born_of_fire's page

born_of_fire wrote:

IMHO, the problem lies in the fact that the mechanical benefits of being an uncommon race are offset by role playing consequences that many here seem willing to overlook. Being a hobgoblin to gain the mechanical benefits of the race but expecting to be treated in society the same as a human is like a human expecting to have the darkvision a hobgoblin enjoys at the price of being recognized as non-human without the associated cost. If a player wants to have the physical characteristics, skill bonus, racial trait, weapon proficiency or whatever the uncommon race offers that makes them mechanically more attractive than a common human then they should expect to pay the price of being regarded as something other than a common human.

That should be part of the rules, then. At least, it should be explicit in the text that such roleplaying penalties are part of the balance.

And does that still apply to races that are weaker than humans, such as goblins, kobolds, and orcs?

It is part of the rules. Explicitly so. The races are different. Both mechanics and fluff. As with all fluff, ignore as you see fit but don’t equate Taldan characters regarding halflings as slaves with real life racism. It’s literally in the rules books that halflings were enslaved by Taldans at some point and may, depending on the particular game, still be kept as slaves. Andoran’s biggest beef with Taldor is its practice of slavery, is it not? Playing a Taldan that endorses slavery doesn’t make anyone a slaver or racist IRL. Along the same lines, anyone playing a halfling in Taldor can expect at least a portion of the population to regard them as a slave, an escaped slave or something remarkable, perhaps even unique, and be entirely in accordance with officially published Paizo material.

There are a variety of common thinly veiled prejudices baked into the rules just like it’s not too difficult to make clumsy analogs to real life countries out of most Golarion nations.

IMHO, the problem lies in the fact that the mechanical benefits of being an uncommon race are offset by role playing consequences that many here seem willing to overlook. Being a hobgoblin to gain the mechanical benefits of the race but expecting to be treated in society the same as a human is like a human expecting to have the darkvision a hobgoblin enjoys at the price of being recognized as non-human without the associated cost. If a player wants to have the physical characteristics, skill bonus, racial trait, weapon proficiency or whatever the uncommon race offers that makes them mechanically more attractive than a common human then they should expect to pay the price of being regarded as something other than a common human.

Ugly. Classic butterface. The kind of person you would describe as having a great personality to a blind date. Not much to look upon but funny, kind-hearted, interesting, good conversationalist, that sort of thing. Especially if you have invested points in diplomacy and sense motive, and/or are good-aligned.

born_of_fire wrote:

Cunning defense is not much different from an established investigator talent:

Studied Defense
Prerequisite(s): Investigator 9th level
Benefit: When an investigator with this talent uses his studied combat ability, he can chose to apply that ability’s insight bonus to his AC against attacks made by the target of his studied combat instead of to attack rolls against the target of his studied combat. (The insight bonus on damage rolls remains.) He must choose which type of bonus he gains when using studied combat, and it cannot be changed until he uses studied combat again.

The differences being that Cunning Defense doesn’t make the investigator choose between the attack and the AC bonus, giving them both simultaneously instead, and the reduced level requirement. I’m not sure that unbalances Cunning Defense but it does seem that the original author(s) felt bonuses to both at the same time was a bit much.

As well, Cunning Defense should probably replace a talent choice at a level when the investigator gets one rather than it just being a thing they get. This would put them in line with other archetypes that award a specific talent at a specific level (natural philosopher gets infusion at level 3 rather than a choice of any talent at that level, for example).

Forgot about studied defense, but that loses you the attack bonus.

What level do you think would be good to replace a talent choice?

The first talent seems too early.

Maybe the 5th level choice?

I'd be reluctant to hand it out before an unarchetyped investigator has access to the weaker version talent at 9th.

If you're lucky and ask nicely, someone smarter than me might analyze the effect having that much extra AC will have in relation to what the expected attack bonuses are at each level. Sadly, I am no math whiz and my input is based on feel alone.

MrCharisma wrote:

Unrealparagon wrote:

Arcane Dilettante (Sp): The maximum level of spell you can use, according to your class level, is also shown on the table.

I'm not clear on what this means, it might need clarification (what's the highest level of spell you end up casting?)

Also if I'm reading Arcane Dilettante correctly a 20th level Factotum could prepare one "spell" at their highest level, and nine "spells" one level lower. Is that the intent?

Moving past that, this gives a LOT to your Intelligence, so the easiest comparison is probably to the Empiricist. This seems more powerful but it probably depends on your spells.

It also seems like a weird class in that it gives you martial weapons but then incentivizes you to not use STR or DEX ... I dunno if that's bad, just weird.

Yeah, one spell of max level, then nine additional spells of what ever level you feel like preparing. At least that is how the original Factotum class intended it.

The Intelligence not being a big factor is combat is the only thing I can't work out without making the Archetype stupid OP.

I can't remember are there feats that allow you to use Intelligence in place of Strength for attack rolls? Cause it would seem appropriate as a feat tax.

