So I have a summoner in our group who doesn't realize his creatures are the ones who should be in the front lines, not him. He insists on getting into melee and duking it out with the creatures.
He's taken no feats for better armor, no stats to help him in melee combat, and seems completely shocked every time he goes to cast a spell and gets smacked upside the head by an attack of opportunity because he refuses to cast defensively.
When there's an obvious trap ahead, he runs to figure it out, not giving the rogue or heavier armor wearer's a chance to take the chance of setting it off. He doesn't have skills placed to do this either.
I've been pulling back on the damage he's supposed to be taking and telling him that if he doesn't learn his limitations, the monsters are going to teach his character a permanent lesson. This doesn't seem to phase him in the slightest.
I should also add that the only source of healing they have is from a paladin's lay on hands and some potions... he's drinking as many, if not more, than the fighter.
Any suggestions from other DM's?
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Let him bite it. He thinks he's invincible, and so far he's right. The next time he does something that might get him killed, don't pull your punches. Then, if he asks if he was doing something wrong, explain it to him again what he should have been doing. Players care a lot more about life and limb when you make it clear that you will take such things away from them.
+1
Also, Wands of Cure Light Wounds are better for out-of-combat healing.
Humbly,
Yawar
Let him bite it. He thinks he's invincible, and so far he's right. The next time he does something that might get him killed, don't pull your punches. Then, if he asks if he was doing something wrong, explain it to him again what he should have been doing. Players care a lot more about life and limb when you make it clear that you will take such things away from them.
I would go with "waste him". He seems to be under the mistaken impression that you as the GM are under some compulsion to provide for his character's survival. Under the circumstances, his character is a proverbial 'human trap detector' - the kind that plug ears and tap the floor with their feet to find said traps...
So I have a summoner in our group who doesn't realize his creatures are the ones who should be in the front lines, not him. He insists on getting into melee and duking it out with the creatures.
He's taken no feats for better armor, no stats to help him in melee combat, and seems completely shocked every time he goes to cast a spell and gets smacked upside the head by an attack of opportunity because he refuses to cast defensively.
When there's an obvious trap ahead, he runs to figure it out, not giving the rogue or heavier armor wearer's a chance to take the chance of setting it off. He doesn't have skills placed to do this either.
I've been pulling back on the damage he's supposed to be taking and telling him that if he doesn't learn his limitations, the monsters are going to teach his character a permanent lesson. This doesn't seem to phase him in the slightest.
I should also add that the only source of healing they have is from a paladin's lay on hands and some potions... he's drinking as many, if not more, than the fighter.
Any suggestions from other DM's?
Some people only learn things by repeatedly attending the special course on filling out new character sheets. I suggest you stop fudging dice, and enroll him immediately. After he dies enough times he will hopefully start to figure it out. I am assuming you have tried to explain things to him first though.
Some people learn the hard way. +1 for kill him.
If that doesn't work, going to a con is a nice way to see other players, and maybe learn things you didn't know. Take him to one.
Pull the punch @ -CON+1... one time...
So I have a summoner in our group who doesn't realize his creatures are the ones who should be in the front lines, not him. He insists on getting into melee and duking it out with the creatures.
He's taken no feats for better armor, no stats to help him in melee combat, and seems completely shocked every time he goes to cast a spell and gets smacked upside the head by an attack of opportunity because he refuses to cast defensively.
When there's an obvious trap ahead, he runs to figure it out, not giving the rogue or heavier armor wearer's a chance to take the chance of setting it off. He doesn't have skills placed to do this either.
I've been pulling back on the damage he's supposed to be taking and telling him that if he doesn't learn his limitations, the monsters are going to teach his character a permanent lesson. This doesn't seem to phase him in the slightest.
I should also add that the only source of healing they have is from a paladin's lay on hands and some potions... he's drinking as many, if not more, than the fighter.
Any suggestions from other DM's?
I'd say roll in the open and when the dice kill him let it happen. Most likely he is either a guy who needs to learn a lesson on play or a guy that is looking for an excuse to opt out of the campaign by getting killed. If you have been in the habit of softballing people, it can escalate to something like this.
