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There is a lot about burn here on the forums, and I wanted to use this as a jumping off point for discussion.
I want to put this out in front. I dislike Burn. I dislike it mechanically in 2E, and I absolutely disagreed with its implementation in 1E. I think it was overly complex, tried to solve the wrong problems, and didn't succeed at its own goals.
For those not familiar with burn, I won't dilute this post too much to 1E's implementation. Burn was the cost you paid when you used most 1E kineticist abilities. You paid modular amounts of burn to use these abilities, and each point represented taking nonlethal damage equal to your character level in a way that wouldn't heal until you rested. Burn is mentioned 53 times in the Archives of Nethys front page for the class, and is notoriously complex. I recommend reading what others have already stated about it.
Anyway, let's talk about one 2E and burn. I've seen two simple suggestions for Burn in 2E:
Burn = take nonlethal damage equal to your level
Burned X = drained X
There is a very simple mechanical problem with either of these in the context of 2E: ancestry HP. A level 1 character can take up to 22 instances of either type of Burn, while that same character at level 2 would only be able to take 17. This number will keep going down.
The second mechanical problem is that 2E is designed around easy access to out of combat healing. In the vast majority of fights, the party is assumed to be at full HP. This negates the danger of taking damage, but makes losing maximum Hit Points much more serious.
The third mechanical issue is less pressing. Nonlethal damage works completely differently. In 1E, it was tracked separately and gave you a cushion of "I'll go down, but I'll just pass out." In 2E, the nonlethal trait does nothing unless it is the last bit of damage you take before going to 0 HP.
These mechanical issues make it very easy to undershoot or overshoot a HP based cost in this system, or to have a cost gets worse as a player levels.
Anyway, I think there are some key questions that need to be asked of any proposal to add Burn back in as a core feature for the kineticist:
What are you trying to achieve?
If merely adding a non-Focus Point cost to using features, does your implementation effectively even work with 2E's healing?
Is it fun to manage your version of burn?
Do you account for ancestry Hit Points? Does your version work worse at level 2?
Is your version simple enough to understand in one reading?
Do you need a lot of class features (and page space) to make your version of Burn integrate into the class?
Does your version of burn account for people that want cool Wuxia/Avatar shenanigans and want to opt-out of burn-like systems? (Trust me, I heard from plenty of people like this in my attempt.)
To be clear, I would rather see Burn left out entirely than to see it poorly thrown in. And I mostly see it as a justification for keeping Constitution as the main stat and bumping the damage numbers/action economy across the board, which I don't feel answer any of the questions above.
For reference, here is how my systems tried to answer these questions. I'll note that my goal was to appease both camps: people who wanted burn as a power-fantasy, and people that just wanted cool elemental shenanigans and big HP pool. I'll note that my first version is an almost identical chassis to what the 2E version ended up as, so it is much more comparable.
When I made my first kineticist homebrew, these were major issues that came up in playtesting. My solution wasn't elegant. You would ramp up from unburned, to burning, to blazing, to overcharged. These states dealt damage equal to 1/2/3 + your level, and that damage couldn't be healed unless you had been unburned for 10 minutes.
This meant that a level 1 character could be overcharged for up to 5 rounds, while a level 20 character could be overcharged for 13 rounds. The conditions themselves gave varying bonuses; overcharged gain +3 damage per damage dice on your kinetic blast, a +2 status bonus to your kineticist class DC, and a +2 status bonus to your element's skills.
My subclasses were based around embracing or avoiding Burn: Cautious Disciple kineticists could easily reduced their state to unburned and gain temporary hit points while reckless disciple kineticists could overcharge themselves and skip the turn by turn ramping.
I think that the current playtests subclasses (the gate types) are more flavorful and less mechanically tricky to balance.
My second version was almost completely different from the playtest, and less well received. It was just a spellcaster that used a much simpler version of burned with no internal benefit, and that version was very close to the burned X = drained X implementation.
There are points to be made about simplicity, but this didn't play all that well and didn't have much internal logic behind it.
I think the core system of this class that should not go away is the Gather Power > Impulse system. I am not opposed to this system at all, and I think Gather Power is leaps and bounds more flavorful and interesting than it was in the past edition.
However, two issues make the class clunky because of the playtest iteration of Gather Power: overflow actions, and elemental blasts being an impulse. A lesser issue I will also talk about is the lack of CON integration into the chassis.
Overflow
As written, there are no 1-action overflow impulses. This means that each and every overflow action takes up at least a full turn's worth of actions. This leads to somewhat odd turn management for the many damaging overflow impulses that take 4 actions, but could also lead to turret gameplay if there is a good 2 action overflow impulse to spam.
Overflow impulses are also pretty uniquely crippling. I would invite the comparison to Swashbuckler's panache. When a Swashbuckler loses panache with a finisher, they lose vivacious speed and the bonus to their panache-related actions. A kineticist that used an overflow impulse can't attack with elemental blast, use any impulse, or even swing with their prebuilt elemental weapon until they Gather Power again.
Elemental Blasts
Elemental Blasts being an impulse has two major downsides. First, as mentioned they don't play nicely with overflow impulses at all. One could even consider them diametrically opposed, favoring either kineticists that go all-in on elemental blast with STR/DEX or kineticists that eschew blasting to max their CON and use impulses with DCs.
Second, elemental blasts trigger AAOs because as impulses they have the manipulate trait. This is absolutely fine for ranged blasts, but melee blasts become far less viable compared to elemental weapon or other martial counterparts. There is no feat to help prevent this.
Proposed Solution
Treat overflow like panache: a feature you have to earn that activates your class features and can be cashed in for big rewards (overflow impulses).
I think it is pretty clear what needs to happen. Both panache and overflow require an action to activate as-is; overflow just needs to have a skill check. I don't think that this is too much rolling; it is the same gameplay loop that a Swashbuckler has already.
So what skill check? This is how you address the lack of CON integration. Assign skills to each element, being pretty heavy on Acrobatics and Athletics. Then make the skill check use either Nature or any of the associated elements skills using the CON rather than whatever the skill would normally roll. I would also recommend a feat letting you use CON for untrained actions using your element's skill(s), per the GM's discretion.
That check would yield the following results:
Critical Success You gain the normal and greater benefits from the gathered element until the next of your next turn. You may use an action with the overflow trait before the end of your next turn.
Success You gain the normal benefits from the gathered element until the next of your next turn. You may use an action with the overflow trait before the end of your next turn.
Failure You may use an action with the overflow trait before the end of your next turn. You may attempt to Gather Elements again this turn.
Critical Failure Failure You may not attempt to Gather Elements again this turn.
Go nuts on what you think normal or greater benefits might be.
I think there is a lot of room here, and that this is somewhat intuitive. Under this system, you still need to have the right element gathered to use an impulse of that element but you need 'overflowing' elements to use an overflow impulse, which takes you back down to 'normal' for that element. I am also fond of making elemental blasts their own type of Strike, rather than an impulse.
Finally, you can tie this all back into the gate subclass the kineticist chose at character creation. I would do this similar to how the Gunslinger's Way differentiated how each subclass interacted with reload. Here is an example of how that could be accomplished:
Dedicated Gate
You are adept at gathering your element and putting it into motion. You Gather Element, then immediately make an elemental blast Strike.
Dual Gate
You can pull both of your elements at once, albeit incompletely. You Gather Element twice, once for each of your elements. Unlike the normal rules for Gather Power, you are able to maintain both of your elements, but the second element you gather is less firmly under your control. You may still use non-overflow impulses, elemental blasts, and gain the benefits of gathering that element, but you cannot use overflow impulses with this element, and it dissipates at the end of your next turn.
Universal Gate
You can utilize your flexibility over the elements to help your allies. You Gather Element and create a kinetic aura with that element. You are considered prepared to aid an attack or any skill associated with the element you gathered, and can aid an ally anywhere in your kinetic aura. You may use CON for the ability for the aid check, rather than whatever other ability would normally be rolled.
I think that the capstones could use a bit of tweaking before live release. Some seem to do very powerful things, while others have barely any combat relevance at all.
