What does your Golarion setting look like / what changes have you made to the setting?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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From my big Eye of Dread campaign, this is a bit of fluff from my own writeup of Vellumis. Again, not so much a break with canon as just me coloring in between the lines:

Spoilers for Tyrant's Grasp that Everyone Knows About but that I still feel the need to spoiler tag because reasons:
"The Fountain: Occupying the Champion’s Square, this marble fountain dominates the vision of all who see it. At it’s center, a simple white obelisk rises into the sky. It’s surface appears perfectly pale, unblemished, until night falls, and moonlight and torchlight alike reveals that every inch of its surface is inscribed with thousands of the names of the first crusaders who died securing the beachhead that became the city.

In what some have come to consider either a miracle or a painful reminder, a shimmering light engulfed the Fountain two weeks after Vigil’s destruction, and locals realized as it faded that the names of all nine-thousand of the city’s dead had appeared upon the pale stone, joining the rolls of those who preceded them in the battle against the Tyrant.

At the base of the Obelisk, visible at all times, are the following words: "Remember Us."


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Some other things I incorporated into my setting would be "fantasy megastructures" and their ruins in the post apocalypse. This is a major thing even in the base setting (just look at Varisia) but I take a lot more inspiration from Godbound and Exalted (the latter of which I would probably just run as a setting for the former's system if I got the chance).


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

More than one of my GMs changes the listed sex of core ancestry Golarion NPCs to either male or female and often glosses over said NPCs' sexual preferences if they do not happen to be directly pertinent to the scene or story.

At least one of those GMs claims that it's just easier; that adding that level of social complexity would only detract from the adventure and risk the game devolving into a social-polital debate (it's a hot button issue for half the players).

Another GM claims it's to protect their impressionable young children who frequently play around (not at) the game table.

I think it's overreacting a bit, but considering the players' attitudes and not telling parents how to raise their children is generally conducive to good gaming, and so I try not to rock the boat too much.

Personally, when I GM I just keep such things as they are and try to keep everyone focused on the pertinent aspects of the game session.


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really hate how irrisen was handled
destroy entirely with full invasion of linorm king and mammoth lord after eternal winter was despelled would be nice state at 2e

black sovereign should have dead with technic league
that would leave a more interesting situation

oprak would completely annex molthune and negotiate peace with nirmathas

mzali take over most of vidrian plan to march for blood cove

taldor collapse in civil war north was take over by andoran south by qadira

not sure how to handle new thassilon


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

TLDR - Personally, I like to fill in the ancient past, with lots of connections to modern cannon. It allows me a lot of freedom as a GM while greatly enhancing the scope of the quest, making everythingthe heroes do seem that much more epic and connected to the setting.

Long ago a great hero defeated an ancient foe, saving the world. A giant statue was erected of him. Thousands of years later, after the village around the statue had declined and vanished, to be replaced anew by another village, then another, and another, and finally, a kingdom. After a time, none remembered the hero's name, or what he was known for. Nevertheless, due to the statue's apparent indestructibility and unnatural immobility, it became a symbol of protection and strength for the kingdom, which would later become an empire.

In the "modern age" of our heroes, the empire had gone to war with its neighbor. By this time, the heroes had already completed several harrowing adventures and had begun to make a name for themselves. So when the neighboring kingdom invaded, the heroes were called upon (some would say conscripted) to assist in repelling the enemy force from the empire. Though the empire was strong, their enemies had powerful magic that, up that point, had never been seen by the Empire of Man, and so they were able to push through to the imperial capital.

Over the statue, a team of enemy war wizards and the imperial heroes clashed with such power that the statue, for the first time in its existence, was damaged.

Though the war wizards were defeated and the invaders forced back, dread, terror, and unrest soon began to blossom among the people of the empire. Their symbol of hope had been forever tarnished. And with every passing day, the small crack in its once unblemished stone would grow slightly larger, and with it, the people's superstitious fears of ill omen too grew greater.

Great masons and mages alike were unable to repair the growing damage. Since they had indirectly caused the damage to the statue, the heroes were once again called upon to find a solution, to repair the statue before it crumbled and to heal the hearts of the people.

The party paladin knew of an ancient artifact of light and life that he thought might help mend the problem: a glowing orb, held in the bows of a great tree that grew at the heart of a mystical land of giants.

The paladin had perished years before, sacrificing himself to stop a powerful demon from destroying the heroes' home town. He was brought back to life in the land of the giants by the giants' seers, using the healing powers of the ancient artifact.

The seers foresaw that the paladin would one day bring their isolated nation to ruin. Though the paladin swore he would never do such a thing, the kindly seers claimed that it was inevitable. They believed that preventing it was not only impossible, but morally wrong. One does not mess with the fates or with the will of the gods. So they used the orb's magic to return him to life, per their prophecy.

Not all the giants agreed with their beliefs however, and though the paladin was hailed as a guest and friend by most, assassins were sent by an evil warlord to dispatch him. The warlord loved his people, and their place in the world, and wished to prevent the end of his culture. The paladin slew the giant assassins, then trekked across miles and miles of plains, swamps, and mountains (facing many monsters and hazards) to reach the warlord's mountainous keep. Hoping to put an end to the unrest and prevent a civil war among the giants, he infiltrated the warlord's throne room and bested the warlord's personal bodyguards.