Or maybe as a Talent?

Kung Fu Master is a 3.5 feat published in the Dragon magazine compendium that subs int for str on attack rolls. FWIW, it was widely regarded as OP.

The closest PF thing I am aware of is
Knowledge Is Power (Ex) (People of the River pg. 9): Your understanding of physical forces gives you power over them. You add your Intelligence modifier on combat maneuver checks and to your CMD. You also add your Intelligence modifier on Strength checks to break or lift objects.
It's an arcane discovery and is considerably more limited than what it seems you are proposing.

What more does an investigator need than studied target to make his int relevant to combat? This class feature is touted by many as the very best scaling combat buff in the game. Have I misunderstood your intent?

Cunning defense is not much different from an established investigator talent:

Studied Defense
Prerequisite(s): Investigator 9th level
Benefit: When an investigator with this talent uses his studied combat ability, he can chose to apply that ability’s insight bonus to his AC against attacks made by the target of his studied combat instead of to attack rolls against the target of his studied combat. (The insight bonus on damage rolls remains.) He must choose which type of bonus he gains when using studied combat, and it cannot be changed until he uses studied combat again.

The differences being that Cunning Defense doesn’t make the investigator choose between the attack and the AC bonus, giving them both simultaneously instead, and the reduced level requirement. I’m not sure that unbalances Cunning Defense but it does seem that the original author(s) felt bonuses to both at the same time was a bit much.

As well, Cunning Defense should probably replace a talent choice at a level when the investigator gets one rather than it just being a thing they get. This would put them in line with other archetypes that award a specific talent at a specific level (natural philosopher gets infusion at level 3 rather than a choice of any talent at that level, for example).

Cavall wrote:

dunelord3001 wrote:

Ryan Freire wrote:

dunelord3001 wrote:

gnoams wrote:

Um, well, it is a class feature intended to cause drama.

Maybe. But that class feature as written gets discovered by the rest of the party. Quick.

I mean...situationally? If you're out in BFE with this adventurer you met level 1, and you finally get back to the capital city by 11, where it turns out that adventurer is actually some minor nobility assuming a different identity to adventure, there's not really much opportunity to discover it.

You should be getting a roll to notice that they go off by themselves and do something and come back. You might not know both names and addresses but having no idea that something up is just ridiculous.

I mean, Supermans been doing this for like a century. And Batman. Shazam! Wonder woman. Green lantern. Green arrow. The Question. Daredevil. Spider-man. Robin. Robin. Robin. Robin. Robin.

I don't want to sound mean or anything but anytime you're trying to defend anything with examples from DC Comics you might as well just type in that you think I'm completely right and there's no point in discussing any further because that's what it looks like. The idea that you can stand slightly differently and people you've worked with for years won't be able to tell it to you is the dumbest single thing I've ever come across in fiction. At the age of 11 I was like this is dumb and pretty much decided to not read DC Comics, at least the ones with no mask. Never been a decision I regret.

Clark Kent/Superman

Changing from evangelist cleric to bard seems like it would work. You’d just be a little more bard, a little less cleric than you started out. In combat, you can continue using bardsong or casting buffs when it’s your turn and reach tactics to contribute when it’s not, plus you’ll have a ton more skill points/OOC utility and you’ll be the 6/9 caster you’d prefer. The main problem is that you won’t have the condition removing spells on your spell list though you can get saving finale and there are always scrolls, wands, potions and whatever else a group without a cleric normally does to overcome conditions.

Someone should tell OP before he does too much planning that picking an archetype for a class progresses the archetype for that class at all levels. There is no cherry-picking levels to get the class abilities you want from the base class and an archetyped version of that same class. If you play a spell warrior skald, you do not get spell kenning.

It is normal to sell items for 50% of their purchase price but this seems like the sort of situation you could easily strike a better bargain with the vendor or craftsman: take my bow +200gp for your same bow +1 str rating. Or something along those lines...

I don’t imagine that fairly run of the mill things like magic bows with higher strength ratings would be unusual or rare, relatively speaking, to the overall availability of magic items and weapons in a setting without table-specific reasoning. Your vendor/craftsman could conceivably have a suitable bow sitting on the shelf, just taking up space and waiting for you to come along, right now. It would be most dependant on your GM’s attitude toward “Ye Olde Magic Shoppe”, I suppose.

born_of_fire wrote:

Inquisitor. It is the rogue-ish divine caster I wanted to play for years and years. I especially like the archetypes that trade away judgements—they are all straight upgrades as far as I’m concerned.

Oracles are also cool but the selection of quality curses and mysteries is too limited.

Funny, I consider Judgement to be the Inquisitor's best class feature.

I feel that trading away judgements simplifies the class mechanics by swapping in more universally applicable abilities equal in power to or better than judgements at the lower levels. It is my understanding that judgements are more attractive at the higher levels, where what you’ve traded them away for is not as powerful as the ability to combine judgements and the judgements themselves are individually more rewarding due to scaling, but I’ve never played an inquisitor past level 13.