Looking at the capstone feats for each element. These are at 18 unless otherwise listed.
INFINITE EXPANSE OF BLUEST HEAVEN [three-actions]
10-foot burst, many traits (lots of immunities). Effectively makes enemies flat-footed and fleeing while inside the tiny cylinder. While cool, this seems like it will most often play out as slowed 1.
CROWNED IN TEMPEST’S FURY [two-actions]
This has no listed duration, but I'm assuming it is supposed to be a combat buff lasting 1 minute. Adds a respectable 1d12 electric to elemental blasts and 2d12 kinetic aura.
ASSUME EARTH’S MANTLE (14) [three-actions]
Seems a little odd to me that this will usually make your defense worse, but is also practically an Apex item well before you could normally get one.
REBIRTH IN LIVING STONE [two-actions]
No listed duration, so I'm again going to assume this is supposed to be a 1 minute combat buff. Adds a lot of THP, immunity to critical hits and precision, and increases damage die to d10s or d12s. All solid.
THE SHATTERED MOUNTAIN WEEPS [three-actions]
9d10 on a 20-foot burst isn't competing with spells, but there is some chance to up to 20d6 more over a minute. In general, this will do decent but not great damage while controlling the battlefield somewhat.
ALL SHALL END IN FLAMES [three-actions]
This hits a bigger area than The Shattered Mountain Weeps, but it also deals significantly less damage at 7d10. In practice, the former is always better. This is far below what spells deal at this level range, and really is not an effective use of 4 actions. Keep in mind that in the same time, a Wizard could use 2 level 3 fireballs and deal a little more damage. This provides zero benefits other than damage, and bonus: this also hurts you! The phoenix ability is a neat touch, but this needs more time in the kitchen.
IGNITE THE SUN [three-actions]
This ability exists. It is calling Flaming Sphere, and it is available to casters at level 3. Kidding aside, the purpose of this ability seems to be the 1d6 fire damage it adds to Strikes, fire spells, and fire impulses. The laughably ridiculous 4d6 fire damage to orb itself deals at this level just isn't relevant, though it is nice that it grows. I'd prefer this as a 1 minute non-sustained buff without the slightly heightened Flaming Sphere attached to it.
RIDE THE TSUNAMI [three-actions]
This is water's part of the 'do a little damage' big overflow cycle. It does decent damage (8d10) over a decent area (60-foot cone). It doesn't really have any battlefield utility; 10 foot of forced movement has literally never been relevant in any 2E game I've ever played. It is an extraordinarily minor effect; I hope this at least knocks prone on a failure when released.
USURP THE LUNAR REINS [three-actions]
This is incredibly do-nothing in combat. Keep in mind that at level 1, a water kineticist can produce an endless amount of drinkable water using Gather Element. This can create a 20-ft burst of water with literally no listed combat effect, or make a similarly sized bit of water difficult terrain. Even in the extra rare water encounters I've seen, spending 4 actions to make a small cylinder of difficult terrain would not have been relevant of effective. I get that they were mainly aiming to replicate the non-combat features of Control Water, but this seems to be a pretty half-baked execution as a level 18 class feat. I'd prefer largely noncombat feats like these to be skill feats requiring a relevant elemental gate.
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Mythic Powers: A Comprehensive Sourcebook
I've finally released my hopefully final version of a mythic system for Pathfinder 2nd Edition. This product is an evolution of the Mythic Advancement PDF I created a while back, but its not a just rebranding.
I am confident that this product (and some additional resources I will link below) is all any player or GM will need to run mythic content in their games.
What is mythic content? Mythic content is material intended to provide an alternate and additional path for character advancement. Pathfinder 1st Edition created the mythic system somewhat as a replacement for D&D 3.5's Epic Leveling system, which also provided another route of character progression.
This book draws on both of those sources, as well as Owlcat Games's Wrath of the Righteous, which converted the 1E Adventure Path of the same name which a much changed mythic system.
The book creates epic leveling progressions for each currently existing class. It also gives tools every table and resource they need to create campaigns for such characters, including expanding treasure, monster, NPC, and hazard creation tables. Running alternate or variant systems and worried about the ramifications? Each and every one is discussed.
It also gives spellcasters a vast array of new options for their old spells, letting them heighten their spells past level 10 for additional effects.
But this biggest thing I've added for both epic characters and characters playing in 'normal' level ranges is an entirely new system: mythic archetypes.
Like normal archetypes, these allow you to take archetype feats with your class feats after taking the dedication. These run alongside the normal archetype system, representing the source of power your character draws from; taking a mythic archetype does not like you out of taking an archetype or vice versa. There is even a mythic free archetype system.
The 36 new mythic archetypes represent a massive range of potential sources of power. For those not content to simply play 'like' a lich or a dragon, many archetypes even include a high level feat that will allow a player to permanently transform into the source of their power.
For those that liked the mythic paths of 1st Edition, I have also converted each of them to this new system, potentially letting 1st Edition characters with mythic paths be converted to 2nd Edition. I've even added in new archetypes for Primal and Occult spellcasters in the same style as the Archmage and Heirophant. Note that the Champion path became the Martial Master mythic archetype, due to the Champion and its multiclass archetype already existing in 2E.
This book also has many landscapes, character arts, and portraits made by me using secret and arcane techniques to overcome my total lack of artistic talent.
Finally, I'd like to link some very helpful resources I've co-opted, knowing that whatever I made would not be nearly as good.
DoggieBert's Monster Builder 1.1, as edited by me to incorporate the new tables for creatures up to level 30 (hence 'Mythic monster builder'
/u/viemexis's Character Sheet v5, also edited by me, made to incorporate another proficiency level and everything else needed for mythic play
If either of these content creators wants me to take these down, I will.
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I have been at work trying to create a second version of my mythic rules. Since I started, Pathfinder Infinite has come around and I will try to put my book on that platform for free, though I may have to get creative on art assets or do them myself.
At first, the niche I was intending for mythic rules to fill was that of epic levels. After all, 2E's promise of workable high levels meant that there would soon be people reaching level 20 and wanting more.
However, the main comment I've seen, particularly since Owlcat's Wrath of Righteous came out, is that people also want lower level mythic play or to convert previous mythic characters.
So I've completely updated my system, fleshing out a fully 1-25 (or 1-20!) setup and substantially adding to the new content in the book.
The biggest addition is mythic archetypes. Rather than getting a miserly 3 mythic feats in early levels, characters will now be able to gain an archetype that allows them to take certain feats as class feats. These mythic archetypes do not compete with regular archetypes; they are a source of power, not a profession. However, like other archetypes you must take at least three archetype feats before taking another dedication of the same type. Which means that yes, you can gain power from both dragons and lichs, or both angels and demons.
And boy are there a lot of archetypes. At 40, there are nearly as many as in the entirety of the Advanced Players Guide. Those archetypes include:
Aberration
Aeon
Agathion
Alignment
Angel
Archmage
Archon
Azata
Clockwork
Daemon
Demigod
Demon
Devil
Dragon
Elemental
Ennosite
Fey
Graveknight
Martial Master (based on the Champion path)
Heirophant
Lich
Marshall
Protean
Psychopomp
Rakshasa
Spirits
Sahkil
Swarm-That-Walks
Titan
Trickster
Vampire
Velstrac
I am also considering adding in Ooze and perhaps 1 or 2 other archetypes, though I don't plan to add significantly more content than that. I have also reworked a substantial portion of the mythic feats, changed up Surge, and removed the concept of "points of mythic power" in favor of frequency limits; my playtest revealed that mythic stuff shouldn't be limited to 2 times per day for a large portion of character's lifespan.
Each of these comes with its own modifications of the mythic rules, access to new and old feats, and/or focus spells. Perhaps more enticing to some, many of these also have a new high level feat with a new trait: transformation.
If any of the above interest you (or if you want to know other ways I've adopted the system to play better in lower levels), please ask me anything. I have quite a few awesome thematic aspects; I think each of these archetypes will sufficiently carry their flavor and mechanical promise.