Upon seeing his immortal myrmidons destroyed by one so small, the warlord surrendered. He then tricked the paladin. The warlord offered to give up his mad quest to save his people, ending the violence, if the paladin would allow the warlord to use his magic to send him home, never again to return. After all, if the paladin was gone from their lands, he could not bring ruin to the giants, and there would be no more need for such turmoil. And so the paladin rejoined his companions in his homeland.

For a time, the giants once again knew peace as the warlord resumed his role as rightful ruler of his people and reconciled with his council of seers. The seers continued to believe that the fate of their lands was inevitable, just as their ruler believed it had been averted.

Then the heroes came to the land of the giants, using knowledge of its location bestowed upon them by their paladin who--holding to his word to never return--did not join them on their quest. When the heroes of man arrived, the seers were already expecting them, and had prepared for their arrival. They showed their visitors the way to the artifact and gifted it to them. As the heroes thanked them, and were in the process of promising to return it to its rightful place one day, they were attacked by the new ruler of the giants, the son of the former warlord.

In the years since the paladin's resurrection, popular opinion had swayed against the seers, and so a great force fell upon them. The seers were murdered, giving their lives to allow the heroes to to complete a traveling ritual and escape with the artifact.

Though the heroes and paladin never knew it, the healing orb was the heart and strength of the giants, and without its presence in their lands, their mountains crumbled and shrank, their great lakes dried up growing shallow, their massive crop lands and forests diminished, and their once great people became in every way small again.

Upon their triumphant return to their homeland, the heroes found that their beloved emperor had prepared a great celebration and parade, hoping that it--along with the repair of the statue--would uplift his peoples' spirits.

Amidst the massive celebration, the heroes ceremoniously placed the artifact into the great statue's hands. It fit there as it did in the great life tree of the giants, as if it had always belonged there.

The artifacts healing magic immediately and dramatically went to work. The crack mended itself, slowly at first, but then ever so quickly as the people cheered all around.

But the magic worked too well. Once the crack had disappeared, the statue began to shrink as its stone turned to the flesh of a living man. In front of thousands of witnesses, the ancient hero dropped the orb, collapsed to his knees and cried out in a great booming voice rife with anguish:

"WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!?"

Before collapsing into incomprehensible despair.

Then the stars fell upon the world.

Within minutes, great flashes of light enveloped much of the empire, and indeed, much of the rest of the world as well. The explosions of light--the impact sites of the falling stars--laid waste to all it touched. For many, it was the last light they would ever see.

The celebration immediately turned to one of chaos and terror. At the edge of the imperial capital, where a star had fallen, came great and terrible creatures unlike anything anyone living had seen before (think flying, air-breathing aboleth). They rushed the capital, killing and enslaving all in their wake as they attempted to steal the orb. However, upon touching it with their foul tendrils, it burned them, and so they called upon terrible machines of war (think retrievers) to recover it for them. These "star gods" and their monstrous servants skirmished with the heroes briefly, before their retrievers were able to escape with the artifact.

In the coming days darkness ruled all the world. Before the ancient hero succumbed to despair and death, he was able to impart to the imperial heroes (through largely lunatic ramblings) that the stars had never been stars at all, but an invasion force of ancient immortal beings from beyond the black, come to destroy the world. The beings' efforts were stymied when the ancient hero used a powerful artifact to trap them in their ships in the black.

In so doing, the power of the artifact left the ancient hero forever petrified. In time, the orb's magic became linked with the stone that grasped it, growing it in size and durability. At some point in the distant past, the statue and the orb became separated, and it came to rest in lands far across the sea, creating the nation of giants.

In the unending darkness, the monsters came. First it was the immortal star gods, then their machines of war. Their efforts were aided by slaves and human allies who had turned against their own in their despair. Among the traitors of humanity was the Church of Stars, a once benevolent organization that was corrupted by misleading prophecy and the belief that their infallible gods now walked among them.

Then, less than a year after "The Fall," mutant abominations of animals and man began to appear. The corruption of the black had begun to grow the invaders' numbers (in some cases "rewarding" loyal servants thought to have been defeated by the heroes with terrible new forms) to topple all the remaining empires of the world.

Everything after that was been about saving people where possible, fighting the alien menace and their servants and monsters, finding and recovering the orb, and using its power to again vanquish humanity's ancient foe.

To succeed the heroes needed to recover the artifact, find and fight their way to the heart of the immortal invaders, confront the shapeless abomination that is the immortals' progenitor being, and repeat the ancient hero's actions, sacrificing themselves to forever break the power of darkness over their world.

In reality, the sun remained in place, as did the rest of the stars. It was the ash fallout created from the "falling stars" that blackened all of the skies and made day into night. It was the Church of the Stars and their abberant masters, as well as the lunatic ramblings of an addle-brained mad-man, who lead much of humanity to believe that the actual stars had fallen. And yes, it created much strife for the surface life of the planet.

This terrible event would in the far future come to be known as Earthfall; the terrible period of time after, the Age of Darkness. The great artifact orb of light and life would eventually evolve into the Starstone. The once great cyclops empire of Ghol-Gan would never recover from the loss of their holy artifact. The alghollthu empire as we know it today are the degenerate remnants of the original invasion force that nearly ended it all eons past. In the deepest sea of Golarion, they still guard the petrified remains of the band of heroes who so long ago foiled them, where they yet plot their revenge against humanity.

EDIT: As I've posted this online in numerous places over the years, I sometimes wonder if the authors of Extinction Curse were inspired by it.


