epic battle using 3D terrain that expanded the final encounter. Lasting five years, including a switch to online during the pandemic, Kingmaker made me rethink why some of my past campaigns had ended early and led me to try again as a GM with a long-term game.

I’m looking forward to seeing the completed review. I was debating whether to even try to save my battle oracle with a rebuild into a new class and have heard the animist is a viable option. Once I get the book and read through it, I might return here for some ideas. Thanks for putting this together.

Hm. That is interesting this takes place on the grounds of the Pathfinder Society. Perhaps foreshadowing there will be some significant Godsrain options for organized play?

If you are interested in third party products, Battlezoo Ancestries: Year of Legends provides the sphinx ancestry. That line of books has a variety of heritages and lots of background information for each ancestry. I’ve used the Battlezoo Ancestries to fill out my reincarnate list in my home game, and am interested in giving them a try as the material seems well-balanced.

Either a bard or a cleric would make good buffers for a team of two. Plus you’ve got strong healing options with either of those.

Welcome to 2E! Glad you enjoyed it despite the rules being so different than PF1. That said, after getting used to the differences of the system, the elegant simplicity of the game compared to 1e is a nice change. If you play with a larger group, another thing that takes getting used to is the reliance on team tactics rather than the monolithic PC power builds of 1e.

I'd really like to try an urban true sandbox where there's no plot to derail if you get on the wrong side of the law, but published adventures don't support that and it is a struggle for many GMs as well.

That would be REALLY interesting. Since we’ve gotten rid of alignment, something like this could support a range of play styles. I’m thinking along the lines of the Kingmaker AP, but set in an urban environment. We’ve already got a massive setting support book in the form of LO: Absalom. With the new three book AP model, surely Paizo could come up with an urban-based sandbox campaign that allows players to be both the subjects of thievery/thuggery and also leaves the door open for more mercenary play.

Nahoa has never seen ice before? Has his power never generated it before? Interesting, but also worrisome. Nahoa seems to be giving in far to much to the divine power his items have given him. Almost as if he's experiencing arrogence from the possessing the power. Could the ice now be a side effect of that?

I think he doesn’t know what hailstones are (I’m not sure about ice specifically) because he’s from a region of the world in Golarion that doesn’t have that type of weather. Paizo’s equivalent to Earth’s Polynesian islands provides a nice background for making characters who haven’t experienced all of what there is in their world.

My battle oracle might take a significant change to make it worthwhile in PFS. He was already ranged, so that might work in my favor. However, following all the bad press, he’s not high on my list for remastering because it might take a notable amount of work to either make him functional as an oracle with the same flavor and style, or get to the point where I realize that it’ll take a completely different rebuild, including class shenanigans.

I have both the old GM screen and the new one, and I think the content on this one is significantly more appropriate for GM use so that I might actually not leave it buried in my closet.

How so? Which of the new content is either better than the old screen, or the old screen doesn't even have on it?

Great story and it really makes me want to give the animist a try! I also like the tie to Book of the Dead, reminding everyone that pre-Remaster content is still valid and not going away.

I’ve been dreading having to rebuild my ranged battle oracle due to the Remaster, but your perspective of leaning into the challenge is inspiring. I’ll be returning to this thread to see what the community says about your rebuild.

Most importantly to this discussion, not all dragons have the Terrifying Presence aura. I love what Paizo has done with dragons, making them less cookie-cutter, tying them to the magical traditions, and providing a diversity of frightening creatures that can fit whatever campaign narrative the GM has in mind! However, assuming that ALL dragons scare the pants off people with a particular aura is demonstrating meta-gaming that I would discourage in my own campaigns. Someone with Recall Knowledge might know that most dragons have that presence, but that’s still a steep RK check.

... It does kind of feel like the Oracle remaster was designed for people who didn't want to play Oracles in the first place, which is certainly an interesting direction.

I respectfully disagree. My first and favorite character of 1e was an oracle of life. I was really looking forward to 2e’s oracle but I haven’t really been interested in playing my battle oracle much because it just doesn’t feel like an oracle. It plays more like a watered down cleric (similar to the critiques of the swashbuckler vs. other martials).