As for the next steps, I am mostly working on editing pass-throughs for spelling, grammar, and formatting. I may or may not splurge to add significant art assets. Aside from this book, I am currently converting Wrath of the Righteous to 2E and making it work with this edition of the mythic rules. I am also working on a mythic bestiary to go with that, including all the creatures needed to run WOTR and quite a few more. My plan is to hopefully release these for free Pathfinder Infinite on all platforms (PDF, phone PDF, ePub, Virtual Tabletop, and Mobi) as well as being available through Pathbuilder (though I'm not sure on the process for that).
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This 86 page homebrew book, Mythic Advancement, is all about extending Pathfinder Second Edition's gameplay beyond level 20 to the new mythic level range of 21 to 25. D&D 3.5 players may recall a similar approach called 'Epic Levels', but unlike these rules and the mythic system from 1st Edition Pathfinder, this book attempts to create a balanced extension of 2nd Edition Pathfinder's balanced math and functional action economy (I.E., still be just as playable as a game as earlier levels of 2nd Edition).
It contains:
expanded level progressions for all currently existing classes, including APG classes
guidelines to follow to convert spellcasting archetypes, animal companions, and future classes
new rules for legendary items, including the ability to create your own artifacts
89 new mythic feats (based on mythic path abilities from 1st Edition)
New rules for heightening spells to mythic levels
New heightening effects for 92 spells and rituals
GMing tools for developing and running mythic campaigns, both the intended post-20 mythic campaigns and lower-level variants
Rules for incorporating mythic rules with: relics, lower-leveled variant mythic games, victory points, influence, research, reputation, leadership, hexploration, ability score variants, (pause for breath), dual-class PCs, free archetype PCs, ancestry paragon PCs, simplified ancestry PCs, simplified skill feat PCs, automatic bonus progression, high-quality magic item variants, proficiency without level, skill points, and stamina
Expanded tables for creature creation, including progressions up to level 30 and along with rules for building NPCs (including APG classes) and Hazards
A few examples of mythic creatures including such staples as the Whispering Tyrant and Baba Yaga herself
The philosophy behind this book is simple: keep things balanced, and keep things viable. If a character likes using fireball, they can keep casting it from level 21 to 25 without becoming obsolete by mythic heightening the spell. Likewise, if they have a favorite item, they can make that item a legendary item and eventually an artifact. This book did not set out to give a bunch of new splashy mythic abilities that would make previous aspects of the game redundant or unnecessary. There's no super 11th level wish, no better than capstone level 22 class feat.
In general, mythic abilities were only brought over if they:
could be modeled as a baseline fortune or misfortune effect (advantage and disadvantage for D&D 5E fans)
did something cool, unique, or splashy
didn't simply bully non-mythic enemies while being useless against real threats
didn't break the action economy
didn't give automatic 20s
I welcome people expanding on this and homebrewing their own mythic feats, spells, or creatures but I recommend sticking to these restrictions.
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I ran a session with a Magus in my last session. The session was a mix of exploration with two potential combat encounters.
The Magus (free archetype):
19/14/14/18/10/10
Human-Versatile|Natural Ambition/Generalist
Toughness/Fleet/Incredible Initiative
Free Archetype (Wizard)
1: Familiar
2: Spirit Sheathe/Wizard Dedication
4: Spell Parry/Basic Wizard Spellcasting
6: Martial Caster/Arcane School Spell (Force Bolt)
Weapon: +1 striking staff of divination (flaming rune)
Synthesis: Sustaining Steel
Spells:
1-True Strike (6 counting Staff), Fleet Step (2)
2-Mirror Image (1)
3-Haste (1), Shocking Grasp (1)
4-Acid Arrow(1), Phantasmal Killer (1)
Party:
Druid - 7 (bear companion)
Wizard - 7
Ranger - 7 (scorpion companion)
Sorcerer - 7
Noncombat 1: Trivial
The Magus was held captive in a room enchanted with silence to prevent spellcasting, without his staff. The party used Dispel Magic to break the enchantment, and they communicated via Message. The party agreed to let them out and unlocked the door with a hard Thievery check.
The Ranger was teleported deeper into a trap. The following combat was scaled for 4 players, as the Ranger was not present.
Combat 1: Moderate (1 level 7 cultist, 1 level 6 antipaladin, 1 level 4 Vampire Rogue)
That Magus gave the party information about a group of cultists that avoided earlier fights and that have likely have the Magus's staff. The party agreed to help them get back the staff.
The Magus cast Haste on the Druid (who acts as a melee fighter, with Wild Shape and Rage from barbarian multiclass), and the party used Avoid Notice to get close to the room that the group of cultists was hiding out in.
The Magus rolled a 21 on initiative. This put them second to last in the combat round.
The Wizard used fireball, avoiding the Vampire Spawn (which was being controlled, and who the party hoped to control later).
Before further fighting could progress, the Sorcerer attempted to communicate in Necril to intimidate the cultist. They rolled a natural 20, bringing out the skull of an Osyluth the party had slain in the previous session in another part of the hideout.
Normally I would not give an easy out to combat such as this, but under the circumstances I agreed that this group would cave under such pressure. Plot happened, and the Sorcerer went with the group of cowed cultists to find the mechanism they were using to control the undead.
The Magus did not do much to affect this fight, but the druid did have a chance to seriously mess up the Antipaladin with the extra Strike from Haste.
Noncombat 2: Moderate
The Ranger was located in a locked room with a dangerous, uncontrolled zombie. They dispatched the zombie but could not unlock the door. The way to the door was marked with several dangerous traps, which could unlock other cell doors or cast harm spells.
The Magus decided to keep their weapon drawn, while the rest of the party searched for traps or used Detect Magic. Luckily, the party spotted the traps and were able to avoid them without taking damage or releasing the zombies. A high Thievery DC later, and they rescued the ranger.
Combat 2: Severe (4 level 4 Draugr, 9 level 5 reskinned Palace Guards, 1 level 8 Cult Leader, 1 level 9 modified Greater Shadow)
The overall experience for this fight was around 360, but it was fought over multiple fronts and phases. The party minus the Sorcerer advanced to the inner sanctum, finding the Cult Leader and 3 reskinned Palace Guards blocking their path.
The Sorcerer and his new pals were heading up to join the party right as the Cult Leader threw a lever and released the rest of the monsters (minus the Greater Shadow).
The Magus rolled a natural 1 on initiative. The Wizard cast Flaming Sphere and used it to damage the zombies in the small room with the Cultist. The Ranger Tumbled Through, taking a bunch of attacks of opportunity but getting face to face with the squishy Cult Leader before they could unleash more traps. The Druid and bear fought two zombies in a larger connected room.
The Sorcerer and Friends had to hold off against 7 encroaching zombies. They prepared their Lightning Bolts and Fireballs while the antipaladin held the door. The Magus cast Fleet Step, and then made it close to Sorcerer to help them out.
Due to circumstances, they made it back to help with the main group after 2 rounds. They used Striking Spell, rolling a natural one on their Strike. They used a Hero point, and then the attack hit with a 32. The resulting acid arrow did not go off with a 19 (6 on the dice), but the zombie they were attacked went down anyway.
The ranger and wizard ended up finishing off the Cult Leader, and then the Greater Shadow thing leapt out of his corpse. It had a couple of mechanics: 1 round possession effect and a 60-foot darkness effect.
On their next round, the magus attempted to hit and rolled a 2 on their Strike. The acid arrow was lost.
The party pummeled the Greater Shadow while it possessed the Ranger, then the Barbarian, then it cast the room into Darkness (none of the martials had Darkvision, but both almost out of spell casters did). The darkness was dispelled before the Magus's next move.
The Magus used Striking Spell. They were going to use Phantasmal Killer, but decided that it might not affect the Greater Shadow. They chose instead to use Shocking Grasp.
With flanking and a 19 on the dice, the Magus was able to critically hit the Greater Shadow variant (27 AC). They rolled a 19 on Shocking Grasp. This would have missed, but the critical hit bumped it up to a hit. The staff hit did 26 damage, and the shocking grasp did 32.
