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Dear Nethys,
I have a few questions about equipment. First of all, I'm assuming that a shield can be carried on one's back, or attached to a backpack, and that it takes a move action to ready said shield from this location. But how long would it take to put it back?
Secondly, are there magical vests and vestments that do not take up a body slot? I have heard rumors of such things.
~Spellcasting Paladin
Dear Nethys,
I have a few questions about equipment. First of all, I'm assuming that a shield can be carried on one's back, or attached to a backpack, and that it takes a move action to ready said shield from this location. But how long would it take to put it back?
Secondly, are there magical vests and vestments that do not take up a body slot? I have heard rumors of such things.
~Spellcasting Paladin
A handy haversack can take most shields as a standard or move action.
I would argue under normal circumstances it would take a full action to attach one to a mundane backpack.
If you have a particular mundane device specifically designed to grab it and take hold of it, I would argue that it would have the same effects as a handy haversack, except you can be disarmed of the shield specifically.
Page 550. An item that doesn't take up a slot costs double. This item can basically "go" anywhere, but doesn't take up a slot. Although it might look strange to have one vest over another, because it takes up no slot, it's immaterial, really.
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Here's another one- When pricing anything other than armor and shields, mithral costs 500gp/lb. Items made from mithral weigh 1/2 their regular weight. When I figure the cost, am I using the original pre-mithral weight, or the new made-of-mithral weight? Logic would say the new weight because that's how much mithral I'm buying to make my item.
This comes up because I wanted a mithral dagger. A dagger normally weighs 1 lb so I figured a mithral one would weigh 1/2 pound. 1/2 lb of mithral costs 250gp (and includes the price of masterwork), plus 2 for the base price of a dagger. That seems like 252gp for a mithral dagger.
Wait! A regular masterwork dagger costs 302! And the mithril one is harder, lighter and counts as silver vs. damage resistance. Mechanics-wise that's all wrong. But logically, why would I pay for a pound of mithril (500gp) when I'm only using 1/2?
Here's another one- When pricing anything other than armor and shields, mithral costs 500gp/lb. Items made from mithral weigh 1/2 their regular weight. When I figure the cost, am I using the original pre-mithral weight, or the new made-of-mithral weight? Logic would say the new weight because that's how much mithral I'm buying to make my item.
This comes up because I wanted a mithral dagger. A dagger normally weighs 1 lb so I figured a mithral one would weigh 1/2 pound. 1/2 lb of mithral costs 250gp (and includes the price of masterwork), plus 2 for the base price of a dagger. That seems like 252gp for a mithral dagger.
Wait! A regular masterwork dagger costs 302! And the mithril one is harder, lighter and counts as silver vs. damage resistance. Mechanics-wise that's all wrong. But logically, why would I pay for a pound of mithril (500gp) when I'm only using 1/2?
because it includes the masterwork cost so you end up paying 300 gp for the master working and 200 gp for the mithril so you are still geting a discount. also i would base the weight on the pre reduction weight just to keep the items more expensive(aka more rare)
In other words, Mithral is hard enough to work that the act of working it into anything makes it masterwork?
i would say yes
form a rp standpoint it takes a lot of skill to work mithral and the other rare materials. heck i would almost have the pc's have to track down a specialty smith to have the item crafted.
Here's another one- When pricing anything other than armor and shields, mithral costs 500gp/lb. Items made from mithral weigh 1/2 their regular weight. When I figure the cost, am I using the original pre-mithral weight, or the new made-of-mithral weight? Logic would say the new weight because that's how much mithral I'm buying to make my item.
This comes up because I wanted a mithral dagger. A dagger normally weighs 1 lb so I figured a mithral one would weigh 1/2 pound. 1/2 lb of mithral costs 250gp (and includes the price of masterwork), plus 2 for the base price of a dagger. That seems like 252gp for a mithral dagger.
Wait! A regular masterwork dagger costs 302! And the mithril one is harder, lighter and counts as silver vs. damage resistance. Mechanics-wise that's all wrong. But logically, why would I pay for a pound of mithril (500gp) when I'm only using 1/2?
