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I know everyone is sick of Mystic Theurge early entry tricks, but I would really like to challenge myself to see if I can build a Charisma-based Kitsune Mystic Theurge from an Oracle and Sorcerer, with early entry at 4th level.
We all know that to qualify to become a Mystic Theurge a character must fulfill all the following criteria:
* Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks.
* Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.
So, here are my questions at this point:
1). There are posts out there that state the Kitsune's Change Shape Racial Trait fulfills the '2nd-level arcane spells' requirement. Can someone clarify as to if this is true for PFS?
2). Is anyone aware of any Oracle Mysteries or Revelations that grant a spell-like ability that counts for the '2nd-level divine spells' requirement?
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I think all of the Kitsune early-entry posts I'm reading out there aren't PFS legal... I see what you are saying Thren, but there is an exception to that point... the Aasimar/Tiefling who has Pyrotechnics, which of course states that it is 'gained as a spell-like ability'.
I'm starting to look at the possibilities of doing it through Feats or Oracle and Sorcerer - much like people do with Cleric's of the Trickery domain getting Copycat and it counting towards the '2nd-level divine spells' requirement - but if you think of anything, please let me know :)
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Realistic Likeness just expands the capabilities of change shape, to recreate other humans. Sorry.
As per point two, see here
Unfortunately, that post has been superseded.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Also, if you took the Magical Tail feat 3 times, you would have an arcane spell-like of second level, however that would take up every feat you get from 1-5.
I never thought of using Magical Tail for PrC entry. Suddenly my mind is spinning with (probably terrible) kitsune Dragon Disciple ideas...
It needs to be a (Sp), a (Su) doesn't qualify. The FAQ just says that any (Sp) that acts like a spell will count as being able to cast that spell for prereqs.
Although I'm curious as to whether or not taking the Coven hex on a Witch then joining a coven with 2 other Hags (or witches who also take the Coven hex, then moving within 10 feet of each other) qualifies. My guess is no since it relies on two other people (and it only gives you level 3 Arcanes for the purposes of early entry).
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I know everyone is sick of Mystic Theurge early entry tricks, but I would really like to challenge myself to see if I can build a Charisma-based Kitsune Mystic Theurge from an Oracle and Sorcerer, with early entry at 4th level.
We all know that to qualify to become a Mystic Theurge a character must fulfill all the following criteria:
* Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks.
* Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.So, here are my questions at this point:
1). There are posts out there that state the Kitsune's Change Shape Racial Trait fulfills the '2nd-level arcane spells' requirement. Can someone clarify as to if this is true for PFS?
2). Is anyone aware of any Oracle Mysteries or Revelations that grant a spell-like ability that counts for the '2nd-level divine spells' requirement?
If you're looking for more tricks and ideas, you should check out My guide to the mystic theurge.
1) Unfortunately, Change Chape is a Supernatural ability, as has already been pointed out elsewhere in this thread. Therefore, it does not qualify for early entry. Realistic Likeness, unfortunately just alters this trait's qualities, rather than making it spell-like, so it won't allow it to qualify either. You can use Magical Tail to qualify, but only if you take the feat three times, at minimum. At that rate, I would generally recommend taking four levels of sorcerer to qualify on the arcane side, and using divine early entry to qualify on the divine side.
2) The Wood mystery revelations Bend the Grain and Tree Form will both qualify you. If the wood mystery isn't really your style, you can take Believer's Boon, which will get you the first level domain power of any cleric domain. That will get you access to the copycat ability of the Trickery Domain or the Augury ability of the Fate Inquisition, both of which can get you early entry for your divine spellcasting requirement in one feat.
Do you have any more ideas on how you want to refine this character? There are lots of tricks for getting into and about mystic theurge, and I've been writing notes on this subject for several months now, so I may be able to help further. That reminds me that I have to actually post all of the edits I made over the holidays...
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Thanks a lot Angry Wiggles. My thought is just to get in with as early entry as possible, which would be to take a level of MT at 4. As you pointed out it's very easy to meet the ranks by level 3, and the divine spell requirements, but for a Kitsune Sorcerer I'm not seeing a quick way to meet the arcane requirement. I would think a bloodline ability or just taking one feat could get you the qualifier for arcane casting, but I'm still looking into what's possible.
Doing it through Kitsune can give you a DC20 on you enchantment compulsion spells at level 1 (20 Charisma, Kitsune Magic, Spell Focus, and Mediator) so combining an Oracle and a Sorcerer's enchantment compulsion spells - Sleep, Command, etc - would be epic fun to play!
That are my only thoughts so far :)
Thanks a lot Angry Wiggles. My thought is just to get in with as early entry as possible, which would be to take a level of MT at 4. As you pointed out it's very easy to meet the ranks by level 3, and the divine spell requirements, but for a Kitsune Sorcerer I'm not seeing a quick way to meet the arcane requirement. I would think a bloodline ability or just taking one feat could get you the qualifier for arcane casting, but I'm still looking into what's possible.