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While I have dabbled in many different AP, I have only run Rise of the Runelords to completion, so it is only the changes from that adventure that I would consider 'canon' for my ongoing home-interpretation of Golarion;

The Heroes of Sandpoint befriended and 'civilized' the goblins of Thistletop. Sandpoint now has a small micro-community of good goblins (called either Hope, or Stinkpoint depending on who you ask). Goblins are now unlocked as a playable race in future campaigns.

Ameiko Kaijitsu married dwarf PC Rast Sternhammer and they have a baby called Gara.

The Heroes of Sandpoint involved themself in the elections for the new Mayor of Magnimar and saw Haldeem Grobaras thrown out on his fat arse. Leis Nivlandis is voted in to replace him. There is even a goblin on the city council now (and goblin lawyers!).

The Broken Arrows are restored under human PC Ben Kotek.

The Paradise riverboat is now a floating casino/fortress owned by half-orc PC Grogg.

The lost city of Xin Shalast is found and (following the exodus of Xarzoug's giant allies) reclaimed by the yeti. The yeti are unlocked as a playable race in future campaigns.


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The games of my group take place in a what if scenario of golarion where a huge war based on the 30 years war started in 4716, a few months after Ravounel rebellion. There are two main sides, Cheliax and its vassal states plus some simpatizers (like Razmir and Irrovetti) against the Anti-Thrune league, lead by Taldor, Andoran and the state cities of Varisia.
The APs events are mostly the same but with the war going on in the background (and sometimes directly involving the PCs).
Atm the team is trying to put a (presumed) surviving Rogarvia on the throne of Brevoy while trying to win the nation sundering civil war that it caused. Cheliax is supporting directly Nolesky while the League is considering to support the "Rogarvia" pretender. All the while something weird is happening because of a morally ambiguous professor with some dark tapestry connections but surely thats nothing to worry about.


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keftiu wrote:
Y'know, I've probably got more firearms than the average Golarion. I've got them proliferating quite a bit across Garund, with how much trade flows across the northern bit of the continent - once one group of caravan guards gets their hands on jezails, everybody's gonna want them, and doubly so once bandits start stealing them.

Yeah, me too. To be more specific, I've tied in increasing magic and tech advancement into my new Golarion timeline as well as in certain areas (ie my revamped New Thassilon, to name one), and am building up for a full on "Worlds War" camapign across the solar system.


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I've only recently become a fan of Golarion (having formerly been all-in on Eberron), but I came on board with a few general mods in mind if they ever come up.

First off, it's not exactly a change,but I generally find the 1e setting more interesting than the 2e setting. Fer instance, I think Thassilon is better as an ancient empire to uncover secrets about rather than as a neighbor you can just ask. I've paused the setting so there's no Ravounel, the Whispering Tyrant is still a pending menace, etc.

As for actual changes, though, I find the timeline is way too long and have mentally compressed everything after Aroden's ascension by 75%. That lets the AR years roughly approximate our own AD years in a way my little brain can comprehend.

To specific points, though, I've eased back the hard sci-fi in Numeria to make it a bit more like He-Man. It's a fantasy setting where you can find people using tech rather than being overrun with it.

I also was very disappointed to find out the truth about Razmir, so have decided he's an as-yet-undetermined outsider who gives his followers actual spells (divine, psychic, or other) for unknown reasons. There are actual clerics of Razmir who are in the dark about his ultimate goals.

Finally, I've changed Velstracs to Neutral Evil and replaced Daemons with them. I couldn't easily see a distinction between demons and daemons, but Cenobites are something else entirely.

Oh, and I've replaced the Whatsit Consortium when mentioned with the Pact Masters because I just find them more interesting.

I think that's it for actual setting changes outside of adventure flavoring. I'm finding that I've softened on a lot of the elements that didn't initially connect with me back in the day, but these remain my sticking points.


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My Knights of Lastwall are more similar to the old Knights of Ozem than the new book portrays. I don't have them split into two factions, They're still largely an Iomedean organization. I didn't straight up cut out the new material so much as reorganized it. Part of the reason for this is I prefer the actual knightly order to be narrower in scope, largely martial, largely LG. I keep a lot of the KOL book material as being representative of the general tide of support that's flooded to Lastwall's cause in the wake of the country's destruction rather than being entirely under the umbrella of the knighthood.

This is entirely a preference thing, not a judgement of the book at all, which is great. I just like the old Knights of Ozem and didn't want to see their structure so thoroughly discarded for my own Golarion.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fletch wrote:
I couldn't easily see a distinction between demons and daemons

as fan of daemons, the main difference is that daemons want to kill all mortals and eat/destroy their souls while demons want to corrupt mortals into sinners(and indulge in sins they represent which might or might not contain wanton murder)

That's about it, fiends are kind of niche hobbyist in general when you think about it


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CorvusMask wrote:
Fletch wrote:
I couldn't easily see a distinction between demons and daemons

as fan of daemons, the main difference is that daemons want to kill all mortals and eat/destroy their souls while demons want to corrupt mortals into sinners(and indulge in sins they represent which might or might not contain wanton murder)

That's about it, fiends are kind of niche hobbyist in general when you think about it

I don't really see a great difference between what Daemons want and what Demons were doing in the Worldwound for a hundred years.

I have to admit, slotting Velstracs into Daemons' spot fit my brain perfectly here; it's comforting to know I'm not alone in being somewhat befuddled by Daemons' niche.


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Yeah, I think it's a symptom of Golarion (and D&D/PF in general) lowkey turning demons into kind of just the "kill kill kill" monsters. Demons are much more frightening and interesting if they're subtle and corruptive, with only some of them being interested in killing you.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Yeah, I think it's a symptom of Golarion (and D&D/PF in general) lowkey turning demons into kind of just the "kill kill kill" monsters. Demons are much more frightening and interesting if they're subtle and corruptive, with only some of them being interested in killing you.