When you are making a mithral item out of something other than armor or shield, the masterwork cost is *NOT* included in the price of the mithral (like it is for armor/shield). But, you do use the actual weight of the mithral itself.
Mithral Dagger :
Mithral Cost : 1/2lb = 250gp
Masterowork Cost : 300gp
Final Cost : 550gp
You have to break out the mithral and masterwork costs seperately because different types of items have different masterwork costs. For example, Thieves Tools cost 30gp, Masterwork Thieves Tools cost 100gp and weight 2lbs. So, Masterwork cost for theives tools is 70gp. A mithral set would weigh 1 lb, and cost 570gp.
Here's another one- When pricing anything other than armor and shields, mithral costs 500gp/lb. Items made from mithral weigh 1/2 their regular weight. When I figure the cost, am I using the original pre-mithral weight, or the new made-of-mithral weight? Logic would say the new weight because that's how much mithral I'm buying to make my item.
This comes up because I wanted a mithral dagger. A dagger normally weighs 1 lb so I figured a mithral one would weigh 1/2 pound. 1/2 lb of mithral costs 250gp (and includes the price of masterwork), plus 2 for the base price of a dagger. That seems like 252gp for a mithral dagger.
Wait! A regular masterwork dagger costs 302! And the mithril one is harder, lighter and counts as silver vs. damage resistance. Mechanics-wise that's all wrong. But logically, why would I pay for a pound of mithril (500gp) when I'm only using 1/2?
When you are making a mithral item out of something other than armor or shield, the masterwork cost is *NOT* included in the price of the mithral (like it is for armor/shield). But, you do use the actual weight of the mithral itself.
Mithral Dagger :
Mithral Cost : 1/2lb = 250gp
Masterowork Cost : 300gp
Final Cost : 550gpYou have to break out the mithral and masterwork costs seperately because different types of items have different masterwork costs. For example, Thieves Tools cost 30gp, Masterwork Thieves Tools cost 100gp and weight 2lbs. So, Masterwork cost for theives tools is 70gp. A mithral set would weigh 1 lb, and cost 570gp.
Weapons do too. Quote from the PRD: "Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below."
And I'd say you use the pre-mithral weight. It's a price factor for making it out of mithral, not for buying bulk mithral. But that's me.
Weapons do too. Quote from the PRD: "Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below."
And I'd say you use the pre-mithral weight. It's a price factor for making it out of mithral, not for buying bulk mithral. But that's me.
But you see,
We are discussing weapons and equipment that have no price given below. You will not find 'Mithral Dagger' below. The masterwork price is only included when you have a pre-generated item. Otherwise, you have to include it yourself.And I can't agree with the other piece either. The price of mithral is stated as '500gp per pound'. So the mithral costs are 500gp per pound. It makes no sense to charge 500gp per original pound of the object, if that were the case, it would say '500gp per original pound of the object, but cut weight in half for mithral'. Very cumbersome.
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When you are making a mithral item out of something other than armor or shield, the masterwork cost is *NOT* included in the price of the mithral (like it is for armor/shield). But, you do use the actual weight of the mithral itself.
Mithral Dagger :
Mithral Cost : 1/2lb = 250gp
Masterowork Cost : 300gp
Final Cost : 550gp
Okay, THIS makes more sense to me. "Masterwork price included" referres to the named items - light, medium, heavy armor and shields. "Masterwork price included" does not refer to cost of bulk mithral; it must be added @300gp as usual.
Having the price of bulk mithral in the same little chart is confusing, but I'm glad to get away from the "original weight" bit. I'd like you to make me a 2 oz gold ring. Here are 4 oz.
When you are making a mithral item out of something other than armor or shield, the masterwork cost is *NOT* included in the price of the mithral (like it is for armor/shield). But, you do use the actual weight of the mithral itself.