Doing it through Kitsune can give you a DC20 on you enchantment compulsion spells at level 1 (20 Charisma, Kitsune Magic, Spell Focus, and Mediator) so combining an Oracle and a Sorcerer's enchantment compulsion spells - Sleep, Command, etc - would be epic fun to play!
That are my only thoughts so far :)
Unfortunately bloodline abilities rarely reference specific spells of second level, so while they are spell like abilities that appear to be in line with approximately second level spells, they can't count as second level spells for the purposes of qualification unless they explicitly say so. It is far too debatable for PFS. The only consistent arcane route for early entry that I have seen is racial spell like abilities. Fortunately, we have a lot of options there, even in PFS. Unfortunately, Kitsune is not one of those.
Tengu actually have the best route to early entry for PFS at the moment, with the Long Nose form racial feat qualifying them for arcane early entry. Humans, and by extension half-elves and half-orcs, can get it via racial heritage, but it's far more expensive for them. Aasimar and Tiefling have a wealth of options that have unfortunately been recently banned, and most other early entry races that I have seen are either charity auction boons or simply banned. For most PFS theurges, the best route seems to be either Tengu or leveling their arcane class to second level spells normally, and then entering their divine class.
That DC20 at level one is awfully impressive, and would certainly be a shame to lose. The single stat casting is a real temptation to be sure. You may be able to get something approaching it with tengu, using empyreal blooded sorcerer and cleric, but you would be casting off of wisdom rather than charisma. It's not precisely what you wanted, but it is an idea. It would get you into mystic theurge at level 4, and you would have access to all of the same spells. You would unfortunately lose out on the choice to take the bloodlines that open up other creatures to be vulnerable to your mind-affecting spells, though.
I'll acknowledge that I'm not done poring over the campaign setting and player companion books yet, but I've not found another shortcut yet. I will add it to the guide the very moment that I have found it.
Alright, so you need the ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells in order to get into this class. If you're intent on going oracle / sorcerer, then my best advice for you is to do Oracle 4 / Sorcerer 1 to access the class at Level 6. You will also need to select the Magical Tail feat three times, so you unlock misdirection as a spell-like ability. As a 2nd-level spell, misdirection meets your "able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells" prerequisite while 4th level oracle will meet your "able to cast 2nd-level divine spells" prerequisite. You want a level of sorcerer to stack your mystic theurge levels to before you go in, too.
Doing this is a bit rough, as you need to dedicate all of your feats to going Mystic Theurge before you can get into the class. Your arcane spellcasting will also be two levels behind that of a typical sorcerer, for a total of three levels behind. Ultimately, you should view yourself as a divine caster first with a small number of sorcerer tricks to back you up. I would also pick a bloodline with an arcana that supplements your role as a divine caster.
Tengu actually have the best route to early entry for PFS at the moment, with the Long Nose form racial feat qualifying them for arcane early entry. Humans, and by extension half-elves and half-orcs, can get it via racial heritage, but it's far more expensive for them.Unfortunately racial heritage does nothing in PFS as you cannot take race specific abilities without being a member of that race.
That is truly unfortunate.
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Also, if you took the Magical Tail feat 3 times, you would have an arcane spell-like of second level, however that would take up every feat you get from 1-5.I never thought of using Magical Tail for PrC entry. Suddenly my mind is spinning with (probably terrible) kitsune Dragon Disciple ideas...
It probably works best with Arcane Trickster.
Sorcerer1/Rogue 4, then start into the Arcane Trickster. Yes, three feats is expensive, but early entry tends to either be really inflexible or have some kind of cost.
Tengu actually have the best route to early entry for PFS at the moment, with the Long Nose form racial feat qualifying them for arcane early entry. Humans, and by extension half-elves and half-orcs, can get it via racial heritage, but it's far more expensive for them.Unfortunately racial heritage does nothing in PFS as you cannot take race specific abilities without being a member of that race.
You can't take race-specific abilities from the Advanced Race Guide without being that race. If an ability appears in another legal source, you can take it.
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Thanks everyone... so the arcane prerequisite is the early entry problem. If I abandon Kitsune all together - this is going by the link Angry Wiggles shared - he states I can do this the early arcane 2nd level entry with a with a Drow, Duergar, or Half-Elf. Is that correct? If so, what is the spell-like ability that allows a Drow, Duergar, or Half-Elf count as a 2nd level arcane spell?
For Half-Elves is this the Drow Magic Alternate Racial Traits that allow you to cast Darkness? I don't think this is available to PFS.
Sorry, I'm just looking for options for early entry, and it seems like there are not alot that are solely intelligence or charisma based that can let you in at 4.
It needs to be a (Sp), a (Su) doesn't qualify. The FAQ just says that any (Sp) that acts like a spell will count as being able to cast that spell for prereqs.
Wasn't there a ruling that Spell-Like abilities stopped counting for meeting the prerequisites?
I remember everyone using Aasimar's daylight spell as it's a 3rd level spell given to the race as a SLA. I'm having difficulty finding it now but I remember everyone suddenly saying that SLA where ruled as no longer working for qualifying.
Yep, SLA qualification is out and Mystic Theurge is a trap again.