Yeah I'd much prefer to see some demons engaging in subtle manipulations of people/groups/cities/nations with their core goal being corruption and destabilization.

It's even more terrifying if when found out and confronted demanding to know why they did it, the cold and frightening answer is "... do I need a reason?"


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I guess my issue is that subtle corruption should be the devil's job, not the demon's.

Though as I grow older & more prone to self examination, I suppose non-subtle jackbooted conquerors works for devils, subtle manipulation for demons, and annihilation for daemons.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Yeah, I think it's a symptom of Golarion (and D&D/PF in general) lowkey turning demons into kind of just the "kill kill kill" monsters. Demons are much more frightening and interesting if they're subtle and corruptive, with only some of them being interested in killing you.

This is even more appropriate given that the 'identity' demons have in PF2 is being the embodiment of sins. I really like how 2e has put a little extra focus on giving each of the big formerly-known-as-Outsider families a unifying theme. Whether they're all successful is another question, but I have to praise the attempt.

--

In the meantime I've been trying to think of any major changes I've made to my own Golarion. While I'm lowkey cooking up possible edits to the death-to-afterlife pipeline (more recontextualisations than anything) the only actual change I can think of is when my party ran into Menadoran festrogs in an AP, I decided rather than being created out of giants from the Menador mountains that this was a 'normal' festrog and that festrogs were actually a sort of custom artisanal type of undead that takes a normal human corpse and stretches it beyond comprehension and turns it into a hunting hound. Just a little show-off piece for a necromancer bored with just animating the usual zombies and skeletons who wants to flex their artistic side.


TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Yeah, I think it's a symptom of Golarion (and D&D/PF in general) lowkey turning demons into kind of just the "kill kill kill" monsters. Demons are much more frightening and interesting if they're subtle and corruptive, with only some of them being interested in killing you.

Yeah I'd much prefer to see some demons engaging in subtle manipulations of people/groups/cities/nations with their core goal being corruption and destabilization.

It's even more terrifying if when found out and confronted demanding to know why they did it, the cold and frightening answer is "... do I need a reason?"

I personally believe that what makes demons truly scary is that they're truly awful, horrid, heartless beings, and in a setting where most alignment is handled as a bit of a binary? Yeah, demons do suffer for it.

I don't see demons as manipulators so much as corruptors. They do what's fun, and they pressure mortals to join in that "fun". Murder demons aren't out to trick you into giving them your soul, they're out to get you to declare war on your neighbor.


Kobold Catgirl wrote:
TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Yeah, I think it's a symptom of Golarion (and D&D/PF in general) lowkey turning demons into kind of just the "kill kill kill" monsters. Demons are much more frightening and interesting if they're subtle and corruptive, with only some of them being interested in killing you.

Yeah I'd much prefer to see some demons engaging in subtle manipulations of people/groups/cities/nations with their core goal being corruption and destabilization.

It's even more terrifying if when found out and confronted demanding to know why they did it, the cold and frightening answer is "... do I need a reason?"

I personally believe that what makes demons truly scary is that they're truly awful, horrid, heartless beings, and in a setting where most alignment is handled as a bit of a binary? Yeah, demons do suffer for it.

I don't see demons as manipulators so much as corruptors. They do what's fun, and they pressure mortals to join in that "fun". Murder demons aren't out to trick you into giving them your soul, they're out to get you to declare war on your neighbor.

always feel demon should be horrifying because how much similar they are to mortal compare to other fiend

the emotion they understand when manipulating mortal the delight they have when other suffer the satisfaction they have when indulging their sin

demon are mortal on their worst day

not just some unfeeling monster consume everything like qlippoth


25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:


demon are mortal on their worst day

I'm not very deeply read on Golarion, but I understand that here demons are spawned from specific sins and this line does a great job of summarizing the nuance that can give.

I do think demons can be subtle while devils can be brutish, but it's their ultimate goals that I consider the dividing line. Devils want to dominate, demons want to destroy, and daemons also want to destroy.

Cenobites, on the other hand, have this unique "you will experience incredible pain and learn to enjoy it" aspect that is not only unique but also comfortably neutral evil.

Side note: I had thought Zon'Kuthon was connected with them, but I guess that was the Dominion of the Black, which is aliens? I have so many questions about that.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

the worldwound also sort of feels like an outlier in terms of general demon goals, It was two specific demon lords and there forces invading and expanding to add to their realms if I am remembering correctly. I can see the general trend of Demons being corruptors.

Zon kuthon has connections to Velstrac's a different group of evil outsiders. based off of the things from Hellraiser(i'm not too familiar with the franchise).


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Given that there is a discussion about Demons vs Daemons. The key part is that Demons were created by Daemons.

While daemon are generally about consuming souls for the sake of consuming souls (thereby getting more power). Demons are the experimental results of the viciousness/bloodlust of a Qlippoth, and the emotions/thinking of a mortal reproduced in mass by the planar conciousness of the Abyss.

That's why its hard to see a difference. Those three (Daemon, Demon, and Qlippoth) have the same overall goal of "destroy everything". While going about it in entirely different ways.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
keftiu wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Fletch wrote:
I couldn't easily see a distinction between demons and daemons

as fan of daemons, the main difference is that daemons want to kill all mortals and eat/destroy their souls while demons want to corrupt mortals into sinners(and indulge in sins they represent which might or might not contain wanton murder)

That's about it, fiends are kind of niche hobbyist in general when you think about it

I don't really see a great difference between what Daemons want and what Demons were doing in the Worldwound for a hundred years.