Inquisitor. It is the rogue-ish divine caster I wanted to play for years and years. I especially like the archetypes that trade away judgements—they are all straight upgrades as far as I’m concerned.

Oracles are also cool but the selection of quality curses and mysteries is too limited.

I’m going to look all fussy and ungrateful but, in fact, it is a full round action that provokes AoO’s to swap out a known spell for one in the spellbook. This means that it really ought to be out of combat more than in and I’m mainly looking for utility spells that are handy in corner cases. Passwall, true seeing, stoneshape and fabricate are excellent suggestions in this vein. Thanks and any others?

Thanks for the suggestions but it seems I may have been unclear. The exploiter wizard can use an arcane exploit to swap any memorized spell for any spell of the same level that they have access to in their spellbook. As such, I’m not looking for scroll suggestions, I’m looking for spells to have in my spellbook that I can spend a point to trade for in place of a memorized spell. Most of your suggestions certainly fit the bill as spells to have in my spellbook just in case anyway but a fuller understanding of my goal might elicit more and different ideas.

What are the spells that you would recommend for an exploiter wizard to have in their spellbook for those just in case moments? The character will be level 17 so any suggestions 1-9 are appreciated. I’m pretty settled on her casting style and therefore her day to day spell load-out; what I’m interested in are the situational spells that you would never memorize on a regular basis but are just what you needed for rare circumstances. Knock or gust of wind, those sorts of spells...

I am having significant difficulty getting the creative juices flowing. Think I will sit this one out despite expressing interest. Thanks anyway and have fun all.

I'm interested. Also back after a long hiatus but not in time for your other recruitment threads. Not sure what I'll make but I tend towards the support role and 6 level casters.

Rapier can be used with piranha strike if it has effortless lace applied. Unless your DM has nixed that particular magic item, you can pretty much dump strength—you don’t even need that much str to manage your gear as a small character with less than heavy armour.

If the effortless lace is available, I’d go str 7 (11-4) dex 22 (18+4) con 14 int 18 (17+1 at 4) wis 13 cha 10 (12-2). You can put the +1 from level 8 into wis for more will save or put all the rest into dex after making your int an even score. You’d be a little hardier and have better saves with my stat spread, which I feel are much more beneficial than bothering with power attack on a dex focussed character. I rocked a str 7 on my little goblin swashigator and never had any issues. Might depend on how much your DM likes foes with stat damage/drain ability though.

No, we are “dog-piling” you because the 3 level dip you propose is not worth the very limited debuff it gives. It’s been thoroughly explained and is literally the complete opposite of what you’ve interpreted >.> We are also “dog-piling” you because it’s really quite difficult to rationalize this build as a bard, which is what the OP asked for.

It is plainly obvious to anyone with eyes that you are intractably enamoured of sneak attack. There are plenty of threads you’ve answered to with some variation of this same build, which is, I will grant you, a pretty solid system for sneak attacking on a mundane character. As laudable as it is, however, it’s certainly not needed to be recommended for like every second request for advice that is posted on these boards, especially when the request is a caster-type that your dips to maximize SA at the expense of CL and gaining spell levels are actively detrimental to.

I’ve tried to keep this about the build rather than pronouncements of badwrongfun but you are clearly determined to perceive this as a personal attack. The idea that a bunch of perfect strangers would take the time to get together and connive against you on the internet, rather than your build is a terrible idea and a bunch of perfect strangers can all see that independently of one another, is ludicrous!

I'm currently in an all dwarf game with a bolt ace a forester hunter (me) a forgepreist warpriest and a straight fighter.

I think itll be interesting. And filled with many fun play opportunities.

I’ve tried to get my group to play an all something game a few times. It’s a large group so we can never agree on what that the all will be. I’m peanut butter and jealous, Cavall.

Sorry for the departure...count me in as a proponent of the Forge of Combat. There’s so many different class options to fill the traditional roles in Pathfinder and so many classes that blur the lines between the traditional roles. It’s what you’re doing not what your class is called that matters.

Scott Wilhelm:

Creatures that are innately immune to sneak attack are not the only ones that foil your tactic. You also have to be aware of blind creatures, creatures with tremorsense, blindsense and the more advanced scent feats, basically any creatures not reliant on sight; creatures that see in smoke and fog innately; creatures that have their own fog-cutting lenses or similar tool; creatures that can disperse your smoke or fog and there’s likely more than that too. Your GM doesn’t have “cheat” to challenge this tactic; there’s plenty of legit options that make sense for other reasons than shutting down this character.

I admit I said 8 levels to achieve your goal because that’s the level the build is presented at. I mistakenly assumed that was the level you felt it was online and effective.