The Greater Shadow was killed before the Magus could go again as the Ranger rolled a 30 on their first attack, and a natural 20 on their second for 14+38 damage.
CONCLUSION
The magus wasn't attacked throughout this session, as they kept making giant moves with Fleet Step as didn't end their turn close to any zombie. This is atypical, and was more a response to situations than a tactic. Sustaining Steel thus was not useful.
The Magus ended with 1 spell from their highest level slots. They expected more of a knockdown drag-out playstyle (True Strike>Strike>Force Bolt), but that didn't materialize. In a longer session, I expect they'd have been out of spells.
None of their spells hit, but they didn't cast all that many. The turn they were able to get a critical hit and land a spell was the highest damage turn in the session, but overall the ranger (who mostly stood still and used Twin Takedown) did by far the most damage over the course of the session at well over. The Wizard came in next, most of which was from Flaming Sphere sustained (targeting poor Reflex save zombies), and the Druid was nearly tied with that. The Sorcerer did a decent amount of damage with a few Fireballs, but spent a lot of time doing noncombat stuff away from the party.
How much things mattered:
Low spell proficiency - A lot. Even with flanking, they weren't hitting because they kept rolling 6-8 on the dice.
4-slot casting - Very little, but the session was short. They ended with a lot of lower level slots left from their staff, Wizard Dedication, and Familiar and their Focus Pool intact.
Sustaining Steel - The THP never mattered. Not moving was slightly awkward.
Spirit Sheathe - Didn't come up.
Spell Parry - Did help avoid an Enervation from one of the Cultists, which helped.
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Here are my main criticisms of the current magus, which aren't unique or anything:
It is too locked into a specific 3 action routine
it has too large a chance to miss on the spell portion, especially as that takes up most of your turn.
Striking Spell doesn't give much better damage than just Strike x2 or Strike + Electric Arc
Slide casting is too core to the class identity, and is the only non-clunky feeling option for subclass
Here is my solution:
Slide casting gets becomes a default option. All Magi can use the free Stride it grants. Synthesis options further modify Striking Spell. Additionally, the spell gets the weapon's item bonus, though cantrips are limited to a +1. This is a fortune effect. It no longer bumps the degree of success on a critical hit with weapon as a default.
1H's Synthesis keeps the way criticals bump up the spell. Arguably it could also remove the True Strike gate of making Striking Spell a fortune effect, but limit the bonus to +1.
Sustaining Spell is kept as is, gaining THP. It also allows you to replace Stride with Leap (or Long Jump/High Jump if you have the skill feat reducing those to one action), or change hands.
Shooting Star works out to 30' or the spell's range, whichever is higher. It also allows you to replace the Stride with a Reload action.
New synthesis also added:
2-Weapon Synthesis: You can split a spell a spell into two, storing half in each blade. Each does only half the damage, but it also separates out the actions (Strike + Verbal for half, Strike + Somatic for the other half probably on the other turn) and you hold the split spell for an additional turn. You can also Interact to draw a Weapon instead of Striding.
Spellbook plus weapon: You can modify the fortune effect. Instead of giving the spell an item bonus, you can add advantage to the spell attack roll or disadvantage to the save, the latter makes it a misfortune effect. You can Raise a Tome or Interact to put away or draw out your Spellbook instead of Striding.
Arcane Fists: Feat removed. Same effects minus weapon specialization. Can only be used for actual touch spells, but applies either an additional damage per Strike damage dice or applies the property runes twice on a successful fail attack or failure on save. Can Stand or Stepx2 instead of Striding.
Shield synthesis: Shield gains throwing 15 feet and returning. Can only use ranged spells on throw. Gain Shield Block. Can replace Stride with Raise Shield.
With these options, you can address a lot of the core issues all at once. Every option gets more options to spruce up the routine, while each gets something extra out of the package as well.
Thoughts?
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Right now, the assumption of most APs is that a party will level up fully from 1 to 20 over the course the adventure. At the end, those player characters have no other routes of advancement per the game rules, short of earning tons of money in downtime activities and buying items or casting rituals. Given that many would like to continue on with their characters from an AP, I think eventually there will be some demand for post-20 advancement.
What would that look like for 2E? Rather than simply talk about 1E's Mythic system, I decided to take a look at other variations from past RPGs and tried to draw some conclusions from that and the basic math and assumptions of 2E. Feel free to add your wishlist items for post-20 advancement as well, this is mainly just my rambling.
In First Edition AD&D, there was no level limit. Classes showed differing progressions for class abilities, but noted that they went up infinitely from there. The main break point between normal play and what we'd call epic-tier gameplay is the end of name titles, which was typically around level 9-10. At that point, player characters were more about building kingdoms than adventuring.
BECMI D&D (Red Box Basic) had levels up to 36, and broke levels down into tiers. 14-25 was Companion, 26-36 was Master, etc. Past-36 it had a tier called Immortals which involved literally achieving immortality and exchanging experience for power points at a rate of 10000:1. They advanced in rank rather than level, and both the plots and gameplay were essentially another game entirely.
Second Edition AD&D saw the introduction of conventional level charts that went up to 20, but again levels were actually unlimited. At 9-10, players stopped gaining full hitpoints at 9-10 (a similar break to 1E AD&D), and it even included an ominous warning about high level play:
Quote: Consummate skill and creativity are required to construct adventures for extremely powerful characters (at least adventures that consist of more than just throwing bigger and bigger monsters at the nearly unbeatable party). Very high level player characters have so few limitations that every threat must be directed against the same weaknesses. And there are only so many times a DM can kidnap friends and family, steal spell books, or exile powerful lords before it becomes old hat. Third Edition D&D had a similar system. Levels described up to 20, but going up infinitely past that point. However, it also formalized post-20 levels with the Epic Level Handbook. For the sake of the math, BAB and saves stopped increasing at level 20 to reduce large discrepancies between strong and weak progressions and the addition of a bunch of extra attacks. Most progression was about getting special abilities that eclipse what even level 20 characters could get.
Pathfinder 1E of course had Mythic tiers. This wasn't an epic level system, but it functioned in a similar headspace. Most of the time players would start this system before level 20, if they used it at all. It had a few traits I'll discuss earlier, but both the early start and the actual bound of 10 Mythic tiers set it apart from D&D games.
D&D 4E is the first variant of D&D with a level limit, but that limit was 30. There was no soft-cap at 20, but the game is broken into tiers. 11-20 was the paragon tier, with 21-30 as the epic tier.
D&D 5E tightened the tier system used in 4E down to 20 levels of play. Now 17-20 was the top end, and post-20 advancement was mainly covered through 'epic boons'.
So where does that trip though history leave Pathfinder 2E if it decides to ever come out with a post-20 system? I think before we go there, we have to discuss Pathfinder 1E's Mythic system and its issues.
The main issue the Mythic system had was that it exacerbated the rocket-tag gameplay already present in high-level pathfinder. Not going into specifics, but many builds could easily deal an extreme amount of damage at a bare minimum, though sometimes navigating that would take many minutes per round. It is very hard to make a BBEG a mythic party wouldn't obliterate in one round. And again, that's just the damage bump.
Another side of Mythic is that it excels at punching down. For example, Mythic Cloudkill can be augmented to outright kill low HD creatures without a save. In broader terms, Mythic gave many options that worked best against lower tier or level opponents (Mythical Critical Focus automatically confirming vs non-Mythic opponents). Mythic Improved Initiative essentially eliminates rolling for initiative; the higher tier that expends one use of Mythic Power will go first. This makes it hard to use a variety of Mythic levels or untiered opponents, as anything beyond -1 to +1 tier is very likely unbalanced.
So with that little roundabout aside, what can we take away from past attempts at 'epic' play?
A focus on politics, nation-building, or extraplanar adventures is recommended because it becomes hard to narratively justify normal adventures when players an opponents have abilities stronger than top level capstones
Infinite scaling doesn't really work within most math systems. All recent systems had bounds.
