How about a three part heist themed AP, akin to Keys for the Golden Vault, but with an over-arcing storyline? Outlaws of Alkenstar skirted the edges of this territory, but never fully committed. You probably wouldn't be able to write it as a conventional AP, requiring more of an urban sandbox to really shine.
I dropped the catacombs of wrath entirely, as their only real purpose to is to level up the PCs before Thistletop, and foreshadow the larger dungeon crawl at the start of book 5, which I also cut. The campaign did not suffer as a result. The Sandpoint article mentions an abandoned house on Chopper's Isle, previously occupied by the bird-carving serial killer whose name I forget. The party visited the house, found his secret murder workshop and fought the killer's ghost. They also picked up some Pazuzu themed cursed treasure.
If memory serves, you find evidence of necromantic activity under Hellknight Hill, then follow a secret tunnel to the basement of an inn in Breachill. The tavern owner can then tell you that Voz has been using the tunnel, and I guess the hope is that players will assume she is the bad person they are after. EDIT: last poster beat me to it, by 24 hours, lol.
Maybe so, but the book doesn't direct readers/customers to the Archive of Nethys. Whether or not you can get your hands on the particular ruleset for (cue jingle) Paizo's BS Subsystem of the Week isn't my main gripe, it's that being bombarded with multiple subsystems per module is exhausting and subjectively bad.
magnuskn wrote: Subsystems: Paizo loves their subsystems. Only that many of them don't work (Caravan system from Jade Regent) or are terribly unbalanced (original kingdom rules from Kingmaker 1E). Encountering one which actually is not terrible (like the rebellion rules in Hell's Rebels, which are just a bit boring, but functional) is always a big plus. I will - and recently have - marked AP volumes down in review because of what I perceive as an unnecessary and egregious use of subsystems. I'll grudgingly concede that managing a caravan or organizing a rebellion justify the use of a subsystem to keep track of everything across the course of the entire campaign, but recently we have seen subsystems to handle the most trivial bs imaginable. An NPC has information that could help your investigation? Better start gathering Influence points! You're being chased by an angry bloke with a big stick? Let's hope you can accumulate enough Evasion points to escape! Do you want to buy that cool magic item from the skeezy merchant? He's not gonna' sell unless you've collected enough Negotiation points to satisfy his weird and inconvenient compulsion to haggle. ... and so on. Usually followed by a blatant advertisement to buy whatever splat book that particularly subsystem appears within. Sure, I can - and will - cut this stuff out of any AP I actually run, but having to read this [content] on an initial assessment of any module is dull as F.
It wouldn't be a Pathfinder AP without their signature Convoluted & Unnecessary Subsystems! But yeah, this chapter (and the start of book 2 for that matter) have a weird lackadaisical energy. If I had to run this module, I would have the PCs investigate the shop and learn the bad guys are already searching the marketplace for Merchant with Next Card/s, then have the battle occur in the middle of the market. PCs get more cards, portal to Harrow Court opens, and you're into chapter 2.
I have attempted to streamline the plot of Mantle of Gold for conversion to Savage Worlds; :
PCs in dwarven city of Highhelm.
PCs meet furtive/hooded dwarf Elbert Glassgrinder (WC), who wants to mount expedition to recover Skysunder (long lost clan dagger of First King Taargick) from the Darklands. (Elbert is really Krohan Veldollow, who was previously exiled for stealing - and losing - the dagger. He hopes returning the relic will end his long banishment). Elbert believes the lost dagger is located in the abandoned gnome enclave of Guldrege, which was abandoned after being destroyed by a giant crimson worm. A dwarven patrol recently went missing near the ruins of Guldrege, the gate guards ask the PCs to keep an eye out.
A: fungi release poisonous/mind-altering spores. Most of the missing patrol have been turned into fungal zombies (2x per PC, plus 2). Fungal zombies explode when they die. B: Survival rolls to navigate winding tunnels and remain on course (Dramatic Task). Success results in an uneventful journey to Guldrege. Failure results in the party getting lost, consuming their rations and arriving in Guldrege Fatigued. The ruins of Guldrege surround a gaping hole in the floor.