I have a bardcher that I’ve got prepped as a backup character. Unfortunately, it is level 10 so not a direct comparison to your build however I don’t feel you would remedy the issues your build has compared to a more traditional bardcher by tacking on two more levels. There’s no way your build bumped to 10th has the 130 skill points mine does. In addition, you are not a lore master or a jack of all trades like my bardcher is, further adding to his skills in ways yours never will. Your build lacks most of the feats that makes archery powerful: rapid shot, many shot, deadly aim, and clustered shot. Arcane strike is also nice in this specific case but you haven’t got that either. I have the higher level performances. I haven’t taken a masterpiece yet and may never but the option exists for me. I have the bard buffs that most people expect, haste, heroism, good hope and access to the finale spells etc. I have 28 rounds of performance per day.

I’m terrible at math so not doing any real analysis here, just very rough impression. It seems to me that your 2d6+4d6 SA that requires very specific circumstances to make work and can be done only 12 rounds per day is rather comparable to my bardcher’s 1d8+12 with two extra arrows (one from manyshot and one from rapid shot) that I can shoot any time, all the time. I also don’t have to be within 30’ of any target I want to damage well.

This is what I mean when I say you have taken the king of versatility and reduced to a singular tactic. You do one thing well: blind people with fog to buff yourself and your party and then sneak attack those blind people. You’re severely limited in what you bring to the table for you or your party once you’ve used all your rounds of performance compared to a more traditional bard.

I’m grateful for the civil discourse. Cheers!

CBDunkerson wrote:

Meirril wrote:

Round 1: unstopper Eversmoking Bottle. Your allies can't see. Neither can you. This takes a standard action.

A character can unstopper and drink a potion as a move action... I don't see how it could take them a standard action to just unstopper the bottle. It'd be a move action at most. I'd probably rule a move action to reach for the bottle and unstopper it, or a free action to unstopper if you already have your hand on the stopper.

It's a standard action to drink a potion.

I could see an argument for unstoppering being a move action, but by the rules of the game it's a standard action (and free action wouldn't even be on the table).

EDIT: Just to be clear, I don't think that build is as bad as some here do, but it is pretty gimicky, and it dies have it's flaws.

It’s super gimmicky. That’s the problem with it. It’s going to hit like a kitten made out of wet noodles in any situation it can’t sneak attack and there are plenty of those, even with the 12 or so rounds of performance that “lock in” its sneak attack. Sneak attack and ranged attacks don’t mix well, for starters, and there are plenty of creatures straight up unaffected by sneak attack, are innately unaffected by this tactic or can overcome this tactic with abilities or tactics of their own.

The build takes 8 levels to “lock in” 12 rounds of sneak attack damage. That’s not a reasonable investment when you consider what it’s traded away to become this one trick pony. Its CL is 3 and it’s short a ton of skill points compared to a straight or lightly dipped bard. It has no higher level performances, no masterpieces, it has only level 1 spells so no haste nor heroism nor good hope nor finale other than saving. It takes the king of versatility and trades that all away for a singular, limited tactic. This is not a bard that sneak attacks, it’s a sneak attacker that has dipped 3 levels of bard.

Meirril wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

born_of_fire wrote:

The problem with your tactic is that the growth subdomain power allows an inquisitor to enlarge themself for 1 round only

Huh. I guess that was too good to be true.

Okay, so instead of dipping a level in Inquisitor, dip a level in Living Monolith. That way you get to Enlarge Person as a Swift Action as if you'd cast the Spell: 1 minute/level.

So you're giving up a level in casting ability and advancement, delaying your BAB increase for 1 level, taking Endurance and Iron Will plus 10 skill points in knowledge skills instead of bardic performance in order to gain:

0 BAB,+1 fortitude save, d8 hd, 2+int skill points, and the ability to Enlarge Person 3 times per day at 1st level?

Considering what you're giving up, it doesn't seem worth it. UMD a wand with Enlarge Person.

Depending on the build, Iron Will and Endurance can be lovely Feats to have and not a waste at all. You get an extra 1d6 Base Damage on both Ranged and melee attacks, maybe more, and an extra +1 Damage.

To achieve a truly devastating effect: make everyone Blind except you and your allies, and do it just about every time, all you need is 3 levels in Flame Damcer Bard and an Eversmoking Bottle. Like I was saying before, I wouldn't be in a hurry to dip a level in Ranger for a Wand of Gravity Bow (and Lead Blades) and a level in Living Monolith to Enlarge as a Swift Action. First I'd take advantage that almost all my opponents lose their Dex Mods to AC and start dipping in classes that give Sneak Attack Damage.

Half Orc, Shaman's Apprentice (Endurance), Orc Hornbow
1Fighter1: Precise Shot, BAB+1
2F1Bard1: Flame Dancer
3F1B2: Weapon focus?, BAB+2
4F1B3: Song of Fiery Gaze, BAB+3
5F1B3Brawler1: Snakebite Striker, Sneak Attack +1d6, Accomplished Sneak Attacker Sneak Attack +1d6, BAB+4
6F1B3S1Ninja1: Poison, Sneak Attack +1d6
7F1B3S1N2: Rogue Talent, Underhanded Trick, Combat Expertise, BAB+5
8F1B3S1N3:...