I’m very much looking forward to both of those classes being remastered so I can rebuild my characters—and yes, I’m looking at you too, investigator.

I agree with Henro about a lich with a mortal’s appearance going against the Whispering Way. However, if your Tar-Baphon enjoys manipulating mortals, then he would surely understand the value of using illusion to appear like them when necessary. He would rather show his true form most of the time to convey his power and spread terror in the hearts of the living, but a good illusion can go far towards drawing in the weak-willed with promises of power!

For those of you who have this, what would you say is a significant updgrade from the pre-Remaster GM Screen? Does that make this newer screen a necessary purchase? Thanks!

The base leadership system are purely narrative guidelines, not hard and fast mechanical rules. All it does is give you a representation of how big the PCs can club might be at a baseline. If what you're looking for isn't a narrative backdrop that only comes up during downtime, but instead an NPC who helps during combat, then just think through what that means for balance and story. There's not hard and fast rules around this because there are too many variables.

But there are some rules about this. Your point about many variables - especially when NPCs are built as PCs - is certainly valid. However, Paizo has rules about NPCs in combat as allies of the characters, at least from the perspective of creatures. There's been a lot of complaints about the debuffed summoning in 2E, but that seems to set a reasonable baseline for allowing NPCs in combat. Then the question becomes, "how to make your followers viable without overwhelming the tactical grid?"

One thing that could work is essentially giving every player the Beastmaster (or Familiar Master) Archetype except instead of animal companions they're people. My party kidnapped a kobold at the end of the beginner's box and I made her into a reskinned cat companion (technically I gave them the choice of Trapmaster to represent her making traps for them or Beastmaster, but they chose her as a minion) and the player love her to bits. Just give them the respective Beastmaster feats on the backend and design all the minions yourself as they acquire them, let them swap out if there's more than 1 per player. Best not to let them take normal ACs though, or the maps will get packed.

This seems very promising and was along the lines of what I'd been thinking. However, I had thought the Reanimator or Undead Master archetype would work well for switching out or reskinning minions and making them living NPCs from the leader's organization. Interestingly, the undead master draws on feats from the Beastmaster archetype so that's a good indication that either using one of these or creating my own archetype might work. The upcoming Commander multiclass dedication could have some interesting ideas for poaching as well.

My experience with the leadership subsystem was as a GM encouraging a PC to gather an organization of followers in Extinction Curse. The followers provide a nice information-gathering network but the subsystem is rather boring. The story aspect of it is fun as the bard of the circus has gathered a group of people (including a few in the circus and many outside of it) who align with his religious ideology — the monkey god of Vudra. There hasn’t been any opportunity to highlight the organization yet, except to provide a contact for buying a few rare items in Absalom. I’m trying to figure out other ways to use leadership, hence this thread. Have any people used it outside APs in their home games?

Actually, if you’re talking original APs, then Age of Wyrms is the first. However, a republishing is not going to happen for all the reasons given above.

I'm bummed this is for Awakened Animals and not all of the Howl options! Surely including some Merfolk and Minotaurs wouldn't spoil the fun?

I don’t think they’d spoil the fun, and would definitely add to it!

My awakened animal character would be a wolverine monk who travels with his well-armored minotaur friend. Their favorite opening tactic, if his friend gets a higher initiative, is for the minotaur to use the Friendly Fling feat to get my character into melee range for a claw strike.

It's a good way to crew a ship or infiltrate a community or event.

Yes, that's a very good use of a spreadsheet of NPCs from your organization. That might breathe more details of life into the list of characters, so for certain scenarios or situations that would work. However, that still relegates your noncombatant NPCs to the background.

That being said, those are opportunities I'll look for regarding my one player's organization. Anything to breathe more life into the organization!