Before anything else, the cursed relic must be cleansed. Elbert knows a young priest called Heldin who can perform the necessary rites. During the ceremony, vengeful spirits (1x per PC + 1) emerge from the blade and try to disrupt the ritual. Elbert is possessed, as are any PCs who fail to resist. After cleansing the relic, the party should present themselves before High King Borogrim the Hale. Elbert reveals his true identity and asks for his long exile to be ended. The PCs (and Elga Longbraids) may speak up to sway the King's decision.
The party need a guide to help them find Zogototaru the Avernal Worm, who will lead them to King Taargick's lost tomb. The only guide mad enough to brave the crimson worm's tunnels is a deep gnome called Jirelga. Unfortunately, she is currently in the clutches of the Black Noon Thieves Guild after she attempted to rip them off. The guild is lead by tattooed brute Tuom Molgrade (WC), and consists of many Black Noon Thieves (3x per PC, spread across the area). The guild have set up shop in an abandoned foundry. I am curious how Jirelga is supposed to know the whereabouts of the Avernal Worm though. Is it a case of "Hey, this thing ate you once, where is it now??" I'm guessing it'll be some kinda 'the trauma of being eaten alive formed a strong mental bond with the beast' nonsense, but I suppose we'll find out next week when the PDF drops.
I've not particularly enjoyed the first two thirds of this AP, although it is not without intermittent and isolated merits. Having read Worst of All Possible Worlds this morning, I started thinking about how I would restructure the AP for play at my table. :
PCs receive Harrow cards and are drawn to Absalom.
PCs gather enough cards to open gateway to tbe Harrow Court. PCs gather some more cards via portals across Golarion. Harrow Court attacked by Raven Nicoletta and the Prince of Wolves. PCs are defeated and forced to retreat. Raven Nico!etta caims their cards and the Prince of Wolves claims the Harrow Court. PCs summoned to the Tree of Answers for audience with the Norns. PCs are given the power to confront Raven Nicoletta and the Prince of Wolves, and the opportunity to sway the Norns from their course. Return to the Harrowed Court (now a desolate wasteground) to confront the Prince of Wolves and rescue the epitomized harrowkin. PCs transported from Harrow Court to the Nexus of Fate (demiplane) for final confrontation with Raven Nicoletta. If the PCs did not sway the Norns from their course, they appear to reclaim the Deck of Destiny as Raven Nicoletta falls, and the PCs must defeat tbem too. I would also dramatically reduce the number of cards in the Deck of Destiny, and by extension, the amount of time the PCs spend on their long ass scavenger hunt, IMO the weakest facet of this AP. Also, the next game I run will defo have a sausage vendor called Wurst of All Possible Worlds.
Waldham wrote:
No, No, No, Yes, No, No.
Yeah, I did consider adding "IMO" afrer the fact, but the person below had already quoted me and I didn't want to alter my post again. I completely agree with what you just said, re: subjectivity. My review is written from my personal headspace, with the added caveat that I am reading it as a non-Pathfinder player who is looking for material/storylines to convert to another game system. I completely gloss over the stat blocks and specific rules for traps/hazardous environments, as I will be rebuilding those myself. For these reasons, I found The Seventh Arch to be lacking, but other people will have their own reasons to like or dislike the module, whereas NVM seems to have taken umbrage with my apparent powers of time travel more than anything else.
The big difference between them being I actually read it before submitting my review. I restarted my subscription following the ORC announcement; received, read and reviewed the PDF copy of this book, then cancelled my subscription because I found it to follow in the recent trend of being, well, bad. But in response to NVM's not-really-a-review, I have adjusted my own review score to 1 star, just to "balance things out".
MetalProgrammer wrote: Can someone who have the pdf answer some questions. How combat/dungeon heavy is this adventure? Also how linear is it? Some AP can be very linear while others are decently open. My group loves the premise but tend to be a group that values RP. There are 3 small dungeons and a half-dozen set piece combat encounters. It is pretty linear, to the point that it almost feels like the first draft of a Pathfinder fanfic with a few RPG elements thrown in. There are several opportunities for RP, but it mostly feels like you're talking to the train conductor on route to the next story beat.