3.5E, 5E, and Pathfinder 1E all stopped progressing math entirely in their 'epic' ranges despite taking different approaches
Spells are a big reason why it is hard to justify simply going up to level 21+, as it would require inventing 11th level spells and higher. In 2E, Incapacitation would be another reason.
Abilities that dramatically reshape combat math or action economy create rocket-tag scenarios that are preferably avoided
Abilities that serve mainly as a tier test mainly enforce punching down, making it hard to use a wide variety of threats.
So with that said, I think PF2 would look towards a system that:
Is not a straight increase of the level cap
Does not change the basic action economy (3 + R, +1 if quickened)
Does not change incapacitation
Does not allow 'count as a natural 20' abilities
Does not allow 'count as a natural 1' abilities
Does not infinitely scale, or add 11th level spells
Works off some sort of pool
Does allow for increases in proficiency, including introducing a new-proficiency rank beyond legendary, mythic (level + 10). Probably on a limited basis, either requiring individual purchase or spending a point from a mythic pool
Might still go up in tiers, but could also consist of buying up abilities a la carte
Does allow for mythic heightening of spells
Does allow for dice size increases
Does add incapacitation effects fairly liberally to abilities that don't have them
Probably is based on classes (because it interacts with their proficiencies), but possibly based on something similar to Mythic Paths from 1E
What are your thoughts? Do you want to see such systems return for 2E at all? What traps should Paizo avoid when writing such systems?
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The APG has come out with a new addition to the summon spells: Animate Dead. One of the the options available for the 5th level version of Animate Dead is Bone Croupier.
At first glance, this bony gambler looks like a relatively standard summon with a niche theme. They have a couple interesting spells for espionage purposes in discern lies, mind reading, and illusory disguise. Decent skills that fit the theme, but a poor attack and Speed.
But the Bone Croupier has another trick up its sleeve in its unique abilities:
[url]Change of Luck Free Action (divination, misfortune, occult) Frequency once per day; Trigger A creature within 30 feet of the bone croupier attempts a check that uses a d20, but hasn’t rolled yet; Effect The bone croupier pulls on the threads of luck that bind all things. Instead of rolling its check, the target automatically gets a failure.[/url]
So once per summon, you can guarantee that a creature fails a save. There are endless uses for this. Obviously you can make sure a tough boss takes full damage from a damaging spell, but this way better when used to guarantee a debilitating effect. There are numerous spells that a boss would hate to take the failure effect of:
* Enervation
* Confusion
* Slow/Hideous Laughter
* Stinking Cloud
* Earthbind vs fliers
* Blindess/Paralyze (for success effects)
* Fear
* Hallucination
But you can also combine this with other summoned monster effects that otherwise would not have a chance of landing due to their low DCs. Many monster effects lack the incapacitation trait, even if they are similar to spells that have that trait.
Here are some summon examples that can be summoned at 5th or below:
* Pugwampi: Unluck Aura (roll twice, take worse)
* Various poisons and diseases (drained 1, sickened, etc)
* Blindheim - Spotlight (blinded 1d4 rounds)
* Wight - Drain Life (increase drained value by 1, up to drained 4)
* D'ziriak - Dazzling Burst (dazzled 1 minute
* Basidirond- Basidirond Spores (Hallucinations)
* Cloaker - Infrasonic Moan (Nausea - Sickened 2 + prone, Stupor clumsy 1, stupified 1)
Repeated Bone Croupier summons can be used to extend poisons or other save per turn conditions. Additionally, they can be used defensively to deny one attack or skill check. Finally, it can be used to finish off any creature hit by a save or die effect such as Vorpal, Phantasmal Killer or Scare to Death though these usually have the incapacitation trait.
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Hey guys, I'm a guy who has done a lot of homebrewing and information organizing for Kineticists and today I've got a homebrewed version of the class for 2E to share with you. To build some credibility, in 1st Edition I made this 229 page Google Doc for my own games.
After a couple rounds of comments and a playtest game of my own, I've finished my current work on a second edition version of Kineticists. For now, I've stripped it down to the base 5 elements: Aether, Air, Earth, Fire, Water.
I decided to do something different this time by making PDFs. I have a "pretty" version that essentially tries to do its best job looking like an official product, but what I'm going to share is something that is more printer-friendly and I believe free of any Paizo trademarked art or logos:
Homebrewed Kineticist for 2E
This PDF includes:
5 Elements
2 new 'disciplines'
115 class feats
11 kineticist-related general feats
13 kineticist-related skill feats
3 kineticist-related items
14 new spells
1 kineticist multiclass archetype
As well as full 1-20 set of class features as you would expect written in a way that should by fully functional in the game and a few minor gameplay hints, such as how to implement a kineticist in a game without a bunch of kineticist's diadems floating around to make their attack rolls work.
Most of this is retreading ground from 1E, but the disciplines are new. I've leave this by briefly explaining their purpose. When making this class, I had to decide whether the class was a 'Focus Point' class like the Playtest Oracle, or a class that tried to copy some sort of burn mechanic to cast spells. Overwhelmingly, my feedback said to keep the burn mechanic. This is problematic, because burn from 1E simply would not work in 2E for the following reasons:
* it was only mechanic viable because of Elemental Overflow, and that type of stat boost wouldn't work in 2E
* it conflicted with the short-rest/long-rest gameplay structure of 2E
* players often felt conflicted between going all-out and sitting at the happy zone of max elemental overflow benefit, leading to two different playstyles in 1E that wouldn't be ported over to 2E
This is by far the mechanic that went through the most revisions in my playtests. Generally, people seemed happy with the idea of the playstyles but it took a lot of feedback to get them to work. Right now, they consist of the following:
Cautious - You get a pool equal to 3 + Constitution (if you are afraid of the class being too SAD, make this pool draw on Wisdom in your games) that lets you cast spells without raising your burn. After that, you can use Cool Off to avoid downsides at a cost to your action economy. Later on you can use the Disrupting Vent to weaken opponents, which was added to give kineticists another 'thing to do' at a level where most casters start to heavily beat them in spell utility. This discipline is intended for newcomers to the class or for those that like 'burn as a cost', or for those that simply want to spam abilities all day.
Reckless - You can go up to Overcharged for more DAMAGE and your burn won't drop you below half health. You gain two abilities to help you get more burn more quickly, Fast Charge which lets you go up with no action economy cost while gaining some THP, and Overcharge which lets you go straight to max or maintain your maximum level of burn. Later on, you get Offsetting Ejection to weaken up creatures with resistances, because it is a little more difficult for the Burnitator 5000 to switch to a different tactic than a normal martial or caster when faced with a skeleton. This is intended for those that liked the living on the edge feeling of a high-burn kineticist in 1E and prefer 'burn as a powerup'.
When running this class, I recommend having some sort of utility handy to show the benefits and downsides to various levels of burn. I used 4 business card sized pieces of paper which had green outlines for unburned, yellow for burned, orange for blazing, and red for overcharged and effects on the front and the cooling off conditions at the back. I kept the cards stabled together.
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Now the book is likely set in stone and ready to go to publishers, I'd like to see whether or not PF1 style archetypes made it into the final build. To clarify what I mean, I am referring to archetypes that:
Start at level 1
Swap class features (not feats)
Stack with archetypes that don't affect the same features
It was implied during the early discussions about archetypes that this style may make it into the final version of the game but the PF2 style (feat-swapping) archetypes is all that appears in the playtest because they were new ideas that needed significantly more testing.
However, since then I haven't heard any word about PF1 style archetypes. As far as I know haven't been given descriptions of possible archetypes, or received further information clarifying that they would be in the final version of the Corebook.
I hope that these do make it into the final Corebook, because they represent a different thematic idea and dramatically increase the modularity of the game. The thematic difference is that feat-swapping archetypes represent something that you pick up along your journeys, while feature-swapping archetypes represent a variation from the base class that can be seen at the very start of a character's adventure.
