Why play a first world summoner?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Don't get me wrong, I always put role playing ahead of optimizing. But I see literally no advantage gained by the first world summoner. I want it to be mechanically not a terrible choice, but the eidolon hit points and base attack are basically halved, it loses Darkvision for low-light vision, and you get SNA instead if summon monster. I see nothing gained other than flavor, and I think that's unfair for people who would want to play this for role playing reason (i.e. me).


Druid, then?

Liberty's Edge

The First Worlder is a terrible archetype. It's a great idea, but poor execution, one of a handful of archetypes that I would like a full rewrite. As you mentioned the eidolon takes a huge hit, and losing Summon Monster for Summon Nature's Ally robs you of all animals with planar traits for a handful of unique creatures (and not a single outsider). In addition, it replaces the DR/alignment evolution with DR/cold iron while charging the same cost.

If someone wanted to play a Summoner with strong First World connections, I too would tell them to play a Druid. Or just allow them to take a feat that adds Summon Nature's Ally to their lists.


There is no reason. Unless you're the kind of person that thinks rogues are the only people that can act like rogues.

Sovereign Court

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Perfectly viable for a summoner who doesn't really give a darn about their silly eidolon. They do exist.


It's terrible, since it basically weakens you in every dimension in exchange for jack squat, but it does turn your SNA IV+ spells into healing spells, since the unicorn can heal. If I'm not mistaken, ordinary summoners don't get a healing summon until SM IV, with the Lillend. That's pretty small recompense, especially since summoners can use CLW wands just fine by that level, but it's something. (It's also possible to angle it so that the healing is basically free, if you summon the unicorn before a fight, have it heal people up, and then enter combat with it by your side. It's a perfectly reasonable combatant, or even mount.)


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I think you can make a case for the First World Summoner's version of SNA being better than the regular summon monster, with the addition of those new creatures.

The gremlins can be awful nasty if you look at what they can do. And I mean nasty. They can ruin a dm's day without even doing anything other than just being around.

They totally gimped the eidolon though.

If this was a Master Summoner with a different spell list I'd say it was as good as any summoner variant, maybe stronger.

But since it is basically just a regular summonver with these changes made, it is one of the worse archetypes for this class.

Still better than a Broodmaster. Other than a squad of guys with wands I don't know what you are supposed to do with that one.


Looking at it I do not think it is a bad archetype. What I see:


  • Nature allies can have neutral alignment, meaning they will not be stopped by magic circle against good or such.
  • The extra fey creatures are really nice!
  • The extra summoning feats (starlight/sunlight/moonlight summons) for SNA really improve the critters. Since they do not cost you extra spells slots, they will automatically power up all your critters compared to the summon monster counterparts.
  • I did not check into it, but I believe SNA's critters often have more hit die than the SMA, meaning augement summoning will improve them stronger than their monster counterparts.
  • Note that you *may* select the DR/cold iron reduction for the eidolon, you can keep the alignment based DR.
  • Since the eidolon is not an outsider, you could resurrect it and use other spells on them.

So it is not so bad IMO :-)


You know, I was going to post about the summoning feats that apply to these guys.

But sangalor beat me too it!

One of the complaints leveled against the summoning spells are that they have to deal with DR. Guess what Starlight/moonlight/sunlight spells do? Let you bypass a lot of those issues.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jackissocool wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I always put role playing ahead of optimizing. But I see literally no advantage gained by the first world summoner. I want it to be mechanically not a terrible choice, but the eidolon hit points and base attack are basically halved, it loses Darkvision for low-light vision, and you get SNA instead if summon monster. I see nothing gained other than flavor, and I think that's unfair for people who would want to play this for role playing reason (i.e. me).

Archetypes are NOT supposed to be advantageous over another. They represent tradeoffs and choices. A First World Summoner is going to be more focused on SLAs and spellcasting. It's not a summoner that's going to go the Pokeman master approach that folks seem to be fixated on. The additions to the SNA abilities are worth noting. Also keep in mind that the Summon Monster spells are still learnable.


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Pugwampi!


Heck and the bless spell will help from the cleric so you do not take the penalties.

Liberty's Edge

doctor_wu wrote:
Heck and the bless spell will help from the cleric so you do not take the penalties.