I have to admit, slotting Velstracs into Daemons' spot fit my brain perfectly here; it's comforting to know I'm not alone in being somewhat befuddled by Daemons' niche.

Its hard to tell yeah because there is major overlap.(in general NE and CE alignments have lot of overlap because both are about character doing evil because they want to for selfish reasons) Like lot of worldwound WOULD fit more to daemon's MO than demons, but demons having apocalyptic "loot and raze" horde is also fitting for demons because demon lords are essentially warlords obsessed with single hobby and in case of Deskari, said hobby is "spread like a locust swarm and consume everything on the path"

Like... Main difference between daemons' and demons' destructive goals is that Daemons have ultimate goal (the apocalypse) demons don't really have long term goal or plans, they just do whatever they feel like is fun. When you read demon lords' teachings, the only demon lord with any semblance of comprehensive worldview and ideology of what world should be like is Lamashtu

To compare them to devils' corruption aspect, what devils ultimately want to do is to spread dominance of Hell and corrupting mortals is for pragmatic aspect of creating more power for hell. Demons corrupt mortals for funsies more or less.

(note that setting generic early 1e bestiaries were extra confused about differences between fiends, the differences between devils, daemons and demons developed over course of 1e and more strongly codified in 2e)


I imagine part of the difficulty there is that the difference only would have been apparent after the invasion succeeded; Deskari would have ruled over Golarion as part of his domain, tormenting it's inhabitants.

Had the Worldwound been a daemonic invasion, after breaking through the wards they'd have made a b-line for the Pit of Gormuz & dedicated their efforts into releasing Rovagug & bringing about the end of all life.

Edit: Sidebar, this is kind of why I feel that Golarion should get a lot *more* daemonic attention as it's the planet that contains their win button.


I've done some tinkering with Osirion specifically as a setting - fleshing out the Keleshite Interregnum and allowing the south to be a relict Osiriani cultural bastion that reintroduced it after the Sultan fled, and toning down how common Pharaonic necromancy was to make those who practiced it stand out - but the biggest change I've made to how the world works has been deemphasising the primacy of Pharasma, because a universe where Pharasma exists as the ultimate postmortem arbiter doesn't leave much room for a god like Osiris. In my slightly modified version, Pharasma being the first and last and the ultimate judge of souls is dogma specific to her church, and not necessarily True in the same way there are differing accounts of Sarenrae, either an angel who ascended or starting as a goddess from the beginning.

Even in Pharasmin dogma, Osiris exists, he is powerful and judges the souls of the dead according to an ancient bargain struck between her and Isis - what that bargain was is a mystery with many possible answers. Osiris's and Isis's worshippers deny Isis made any such deal or that Osiris needs her permission, and that it's just a story the church uses to make their faiths less distasteful so it can coopt them. There are other afterlives too - in my homebrew Iblydos, the Blessed Isles, Elysium and Hades also exist, with Zeus's three sons judging the dead and the god Hades and his queen Persephone ruling their dominion, and while Charon may in some lands be one of the Four Horsemen in Iblydos he's still a fairly neutral ferryman. Asgard and Helheim also exist among worshippers of the Aesir and Vanir in my conception of the Lands of the Linnorm Kings who hold to their local gods alongside newer gods like Gorum and Erastil, and people might use the name of one god to refer to another - Gorum might by called Tyr in LotLK or Ares in Iblydos, and might actually be the same god. A bit more interpretation, subjectivity and ambiguity than having the gods be very clearly defined things. In such places the First World is still known as Alfheim.

The typical diagram of the River of Souls and the structure of the planes is just a popular theory, one that very few wizards and clerics have actually been able to test since it's almost impossible to see it externally and the gods aren't telling. Nobody actually knows. The specific realms - the Field of Reeds, Elysium, Asgard, etc - might be separate planes, they might be demiplanes specific to those pantheons, or they might be part of the established planes. The gods don't approve of the living treading where they shouldn't, and people just don't get enough time to find out before they're asked to leave or forced to stay.


pixierose wrote:

.

Zon kuthon has connections to Velstrac's a different group of evil outsiders. based off of the things from Hellraiser(i'm not too familiar with the franchise).

Oh, in that case it slots quite nicely. Where is this described? Does any book go into more detail?

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Fletch wrote:
pixierose wrote:

.

Zon kuthon has connections to Velstrac's a different group of evil outsiders. based off of the things from Hellraiser(i'm not too familiar with the franchise).
Oh, in that case it slots quite nicely. Where is this described? Does any book go into more detail?

The information on velstracs is kind of scattered all over the place. The best place to start would probably be 1e's Book of the Damned, as it's a compilation and reorganization of the lore on various fiends Paizo developed over the course of 1e's run. Planar Adventures would be next, as it served a similar function for extraplanar lore in general (and was 1e's final hardcover).

The long and short of it is that the first velstracs were sadomasochistic souls so terrible the gods imprisoned them in Hell, but they busted out and followed one of their Demagogues to the Shadow Plane, which remains their center of power, though many have now returned to Hell as ambassadors now parleying with devils as equals rather than as prisoners.