Since leadership made it into GM Core, I was hoping it would be fixed to provide a little more fun, with a nod towards what was intended when first created. It was supposed to provide an option for gathering useful allies and creating a PC’s organization. Although it still operates to make an organization, that becomes more a lesson in spreadsheet tedium to document all the lower-level noncombatant NPCs—not what most people want to do in their RPGs. These NPCs, even the higher-level lieutenants, are not strong enough to help the PCs in combat. I am guessing the subsystem was designed to get away from players taking the 1st edition leadership feat so they have an army of followers, thereby unbalancing game play in combat, or allowing an army of scroll and potion creators. However, I think it is possible to have both these things under the subsystem.

I want to see what people’s experience with the leadership subsystem has been. Do you think it needs to be changed or does it work for the needs of your group? How have you used leadership in your game? Do you have ideas of how it should be used? How can it be altered to be more interesting?

As if I wasn’t already looking forward to rebuilding my champion with Player Core 2, this excellent story makes me even more excited about the release. Thanks for a great low level tale! Now that I think about it, we’ll have to rebuild my son’s barbarian as well.

I tried looking up the list of NPCs for this, but could not find anything. I’m assuming it will have a good mix of lower to mid-level NPCs - similar to the Gamemastery Guide. However, I’m also hoping for some higher level NPCs. I know those levels aren’t commonly played, but those stats would be extremely useful for middle-upper and higher level home games.

I can attest the Beginner Box is a great introduction to the game, going far towards laying to rest the myth that Pathfinder is more complicated than that other RPG.

Also, we’ve got a great mom iconic for Pathfinder, why not a dad?

I’ve never really had an interest in rangers for the four decades I’ve been playing these games, until I saw a newbie play a crossbow wielding ranger. Although she is leaving our game because upper level play is too much of a time investment, everyone’s sad to see her go because her damage output often tracked with (or even outpaced depending on die rolls) the barbarian and swashbuckler in the party.

With the gunslinger archetype (or perhaps a gunslinger with ranger archetype), I now see a viable option to play a functional crossbow-based character. As soon as I figure out the optimal damage versus action economy I’ll have a fun character. So no, rangers are not weak - especially if you get creative and play to the classes’ strengths.

The location is very transferable. The small town of Falcon's Hollow is a lumber outpost that could easily be reskinned for a farming or mining community that is near the mountains. It's already inland from Otari, so no problem there. If you're worried about them not having a spellcaster just switch out the inventor NPC with a spellcaster. A warpriest would help a lot, especially in chapter 3.

Hope that helps.

and I found the old 1e adventure, Revenge of the Kobold King. I figured there's kobolds, it's situated near a lumber camp, it'd probably translate pretty well. I was figuring instead of random shadows reanimating the kobolds, I'd make it a few acolytes of the Whispering Way coming into the area and making them their "muscle" to help depopulate the area around Absalom.

Has anyone done a 2e conversion of this adventure, and if so, 1) are the boys still to low level to ride this ride, and 2) any spots in it that will particularly mess up a party with no spellcaster? If point #1 is true, any recommendations on how to proceed?

Crown of the Kobold King is a 2E compilation and update of that adventure and its two related adventures (I think the adventure before and the one after Revenge of the Kobold King that you mention). That might be the easiest place to start. I believe Paizo also added new content that wasn’t in the original trilogy.

R3st8 wrote:

Well I guess that is it folks thanks for the answer, I will have to wait and hope someone makes a pathfinder 1.5 much like pathfinder itself was the answer to 4th edition abandoning 3,5.

Faster than waiting for a new edition, you might contact Pathfinder Infinite (i.e, third party) product developers - see if any of them are interested in producing 1E versions of the 2E scenarios and APs that Paizo is putting out. If there is a user base and thus a market, probably some of them might consider at least a trial run, see how it sells.

Or use the ORC license to reverse engineer a retro version of Pathfinder using the 2E ruleset. Then you have a much larger - and growing - population of fellow gamers. I moved on from first edition primarily because it is sooo much easier to GM in 2E. I can understand the joys of game mastery but I’m not looking back. I would recommend you look forward and, more importantly, do something about it.

…I don't know why this post has a smurf avatar…

Because it’s smurfing delicious!

Sure, They are removed, but most GMs don't run it that way in my experience. I believe there's an assumption they still exist on many levels. The problem with diagonals giving extra space is your first diagonal counts as 5 feet, and therefore can't be extra space. Seems there is room for clarity if the intent is otherwise.