At this point, are you even a bard anymore? Not really, you’re just a motley patchwork of class abilities, overly invested in sneak attack and a gimmick that’s going to annoy your GM to the point of exasperation unless they’re a saint. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. To each his own, I suppose. At least this proposal is mechanically sound, unlike the growth subdomain enlarge from earlier.

Shorticus wrote:

Arrowsong Minstrel can put that on their spell list. No need.

I don't think you can be an Arrowsong Minstrel and a Flame Dancer, though.

MrCharisma wrote:

I don't think I'd bother with Gravity Bow + Enlarge person. Sure you're doing 4d6 damage per hot, but you've just spent 2 rounds buffing yourself instead of attacking.

It takes 2 rounds of buffing to do Gravity Bow, Enlarge Person, Song of Fiery Gaze, and activate your Eversmoking Bottle, but just Gravity Bow and Enlarge Person? That only takes 1 Round.

I explained this in my post above.

The problem with your tactic is that the growth subdomain power allows an inquisitor to enlarge themself for 1 round only and you’ve just spent that round doing a move action to pick up the arrows you dropped and a standard action to wand yourself gravity bow. You’re regular sized by the time you can act next.

A potion of enlarge person with its minute duration seems a better idea to me than a swift action that locks you into a specific move action. Two rounds of buffing for both gravity bow and enlarge but you at least have the possibility of a full attack or doing something other than picking up your outsized ammunition each round. Or I suppose another solution would be to figure how not to have to use your move action to pick up ammo but I’ve nothing in mind for this personally.

Phylactery of Positive Channeling if you don’t need a +wis or +cha headband on your channeler.

Ugh. Low con hurts everyone but especially hurts anyone looking to stand in melee. That 15 str is a trap! You prolly want to figure out a way to play some sort of full caster but I’m hard-pressed to think of a yuckier distribution of the half-decent numbers you rolled, especially if you can’t even bump that con up to 10 through race selection. Those stats don’t really point to any obvious choice. 13, 14 or even 15 as your main casting stat is no great shakes but you really, really can’t expect to be in melee with an 8 con. 10 dex hurts an alchemist but might not rule it right out if everyone rolled as awful as you lol. I guess I’d go some sort of wizard or a bomber alchemist, most likely a summoning specialist wizard TBH.

At the very least, if they are adequately, if not generously, equipped when they die, they won’t be able to say it is about gold. They will have died because they made bad choices or had bad luck, most likely some combination of both, and you will have that for when they are sulking.

More often than not, WBL is used in our game to limit players from having too much. We recently adopted a system where we can carry and use whatever loot we find during the course of a level but at each level up, party treasure is cleaned out and each character must account for everything on their character sheet up to the value of WBL. This system was recommended one of the regulars here and it seems to be working well enough so far.

Too much wealth isn’t OP’s problem though, I only bring it up relating to the generic WBL conversation that has ensued. As far as OP goes, punishing players for character death to make losing a character more meaningful is emblematic of larger issues IMHO.

Instead of refusing them recommended WBL because you think they died on purpose just to get it, why not help your whole party become more wealthy so that your players don’t feel death is the most expedient way to improve their gear? Characters are not entitled to WBL but having it sure makes the whole game go smoother as so much of the mechanics are predicated on having the proper equipment and ample consumables.

It would also likely be worthwhile to discuss OOC why they are not very invested in their characters and figure out how to improve that aspect of their gameplay. Losing a character is a punishment in itself if you’re playing a character that you enjoy. I’ll be very sad if the occultist I’m playing dies and would never consider allowing it to happen just for the sake of more gold and/or equipment on my next character.

Since you expressed interest, goblin is a great race for a swashigator too. I played one a couple of years back at level 9-10. I was knocking it out of the park in all aspects.

Not sure if you’ve taken into account swashigator when you mention swashbuckler. One level of swash to set you up with a rapier and dex as your main combat stat then investigator the rest of the way. It’s a truly magnificent combo.

I am not ignoring your suggestions nor are they being dismissed for no reason. The vescovar swarm straight up resists the majority of them based on its elemental resistance to fire: alchemists fire, lamp oil, low level wands and scrolls of things like burning hands—you know, the items most commonly stocked when swarms are anticipated.

Acid and splintercloud arrows are not terrible but offer very low damage versus a creature with 47hp’s—hope you brought a lot rather than the couple/few people have suggested and normally stock. The pellet grenades are your best suggestion but the fire is resisted, they have a saving throw the vescovar will succeed on half of the time to halve the damage it isn’t straight up resisting and they are quite expensive for the amount of damage they actually impart to the swarm—hope you brought a lot more of those than you were suggested to as well.