He needs to learn the hard way...while the DM tries to make things fair, he has to learn to protect himself better if he wants to get into the fight without his summons.
Let him bite the bullet the next time he tries it, dont pull your punches...he'll learn to be more careful or better yet, play a fighter type next time who can handle getting in there better than he clearly does.
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I've been pulling back on the damage he's supposed to be taking and telling him that if he doesn't learn his limitations, the monsters are going to teach his character a permanent lesson. This doesn't seem to phase him in the slightest.
You're giving mixed messages, here.
You're telling him "Don't do that, or it'll be the death of you."Then you're telling him that combat, traps, etc are only likely to do piffling amounts of damage.
The GM is the players' senses; through his descriptions, the players learn the 'natural laws' of the gameworld (is magic rare, are these monsters common, are adventurers respected or feared, are traps meant to kill people or just annoy them).
Assuming he's never played D&D/PF before, the only way a player can find out the 'normal' risk level of the game, is by experiencing it.
You're letting him explore a cotton-wool world, in which creatures gum him with rubber teeth, and traps spray him with silly-string.
If he's got 6 hp, and every hazard does no more than 3hp damage, why wouldn't a person just set them off?
If the most fearsome boss-monster is only capable of dealing enough damage to wind him (the weediest PC), then why shouldn't everyone run up to melee it?
The longer you leave it before restoring normality, the more of a shock it'll be to him, because you'll hit him for a killing blow, from a creature or trap that's only ever done half that damage, and he'll protest that it couldn't do that, and accuse you of making stuff up.
I've been pulling back on the damage he's supposed to be taking and telling him that if he doesn't learn his limitations, the monsters are going to teach his character a permanent lesson. This doesn't seem to phase him in the slightest.
I should also add that the only source of healing they have is from a paladin's lay on hands and some potions... he's drinking as many, if not more, than the fighter.
Do you know why his is doing this? If not, talk to the player.
Is this player new to RPGs? (... Of course a Summoner would be a surprizingly complex class for a newbie.)
If so, then he may not have known the right choice for his play style - because it sounds like he would have been a great Barbarian. Find out if he would like to change to a more appropriate character (such as a Melee Type or a martially oriented Cleric/Druid).
If the player should have known better, then there may be some other problem that you and he need to work out.
So I have a summoner in our group who doesn't realize his creatures are the ones who should be in the front lines, not him. He insists on getting into melee and duking it out with the creatures.
Any suggestions from other DM's?
Aside from what other posters have mentioned, it might be a good idea to discuss this issue with the other players at the table. Are THEY happy that their summoner is getting knocked around all the time and wasting all their healing resources? Probably not.
A bit of peer pressure should put him on track quickly. Failing that, start hitting him hard.
I am all for allowing horrible concequences for particularly foolish PC actions. He has to learn, pulling punches wont teach him. Its one thing not to want to intentionally kill a player. It's another to plastic bubble them away from their own stupidity.
Example, in a recent game, we were inside a building on the upper floors. A Hydra attacked the outer gate of the building. The party's rogue/fighter leapt out the window and dashed right at it, knowing full well the rest of the party (2 two tanks in particular) would have to take the stairs. He quickly learned what 12 attacks do from a hard fight (CR=APL+3) for a 7 player party will do against a single character who isnt particularly hardy. We ended up trying to sort out the pieces that were left of his remains after the fight. It wasn't easy. There was not much left to bury. The hydra had 3 rounds to pick at his remains with a couple heads while it continued killing the other local guards untill the rest of us got there.
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So I have a summoner in our group who doesn't realize his creatures are the ones who should be in the front lines, not him. He insists on getting into melee and duking it out with the creatures.
He's taken no feats for better armor, no stats to help him in melee combat, and seems completely shocked every time he goes to cast a spell and gets smacked upside the head by an attack of opportunity because he refuses to cast defensively.
When there's an obvious trap ahead, he runs to figure it out, not giving the rogue or heavier armor wearer's a chance to take the chance of setting it off. He doesn't have skills placed to do this either.
I've been pulling back on the damage he's supposed to be taking and telling him that if he doesn't learn his limitations, the monsters are going to teach his character a permanent lesson. This doesn't seem to phase him in the slightest.