You mean prayer dont you, cause you need a luck bonus to counter them

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
jjaamm wrote:
doctor_wu wrote:
Heck and the bless spell will help from the cleric so you do not take the penalties.
You mean prayer dont you, cause you need a luck bonus to counter them

I'd like to point out, while they lose their Summon Monster SLA for the Summon Nature's Ally SLA, they don't technically "lose" the Summon Monster spells from their spell list. That coupled with some of the mid level creatures from summon nature's ally (cyclops is one that was pointed out to me) is a nice collection of creatures you can use. Definitely a way I'd go if I wanted a touch more versatility.

Lantern Lodge

Unicorns! - First World Summoner is one of the easiest way to get them summoned.


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First world problems...


6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

A question about the Summon Nature's Ally Ability of the First Worlder archetype:

Summon Nature’s Ally (Sp):
Summon Nature’s Ally (Sp)
Starting at 1st level, a first worlder can cast summon nature’s ally a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. At levels where a summoner would gain a more powerful summon monster spell as a spell-like ability, he instead gains the equivalent summon nature’s ally spell (at 19th level, he can use summon nature’s ally IX or gate). When a first worlder gains a summon nature’s ally spell as a spell-like ability, he adds it to his class spell list (he must still select it as a spell known if he wants to cast it as an actual spell).

This ability otherwise replaces the summon monster ability of a normal summoner.

As this ability replaces the original summon ability and the description does not say it can't be used while the fey eidlon is summoned, the First Worlder Summoner is able to use is Summon Nature Ally Ability while his Fey-Eidlon is summoned.

Do I understand this correctly or do I miss something? In case the above is true, I think this archetype is incredible good!


Adelain wrote:
As this ability replaces the original summon ability and the description does not say it can't be used while the fey eidlon is summoned, the First Worlder Summoner is able to use is Summon Nature Ally Ability while his Fey-Eidlon is summoned.

Reasonably clear intent > semantics.

The PF devs don't write to rules lawyer standard. I think they ought to hire somebody who did, but it's an indisputable fact that they don't.

Given that the missing paragraph is either a small oversight or a huge change implied but not explicitly stated, oversight is the safe assumption.

Especially given the semantically meaningless "otherwise" in "this ability otherwise replaces".


Does anybody know how the logic of summon nature's ally ability (of the first worlder summoner) is treated in Pathfinder Society Organized Play?


I thought for sure that summoners werent allowed in society play period. I don't keep up to date on such things though since I like summoners and crafting so I stay away from society play like the plague...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Vanilla Summoner is PFS legal if I remember correctly. Pretty much all of the Archetypes are not, but the Vanilla Summoner is.


Very few situations where the first worlder would be a better archetype.

1st, advantages of the class (in no order)

-Very Expanded list of Eidolon Class skills
-Access to non-aligned Damage Reduction
-Not an outsider (This is good if opponents or allies have strong abilities against outsiders specifically).
-Fixed good will and reflex (No change for serpentine, but affects others)
-Summoned Nature's ally creature list (if these appeal more...)

Disadvantages
-Lower Base HD.
-Reduced BAB.
-Fey (This is bad if opponents or allies have strong abilities against fey specifically).
-Fixed Bad Fort (No change for serpentine, but affects others)
-Summoned Nature's ally creature list (if these appeal less...)

2nd, What this means.

Expanded class skills adds potential for a high Int eidolon, or just a dedicated aid-action eidolon.

The outsider-fey switch up seems like it would depend on the party and campaign more than anything. I will note that anti-outsider builds and archetypes seem much more common than anti-fey builds and archetypes. You are also switching the Knowledge skill that an opponent would need to learn about your eidolon (Nature instead of planes).

Fixed saves do two things. First, you could use to spam a particular save, like reflex, on a bipedal eidolon. The other option, would be to increase Con, which would make a more rounded eidolon, as you'd increase your fort - this would also increase your HP, which would remove some or all of the loss from the lowered die type. I will note that reflex is the save that goes with our eidolon Evasion ability and will is the save that is very commonly required for spells that remove extraplanar enemies from this plane (like dismissal). Having these as fixed saves is not a weak point for the eidolon.

Lowered die size. Not good for tank and DPS eidolons, no real loss if the eidolon is designed for a less combat role (like healing). Technially, the loss is 2 HP per HD (assuming the non-rolling method). If you go with the increased Con, as suggested for a more rounded character, you can regain this HP loss for 2 evolution points and the free ability increase at 5th level. I do think the lowered die size isn't really that bad as a penalty, as the stock eidolon already has less HD than an animal companion. I think if looking for HP soaking pets, the summoner really isn't your class...