Yes, for counting movement that works. However, to get into the second diagonal it’s 10 feet of movement. Therefore from one corner of the first square to the farthest corner of the second you’ve got 15 feet. That’s why calling each square 7.5 feet corner to corner makes some sense. At least that’s how I was reading Castillano’s post.

Correct that “hard corners” have been removed from 2E. Search the Core rulebooks if curious. I’m of the mindset that diagonals create that extra space of 7 feet which gets rid of the realistic problem through game abstraction.

Hmmm. A large theater for the upcoming AP? That will be very nice if it’s going to be used multiple times. I would like to see images of the maps to see if they’ll be closer or much different than others that I already have (especially the inn). Is Paizo still posting images of maps under the specific product?

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Now the important question:

Was it Rye, pumpernickel, hardtack, or some dried out ol' loaf someone had been keeping in their extradimensional storage space for years?

Any way you slice it, that is indeed an important question!

Another important question, what will happen to game balance if 1st level characters get access to bread?

I thought hardtack was Item 0. I’m not sure what level those others are, so they must be in rule book that I don’t own. I bet that rye is at least Item 4.

Travelling Sasha wrote:

What part of the game did you unexpectedly like?

The end.

Groetus? Wasn’t he around in 1e?

I’ve used the Harrow deck as a reading to foreshadow future events. It was a set up reading rather than random, so the alignment issue really didn’t come into it.

These posts are a good prompt / reminder for me to sit down and recreate my PFS pre-remaster witch. It sounds like there were a lot of improvements and now witches are more reliable at lower levels.

Just chiming in to say, what you're asking for is definitely a Rahadoum setting book, not something that would go in Divine Mysteries.

But, just to rattle off some answers...

- "Moral neutrality" isn't something that's gonna be covered much going forward, since alignment is being dropped.

Mostly, I'm looking forward to getting access to domain spells without needing to deal with the hassle of Cleric or Champion...

By ‘moral neutrality’ I did NOT mean in the sense of the archaic alignment system of gaming systems of yore. I meant it from the perspective of a literal reading of the words. (This is one reason I’m glad we’re moving past the old ways, but it’s going to clearly take a new generation of gamers until that’s not the first thing that prrople think about in reference to those terms.) Morality is simply thinking about yourself more so than others, or commit yourself to something larger than yourself with similar orientations.

The Lady of Graves’ minions are dedicated to confirming the process of judgment on mortal souls and the delivery of soul stuff to its proper location. That is a morally neutral stance. Similarly, the Laws of Man are uncommitted to the deific battle for belief and consequently souls. If Paizo wants to truly move past the archaic alignment system, they need to provide interesting options for their dieties who follow this line of thinking, which also has implications for other parts of the setting.

Fantastic post, and I look forward to the next 9 revelations! This is a great boon for home games as people can take it or not, allowing the development of this (or ten other possibilities) to drive the story and character arcs.

However, I'm curious as to what this means for Pathfinder Society (PFS) characters. I'm very excited about the remaster cleric and am planning a new PFS PC to revisit my favorite class. Now I am hesitant to make him. Will any affected PFS characters be able to rebuild for free after this campaign-shaking event plays out in Golarion?

Although, there is a little solution past 1st level, as some of the older 1xp quests were replayable, including 1 in the 3-6 tier, and there are also 4 3rd level quests.

Thanks! It looks like there are a couple in the the 3-6 tier, which is perfect. Quest #7: A Curious Claim or Quest #9: Wayfinder Origins will work. I'll have propose GMing those at a local store.

After discussion with our local VC, I'm a bit baffled and not sure I understand how the application of experience works with bounties and quests. If you play a pregenerated character at a table for a bounty, can't you apply that experience to a higher level character of your own, using your character's level for appropriate treasure? If not, then your character can be stuck at an odd experience amount if they played three bounties in games at 1st level, and then played in other games and leveled up before getting that 1 XP from a fourth bounty. Your character is then always stuck at 1 XP less than leveling up if you can't play a pregen for a low level bounty or quest to apply as catchup to the 4 XP per scenario standard.