An Urban Barbarian isn't a Barbarian that walked into a city after fighting rats out in the countryside, they are a Barbarian whose city-based upbringing is present at level 1 and guides them to an entirely different way of evolving as a barbarian.
In terms of options, this also gives players a way to interact with features they may not match character concepts. For instance, a feature-swapping Urban Barbarian could might only have Light Armor Proficiency but might get more skills. Instead of getting Juggernaut and Improved Juggernaut, they may instead get similar feats for Reflex saves.
To get similar changes out of a feat-swapping system would require a substantial investment of feats, forcing most early level Barbarians with an Urban Dedication to build in similar ways. Instead of being able to build one Urban Barbarian that multiclasses into Rogue and another that picks up Barbarian class feats and stacks another feature-swapping archetype, you would end up with just lvl1 Barbarian, lvl2 Urban Dedication, lvl4 Urban Skills ... a dramatic reduction in the number of ways to build a character with that theme.
So again, I'd like to see some clarity on whether feature-swapping archetypes made it in, and if they were left out whether they are being considered for a supplemental product.
For completion's sake, I feel that any given class should have the ability to reach legendary in any given proficiency. Not easily mind you, and not necessarily from class features.
Instead, I'd like to see an ultra-high level general feat that works as follows:
Legend - 19 - General, Skill - Master in (X)
Your proficiency in (X) increases to Legendary.
So let's take a Rogue. This Rogue is Dwarf with high Constitution, with a background as a Barkeep. As he levels up, he trains his Alcohol (Lore) skill as high as possible. After his brother is killed in an early adventure, he becomes more violent, taking the barbarian dedication, eventually getting up to Master in Fortitude thanks to the level 12 feat in that tree.
And then, he stops. The then level 20 Rogue/Barbarian that has brewed for Cayden Cailean himself is not capable, under any means magical or otherwise, of reaching Legendary Fortitude. No, he will always do worse than a full-Barbarian of the same level.
Adding this feat would give a lot of flavor to high-level campaigns (note: it does not have the "Can take multiple times" special text, even if you can somehow get another general feat). And while giving legendary proficiency in weapons is probably too strong to leave easily available (why play a fighter when a Wizard can dip a feat and get the same "BAB"), I think it would be okay with enough of a feat tree to climb that it becomes less of a dip and more of a focused sacrifice.
I'm not sure if the feat also needs to give the "if you would critically fail at an X save, you fail instead" text, as it is primarily a flavor thing, not a feat intended to be as strong as Evasiveness et. al.
I see the following as "the path" to reaching master status in each proficiency, in order to qualify for Legend
Perception - Alertness + Master Spotter
Fortitude - Great Fortitude + Juggernaut's Fortitude
Reflex - Lightning Reflexes + Evasiveness
Will - Iron Will + Mental Prowess (Bard level 8 feat)
A single weapon - Weapon Proficiency + Weapon Expert + Another feat that gives master proficiency to a single weapon in a group you are an expert in
A single armor - Armor Proficiency / Paladin Dedication + Armor Expert + an equivalent feat to the above weapon feat
Unarmed - Expert Strikes + unarmed version of the 'weapon master' feat
Unarmored - Unarmored Expertise + armored version of the 'weapon master' feat
Skills - 3 + 7 skill increases
So in general, I think it should take 4 feats Perception or save Legend, for 5-6 feats for weapon Legend, and 6-7 feats for heavy/medium/light/unarmored Legend. Less for a character getting abilities that their class naturally advances in.
While this may cause some math issues at the topmost end of play, I think this is a cool way to make high-level characters unique and flavorful. One high level Halfling Alchemist may train to legendary status as a sling staff user, while another becomes an unmatched mental savant with legendary Will.
It is less about what it changes mathematically, more about the finishing touches it gives to a character. I think even just having the option will open up a lot of concepts.
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The Party (names redacted to protect the innocent:
Wave 1:
Human Paladin/Grey Maiden 'The Tank/Healer'
Dwarf Druid 'The Blaster'
'Elf' Monk (not 100% sure) 'The DPS'
Wave 2:
Human Cleric 'The Mad Healer'
Dwarf Druid 'The Blaster'
'Elf' Monk 'The DPS'
Half-Elk Fighter 'Tridents!'
Rogue/Wizard/Fighter 'The Shank'
Wave 3:
Human Paladin/Grey Maiden 'The Tank/Healer'
Dwarf Druid 'The Blaster'
'Elf' Monk 'The DPS'
Goblin Rogue/Wizard/Fighter 'The Shank'
We ran this over a period of 2.5 sessions. Each session had different compositions due to scheduling conflicts, which likely inflated our total HP pool. Items were split among the original party members, except for ranged ammunition which was taken by the Rogue.
Overall, we took roughly 1500-2000 damage over the course of the session, ending as predicted in a wipe (though a few changes might have seen the party all the way through). The party used all the tools available to it: 4 channel heals, 10+ spell slots of Heal, 6 lay on hands, the entirety of the monk's resonance pool on Holy crits, every offensive spell of the Druid, every healing potion given, etc.
Preamble:
When it came to dividing up the items, the monk took the goggles of night, the holy rune, and the ring of climbing. The paladin took the slippers of spider climb, and the lesser ring of fire resistance. The rest went to the Druid except for consumables, which were split.
The party burned down the stable with Produce Flame. Party members made checks to determine that the stained glass windows would provide a benefit by passing the Religion check, but never realized what it did exactly and never actually utilized the benefit. They found the extra healing potions.
In the 10 minutes the party had to explore, they decided it would be best to use 2 Wall of Stones to cut off entrances and prevent easy access down the stairs. They did some scouting of the room, and decided that the climbing items and the high ceiling were tactically important (they were). I made the call that there were some rafters about 4" across near the top of the ceiling. The party scouted around the graveyard and discovered that it was desecrated. The Druid, who had not prepared Light, decided it was best to use a Searing Light to activate the stained glass, not realizing it would wear out (I allowed the use of the higher level spell to activate the glass's effect). The monk, who was a worshipper of Desna, did find the statue's benefit and the rest the party crowded the statue for the buff.
And then time ran out and the first event started.
Total Resources burned: 10ish Resonance, two 5th-level spells, 1 3rd level spell.
Event 1:
The Monk and the Druid did very good on their Perception checks for initiative. This was a consistent theme of the night, as both were Wisdom based classes with Expert Perception, items to benefit Perception, and even Incredible Initiative. The Paladin went last.
The Druid uses Stormwind Flight to avoid the demons. This is another recurring theme. Most of the demons lacked ranged weapons, and while they were effective at getting to the martials they lacked real options for dealing with a flying spellcaster.
The Monk was able to down their enemy very quickly with the help of critical hits and the holy rune/cold iron strike dealing consistent extra damage. Against the lower level demons, the extra 10-15 damage per hit and ease of critting made the Monk a consistent strong performer, especially as the night wore on.
The Druid a Tempest Surge on round one, dealing okay but not great damage. On the Paladin's turn, they used Automatic Knowledge to make a religion check and determined that the Slaver Demons were weak to Acid. The Druid spent the rest of the fight spamming acid flask, even getting persistent damage from a critical hit.
The Paladin spent most rounds going Blade of Justice > Strike > Raise Shield. As they were the only combatant the demons could easily reach thanks the the monks climbing and the Druid's Flight, they took a little damage as the demons swarmed the easiest target, but their ultra-high AC made that a bit of a trap. They didn't lose much health, and burned one Lay on Hands after the fight.
Total resources burned: 1 Lay on Hands, 3 SP
Event 2
The Treachery Demons were a very difficult fight, and the closest the party came to a wipe before the final event. The Monk and Druid again went first and the Paladin last.
The Treachery Demons each came in close to a melee fighter, on opposite ends of the church. This is a little bit of a misplay on my part; I read the Demons as Medium sized spellcasters but they likely could not have fit on the western end of the church as giant beetles. I realized that it is difficult to get an idea of size from reading the new text boxes, you have to pay attention to the traits box.
