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With the release of the Divine Anthology along with the Divine Fighting Technique of "Densa's shooting star" which allows for CHA to Hit and Damage when attacking with a starknife. The advanced prerequisites for the upgraded ability doesn't really seem useful as the base ability allows for melee or ranged, but the final ability is a full round single attack that can deal 1-4 hits of damage.
As such i was thinking about how to utilize this in a interesting build and was looking for ideas.
So far the main ways i see to capitalize on this:
1. A level dip into oracle with the lore mystery can replace dex with cha for AC and reflex allowing to make dex effectively a dump stat.
2. It has caster stat synergy with Oracle, Bard, Eldritch Scion Magus, Sorcerer, and Paladin.
3. One could get AC bonus with the Scaled Fist monk archetype, though dex can't be a dump stat then as it won't stack with lore oracle.
4. There technically is nothing against using a large or huge for a 1h or 2h variant on the starknife.
The main build ideas I've had are.
1. Eldritch Scion Magus for melee.
2. Arcane Duelist bard for melee.
3. Slayer with a 1 level dip into lore oracle for either melee or ranged TWF build.
4. Swashbuckler/Daring Champion to maximize on Panache.
Any interesting ideas anyone might have would be helpful as I'm uncertain how to fully maximize on this as most ideas i have for this run into problems meeting certain requirements when trying to add anything interesting like feint/two weapon feint.
Tempered Champion/Divine Hunter Paladin.
Tempered Champion/Divine Hunter Paladin.
While i do like the archetypes. I generally avoid paladin in my groups due to the difficulty to play lawful good with the mix of alignments. It ends up just turning the character into the fun police.
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Go with a single level dip into oracle for Cha to AC, then go Daring Champion.
You get to dump int as well (replaced by Cha for feat prereqs) and you get both the Challenge ability as well as stealing Precise Strike from swashbucklers. Pick up the Startoss Style feat chain and beam people with starknives at melee or range.
Go with a single level dip into oracle for Cha to AC, then go Daring Champion.
You get to dump int as well (replaced by Cha for feat prereqs) and you get both the Challenge ability as well as stealing Precise Strike from swashbucklers. Pick up the Startoss Style feat chain and beam people with starknives at melee or range.
I had thought of doing that. I wasn't sure if the switch hitter would work well, but i had forgotten about startoss style and that precise strike works with thrown. Actually re-reading it i didn't realize startoss style doesn't even specify that it needs to be ranged.
I would assume vital strike would probably be beneficial then as it works with startoss and is pretty much the only option if i go the returning property route instead of getting the ricochet feat.
Is there a good order to go with a switch hitter style for this?
I like the idea of a full Cha based Oracle.
Gnome
Str10 Dex7 Con16 Int10 Wis10 Cha20
Lore Mystery
- Sidestep Secret (lvl 2) Cha for AC and reflex saves
- Lore Keeper (lvl 4) Cha for knowledge checks
Haunted Curse
- Standard action to retrieve gear, dropped items land 10ft away
- Gain mage hand and ghost sound to spells known
- Gnome bonus means getting +1/2 to level for purpose of curse. That means getting levitate, minor image, and telekinesis early. It also means in PFS where lvl12 is the limit, you can reverse gravity.
Breadth of Experience
- lvl 1 feat, +2 on all knowledge and profession checks, can make all knowledge and profession checks untrained
Divine Obedience (Irori)
- lvl 3 feat, +4 on all knowledge checks
Equipment
- Heavy Shield (+2 AC)
- Studded Leather (+3 AC, max +5 Cha AC. Eventually upgrade to Mithral Breastplate)
- Total AC of 21
- Spiked Gauntlet (Shield is strapped to your arm, spiked gauntlet is just that, a guantlet. When combat starts you never need to waste a standard action getting your gear out. Also, as you are small, it only drops from 1d4 to 1d3 damage. That isn't a big loss)
Racial
- Darkvision (60ft)
- Academian (+2 to knowledge skill of choice)
--------
* Cha based caster with +5 in his casting stat
* Cha instead of dex for AC and reflex, along with being a gnome, makes you quite tanky. Combine with Con16 for extra tankiness.
* High stats mean good fort and reflex saves, being an oracle means good will saves.
* Cha instead of int for knowledge tests, with divine obedience and breadth of experience lets you take all knowledge tests untrained at +7. This of course goes up to +11 for those that are trained.
* And of course, high Cha means being a great party face.
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Noble Scion feat can give CHA to Init.
Noble Scion feat can give CHA to Init.
Nice! A great choice for the cha oracle build
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I highly suggest going Psychic Searcher oracle, really makes you be awesome at stuff.
The circlet of persuation is a great buy, any d20 roll where CHA is the primary/base stat is boosted. So all you knowledge rolls and your init with noble scion get a +3 bonus!