Reduced BAB. This is a bad thing, no question. Granted, if eidolon isn't designed for a combat role, like with a focus on non-attack spells or skills, you might not notice the loss.

Expanded Summons of nature's ally and switching of summoned nature's ally from summoned monster. Huge difference in list of summon-able creatures. I will note that both the unicorn and Nymph have access to cure spells, so there is some very solid potential for a summoner with a healing role. Maximized level 6 summon natures ally for 5 unicorns (6 with superior summoning), each with 3 uses of cure light and one cure moderate - that's a pretty impressive curing ability.

3rd, summary. I think the First World Summoner is a dedicated Healer/Support caster with a healer/support eidolon.

4th, Combinations. The Oread Shaitan Binder Archetype fits perfectly with this one. Buff charisma, then get eidolon with free magic evolutions to get cure spells. Makes for a Healer summoner. The -2 racial Cha isn't as devastating if going a healer route, as your spells are less likely to meet resistance. I will suggest a small eidolon, as the bonus AC and attack rolls will very much aid the fey eidolon.


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*attempts to turn thread*

"Back ye unholy, wretched dead thing! This language is dead and so are you! Know this and begone!"


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Pupsocket wrote:


Reasonably clear intent > semantics.

The PF devs don't write to rules lawyer standard. I think they ought to hire somebody who did, but it's an indisputable fact that they don't.

I really dont want a CRB that is 12" thick and costs $400, thankyouverymuch.


Jackissocool wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I always put role playing ahead of optimizing. But I see literally no advantage gained by the first world summoner. I want it to be mechanically not a terrible choice, but the eidolon hit points and base attack are basically halved, it loses Darkvision for low-light vision, and you get SNA instead if summon monster. I see nothing gained other than flavor, and I think that's unfair for people who would want to play this for role playing reason (i.e. me).

Someone necro'd this thread pretty hard, but I've seen people like JJ and a straight reading of the archetypes says that you can have both your eidolon out AND any number of SLAs summons out.

So even though you are weaker in both aspects, being able to use both at once is pretty impressive.


I suppose the big gain is that unicorn, which you can summon 1d4+1 with a 6th level version. This buffs from superior summons to 1d4+1 and can further be bolstered by a maximized rod to summon 6 of them with a single use. The limitation on summons pertains to uses of the summoned spell, not to how many creatures are summoned with it.

The summon good monster feat allows a unicorn at SNA5, instead of the SNA4 via this archetype. This archetype also doesn't require a good alignment, and the alignment becomes yours, so you could potentially summon evil alignment unicorns with this archetype.


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Why play first world summoner? Because I feel like it.


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E-G wrote:
Pugwampi!

THIS.

Or the more accurate term: "45' circle of No Save, AoE Misfortune Hex with an ugly little face".

Pugwampis have a 20' radius unluck aura that forces everyone to reroll d20s (so attacks, skills, SAVES). It makes enemy attacks suck, and leaves them in a prime position to fall to a SoS wizard. And there is also an extremely specific way to avoid friendly fire with it- get a luck bonus (or be an animal, I guess). So half orcs and anyone with a luck stone or prayer spell on (wizard might not need the luck though, since he will be throwing SoS saves where others must do the rolling).

Pugwampis are also on the summon nature's ally II list for this, so that means you can summon multiple of them fair early. Cover the entire battlefield with pugwampis.

What? They are completely weak and only have 6 base hp? No problem. You should not think of them as combatants. They are merely nodes for a wide area debuff spell....that have the ability to do things like flank as well as weak but advantageous actions like aid other.

And since the best way to use them is to spread them everywhere, that means that enemies that try to get rid of them have to split up and waste time chasing them down. That is time that your party can spend taking them out 1 by 1. Either they suffer the unluck aura, or they get divided and conquered.

Overall, it makes your summoner a 1 trick pony version of the witch...but it is a fairly good trick that requires fairly specific conditions to avoid. Your GM is either going to cry and always take out 2 d20s, or he is going to give out luckstones like candy.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
First world problems...

I think I beat you to that one by a few months....

Shadow Lodge

Don't forget the humble Vexgit...
They're not combat super-stars, but they can do some serious damage. You can destroy a great deal of iron/iron alloy with a few castings of SNAII. There's a lot of problems that can be solved by those little guys.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

As others have mentioned, you can summon Pugwampi if you hate the game.