Although I usually use milestone leveling, I generally say they need a full night’s rest before they can level. The assumption is that they’ve been incrementally working on new battle actions, trying new magical formulas (not necessarily literal alchemist formulas), researching things related to their class, etc. At a certain point all that training results in everything clicking and the PC waking up refreshed with some new tricks. I’ve allowed that to happen in dungeons or the middle of outdoor exploration - whatever works for the campaign.

I hope there are some pantheons listed in Divine Mysteries as well. It would be nice to have options for my new cleric that aren't necessarily constrained by one deity.

After seeing a thread about how this upcoming book could positively build from Gods & Magic, I was reminded of something that's been bothering me since the early 2E books were released. Simply put, in a world that is so suffused with deities (including some that have ascended from mortals!), we should have more resources on those people who don't believe in the gods' divinity. This is a uniquely Golarion dynamic, especially since there is a nation, Rahadoum, built on the Laws of Mortality. These laws renounce the gods' divine mandate, and would not exist without the real presence of accessible deities.

I don't mean to use Rahadoum as a knee-jerk reaction against the gods, but rather it would be fascinating to explore the nuance that occurs when people acknowledge divine beings exist, but refuse to worship them as deities. What does a culture that grows from the roots of spurning the divine magical tradition look like? Sure, the Gods & Magic book gave us one page on the Laws of Mortality that described the Pure Legion, whose adherents move to extreme rejection of gods. But I'm thinking about the less severe approaches to the Laws of Mortality.

For example, do all believers in the Laws of Mortality reject divine healing magic? If so, that cuts out a _lot_ of PCs who might be traveling in diverse adventuring parties (e.g., the Pathfinder Society specifically).

Furthermore, is there a monk philosophy that elevates the mind and body without a spiritual focus? Although this could already be made with the current rules, how might that tradition be different than others on Golarion when started during the Oath Wars?

What about those citizens who leave or dwell on the margins of Rahadoum? How does culture impact their interactions with others? I imagine a sophist archetype who understands the rhetoric and power of the divine, thereby using/poaching it from a variety of gods to fuel their own magic or power. Not necessarily cannibalizing it (and thereby making themselves a threat to organized religions), but just acknowledging it and using it for their own non-divine purposes.

Also, is there a venn diagram where atheists in Rahadoum and Pharasma's moral neutrality overlap, as alluded to in Gods & Magic? What does that look like if it's not worship or use of the divine magical tradition?

I'd like to see a little more on this, and some crunch for character options. What about you? Is there anything you would like to see in the upcoming Divine Mysteries that we're currently lacking?

It's gotta be an urbane bard. I'm envisioning a thespian playwright similar to Shakespeare, but with whatever roleplaying angle you want to take them in. He could be both support for his personal "troupe" and sharp of wit with his enemies - enough to take the wind out of their sails (and penalize them with debuffs).

I'd like to see a mythic archetype that is focused on passing the Starstone test. I'm guessing there are a few demigods in Absalom hoping to gain godhood. That could provide a very unique spin on the city and would likely encourage me to use the Lost Omens guide to the Absalom.

keftiu, I totally agree about the hero-gods!

Doesn’t an Age of Ashes books visit one of the other planets?

I agree that the tone of Starfinder is much different, and I would rather have a dark fantasy setting with sci-fi elements sprinkled in than a straight up science fiction and added swords.

Lots of good things to think about as I decide if I want to rebuild my PFS monk post-remaster. Thanks for the insightful comments!

Now that the Remaster is out, I searched Paizo's site to see if their new sheets had been made available for download and printing. I couldn't find new sheets. Does anyone know if they'll be providing digital copies as they have in the past?

I'm assuming we'll have a character sheet pack released after Player Core 2 comes out next year. In the meantime, I'm hoping they'll at least offer the basic sheet as a download. Thanks!

I’m getting ready to rebuild my witch for PFS, so will return to this thread once that is done. Yes, part of the challenge/benefit of the Remaster is that previous spells can still be used unless they are banned for some reason.