As one could expect, Reverse Gravity was extremely effective in this fight versus two martials. As the ceiling was 10' above the cylinder, the martials did not even fall all the way to solid ground, instead being suspended in the air unable to fight back. The Paladin near the rubble was able to Grab Edge with Acrobatics, but the Monk was essentially taken out of the fight.
The Druid made the decision to use their last 5th level spell slot to cast Elemental Form - Fire. As the monk chose a Ring of Fire Resistance, they were essentially immune to the damage of the form, and the speed allowed the Druid to head across the church to the eastern side and 'rescue' the monk with a grapple. The Paladin was able to keep the western Treachery Demon busy; thankfully they had Defensive and One-Handed Climber, so they dropped their shield and focused on holding on and readying an attack to disrupt movement/teleporting.
Again, the Paladin's Automatic Knowledge came into play. As you can guess from the choice of Elemental Form, they had called out in the first round that the Demon was an Envy demon, weak to Fire! The Druid and the Monk were able to kill the first Treachery Demon over 2-3 rounds; it managed to land one Rake that did a lot of damage, but its Confusion spells did not have a good target vs the two Wisdom-based characters.
The other Treachery Demon played hard to get, exploiting at-will Dimension Door and Mirror Image to attack and then get behind the Reverse Gravity cylinders. However, the monk and the druid were speedsters and in the church they could just barely keep up with the constant teleporting and get chip damage in.
Had the druid not spent a turn switching sides, it would have been likely been a very quick fight the other way, with the treachery demons picking off the martials at their leisure. Instead, after 6-7 rounds they were able to take this wave down.
The toad demon did not matter much in this encounter, as it was killed rather early thanks to crit. failing vs Tempest Surge.
Resources used: 4 SP, 1 5th level spell, 1 2nd level spell (Flaming Sphere), 1 3rd level spell (Fireball)
Event 3
The monk and druid go first again. The Paladin goes before most of the blood demons this time, who stream in 3 each on the left and right side. The Druid Cone of Colds the ones on the left, and Paladin begins to fight through the ones on the right, which begin by spamming a few fields of Darkness knowing the human Paladin couldn't see. The monk went outside to slow down the Slime Demon.
After a while, the Monk got tired of the Cloudkill damage and decided to head back indoors. This was probably good for the Slime Demon, as it really would have preferred a ranged weapon user to Slime trap or a melee user with a lower save DC to grab.
This is when the Monk discovered the side-effect of Holy. They were easily critting on the much lower level Blood Demons, making them easy ways to restore health. He finished off the ones on the left, and the druid used another Cone of Cold on the ones on the right. The Paladin had taken a decent amount of damage, but the two powerful cold spells had left this a 3v1 versus the Slime Trap, who was easily beaten down despite critting the druid (who responded by bringing the still up Flaming Sphere over; that thing has duration-concentration with no 1 min. qualifier).
Resources used: 2 6th level spells, 2 lay on hands, 2 resonance
At the end of the first wave, the biggest issue is that that Druid was not frugal with their spells. Though they sometimes maintained crazy efficiency, in the first and last fight they used almost the entirety of the high-power spells. At this point, none of the healing potions had been used, the Paladin still had 5-6 more SP to use to Heal/Lay on Hands, and the Monk hadn't dipped into SP yet for Wholeness of Body.
At the end of this wave the Monk was down 100 HP, the Paladin 125, and the Druid about 30.
Wave 2, Event 4
The Paladin went off during this wave to try to contact a local regiment of crusaders in case they needed aid. In reality, this was a week after Wave 1 and this was a retcon explaining where the Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue came from. During this event, the Paladin was out.
The Cleric used the time in between waves to cast Heal 3 times with Channel Energy. This mostly topped off the party before the event started.
When the event hit, the Wisdom-based classes again proved quick on the update. They decided to hit the wraiths at the graveyard, and struggled to get through their resistance without a ghost touch weapon. No one realized that the fight would be significantly easier in the church (the Cleric had Light, unlike the Druid).
While the church had the party acting quite tactical and exploiting the geography, this wave mostly consisted of the party brute-forcing their way through the enemies on desecrated land while taking many high level AoEs.
Other than the top-off heals, the party avoiding taking major damage or using resources against the wraiths, thanks to some timely critical hits by the monk.
Resources Burned: 3 Channel Healing Heals, 10ish Resonance (new characters joining)
Event 5
The party was still around the graveyard, having lined up in the hole near the eastern wall. The lich went first, critting on its Perception roll. It cast a Cone of Cold, catching 3 members of the party.
The Druid used their last 6th level spell, Dragon Form, to turn into a large Black Dragon. This allowed them to outspeed the Lich, and they got lucky on positioning several times with their Acid Breath. One ghost mage was crit by the monk, who healed off the blow with Holy. The trident thrower and rogue mostly kited around the edge of the graveyard, while Cleric spent the combat throwing up max-level Heal after max-level Heal (Healing Font/Channel Energy) to keep the party alive through 2 Cone of Colds and an Exsanguination).
The dragon managed to Grapple the Lich, and chose not maintain its flight, sending both of them to ground for 40 damage. The players avoided using a single spell on the Lich's Counterspell list thanks to spell list and having already burned through their higher level options.
Resources Burned: 6th level spell, 1 Channel Energy, 4 SP (Healing Font), 1 Resonance, 2 SP (Wholeness of Body) after the fight
Then came the Demilich ...
Event 6
The party's martials stayed in the graveyard through this fight, killing the zombies. The ultra-weak zombies mostly provided fuel for the monk, who healed 4 times throughout the fight with Holy procs.
The Druid decided to let the dragon form subside so they could cast their other spells after seeing the Demilich's telepathic storm and having used their Breath Attack.
No player decided to roll Recall Knowledge vs the banshees, deciding that every action was necessary to power down the Demilich. The lich began the fight with a Wail of the Banshees, which did remarkably little thanks to the parties high Will saves. Staying near the Demilich was a remarkably bad idea, and probably should have led to a wipe as they then got hit with ... two MORE Wail of the Banshees. This reduced the parties effective health by about 200, and resulted in the Cleric spamming heal every round of the fight.
The Druid used a critical Searing Light to help clear off the Demilich, who did take a decent amount of damage from the Heal spells and stayed in melee to get the most out of its telekinetic storm. It even bit for 3 damage once. It seemed like the intent of the Demilich was to use Trap Soul on a living creature, but no creature entered Dying (the 15d10 from the 3 Wails just wasn't enough, and the Drained was rather incremental); perhaps Trap Soul was intended to be usable on someone that wasn't dying. They picked up the Lich's Greater Staff of Fire after this fight.
The Demilich cast Polar Ray on the second round of combat, but missed on a 3 and then died. The Banshees took 4 more rounds of fighting to be cleared off, mostly because they had constant concealment and the party never used the resistance-halving off the church. Contingency did not matter in this fight, though that was a lucky coincidence.
The Rogue was not a good pick for this fight. They had dipped deep into Wizard for Invisibility casting, and Fighter for Combat Grab. Though they managed to make the Demilich flat-footed, standing in the storm most opened them up to being AoEed. They used their one True Strike early on in the fight. They picked up the Lich's dropped scrolls after this fight.
The Trident user managed to avoid most of that. They used Double/Triple Shot or Double Slice to effectively deal a lot of damage, though unfortunately it was heavily resisted.
Resources Burned: 4 SP (Healing Font), 6 SP (Wholeness of Body), 4 Resonance (Holy), 3rd level spell, 3 1st level spells (Heal), 2nd-6th level spell (Heal), 2 resonance (healing potions), 2 Hero Points
The Cleric had prepared a LOT of heals, and it helped. It shows the tremendous power of the Heal spell in this playtest. The party did things the wrong way, took a ton of AoE damage, and still survived thanks to crazy amounts of healing.
At the end of the day, the Cleric and Fighter were swapped for the returning Paladin, who had found no surviving members of the crusading group. We were down to 2 casts of Greater Invisibility from the Rogue, 3-4 SP from the Paladin, 2 SP and 4 Resonance for the Monk, and 2nd and 4th level spells from the Druid.