Zon-Kuthon's twisting did indeed come from...whatever he encountered travelling the Dark Tapestry, the Dominion of the Black is more an extraterrestrial polity that lives in the Dark Tapestry. That his new mindset was so perfectly aligned with the velstracs is, at least as far as we know, pure coincidence. The velstracs just saw Zon-Kuthon and were like "Oh, hi! You'll fit right in here, welcome!"


Good tips on Velstracs, everyone, thanks. I'm going to have to come back some time and pick y'all's brains for Razmir ideas.


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FormerFiend wrote:

I imagine part of the difficulty there is that the difference only would have been apparent after the invasion succeeded; Deskari would have ruled over Golarion as part of his domain, tormenting it's inhabitants.

Had the Worldwound been a daemonic invasion, after breaking through the wards they'd have made a b-line for the Pit of Gormuz & dedicated their efforts into releasing Rovagug & bringing about the end of all life.

Edit: Sidebar, this is kind of why I feel that Golarion should get a lot *more* daemonic attention as it's the planet that contains their win button.

My understanding is that Daemons have no interest in Rovagug because he's ultimately part of the cycle of reality. He's supposed to eat the universe to make room for the next one. He just decided to be an ass and eat everything hundreds of billions of years before he's scheduled to. Daemons want the cycle broken. They want total nonexistence with no new universes ever being born again. Rovagug can't and won't do that.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I mean there is also element of Daemons kinda wanting to be personally ones to do it from what I've observed about several different apocalyptic demigods and their goals


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mikeawmids wrote:

While I have dabbled in many different AP, I have only run Rise of the Runelords to completion, so it is only the changes from that adventure that I would consider 'canon' for my ongoing home-interpretation of Golarion;

The Heroes of Sandpoint befriended and 'civilized' the goblins of Thistletop. Sandpoint now has a small micro-community of good goblins (called either Hope, or Stinkpoint depending on who you ask). Goblins are now unlocked as a playable race in future campaigns.

Ameiko Kaijitsu married dwarf PC Rast Sternhammer and they have a baby called Gara.

The Heroes of Sandpoint involved themself in the elections for the new Mayor of Magnimar and saw Haldeem Grobaras thrown out on his fat arse. Leis Nivlandis is voted in to replace him. There is even a goblin on the city council now (and goblin lawyers!).

The Broken Arrows are restored under human PC Ben Kotek.

The Paradise riverboat is now a floating casino/fortress owned by half-orc PC Grogg.

The lost city of Xin Shalast is found and (following the exodus of Xarzoug's giant allies) reclaimed by the yeti. The yeti are unlocked as a playable race in future campaigns.

That's really neat, in terms of continuity.

Incidentally, on the topic of Numeria, that's another major country I had to change up. Instead of only being famous for being only a crash site of a single ship, I made it so that Numeria was the site of a massive artifact built to channel the energy of the cosmos (well, more or less), that went haywire during one of the cataclysms and wound up summoning a bunch of alien starships and generation ships to Golarion, and severely damaging them. Over time, these "visitants" forgot their origins, but continue to live in the ruins of their ships in varying degrees of development, as well as traveling outside to other lands (this is my way to have a lot more races in the game).

On a more general note, the new nature of Golarion itself means I have a lot more "magic/fantasy" influenced natural landmarks and formations as well, ie like floating mountains and naturally formed portals, etc. etc.

In addition, I really had to pare down a lot of timespans (even the ones I already pared down), and really making sure there weren't just randomly centuries upon centuries where nothing happens.


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1) Any True Elixir of Life drastically slows down your aging speed to a practical zero, for about a month.
2) Monks who unlocked the Timeless Body ability DO potentially live forever unaged (until they "ascend to a higher existence" or do something similar).
3) Your soul doesn't get degraded to building blocks for the Outer Planes if you want so, and no harmful repercussions at all.

Those are what I'd immediately change. Others, I might think of in some other free time...

Shadow Lodge

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My Rise group, due to problems all around, got the Bad End.

They still wanted to play Shattered Star and complete the trilogy.

So the search for the Shards began six months after the Rise of Mhar.

So trade has been disrupted and routes had to be redrawn due to the presence of an enormous volcano with legs stumbling around the landscape. I've determined that there is at least one NPC capable of casting 9th-level spells, who basically has to request a Miracle of "Save us from Mhar" on a near-daily basis to keep him away from major cities. (Small villages, however, are in dangerous positions) Also, there has been a rise in World Thunderers (people who worship Mhar) who think they can gain favour by throwing sacrificial victims into Mhar's caldera.

In other news, I looked up some "Worldbuilding With Food" ideas, and determined that potatoes were originally Varisian, but have been exported throughout the world via Absalom. Oparan chefs recently hit upon a dish of fried fish and potatoes!

Also, tomatoes were brought over from Arcadia by Chelish sailors, and now they claim it was always a Chelish fruit. I also claim Golarion has some veggies that can't be found in the real world, but I haven't specified anything about any of them.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

After some players expressed interest, been slowly trying to massage Osirion into a more workable shape. Trying to keep what's innately interesting about the region while diminishing how much it's literally ancient Egypt. Adjusting the gods to make them new, distinct entities while retaining what's interesting about their PF versions. It's tricky and very much a work in progress... but I'm also not sure if Paizo will even attempt to rehabilitate the region in this edition cycle so I feel confident tweaking it a lot.

In general my version of Golarion has kind of de-regionalized deities a bit. I have trouble reconciling gods simultaneously being these almost untouchable cosmic powers while also having these highly regionalized spheres of influence... plus I find the status quo sort of creates this weird feeling where there are the 'regular' gods (i.e. the core inner sea ones) and then 'other' deities (which are everywhere else) that feels a little bit sketchy to me.