You, OTOH, are completely ignoring the fact that swarms don’t actually attack, they simply have to occupy a character’s square. The vescovar swarm’s speed is 30’/40’ fly so the characters will be forced to double move or risk their square being occupied; any dorf or character in heavy armour will have to run, let’s hope there is a clear lane of unobstructed terrain to facilitate this, right? Who is chucking a dozen grenades, throwing twenty acid flasks or firing two dozen splintercloud arrows at this thing while not being swarmed by it, taking more damage on average than they are inflicting?

And finally, you haven’t once addressed the vescovar swarm’s supernatural attacks. The saving throws are on the low side, conveniently right around what any scroll you’ve suggested to deal with the swarm will have for a DC. The risk of succumbing to confusion and/or madness cannot be ignored in the manner you have chosen to unless we are also going to dismiss out-of-hand the possibility of the swarm succumbing to wind wall.

I asked Mark Hoover what the investigator in his party should be doing to prepare themself against the upcoming vescovar swarm not what people can do against swarms in general. Most of the generalized advice isn’t a solution against this particular mob, which is nasty and represents a far greater challenge to certain character-types not in possession of one specialized piece of gear than the CR5 indicates. When you ignore the particulars of a creature you’ve been presented, of course your solutions all seem like great ideas. When your answer is Schrodinger’s swarm fighter—a character packed to the brim with the perfect type and quantity of gear to fight any and all types of swarms—of course your solutions all seem like great ideas.

There are very few encounters in PF that require such a small array of specific equipment to overcome in the way that swarms do; it is the binary condition of “have that equipment or fail” that rankles for most.

Investigator with mutagen discovery ticks the boxes, IMHO. It gives all the alchemist goodies that are most important for a Witcher, has tons of skill points and excellent martial prowess even without full BAB thanks to studied target.

Go strength based and use a spear if you want to eventually use the inspired enchant on your weapon (it’s pretty sweet) or spend a feat to get use of a sword or other weapon you think is more stylistically appropriate. Investigators aren’t particularly feat starved so can afford to IMHO. You could also go dex based swashigator if you don’t mind the idea of using a poncy rapier instead of a more manly weapon. The builds are fairly equal in the long run whether you go strength or dex based so it’s a matter of what image you wish to portray with your Witcher.

The only issue with an investigator is the first four levels can feel like quite a slog without studied target, the first five if you go swashigator. As such, I prefer an investigator that I don’t have to play through those levels but bring in as a back up character. If you’re starting at first, it’s not the end of the world of course and studied target is gravy when you do get there.

Spider Swarms are CR1 and have an average of 9 HP.

Lamp Oil costs 1 SILVER can be used like Alch Fire (so 1d6 dmg w/ 50% chance to go off), OR, it can be used to douse a 5ft square for 2 rounds causing 1d3 damage each round.

Alchemist's Fire costs 20gp and deals 1d6 dmg.

.

Honestly, there's no reason a level 1 party cannot afford these things. The only excuse you wouldn't have them is if you didn't prepare. And if that's the case, like I said earlier, running is a perfectly acceptable answer to a swarm.

For levels 4+, Scrolls of Repel Vermin are available for the dirt cheap "cover your ass" cost of 375gp and provide 10mins/lvl protection against vermin. Or, buy that aforementioned Swarmbane Clasp for 3,000gp for a more permanent solution.

For the cheap seats, I'm not talking about swarms of tiny vermin with 9hp's on average. My concern is with the higher level, more difficult swarms; the ones with dozens of hp's comprised of diminutive creatures with elemental resistances and special attacks of their own as I mentioned

What do the martials do against Mark Hoover's vescovar swarm if they do not happen to have a swarmbane clasp? WTF good is an alchemist's fire against a swarm with fire resist 10?? A scroll of repel vermin is useless because vescovar are not vermin. Even if they were, scrolls are also a terribly unreliable way to cast spells with saves due to the low saving throws they require. The non-casters can't hit it because vescovar are diminutive. How many flasks of acid and for how many rounds are they going to throw them for to do 47hp's? Meanwhile they're taking 2d6hp of damage each round they are caught in the swarm, which is perfectly within the realm of possibility, without even taking terrain and/or room size limitations into account, thanks to the confusion effect the swarm emits in a 15' radius. The DC is fairly low but we are talking about martials i.e. classes with generally poor will saves.

I don't personally care for any in game problem that has one and only one solution for an entire style of gameplay (non-casters in this case), aside from fleeing (which isn't even always possible). It's not that swarms should never be thrown against a party but throwing them against a party without the tool(s) to deal with them is not much fun for the players and usually results in character death(s).

Please stop going on and on about the the solutions to easy swarms, FFS. Those are easy. Care to address the vescovar swarm against a party without any AOE spell capability and not in possession of swarmbane clasps? Parties like this do exist--I'm playing in one right now and we have lost at least one character to a higher CR swarm that none of us could affect.

If only there was a super inexpensive item that could be worn as a move action in case of swarms to make the encounter trivial...

If only you'd read the posts where people recognize this as an option and the posts where people explain why it is not the panacea it is presented as.