I should also add that the only source of healing they have is from a paladin's lay on hands and some potions... he's drinking as many, if not more, than the fighter.
Any suggestions from other DM's?
Nothing you can do to help him, you always going to get players who play their PC's as if the other members of the group are just NPCs to do his/her bidding when he/she wishes.
Give him an taste of the "medicine" as he is not being a team player. Stop enabling him. If his PC gets badly hurt (And if I had a PC Cleric in your game I wouldn't even bother to heal him), or even better dies so what?
He's dead, get him to re-roll a new character and let him sit out the rest of the game session watching how a good RPG should be played. If he leaves the group, it's no great loss. The last thing any group of adventurers wants is a foolhardy moron putting all of them in unnecessary danger. Just my thoughts
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Sure, sure, sure, let him die (kill him).
But, at the beginning of the session tell him that you've been fudging dice rolls for every single encounter and that had you not been breaking the rules (your prerogative) in his favor, he would have died half-a-hundred times already.
This way, when his PC charges the monsters and loses 51 of his 24 hit points he's not surprised.
Let him know that you didn't mind keeping him alive for a while but for the integrity of the gaming session -- keeping the game FAIR for everyone -- you have to allow him to die if he does something foolish, something his character is not designed for.
Afterall, quarterbacks don't try to tackle Middle Linebackers; Offensive Guards aren't there to try to catch Wide Recievers.
You'll do everyone a favour by not pulling your punches. Well, except the character who dies. That way, the guy learns a valuable lesson: Decisions have consequences. Playing with the brain turned off will probably result in dead party members.
And better to have his own character bite the dust than someone else's - that way lie assaults on dark parking lots.
So remember our motto:
PF game masters
We do what we must because we can
For the good of all of us - except the ones who are dead...
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Aside from what other posters have mentioned, it might be a good idea to discuss this issue with the other players at the table. Are THEY happy that their summoner is getting knocked around all the time and wasting all their healing resources? Probably not.
A bit of peer pressure should put him on track quickly. Failing that, start hitting him hard.
+1 agree. Let the rogue do a trip as he goes by to get to the front. or let the paladin smack him with a shield a few times.
You've taught him that he is invincible. When he throws a fit because he did something stupid and got killed for it don't be surprised.
When the paladin doesn't offer to fix him up, I wouldn't hold it against him either.
Meat shields go to the front.
Spell casters go in the back.
Rogues play with the fiddly bits.
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Aside from what other posters have mentioned, it might be a good idea to discuss this issue with the other players at the table. Are THEY happy that their summoner is getting knocked around all the time and wasting all their healing resources? Probably not.
A bit of peer pressure should put him on track quickly. Failing that, start hitting him hard.+1 agree. Let the rogue do a trip as he goes by to get to the front. or let the paladin smack him with a shield a few times.
You've taught him that he is invincible. When he throws a fit because he did something stupid and got killed for it don't be surprised.
When the paladin doesn't offer to fix him up, I wouldn't hold it against him either.
Meat shields go to the front.
Spell casters go in the back.
Rogues play with the fiddly bits.
Actually I always like to have a meat shield at the back (I.E a ranger in stealth mode), just in case the bad guys get clever and creep up on you in a dark narrow corridor.
I'm with everyone else: Let him bite it.
So remember our motto:
PF game masters
We do what we must because we can
For the good of all of us - except the ones who are dead...
The cake is +5?
heres a link that summarizes what i heard
the reason i dislike World of Warcraft!
the summoner you described sounds like your standard WoW player.
read the link above for more details.
You've taught him that he is invincible. When he throws a fit because he did something stupid and got killed for it don't be surprised.
This is what I was going to warn about. Odds are, he's so used to doing this same thing, despite the warning shots, despite the verbal warning, but getting by taking just enough damage to stay upright, that if you STOP pulling your punches and he dies, he's likely to complain that you singled his character out to kill and you're no fair.