Mithral Dagger :
Mithral Cost : 1/2lb = 250gp
Masterowork Cost : 300gp
Final Cost : 550gpOkay, THIS makes more sense to me. "Masterwork price included" referres to the named items - light, medium, heavy armor and shields. "Masterwork price included" does not refer to cost of bulk mithral; it must be added @300gp as usual.
Having the price of bulk mithral in the same little chart is confusing, but I'm glad to get away from the "original weight" bit. I'd like you to make me a 2 oz gold ring. Here are 4 oz.
Yep,
But I think it was that way in SRD, so it's not really a lump on the guys at Paizo. I do wish they'd noticed it and had time/room/etc to address it. But like any game system, there's a limit to just how much detail you can go into. The rumor is that sometime next year there will be an equipment book, I'm hoping that will clear up this stuff (or that the official errata will).
On a related note, one thing that always bothered me about Mithral was, if you make it into a weapon, it doesn't affect the damage of the weapon. That kind of makes sense with a rapier or a dagger, both are dex type weapons (IE: You're not doing damage by slamming it into someone, you're doing damage by poking little holes in vital organs).
But,
Take a greatsword, a greataxe, any maul or mace, any bludgeoning weapon, a long sword, anything that is two-handed, or anything with a haft.
All of them should do reduced damage. All gain part (or in the case of the Greats or Maces, most) of their damage from the fact they are a big heavy piece of metal slamming into you. If you cut the weight in half, you cut down how much damage you are doing. Which would you rather be hit by? A 2lb aluminum hammer or a 4lb steel hammer or an 8lb lead hammer (all the same size physically)? A mithral great sword is basically like a big aluminum baseball bat. It still hurts, but it's not something that would do damage through full plate mail (hit a 1/4 inch thick steel sheet with an aluminum baseball bat, and once your hands and arms stop stinging from the vibration, you'll find a small dent on the steel and a big one on the bat).
And as to hafted weapons, not only should they do less, but, they don't list the weight of the head versus the haft, so you have to guess on how much it costs for a mithral or adamantium or whatever weapon with a haft.
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I would assume that someone who works with mithral would find ways to get around the weight reduction and still allow the weapon to deal the same amount of damage, perhaps he puts some mercury in the blades (like the mercurial longsword from 3.0). But I think part of the thing about mithral is that it's supposed to be just as good as steel, but significantly lighter.
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I would assume that someone who works with mithral would find ways to get around the weight reduction and still allow the weapon to deal the same amount of damage, perhaps he puts some mercury in the blades (like the mercurial longsword from 3.0). But I think part of the thing about mithral is that it's supposed to be just as good as steel, but significantly lighter.
I would also guess that the faster, easier swings would make it easier to target certain more vital/vulnerable areas than a standard heavy weapon that is more about whacking the heck out of something. I'm sure someone will dispute with physics of mass vs. velocity or some such but it's a game dammit!
Weapons do too. Quote from the PRD: "Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below."But you see,
We are discussing weapons and equipment that have no price given below. You will not find 'Mithral Dagger' below. The masterwork price is only included when you have a pre-generated item. Otherwise, you have to include it yourself.
I bolded the part you seemed to miss - they are always masterwork. And the price is given on the table, it simply isn't broken down into weapon categories - it's done by the weight of a weapon. Otherwise we'd have light, one-handed, and two-handed prices for simple, martial, and exotic, and you'd have to wonder why things that have two or more times the mass (ie., weight) cost the same to make mithral just because they're in the same proficiency category.
And I can't agree with the other piece either. The price of mithral is stated as '500gp per pound'. So the mithral costs are 500gp per pound. It makes no sense to charge 500gp per original pound of the object, if that were the case, it would say '500gp per original pound of the object, but cut weight in half for mithral'. Very cumbersome.
This, on the other hand, is just an issue of interpretation. My assumption is that they have the price modifier per pound so that you look at the weight in pounds, multiple that by 500 gp, and there you go. That seems to be how modifiers tend to work in these sorts of tables, but unless a designer comes forth with an answer one way or the other, it's just a question of how the DM sees it (as opposed to the DM seeing it and saying "IO'm changing it", which they can certainly also do, lol).