Out of curiosity, what measures do you believe the investigator should take to prepare himself against the proposed vescavor swarm? What measures does any non-caster have against such a swarm? Most all the tools that people so blithely suggest as the solution against swarms for such characters are ineffective in this case.

People need to stop acting as if encounters with swarms are not extremely challenging and incredibly dependent on correct party composition past the very early levels. When swarms become diminutive, have dozens of HP’s, have elemental resistance(s), hit you harder than your piddly splash weapons hit them and have additional special attacks like poison or ability damage etc., the solutions are an AOE spell, a specialized piece of equipment or avoidance; if the party doesn’t have these tools, the GM is playing rocks fall, you die.

Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action.

You are not performing a standard attack action that meets the criteria for vital strike, you are casting a spell that allows you to make a ranged touch as result of the spell. Your standard action was casting the spell and that spell happened to result in an attack roll that is not itself a standard action and therefore fails to meet the criteria for vital strike.

It's about 80/20 for us. Most of the work is done away from the table but we have a couple members that do not have access to Herolab outside of our weekly sessions. They need a few minutes to update their leveled characters on the GM's computer before we can play.

I'm surprised that anyone finds leveling takes an extensive chunk of time, even for people that like to level up organically based on events in the game. Don't you know exactly what you're going to add to your character the moment it hits next level? Haven't you been chomping at the bit now that's it's been several sessions since you last leveled and you feel that next level coming on soon? Maybe that's just me, I dunno, but I am ready to go maybe 10 minutes after the GM says we leveled, especially since we started using Herolab.

Maybe a monster tactician inquisitor using a reach weapon? Summon a phalanx of disposable meat shields that act as the true front line. Monster tacticians get access to exceptional summons that other summoners don't and are very good in some cases. Also, sharing teamwork feats with your summoned creatures? OMG, yes please.

Take the teamwork feats that boost your AC and saves when adjacent to allies to toughen up you and your summoned creatures. Or the teamwork feats that pump AoO's and focus on those. Or the teamwork feats that boost maneuvers and CMB the heck out of everything. Or any other interesting combination of teamwork feats you fancy...you can share any two of yours each time you summon at level 10.

Standard action summons with a min/level duration is just gravy on top of all of that.

Also, grenadier gets you martial weapon proficiency.

I am quite happy with a grenadier that I built though I must admit I haven't actually played her yet. She's tiefling; they have perfect racial stat bonuses for alchemists and their FCB gives extra bomb damage (yum). I pumped her dex and chose a kukri as my martial weapon proficiency because finessable and sweet crits. Then you can get dex to damage with slashing grace by level 5.

She's no powerhouse in melee but can cut things decently enough not to get laughed at according to the bench-pressing document. You can also just get an agile weapon if you don't want to wait or have better things to do with your feats. I didn't have to worry about it because I'd be starting her at no less than level 9. This may not be the funnest character to play from new, having several levels to tough through before getting dex to damage, but YMMV. I do like it very much as a backup level 5 or higher for sure.

You do have a lot of people your group that hit things. If you enjoy healing and are ok with mostly that and buffing with maybe a smidgen of offensive casting in combat, you might consider a silksworn occultist.

Just to give an idea of what they can do: my SSO usually starts combat with a haste spell, then legacy weapon to give +1 and bane to the main tank's weapon, then mirror image on himself just in case (I may cast mirror image sooner if things are scary AF but this usually works out). At that point, there are more buffs available if needed--enlarge, versatile weapon, aegis, resist energy etc.--or healing since it is possible to take a good beating over three rounds. SSO's can get access to most of the healing and condition removal spells and, for those that they don't, his stellar UMD with class bonus more than suffices. Since, generally speaking, SSO's get lots of spells, both known and per day, he's also got a handful of debuffs and SoS spells--murderous command, glitterdust, suggestion, dispel magic, aversion etc.--for those occasions when no one needs a buff or heal. The DC's are not the greatest as a 6/9 caster but that's not a big problem, just gotta be judicious about who he points at with what spell.

On top of no shortage of useful but not necessarily aggressive things to do IC, he has tons of OOC utility spells and abilities--fly, mind's eye, object reading, rope weave, invisibility sphere etc.--and oodles of skills, 9/level as a human (nice but I might have been better with elf in hindsight--can never have enough mental focus). He is the party diplomancer and trap-finder and basically does everything except actually hit things. He's surprisingly resilient for an arcane caster (best saves in the group which includes a pally and among the highest HP's) and is probably the most roundly capable character I have ever played...again, aside from the fact that he literally does not physically attack.

That said, I specifically chose to limit him in combat this way; I, too, play in a larger group so can afford to let others do the hitting. You can likely find a way to make even an SSO physically menacing enough in combat if you really wanted to. I have stayed away from evocation and necromancy so you could also make different implement choices to get a different sort of caster-y SSO than I have. It's such an incredibly versatile chassis! The only negative thing I could say is that, like with most arcane casters, efficacy does depend on level. The first 6 levels were very painful but we are level 9 now; things have become comfortable and will only improve in the future.