This was a feature of one adventure I was running, but I put the alghollthu in a deeply fractured state and like to emphasize how dangerous they are not just because of their powers and intellect, but because they are deeply petty, self destructive, and stupid.

Like... they nearly wiped out their own society because they wanted to prank humanity basically on a whim, yet the core literature doesn't seem to suggest any backlash within their own social structure because of it and often still presents the veiled masters as hypercompetent.

These guys are stupid and so beyond arrogant they can't even conceive of consequences for their actions, and I think they're more interesting as villains for emphasizing that.


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I think the core literature frames the alghollthu's action a bit differently, but that's a fun interpretation of it!


I'm not despairing about the Golden Road's chances. I have to believe they'll revisit it someday - if nothing else, than to have canon newer than 3.5 for Katapesh.

Fingers crossed!


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I was paging through my copy of Planar Adventures and saw something that reminded me of the conversation in here just earlier about the identities of the different immortal/'Outsider' families.

Now, you can take this with a grain of salt as it comes from 1e lore (albeit the last published book in the series) and the section in which it was found was about hypothetical Alternate Cosmologies, but it strikes pertinent to some of the thoughts regarding the 'family identity' of these beings at about the time 2e was being written.

Under the Alignment-Free Cosmology, there is a paragraph speculating what concepts different families of immortal might represent, if not alignment, offering these suggestions:

Archon - Justice
Angel - Divine Representatives
Azata - Freedom
Inevitable - Rules
Protean - Change
Devil - Punishment
Daemon - Death
Demon - Temptation to Sin

This comes with further advice about assigning each type of outsider a sub-identity, such as dividing devils up by types of punishment. This is something I think we can see very clearly in the naming of various demons after the sin they represent.

I wouldn't treat this list as a finished draft (for example I would say angels have a stronger general 'messenger' identity), particularly since it's missing some obvious family groups, but again it demonstrates interesting insight into what influences may colour each family's niche in the cosmos.


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A lot of the world changes that went from 1e to 2e didn't take effect yet in my setting, because I would like to one day explore it myself and maybe play the Adventure Paths. The Worldwound is one of my favorite regions in the setting, and for now- I keep the wound open and the demons coming.


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Speaking of daemons, I'm not sure it's a change, but made it so in my setting they were always, permanently hurting. I saw it being mentionned for the horseman of famine always being famished and the "drowing daemon" being only able to take one deep breath when it's drowning someone, so I generalised it to them all. None of them are happy, all are in a perpetual state of constantly relieving their death, but their nature are such that they suffer a little less when they make other people suffer throught the same thing. I wanted them to be kinda the definition of the "being bad feel bad" trope, and to separate them further from demons and devil.

Demons and devil also have a pretty sucky "life", but at least they get to enjoy themselves more often. Demons suffer having stronger demons use them as they please, and being paranoid at weaker demons trying to backstab them, but they do have some occasions to relax. Same for the devils being crushed under the hellish hierarchy, it's mostly all bad, but there are some actual satisfaction to be had here and there, be it only the satisfaction of a job well done, and of proving your intellectual superiority by tricking someone into a contract that only favor you.

Daemons have no satisfactions nor joy, their only respite is that they suffer a bit less when they make someone else suffer, or when they snuff a soul completely. Because of that, most of my daemons actually aren't trying to end reality or anything, they're just doing the one thing that allow them to feel less bad, it slowly destroying reality is just a byproduct, not the point. At least for the majority of them, Charon is 100% trying to further the end of all things.


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Scarablob wrote:


Daemons have no satisfactions nor joy, their only respite is that they suffer a bit less when they make someone else suffer

That's pretty compelling.


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Squiggit wrote:
After some players expressed interest, been slowly trying to massage Osirion into a more workable shape. Trying to keep what's innately interesting about the region while diminishing how much it's literally ancient Egypt. Adjusting the gods to make them new, distinct entities while retaining what's interesting about their PF versions. It's tricky and very much a work in progress... but I'm also not sure if Paizo will even attempt to rehabilitate the region in this edition cycle so I feel confident tweaking it a lot.

Yep, Osirion bugs me for this exact reason. What is doubly weird is that Kobold Press’ Midgard Campaign Setting does exactly the same thing with their nation of Nuria-Natal, replete with Egyptian gods et al. I just don’t understand why this region is so compelling to be lifted almost whole cloth..twice.

Squiggit wrote:

In general my version of Golarion has kind of de-regionalized deities a bit. I have trouble reconciling gods simultaneously being these almost untouchable cosmic powers while also having these highly regionalized spheres of influence... plus I find the status quo sort of creates this weird feeling where there are the 'regular' gods (i.e. the core inner sea ones) and then 'other' deities (which are everywhere else) that feels a little bit sketchy to me.

Totally sketchy. And again, to make a comparison with KP’s Midgard, though this time a positive, the interesting thing there is the concept of “masks” of deities, essentially the same deity using a different alias, name or even body/gender to suit different demographic and regional needs.

#derail over…


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On the talk of "outsiders" and deities, in keeping with making things more "epic", but also less "cut and dry", I've made it so not only do the "half-outsider/spirit" races (and races in general) have more concrete and "greater" abilities so to speak, but outsiders and deities in general are things I've been trying to make more "mysterious", while also not being obtuse.