Weapons do too. Quote from the PRD: "Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below."But you see,
We are discussing weapons and equipment that have no price given below. You will not find 'Mithral Dagger' below. The masterwork price is only included when you have a pre-generated item. Otherwise, you have to include it yourself.I bolded the part you seemed to miss - they are always masterwork. And the price is given on the table, it simply isn't broken down into weapon categories - it's done by the weight of a weapon. Otherwise we'd have light, one-handed, and two-handed prices for simple, martial, and exotic, and you'd have to wonder why things that have two or more times the mass (ie., weight) cost the same to make mithral just because they're in the same proficiency category.
Uhm,
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean. Broken down by proficiency category? If you were going to list the specific mithral weapons, you'd list them individually (or at least by weight).I tried going to the magical items section and using the adamantine items as way to work out what you'd do, but that makes even less sense. A 1 pound adamantine dagger costs the same as a 6 pound adamantine battleax costs the same as a 12 pound adamantine greataxe. That boggles the mind.
Honestly, I wish they'd fixed the 3.x item rules, they always were buggy, and still are. :(
And I can't agree with the other piece either. The price of mithral is stated as '500gp per pound'. So the mithral costs are 500gp per pound. It makes no sense to charge 500gp per original pound of the object, if that were the case, it would say '500gp per original pound of the object, but cut weight in half for mithral'. Very cumbersome.This, on the other hand, is just an issue of interpretation. My assumption is that they have the price modifier per pound so that you look at the weight in pounds, multiple that by 500 gp, and there you go. That seems to be how modifiers tend to work in these sorts of tables, but unless a designer comes forth with an answer one way or the other, it's just a question of how the DM sees it (as opposed to the DM seeing it and saying "IO'm changing it", which they can certainly also do, lol).
Ok, I'll give you that could be a way to interpret it, not the one I'd use, but it is one that could work. Again, this stuff is buggy, and really needs to be cleaned up. :(
Uhm,
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean. Broken down by proficiency category? If you were going to list the specific mithral weapons, you'd list them individually (or at least by weight).I tried going to the magical items section and using the adamantine items as way to work out what you'd do, but that makes even less sense. A 1 pound adamantine dagger costs the same as a 6 pound adamantine battleax costs the same as a 12 pound adamantine greataxe. That boggles the mind.
Honestly, I wish they'd fixed the 3.x item rules, they always were buggy, and still are. :(
I broke it down by proficiency because that's how the armor is (light, medium, heavy - they don't have categories within of how many...um...body parts it covers? Something like that I guess, lol). Listing them all individually would take up even more space, so they just put a by weight line in there. But still, mithral weapons are masterwork, included in the cost of making them mithral (you just have to figure the cost out on a per-weapon basis), or at least that's how I've always seen it done.
And yeah, it could definitely be made clearer. Hopefully we'll get a word from the designers on when to apply the mithral modifier, though (based on original item weight or mithral item weight) - they seem to chime in on quite a few threads like this. ^_^
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Dear Nethys,
I have a few questions about equipment. First of all, I'm assuming that a shield can be carried on one's back, or attached to a backpack, and that it takes a move action to ready said shield from this location. But how long would it take to put it back?
Secondly, are there magical vests and vestments that do not take up a body slot? I have heard rumors of such things.
~Spellcasting Paladin
I did not think a God could fail their Perception check, yet I can think of no other explanation why I did not notice this prayer until now.
Putting away a shield would fall under "Manipulating an Item".
"Manipulate an Item
Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action.
This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Actions in Combat."
It would be one move action to remove the shield from your arm, and another move action to secure it someplace on your back. Retrieving it would be another move action, along with a second one to strap it back onto your arm (although this second one can be done along with a normal move if your BAB is +1 or higher, much like drawing a weapon).
As for an item that did not take up a slot, the entire cost of the item would be doubled (as the poster above noted).
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
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Here's another one- When pricing anything other than armor and shields, mithral costs 500gp/lb. Items made from mithral weigh 1/2 their regular weight. When I figure the cost, am I using the original pre-mithral weight, or the new made-of-mithral weight? Logic would say the new weight because that's how much mithral I'm buying to make my item.