Dips
The medium class going with the marshal gets a spirit bonus applied on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks, as well as on spirit surge rolls. This allows the bonus to apply twice to the total result if you use a spirit surge on a Charisma check or on a Charisma-based skill check.
and then you can pick up a feat to increase that bonus to a +2
I just maybe might have a character that is Psychic Searcher lore oracle 2 marshal medium 4 with the noble scion feat. ;)
If you didn't want to be stuck with the star knife, you could take 4 levels of fighter for martial versatility, allowing you to use charisma with any weapon in the light blade group. Not sure if worth it. You would get solid HP, a fair amount of feats and BAB from it though, too.
I like the idea of a full Cha based Oracle.
This was an already available option though. The build options you listed don't really utilize much of the melee options presented with the new feat.
That said it does create a humorously strong mixture of a caster-focused cleric-type with an oddly great AC without needing to put on any full plate.
Scaled Fist uMonk w/Crusader's Flurry could be cool.
I had thought of this, but there isn't a huge advantage to this.
1. you end up needing dexterity again as a proper secondary stat as we've given up being able to wear armor.
2. With such a build you have to lose 1 level to multiclass to get channel energy to get a net gain of 1 feat (instead of finesse/grace feats you just pick up the divine training feat.) only to then spend 1 more feat to make flurry of blows work again.
So we're effectively back to where we were in a Dex/Wis build with a weaker Will save, and a loss of class progression and reliance upon 2 stats still. I would love to see a way to optimize it though.
Daring champion option mentioned before has some merit because while we don't really save any feats (because weapon finesse was free anyways) we get a bigger Panache pool and only 1 stat dependency. Too bad the utility doesn't come till 8th level or higher for a lot of the orders that support charisma.
Bard might be 2nd best option because it keeps the casting strong while boosting the melee side. With eldritch scion following in 3rd just because magus loses the ability of thrown weapons for spellstrike and the benefit is less apparent because save DCs aren't very important to a class that boils down to "shocking grasp more!".
So far the best option is Paladin, but that's not all that surprising. Though it seems a bit off for a paladin to have to follow a chaotic good deity to achieve this (from what i can see its technically allowed), because even if it doesn't multiclass, plate armor puts it in a good spot armor-wise and it can hide behind amazing saves and lay on hands uses while also being able to still hit things and damage them.
If you didn't want to be stuck with the star knife, you could take 4 levels of fighter for martial versatility, allowing you to use charisma with any weapon in the light blade group. Not sure if worth it. You would get solid HP, a fair amount of feats and BAB from it though, too.
That opens a few options but not much. We can upgrade the damage dice or take advantage of the overlap between the close weapon group, which can be used with brawler.... but we might be a bit spread across classes then as 4 levels fighter (or something that counts as fighter for levels), and possibly 1 level of oracle. Going full fighter might be ok, but outside of saving 1 feat, there's not much else fighter can benefit from a full charisma build.
Not quite true. The old and new divine fighting techniques have different requirements. New one requires Desna be your sole patron deity, so that means within one step of CG. There's a Paladin archetype that allows to to be NG, but it requires your patron to still be within one step of LG.
I highly suggest going Psychic Searcher oracle, really makes you be awesome at stuff.
The circlet of persuation is a great buy, any d20 roll where CHA is the primary/base stat is boosted. So all you knowledge rolls and your init with noble scion get a +3 bonus!
-snip-
Ah, I think that interpretation is a little off. Initiative isn't a dexterity check, and Noble Scion (war) doesn't make it a cha check.
Circlet of Persuasion specifically says it adds +3 to Cha checks and cha based skill checks.
That would include skill checks, and raw Cha checks.
Cha to attack? Still not a charisma check*.
Cha to init? Still not a charisma check*.
Cha to caster level? Still not a charisma check*.
*or a charisma based skill check.
From what I understand, the Circlet of Persuasion applies iff the check is
A; a skill(cha) check
or
b; a raw cha check.
No other circumstances.
You guys have it all wrong while lore oracle is good what you really want is nature oracle cha to ac and cmd and if you take the fenetic curse you can get your cha to reflex saves plus you get to roll your initiative 2-3 times every time sure you can't take a 10 and when you take a 20 it's 2 less but I feel it's well worth it especially if your just dipping
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Ah, I think that interpretation is a little off. Initiative isn't a dexterity check, and Noble Scion (war) doesn't make it a cha check.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/combat.html
"At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check."Though I agree the Circlet of Persuasion on Noble Scion (War) is a bad type of cheesy.
Yea that's pretty rules lawery.... Your gonna get some heat if you argue this at the table
Ah, I think that interpretation is a little off. Initiative isn't a dexterity check, and Noble Scion (war) doesn't make it a cha check.http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/combat.html
"At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check."Though I agree the Circlet of Persuasion on Noble Scion (War) is a bad type of cheesy.
Oh boy. I thought there was a big stink around the mythic Display of Dexterity ability (+20 to a dex check) where it was ruled initiative wasn't a dex check. Looks like initiative is a dex check.
Cheesy as hell to stack mods on it, but RAW is RAW. I'll need to let my players know.