Petty Alchemy wrote:
As others have mentioned, you can summon Pugwampi if you hate the game.

No no. If you hate your GM.


Also most of your party.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jackissocool wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I always put role playing ahead of optimizing. But I see literally no advantage gained by the first world summoner. I want it to be mechanically not a terrible choice, but the eidolon hit points and base attack are basically halved, it loses Darkvision for low-light vision, and you get SNA instead if summon monster. I see nothing gained other than flavor, and I think that's unfair for people who would want to play this for role playing reason (i.e. me).

An Archetype is not about gaining advantage, it's about taking a different road for flavor and character reasons.

A First World Summoner since he's not using Summon Monster CAN use his eidolon and SNAs at the same time. What he SHOULD be doing is using his eidolon differently as opposed to the brute monster most summoners go for.


Hot damn, good eye noticing that. It actually brings this formerly-thought-to-be-useless archetype back up to interesting. I have to see if it's worth actually playing...


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Sangalor wrote:
  • Since the eidolon is not an outsider, you could resurrect it and use other spells on them.
  • Resurrect an eidolon? That is a rather expensive thing to do with something that is merely banished for 24 hours when it is killed.

    As for other spells -- see the Share Spells ability. You can already cast spells like Enlarge Person on your eidolon regardless of whether it is an outsider or a fey.


    With all the brainstorming in this thread, this archetype just got a LOT more interesting! I don't mind the necro of this thread at all.
    Can the Starlight/Moonlight/Sunlight Summons stack? Can summoned creatures have 2 or all 3 of them active at once?

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    paxmiles wrote:

    I suppose the big gain is that unicorn, which you can summon 1d4+1 with a 6th level version. This buffs from superior summons to 1d4+1 and can further be bolstered by a maximized rod to summon 6 of them with a single use. The limitation on summons pertains to uses of the summoned spell, not to how many creatures are summoned with it.

    The summon good monster feat allows a unicorn at SNA5, instead of the SNA4 via this archetype. This archetype also doesn't require a good alignment, and the alignment becomes yours, so you could potentially summon evil alignment unicorns with this archetype.

    The alignment "becoming yours" only applies to the eidolon. Summoners however, being arcane casters don't have any alignment based limitations to summoning the way clerics do.


    LazarX wrote:


    An Archetype is not about gaining advantage, it's about taking a different road for flavor and character reasons.

    A First World Summoner since he's not using Summon Monster CAN use his eidolon and SNAs at the same time. What he SHOULD be doing is using his eidolon differently as opposed to the brute monster most summoners go for.

    Useless Gimp = REAL ROLEPLAYAR!!. I'm so sick of that argument. The archetype is mechanically bad AND lacking in flavor as far as the Eidolon is concerned.

    Anyways, as I've pointed out on this board before, if the First World Summoner's summoning ability doesn't inherit anything from the Vanilla Summoner's SM ability, such as not being Eidolon-limited or unstackable - which is a reading that's strained to the point of dishonesty - it also doesn't get standard action casting time or minutes duration.


    Pupsocket wrote:
    LazarX wrote:


    An Archetype is not about gaining advantage, it's about taking a different road for flavor and character reasons.

    A First World Summoner since he's not using Summon Monster CAN use his eidolon and SNAs at the same time. What he SHOULD be doing is using his eidolon differently as opposed to the brute monster most summoners go for.

    Useless Gimp = REAL ROLEPLAYAR!!. I'm so sick of that argument. The archetype is mechanically bad AND lacking in flavor as far as the Eidolon is concerned.

    Anyways, as I've pointed out on this board before, if the First World Summoner's summoning ability doesn't inherit anything from the Vanilla Summoner's SM ability, such as not being Eidolon-limited or unstackable - which is a reading that's strained to the point of dishonesty - it also doesn't get standard action casting time or minutes duration.

    A strained reading that even the creative devs interpret it as? K

    I would say that it is one round per level, but SLAs are standard actions unless noted otherwise.


    Marroar Gellantara wrote:
    Pupsocket wrote:


    Useless Gimp = REAL ROLEPLAYAR!!. I'm so sick of that argument. The archetype is mechanically bad AND lacking in flavor as far as the Eidolon is concerned.