This comes up because I wanted a mithral dagger. A dagger normally weighs 1 lb so I figured a mithral one would weigh 1/2 pound. 1/2 lb of mithral costs 250gp (and includes the price of masterwork), plus 2 for the base price of a dagger. That seems like 252gp for a mithral dagger.
Wait! A regular masterwork dagger costs 302! And the mithril one is harder, lighter and counts as silver vs. damage resistance. Mechanics-wise that's all wrong. But logically, why would I pay for a pound of mithril (500gp) when I'm only using 1/2?
The cost is based off of the weight before it becomes mithral. A mithral dagger would cost 502 gp. And yes, all mithral weapons are considered masterwork, and the price of the masterwork is included in their cost.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
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I do not have much of an opinion on it. However, a lot of people in this thread do. Someone there may have further insight.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
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However, a lot of people in this thread do. Someone there may have further insight.
Ah, that's the thread, thank you, OK, they mostly discuss the spiked chain, but I guess they both fall under the same camp of 'just too good'. Well, OK.
Thanks for the link!
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Why would a greatsword made out of mithral cost nearly as much as a elven chain which is made of five times as much mithral? It would cost more than an adamantine greatsword.
This price per pound makes no sense when any other equipment made from mithral or adamantine has its price adjusted by type, not by weight.
Why would a greatsword made out of mithral cost nearly as much as a elven chain which is made of five times as much mithral? It would cost more than an adamantine greatsword.
This price per pound makes no sense when any other equipment made from mithral or adamantine has its price adjusted by type, not by weight.
You think that's bad? A chain shirt weighs 25 pounds. An adamantine chain shirt costs 5,000gp. Two Adamantine Daggers (weighing 2 pounds) cost 6,000gp! So, the moral of the story? If you need unlimited gold, just buy a set of half plate Adamantine armor (15,600), and demolish it and turn it into daggers. Let's say you lose half the weight in the process. The half plate weighs 50 pounds, so you get 25 1 pound daggers out of it. That's 75,000 gold peices worth of daggers. Congratulations, you just increased your money by 5 times.
Explain to me again why anyone would make adamantine armor? It's much more cost efficient (and easier!) to make adamantine daggers.
I have one. I can't wrap my head around how removing reach from spiked chains and longspears improves the game. I mean, it might, I just don't see it. If there is good reason, cool. They did a hell of a job making the rest of the game awesome.
In the weapons section list Longspear still shows as having reach as far as I can tell.
I tried going to the magical items section and using the adamantine items as way to work out what you'd do, but that makes even less sense. A 1 pound adamantine dagger costs the same as a 6 pound adamantine battleax costs the same as a 12 pound adamantine greataxe. That boggles the mind.
I just rationalize that regardless of the weapon the same amount of Adamantite is forged into the alloy giving it the weapon's new properties. An adamantite just has a more concentrated amount that the adamantite greataxe (which arguably some of the weight is in the wooden handle).
Mithral though is dealt rather clumsily with leaving it at 500gp/lb. Is it original weight? Or do you use the reduced weight? And then questions come up: Why do my 20 arrows need to cost 1500gp? Thats 75gp each! Adamantite costs only 60gp. And how about this one,How much does it cost to make my blowgun darts mithral? Cause I totally want to poison those wererats!Seriously though, the mithral costs need to be broken down the same way alchemical weapons are ordered. Ammunition, Light, One-handed, and Two-handed/Double weapons.
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I can't wrap my head around how removing reach from spiked chains and longspears improves the game.
In the weapons section list Longspear still shows as having reach as far as I can tell.
You know, thank you. I forgot the weapons chart shows special features of weapons now, that it's not expressed in the text description of the item. Wrong on me, I have no equipment worries now. Back to the discussion! :-)
I can't seem to find the cost of these materials in the book ... can I get a quick pointer?
It is in the Equipment section on page 154. If I understand your question correctly.