Incidentally, MnM's Warriors and Warlocks supplement gives surprisingly good general advice for worldbuilding in terms of directly making a fantasy campaign-- I vaguely recall a reviewer claiming that its writers could handle DnD better than the current holders of that property.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Yep, Osirion bugs me for this exact reason. What is doubly weird is that Kobold Press’ Midgard Campaign Setting does exactly the same thing with their nation of Nuria-Natal, replete with Egyptian gods et al. I just don’t understand why this region is so compelling to be lifted almost whole cloth..twice.

THREE times if you count Mullhorand from Forgotten Realms!


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Some of y'all didn't have an ancient egypt phase as kids & it shows.


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FormerFiend wrote:
Some of y'all didn't have an ancient egypt phase as kids & it shows.

The statues of Bast all over my house disagree :)

I *love* Ancient Egypt… and think you can do write by it a thousand better ways than “just put it in as-is.” I didn’t like the Kemetic gods being there in Mulhorand, in the Realms, and I continue not to like it in Golarion.


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Yep, Osirion bugs me for this exact reason. What is doubly weird is that Kobold Press’ Midgard Campaign Setting does exactly the same thing with their nation of Nuria-Natal, replete with Egyptian gods et al. I just don’t understand why this region is so compelling to be lifted almost whole cloth..twice.
THREE times if you count Mullhorand from Forgotten Realms!

If we're talking fantasy RPGs in general there are a lot more than 2 or 3 settings with an on-the-nose fantasy counterpart to Pharaonic Egypt. Though to be fair, Osirion switches things up a little with Qadiran conquest and the subsequent rule of the sultans as the stand-in for the region's medieval history, which makes it more of a revivalist society. It still largely ends up with the same result in terms of presentation, but at least it isn't just perpetually ancient Egypt-y.

I like to think that a lot of the anachronisms that come from a typical "hollywood Egypt" setting can be somewhat explained in-universe by the fact that Osiriani people are drawing on what they know of ancient Osirion which will naturally be a blend of different time periods. Hopefully at some point a Golden Road book will contextualize this more, as that type of thing can get very Orientalist very quickly, but I might be in the wrong thread to talk about that :P


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Darth Game Master wrote:
snip

Frankly, I feel as if what this whole trend really needs is more "bronze age" and "relative time periods" support. Egypt just happened to be the most well-known Bronze Age civilization due to its survival (more or less) into the modern era (and romanticization in a lot of pulp fiction, etc.).

Oh, and another note on races: I really dislike "humanocentrism" (something something Absalom of all places still being 80% human) and "race stereotypes." Specifically, on the latter, I've actually written up a whole campaign world where half-orcs are considered a major race, to the point of composing a strong nation promoting equality.


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D3stro 2119 wrote:

Oh, and another note on races: I really dislike "humanocentrism" (something something Absalom of all places still being 80% human) and "race stereotypes."

This is where my fogey-ism shows through because I prefer humanocentric settings. I'm not sure I can describe it well, but I find racially-homogenized settings take away some of the fantasy feel. Like, if elves and gnomes are everywhere, they become mundane.

Buuuut, since Absalom is supposed to be THE metropolis, I agree that it should have a wider range of residents. That should be its special thing, like you walk in and are like "ohmygod, there's elves and goblins and mermen and..." Of course you only get that feel if all the other cities in the world aren't also like that.

Radiant Oath

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Fletch wrote:
D3stro 2119 wrote:

Oh, and another note on races: I really dislike "humanocentrism" (something something Absalom of all places still being 80% human) and "race stereotypes."

This is where my fogey-ism shows through because I prefer humanocentric settings. I'm not sure I can describe it well, but I find racially-homogenized settings take away some of the fantasy feel. Like, if elves and gnomes are everywhere, they become mundane.

Buuuut, since Absalom is supposed to be THE metropolis, I agree that it should have a wider range of residents. That should be its special thing, like you walk in and are like "ohmygod, there's elves and goblins and mermen and..." Of course you only get that feel if all the other cities in the world aren't also like that.

I disagree. Racially-homogenized settings make perfect sense in fantasy. Separate cities for different races should be a sci-fi thing, where the species eat different food and breathe different air. Most of my golarion cities are no more than 50% human.


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D3stro 2119 wrote:
Darth Game Master wrote:
snip

Frankly, I feel as if what this whole trend really needs is more "bronze age" and "relative time periods" support. Egypt just happened to be the most well-known Bronze Age civilization due to its survival (more or less) into the modern era (and romanticization in a lot of pulp fiction, etc.).

Oh, and another note on races: I really dislike "humanocentrism" (something something Absalom of all places still being 80% human) and "race stereotypes." Specifically, on the latter, I've actually written up a whole campaign world where half-orcs are considered a major race, to the point of composing a strong nation promoting equality.

Absalom is only 62% human, though your point still stands.


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Fletch wrote:
D3stro 2119 wrote:

Oh, and another note on races: I really dislike "humanocentrism" (something something Absalom of all places still being 80% human) and "race stereotypes."

This is where my fogey-ism shows through because I prefer humanocentric settings. I'm not sure I can describe it well, but I find racially-homogenized settings take away some of the fantasy feel. Like, if elves and gnomes are everywhere, they become mundane.

Buuuut, since Absalom is supposed to be THE metropolis, I agree that it should have a wider range of residents. That should be its special thing, like you walk in and are like "ohmygod, there's elves and goblins and mermen and..." Of course you only get that feel if all the other cities in the world aren't also like that.

I feel the same way. Cosmopolitan settings are fun, but they lose something. Humans are really underrated flavorfully as a great "neutral point" from which to focus entirely on a character's personality and story.

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