What level?

Since you mentioned an Occultist, a geomancer has an Inspire Courage-like ability called Dominion that buffs your party based on investing mental focus points in your surrounding terrain each day. With that and the Trappings of the Warrior panoply you can be a great melee contributor and team player. It should play like an int-based druid with decent utility and skills but no pet or wild shape of course.

Occultist is such a cool class BTW. I’m currently playing a silksworn that plays nothing like that geomancer would despite sharing the base class.

Swashigator is a great choice but no reason that a straight strength investigator is not also a great choice. I have one built that makes use of the Healer's Hands and Incredible Healer feats if you are interested.

How about a synergist witch that has great AC and TWF's with pounce as of level 9 from his improved familiar? Ends up as CL18 and gets full 9 levels of spells by level 20. Also fairly skillful as an int caster.

Instead of front-lining yourself, how about a monster tactician inquisitor that summons a phalanx of the most suitable meat shields and uses reach tactics? Sharing your teamwork feats with your summons is the cat's pajamas!

Gotta walk the dog right now. If you want to see any of these, let me know.

The occultist class in general has a lot of fiddly bits. The geomancer also seems to require a constant awareness of what sort of terrain you occupy at any given time which might be a bit of a nuisance in the long run. If your player feels overwhelmed or thinks the geomancer looks like a lot to manage, I think a natural philosopher investigator would be a similar but less complex option. It seems like it would be easier to DM for as well, having no constant need to decide on a terrain type and no need to address psychic magic. YMMV

born_of_fire wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

Barbarian.

Dwarf (doesn't keep 30', but keeps "full speed").
Travel Domain.

I thought of barbarian and travel domain but is giving a speed increase the same as allowing you to move at full speed or is it just offsetting a penalty that other characters would simply not incur in the first place?

It depends on Lucy_Valentine's intent and definition.

Dorf is legit either way.

In war, an army's speed is defined by its slowest unit. Unless you are willing to leave the slower members behind, you have to slow yourself down.

If you raise the character's speed to the point where your "weighed down" speed is the same as everyone's unarmored speed... you are going to do fine.

Yes, the end result is the same whether your speed is 30 because you eliminated the penalty or because you added a speed bonus that is equal to the penalty but the methodology is not. You really felt the need to Captain Obvious this one over three hours after Lucy_Valentine specified they were looking for ways to remove the penalty rather than add a speed bonus to offset the penalty? Thanks, I guess.

Barbarian.

Dwarf (doesn't keep 30', but keeps "full speed").
Travel Domain.

I thought of barbarian and travel domain but is giving a speed increase the same as allowing you to move at full speed or is it just offsetting a penalty that other characters would simply not incur in the first place?

It depends on Lucy_Valentine's intent and definition.

Dorf is legit either way.

It is incredibly difficult to skill monkey as a cleric. The class is fairly MAD by default, has no Int synergy and gets 2 skill points per level. I love clerics and being skilly so this has long been a frustration for me. As such, I was very happy with the introduction of the inquisitor. It is much more appropriate for that role, with 6 skill points per level as well as a better class skill list. They don’t heal quite as well as a cleric can and usually does but, relatively speaking, they heal far more effectively than any cleric fills the role of skill monkey.

Bard is also a good route for a skillful healer. Although not a healing powerhouse again, even a straight vanilla bard can work if your group plays tactically, uses diplomacy and stealth where possible as well as brute force to overcome obstacles and really lays down the beats when they do fight. With baked in inspire courage and the right party, it’s very doable.

If you were willing to take up the mantle of Sir Stabsrarely, you might consider a silksworn occultist. I am currently playing one in a homebrew campaign since level 1 where we've just reached level 9 and I'm quite enjoying it, especially now that we are past the lower levels that are painful for any caster-type.

IIRC I have stabbed three things ever, maaaaybe four, but I am a bountiful bag of tricks when it comes to most anything else: I heal, I buff, I debuff, I have a crapton of utility spells plus mental focus powers and, for anything that I can't legit do, like condition removal, I can UMD. I've also got skills coming out the hoohaw and am the party's trapfinder/disabler, diplomancer and walking encyclopedia.

A regular occultist is not a particularly strong melee combat character and the silksworn a little less so but I really like the class. I've made some RP choices that make my character particularly ineffectual in battle however it's such a versatile chassis that you could easily go a stabbier or blastier route than I've opted for. Maybe even stab ten or twelve things by level 9! ;)

Inquisitors have less need to coordinate feats thanks to Solo Tactics. That said, you can’t go wrong with Butterfly Sting and a high crit weapon like a kukri or rapier paired with a friend and their high crit multiplier weapon like say that Dwarf’s x4 heavy pick *wink wink*

A wood oracle can work nicely as an archer and there’s that rock throwing oracle that is pretty cool floating around the boards too.