And you shouldn't single him out. Don't deliberately kill him off because you're sick of his crap. He might even survive, just plain lucky, for several levels. But at the same time, don't hold back. He probably won't die, even if you don't pull punches. Odds are, he'll get knocked around a bit, maybe knocked unconscious, and sit out most of the fight slowly bleeding out until the paladin throws a heal on him. And if he dies, he dies, and you did warn him. But you shouldn't raise the damage to kill him off just because he's playing so ... tactically unwise.
Maybe just add in a trap that looks like this but make it glaringly obvious. Make it completely visable with a big red button that say do not push in every in game language. See what he does.
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heres a link that summarizes what i heard
the reason i dislike World of Warcraft!
the summoner you described sounds like your standard WoW player.
read the link above for more details.
No! A link to TV Tropes? Good gods, what have you done?!
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If the situation presents itself, with no fudging (and explaining you have fudged and will not do so anymore), and he dies, so be it.
If he flips, tell him to get over it, stop being stupid about the game, and re-roll. Encourage use of tactical or common sense thinking, and don't necessarily punish, but enact real consequences to all actions within the game.
He is summoning monsters, you say? Not sure what they are doing during combat, but as DM could certainly have them jump in front of him and overrun him rushing to the front line...maybe these are the monsters who will teach him his place.
+1
Best. Lesson. Ever.
Yeah... while I firmly do not believe in "punishing" the players for disagreeing or what have you, nor in trying to kill PCs -- the consequences of players' actions need to be played out for what they are.
I.e., echoing everyone else: STOP CODDLING HIM. You are making things not only difficult for you but him and the rest of his party as well.
You've already talked to him about it (this is important), and he's proven to you he wants to learn the hard way. So go forth and play the game the way it was meant to be played. If he takes a foolish risk, let the dice play out as they will. Otherwise, he'll never learn tactics for how to play effectively the class he's chosen.
heres a link that summarizes what i heard
the reason i dislike World of Warcraft!
the summoner you described sounds like your standard WoW player.
read the link above for more details.
I heard about that accidentally a few weeks ago. It reminds of players I have met. I probably would have let him die, then gone in and tried to fight.
Aside from what other posters have mentioned, it might be a good idea to discuss this issue with the other players at the table. Are THEY happy that their summoner is getting knocked around all the time and wasting all their healing resources? Probably not.
A bit of peer pressure should put him on track quickly. Failing that, start hitting him hard.+1 agree. Let the rogue do a trip as he goes by to get to the front. or let the paladin smack him with a shield a few times.
You've taught him that he is invincible. When he throws a fit because he did something stupid and got killed for it don't be surprised.
When the paladin doesn't offer to fix him up, I wouldn't hold it against him either.
Meat shields go to the front.
Spell casters go in the back.
Rogues play with the fiddly bits.
Echoing this sentiment. I'm surprised the other players haven't already broached the subject. I know my group would, without hesitation.
My players might have solved the problem themselves. With murder.
As much as I hate to kill a PC, I agree with pretty much everything that's been said. Without even taking the notions "tactics" and "strategy" into consideration, there seems to be a lack of plain common sense. As a DM you have to be fair-minded and coddling the summoner is doing a great disservice to the other players at the table who are treating the game with respect and understanding.
Don't be out to get him, but if his idiocy puts him in mortal danger, kill his @$$ dead.
Some people only learn things by repeatedly attending the special course on filling out new character sheets.
that is the best way of saying you died go back to square one i have ever seen
Someone like this needs a good bleaching for the partys sake, perhaps when he bites the proverbial bullet he will realise hes not indestructable.
Perhaps he visualises himself more like a character from a video game, that theres no 'real' consequences, and like a game, he can just reload his 'last save' metaphorically and try again. He hasnt reached the point where hes been faced with the proverbial 'Game Over' screen yet but he surely should see the light at the end of that tunnel ASAP before it costs the party.
He sounds like a real Leeroy Jenkins, one wrong move at the worst time and he might cost the party a critical encounter that sees one or more PC's dead.
He should really be playing Meat, or at least, be a Summoner/Fighter or Barbarian or Monk perhaps so he can use heavier armor or benefit from a better AC overall and put up some kind of a fight...but he really ought to be using that Eidoleon more, its doing no good hanging back doing the old 'jazz hands' routine every round.