Wave 3, Event 7
The Paladin and Monk stayed on the ground. The Rogue, who had taken the cold iron bolts and explosive ammunition, was accompanied by the Druid in the rafters.
The Boar Demons continued a trend of Demons without good ways of hitting ranged combatants. The Monk/Druid went first, then Rogue, then Boar Demons, then Paladin.
The demons did not see the Rogue, so their Light of Avarice found very little to hit. They mostly went bashing on the wall of stone to try to enter the catacombs or mauling the Paladin. The Druid helpfully cast Wall of Fire on the Demon as near the stairway, hitting the Paladin as well.
The Monk, Rogue, and Druid laid waste to one Boar Demon relatively quickly, using cold iron, holy fists, and Acid Splash. The high saves, and CN + Evasiveness of the Rogue made the Boar Demon's sole ranged option (Divine Decree) rather worthless.
The Paladin however got to face the full brunt of a level 14 melee monster, and went into dying. In a wall of fire. The party did nothing, and so she died along with the parties second best source of good damage and major remaining healing.
Then the other 3 quickly killed the other Boar Demon and retreated back up to safety.
Resources Expended: 3 Hero points (bad rolls), Paladin, 2 SP (Wholeness of Body), 4 cold iron bolts, 4th level spell (greater invisibility).
Event 8
The best cantrip in this playtest is Electric Arc, even if it is really oddly worded. Luckily both the Rogue/Wizard and the Druid had access to it, as the toad demons were all weak to it.
The Rogue exploited the remaining time with the Greater Invisibility to make good work of one Toad Demon. The Druid used their 4th level spell slot to Fly (they complained of the lack of good options in this slot a lot); the Toad Demon's again failed to have major ways to deal with this. They could grab melee fighters (and did do a number of the Rogue once they found them with Seek), but again the only ranged option was Divine Decree vs a party with strong saves.
Even with dimension door, they struggled to deal with the flying druid and climbing monk. It took a long time, but the party essentially played 'the floor is lava/swamp' and electric arced the demons to death.
Resources used: 4th level spell (Fly), 2 SP (Wholeness of Body), 4th level spell (Greater Invisibility), remainder of resonance thanks to chugging health pots after the fight
Event 9
Oh boy. So first off, some mistakes. We ran this late in the night and didn't have the mental energy to check our spells or the demon's reaction. So we thought Ray of Frost was 30' instead of 60', a major factor in this fight. We also thought that the demon's Tail Whip was a double plus Attack of Opportunity that triggered even on Step/Stand as they had the move trait.
This led to a fight where we had no higher level spell slots to hurt the level 16 demon, and struggled to land blows thanks to the level difference. We started the fight as good as we could; the Monk rolled great on initiative, the Mutilation Demon rolled a nat 1 on Reflex vs the 6th level Cone of Cold of the Rogue (scroll).
But the lack of healing or strong remaining spells, and the weakness-hitting cantrip requiring us to go into the demon's 30' quick/paralysis zone made this encounter impossible.
We did exploit the height difference again, but with one big difference: this demon flies. The board demons did as well, but this one more quickly exploited the party's tactic. It retreated outside the building, then Dimension Door'ed through the ceiling above where the party was climbing. It then fell on them, taking and dealing 50' of fall damage, but more importantly getting everyone in its kill zone but the rogue.
It then exploited its level difference on attacks and super Attack of Opportunity to prevent escapes, quickly killing the Monk. Funnily enough, the Druid did nearly 80 points of damage from Storm Retribution as they used the new Dying rules and Hero Points to get back up a few times and tanked quite a few critical hits before going down.
The Rogue decided that they weren't really all the keen on dying to the protect a group of heroes, and bailed hoping the demon would care more about the ritual below than their life. They were right, and were vindicated when the party below returned to the surface with the White Axiom.
Resources used: Monk, Druid, 6th level scroll of Cone of Cold, the remainder of our Spell Points, 4 hero points (given relatively liberally throughout the waves).
Takeaways:
* The party exploited physical geometry, but failed to take advantage of the resistance halving of the church in wave 2
* Holy healed the monk over 100 HP, mostly versus weak mobs
* Cantrips dealt the majority of the damage vs the demons
* The demons, minus the treachery and mutilation demons, lacked good ways to deal with high saves or a height advantage
* The Cleric had 13 6th level heals + 6 others. They could have healed north of 1500 damage, which was probably too much.
* The high wisdom classes meant the party reliably went first
* Assurance + Automatic Knowledge meant the party usually came into play with knowledge of weaknesses
* Had the Paladin stayed alive and the Druid saved the Dragon Form for the last battle (White) they may have beaten the Mutilation Demon thanks to healing, consistent damage from the monk, and rarely being truly challenged by earlier demons
* Persistent good/fire/acid made certain demons easy. There aren't easy ways to get persistent cold for later fights and no one picked a +2 weapon with frost, a big reason why the last fight was harder
* I could have seen a wipe at the Treachery Demon, the Lich, the Demilich, or the Mutilation demon, but we avoided the domino scenario till the end.
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This isn't about power levels, though those are also a concern with the second edition alchemist. This is about the conceptual identity of the class. In second edition, EVERY Alchemist:
* Relies on performing quick alchemy in battle
* Uses bombs as the primary source of their damage
* Gets mutagens at level 5
* Starts mixing potions at 13
That means each and every alchemist is split between bombs, elixirs, and the more specific cousin to elixirs in mutagens. And the concept for the latter two doesn't even come online until level 5 or 13. Want to be a Dr. Jekyl style mutant that focuses on natural attacks? Sorry, you must use bombs at levels 1, 2, 3, and 4.
This is nearly identical to a problem identified with Druids in 1st edition. Each and every Druid (minus archetypes) marched through the same class progression. Wanted to be a Wild Shape focused Druid? Wait till level 4, like everyone else. The class overlapped themes of elemental destruction, turning into animals, calling on animals for aid, and controlling plants.
Second edition fixed this overlap by giving Druids a level 1 choice between orders. Now you could be a Storm Druid, or a Leaf Druid, or a Druid that started off focusing on Animals and later learned how to become one.
I think Alchemist should be treated the same way. At level 1, give them a choice between four distinct "styles" of Alchemist, each of which grants a level 1 Alchemist feat (with bonuses if you are in the style). The four styles I think are obvious are:
* Bombs
* Mutagens
* Poisons
* Constructs
The bomb feat would give an expanded resonance pool that could only be used to craft bombs. But if you are in the style, you would get either a significantly larger pool or even the ability to make bombs for no resonance cost. Later bomb feats would give additional benefits to grenadiers, for example Smoke Bomb might be a later feat that either spreads or requires a save to avoid giving the sick condition.
The mutagen feat would allow alchemists to treat Mutagens as if they were 4 levels lower and common for the purposes of crafting, though the mutagens would only be usable by the alchemist. But if you are in the style, you also can store the mutagens in your body for more rapid transformations (though storing them in your body means they may activate by themselves if you take damage!). Later feats would expand on mutagens in ways similar to what the alchemist has already.
The poison feat I'm imagining gives the same bonus pool to resonance as the bomb feat. However, those in the style would learn how to make and apply poisons with one hand in a single action. Further feats would allow alchemists to control the dosage, making an elixir that functions as a healing tincture if applied to an ally or a deadly poison if applied to an enemy.
The crafting feat would give an alchemical familiar. However, those in the style get a mechanical companion! This would in all ways be similar to a young animal companion, and Alchemists would get additional feats to improve their constructs at the rate of the Ranger. But they would get some additional love as well. For instance, a higher level feat might allow them to store a potion in one of their constructs, letting their alchemical familiar deliver a healing potion or even letting their construct use a dragon's breath potion.
These are just examples of how I see such a division working. The key concept, however, is separate and I believe stands on its own. And it isn't mine! Paizo has already used it to great effect with the Barbarian, Bard and Druid, three of my favorite classes from the playtest. I think they should sincerely think about doing the same with alchemist, no matter what else they try to do to actually balance the class.
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