    Anyways, as I've pointed out on this board before, if the First World Summoner's summoning ability doesn't inherit anything from the Vanilla Summoner's SM ability, such as not being Eidolon-limited or unstackable - which is a reading that's strained to the point of dishonesty - it also doesn't get standard action casting time or minutes duration.

    A strained reading that even the creative devs interpret it as? K

    Devs? I was going to ask if I had missed a ruling, but then I realized you said creative devs.

    Marroar Gellantara wrote:
    I would say that it is one round per level, but SLAs are standard actions unless noted otherwise.

    That's an interesting discussion. The Core book and the Bestiary diverge, and there are a few threads about it. Let me just say that if the writers didn't believe SLA:SM was a one round action, there would have been no need to write that it was a standard action for the Summoner class.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

    This is a classic first world problem.


    Pupsocket wrote:
    Marroar Gellantara wrote:
    Pupsocket wrote:


    Useless Gimp = REAL ROLEPLAYAR!!. I'm so sick of that argument. The archetype is mechanically bad AND lacking in flavor as far as the Eidolon is concerned.

    Anyways, as I've pointed out on this board before, if the First World Summoner's summoning ability doesn't inherit anything from the Vanilla Summoner's SM ability, such as not being Eidolon-limited or unstackable - which is a reading that's strained to the point of dishonesty - it also doesn't get standard action casting time or minutes duration.

    A strained reading that even the creative devs interpret it as? K

    Devs? I was going to ask if I had missed a ruling, but then I realized you said creative devs.

    Marroar Gellantara wrote:
    I would say that it is one round per level, but SLAs are standard actions unless noted otherwise.
    That's an interesting discussion. The Core book and the Bestiary diverge, and there are a few threads about it. Let me just say that if the writers didn't believe SLA:SM was a one round action, there would have been no need to write that it was a standard action for the Summoner class.

    Clarification that something is the case does not mean that without the clarification that it would not be the case.


    Marroar Gellantara wrote:
    Clarification that something is the case does not mean that without the clarification that it would not be the case.

    Unless it's an exception, not a clarification.


    Pupsocket wrote:
    Marroar Gellantara wrote:
    Clarification that something is the case does not mean that without the clarification that it would not be the case.

    Unless it's an exception, not a clarification.

    Yes, but SLAs are by default standard actions unless noted otherwise. Just because one SLA was noted as a standard action, that doesn't mean the general rule does not apply.

    Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

    Adelain wrote:

    A question about the Summon Nature's Ally Ability of the First Worlder archetype:

    ** spoiler omitted **

    As this ability replaces the original summon ability and the description does not say it can't be used while the fey eidlon is summoned, the First Worlder Summoner is able to use is Summon Nature Ally Ability while his Fey-Eidlon is summoned.

    Do I understand this correctly or do I miss something? In case the above is true, I think this archetype is incredible good!

    I had always understood it to be one of the advantages of the first worlder that he could actually use his summon SLA while his eidolon was out. You've got a weaker eidolon and a weaker baseline for your summons, but you can actually use the full breadth of your abilities instead of having to pick one over the other.

    Sovereign Court

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    because sometimes you want a character to hire a valet to park your exotic mawangi riding dog and you want to worry about whether your trail rations are cruelty free and artisan.


    Marroar Gellantara wrote:


    Yes, but SLAs are by default standard actions unless noted otherwise. Just because one SLA was noted as a standard action, that doesn't mean the general rule does not apply.
    Core Rulebook, Magic chapter wrote:


    A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.

    And what does the description of Summon Monster (the spell) say that the casting time is?


    Fourshadow wrote:
    Can the Starlight/Moonlight/Sunlight Summons stack? Can summoned creatures have 2 or all 3 of them active at once?

    Does anyone know? Can all of these apply to the same summoned creatures at once?!


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    Pupsocket wrote:
    Marroar Gellantara wrote:


    Yes, but SLAs are by default standard actions unless noted otherwise. Just because one SLA was noted as a standard action, that doesn't mean the general rule does not apply.
    Core Rulebook, Magic chapter wrote:


    A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.
    And what does the description of Summon Monster (the spell) say that the casting time is?

    Bestiary Universal Monster rules

    "A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled."

    CRB:

    "A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell."

    Now you can either say these two sections intentionally contradict and that PCs have different SLA rules OR that by spell description they mean the paragraph text not the listed casting time.

    I find either problematic and would like for one of the two descriptions cleaned up.


    DOT

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