While I have dabbled in many different AP, I have only run Rise of the Runelords to completion, so it is only the changes from that adventure that I would consider 'canon' for my ongoing home-interpretation of Golarion; The Heroes of Sandpoint befriended and 'civilized' the goblins of Thistletop. Sandpoint now has a small micro-community of good goblins (called either Hope, or Stinkpoint depending on who you ask). Goblins are now unlocked as a playable race in future campaigns. Ameiko Kaijitsu married dwarf PC Rast Sternhammer and they have a baby called Gara. The Heroes of Sandpoint involved themself in the elections for the new Mayor of Magnimar and saw Haldeem Grobaras thrown out on his fat arse. Leis Nivlandis is voted in to replace him. There is even a goblin on the city council now (and goblin lawyers!). The Broken Arrows are restored under human PC Ben Kotek. The Paradise riverboat is now a floating casino/fortress owned by half-orc PC Grogg. The lost city of Xin Shalast is found and (following the exodus of Xarzoug's giant allies) reclaimed by the yeti. The yeti are unlocked as a playable race in future campaigns.
My interpretation was that the OGL is now a ticking bomb. Maybe it goes off on the 13th of Jan, as indicated in the leaked documents, maybe it gets delayed to some undetermined point in the future, but sooner or later it is going to explode. If nothing else, this is a wake-up call that Hasbro is out to get you, and severing yourself from the OGL is both urgent and necessary.
Here is a quote from the Basic Fantasy RPG site outlining what Chris Gonnerman is planning to do about the OGL in relation to his (awesome) product line; Quote:
https://www.basicfantasy.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4596 I imagine Paizo are already doing something similar, albeit on a much grander scale.
Xyxox wrote: I think they underestimate the fan base, especially where the loyalties really lie. I'm not so sure. Folk posting on this forum were already skewed against WotC, as evidenced in the 'Do you also play D&D?' thread, where everyone shat on 5e. Most people who started roleplaying since 5e hit its stride, and who - in all likelihood - play nothing but D&D5e, won't care one whit what happens to Paizo or other smaller 3P creators. I doubt the majority of those players are even aware of what is happening right now with the OGL. As someone on the EN World forums said, WotC will get maybe a month of moaning online, then it'll be back to business as usual. Obviously that doesn't account for any other predatory practices that are still in the pipeline for 2023 and beyond.
Well, that's Blood Lords over with, I guess. I just left 'Ghost King's Rage' a **** review, because it genuinely did not suck. That said, I have never disliked a Pathfinder AP as much as I disliked Blood Lords, and that's a unique sensation for me. I'm guessing the whole 'play as sentient - but not necessarily evil - undead' was just not a good fit for my lizard brain. IMO, I think the gimmick exhausted itself very quickly, and was not robust enough to support a six month campaign arc. Onwards, to Gatewalkers, and let us never speak of this AP again.
Some interesting reading on the issue, from an alternative source than the Paizo boards; Would Paizo be the Big Dog if Critical Roll had stuck with Pathfinder? Some thoughts from people playing both 5e and PF
Prosperum wrote: So what I'm hearing a lot of in this thread is that the ease of finding players and DMs is one of the main selling points for 5e? You should consider that the people posting to this thread are predilected to favour PF2, perhaps to the exclusion of D&D5e, and their comments here will reflect that preference. While the folk on this board grudgingly play D&D5e because it is easy to find a group, consideration should be given to why so many other people not on these boards are engaging with D&D5e. Create a thread called 'How many also play PF2?' on the D&D boards over at EN World and I imagine you would see a very different picture.
Not super jazzed for Gate Walkers, but Stolen Fate and Sky King's Tomb sound like they herald a return to more traditional fantasy, so I'm looking forward to those. Ater 6 months of (urgh) Blood Lords, and another 3 of whatever the heck Gate Walkers is gonna' turn out to be, I'm looking forward to some straight up fantasy heroing.
Is it truly that difficult to roll up and advance a new character to level 10/11, without playing through a series of adventures to get them to that point? I'm running Hellbound Heists (for D&D5e, admittedly) mid 2023, and that begins at level 8. Rather than play through a load of 'prequel' adventures before getting to the good stuff, I'm just going to ask each player for a quick summary of their life prior to the point that the campaign begins, and get straight into the action. If I was playing Fists of the Ruby Phoenix, I would be happy to create a comparitevely high level character intrinsically tied to the campaign setting (most likely a poor parody of an existing martial arts master) and get right into the tournament without preamble.
Quote: Always eager to hear back from what method of "Including recurring ally NPC companions to adventure with the PCs" works best, though! You could include optional NPC allies with ties to the story in the Players Guide for each AP, with suggestions regarding how they should be advanced to keep pace with the party throughout the campaign? The GM could use these characters as they see fit, to bolster a party that is under strength, or allow new/temporary players to join the game without having to roll up a PC, or as replacement characters if someone dies mid-session. If memory serves, you used to do something similar with your Iconics back in the very early days of your AP line (before the jump to PFv1?). I guess it would be up to individual GMs to ensure these allied characters did not overshadow the players during play.
The Raven Black wrote:
If memory serves, one of the criticisms leveled against Jade Regent was that you were playing the standard array of western-fantasy-style heroes, who traipsed halfway across the world to interfere in a dispute they had no stake in, because of their close affiliation with a Mary-Sue NPC. Would it not be better to have characters start in Minkai at level one, protecting their village/land from bandits/rogue samurai, then deposing a crooked noble/magistrate (and/or a wicked oni pulling the strings) in a level 1-10 AP. The 'sequel' could have things escalate from there, culminating in an assault on the Jade Regent's palace? 1: Defend village from bandits, dungeon crawl through bandit lair.
4: Jade Regent sends soldiers to make example of the group that killed magistrate/defied his rule. Party defend village from siege and drive of general (recurring villain).
I should add, I would rather see 3 part APs and/or 6 part APs that are distinct from one another. I don't understand the desire for two seperate-but-connected stories to run back-to-back, if that is what is being requested. I would be interested in APs that follow on from the finale of a previous AP, in the sense that Shattered Star and Return of the Runelords were 'sequels' to Rise of the Runelords. However, I imagine they can't be too closely connected, for fear of alienating customers who did not buy the first AP in the chain.
Is that a problem with the game or a problem with your group? There is no way it should be taking that long, even at higher levels. How many players in your group?
We have one guy in our group, usually plays a maxed-out character (usually a monk or sorcerer) who seems able to take twice as many actions per turn as anyone else, yet never plans his actions until it is his turn. He alone takes up as much table time as the rest of the group combined.
AceofMoxen wrote: I'm in a strongly story-based 5e weekly Eberron game, a weekly PF2 game/society play, and a weekly SWADE game where we try to avoid combat.(we're not very good at it) I would not play a combat-focused 5e game. I'm really bored of 5e character concepts, and I can't stand silly rules like "see invisibility doesn't let you defend yourself from invisible creatures." How's the SWADE game going? I would love to play more Savage Worlds, and I do have a Slipstream game lined up for early 2023.
I play 5e regularly and still enjoy it (currently nine weeks into Dungeons of Drakkenheim, playing level six characters). It is by far the most popular game within my gaming group *, for both pre-written adventures and homebrew content. I'm not sure how keen I am to jump to One D&D, but we'll see how much choice I get in the matter. * CoC7e comes in a distant second, with various Free League systems catching up fast.
It all depends on the story being told. Rise of the Runelords, the only AP I have run to completion is spectacular, but Book 5 felt like filler and Book 6 was a mess. Age of Ashes feels like a 6 volume epic, whereas Outlaws of Alkenstar was only three books long and still managed to outstay its welcome (despite having an awesome theme/setting). IMO, Blood Lords should definetely not have been a 6 book project. I have read a lot of threads/articles on other forums discussing how best to convert Pathfinder APs to other game systems, and one thing that comes up over and over again is to cut all the pointless/speed bumps encounters and fluff text. One poster over on the Pinnacle forums suggested you could cut as much as 80% of the AP and still run a fine campaign. Perhaps Paizo could consider releasing 3x 4 part Adventure Paths, which would still feel like a epic quest, without having to dedicate whole books to seemingly pointless filler content. I want to love your stuff Paizo, but by God, in comparison to other adventures available from Drivethru, they are often over-written, meandering and dull. That's my two cents, for what it's worth.
I've not finished reading 'A Taste of Ashes', but I just wanted to leave a shout-out for whoever wrote the inspirational rumour table in Part 1. The PCs may come across several random rumours in their search. Roll a d12 to determine which random rumour they hear;
You dedicated an entire page to this, when you could just as easily have the PCs overhear someone mention that THE HIGH PRIEST IS UP TO SOMETHING. Review forthcoming. :D
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