Changing Ranger or Hunter mental ability dependence without losing nature theme


Advice


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

To elaborate on the topic, I have a player that wants to play a ranger or hunter but doesn't want to be reliant on her WIS score, but still wants access to magic, and doesn't want to lose the nature vibe that the classes have.

This rules out the Ranger archetypes that pass up spells, and also any archetype that ditches the likes of Survival, Geography and Nature. HALP!


As far as I know you are looking at homebrew here. I would look at the feyspeaker druid for inspiration and work from that.

Or just let the player know that they need to use one of the 946 class/archetypes that are available instead of insisting on #947 being created for them, depends on your GMing style.


Totus Gnarus wrote:

To elaborate on the topic, I have a player that wants to play a ranger or hunter but doesn't want to be reliant on her WIS score, but still wants access to magic, and doesn't want to lose the nature vibe that the classes have.

This rules out the Ranger archetypes that pass up spells, and also any archetype that ditches the likes of Survival, Geography and Nature. HALP!

There is the option of oracle. Charisma based casting and choose nature themed mystery. That may help them. If they want a companion that can be picked up too with a little investment.


I take it that Hunter Archetype is out? The urban or court one?


Ranger requires a 2 stat point investment in Wisdom to get a 12 at first level, then you need to acquire a +2 wis item like a headband by the time you hit 10th level to get full advancement. With that you get FULL access to all of the ranger's spell casting ability.

Rangers don't even cast spells until 4th level, so you could go with a 10 wis and just depend on headbands for casting stat. Acquiring a +2 headband by 4th level is way early, but it isn't impossible. And aquiring a +4 headband at 10th level should be easy. As long as the ranger doesn't dump wis they can depend on items to boost their wis enough to cover basic casting stats.

Though honestly a 12 wis is seriously basic investment. Most of the saves you really, really want to make are will based. Having an extra +1 to save for the low low cost of 2 stat points is totally worth it.

So everything said, I've got zero sympathy for your player. Suck it up and invest 2 character points in a good stat that most full BAB progression classes do if they can afford to at all.

Now if your wis hating nature lover want access to a different class' spell list, come back and talk to us. Maybe he wants to be a nature loving bow user with access to the wizard/sorcerer spell list? Or cleric list. Those things are possible too, but not as a Ranger/Hunter.


If the animal companion isn't too important, might I suggest the Occultist with the Geomancer Archetype (or naturalist archetype)

It gets the skills you desire, it's intelligence based instead of wisdom based. And you have cool nature themed abilities.


Totus Gnarus wrote:
To elaborate on the topic, I have a player that wants to play a ranger or hunter but doesn't want to be reliant on her WIS score, but still wants access to magic, and doesn't want to lose the nature vibe that the classes have.

Are they somehow convinced they must dump Wisdom to play their character or something?

Either find something close enough to Hunter/Ranger, as mentioned above, or just give them Cha-based casting instead of Wisdom on the Hunter/Ranger. Literally a downgrade.


Quote:
and also any archetype that ditches the likes of Survival, Geography and Nature

I wouldn't worry about this part. Anybody can take those skills, traits can make one or more of them class skills, and a feat can make up the rest of the difference.

Re: Wisdom, you can almost dump it as a ranger. They need very little to function unless you have some weird build idea focused on spells that allow saving throws. So long as you have 10 + spell level by the time you get access to that spell level, fuggedaboutit!

Sovereign Court

Fey Trickster Mesmerist maybe?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
Meirril wrote:

Ranger requires a 2 stat point investment in Wisdom to get a 12 at first level, then you need to acquire a +2 wis item like a headband by the time you hit 10th level to get full advancement. With that you get FULL access to all of the ranger's spell casting ability.

Rangers don't even cast spells until 4th level, so you could go with a 10 wis and just depend on headbands for casting stat. Acquiring a +2 headband by 4th level is way early, but it isn't impossible. And aquiring a +4 headband at 10th level should be easy. As long as the ranger doesn't dump wis they can depend on items to boost their wis enough to cover basic casting stats.

Though honestly a 12 wis is seriously basic investment. Most of the saves you really, really want to make are will based. Having an extra +1 to save for the low low cost of 2 stat points is totally worth it.

So everything said, I've got zero sympathy for your player. Suck it up and invest 2 character points in a good stat that most full BAB progression classes do if they can afford to at all.

Now if your wis hating nature lover want access to a different class' spell list, come back and talk to us. Maybe he wants to be a nature loving bow user with access to the wizard/sorcerer spell list? Or cleric list. Those things are possible too, but not as a Ranger/Hunter.

Firstly, the passive-aggression is not required. Secondly, it's not a matter of a player coming to me and demanding that I homebrew for them to cater to their desires. They don't even know that this thread exists, I've done it because she has spoken to me about it in passing. Thirdly, 'Wisdom-hating' is quite far off the mark. She is intending to play a character that runs into a situation half-cocked, then tries to drag herself out of it. There are many reasons why this character has a low Wisdom score, though with the entirely mechanics-driven response you've given me, I can't imagine those reasons would align with your expectations during character design.

That said, the 'nature-loving bow user with the Wizard/Sorcerer list' does interest me, though if it's what I suspect, it's actually the Magus list, which is far less interesting.

To the rest of you, I appreciate your responses, they've given me several options to take to her, so that will be an interesting conversation. I think she'll particularly like the Geomancer Occultist.


The Occultist just seems like a good chassis for what you indicted. She can be brash, impulsive and smart. And, depending on how you feel about it, she could go elf for some extra natury vibes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
Legowarrior wrote:
The Occultist just seems like a good chassis for what you indicted. She can be brash, impulsive and smart. And, depending on how you feel about it, she could go elf for some extra natury vibes.

Funnily enough, she's already an elf, forlorn specifically. I've been reading through the Occultist, and it seems like a fantastic fit for her. I still need to figure out the specifics, but I think she'll really enjoy it. Thanks again, people!


Totus Gnarus wrote:

Firstly, the passive-aggression is not required. Secondly, it's not a matter of a player coming to me and demanding that I homebrew for them to cater to their desires. They don't even know that this thread exists, I've done it because she has spoken to me about it in passing. Thirdly, 'Wisdom-hating' is quite far off the mark. She is intending to play a character that runs into a situation half-cocked, then tries to drag herself out of it. There are many reasons why this character has a low Wisdom score, though with the entirely mechanics-driven response you've given me, I can't imagine those reasons would align with your expectations during character design.

That said, the 'nature-loving bow user with the Wizard/Sorcerer list' does interest me, though if it's what I suspect, it's actually the Magus list, which is far less interesting

I'm a bit offended by being called passive-aggressive. I'm snarky, rude, confrontational and if anything aggressive. Not some pansy passive-aggressive. I don't feel a need to pretend to be nice when I certainly don't mean it.

Though strangely enough, I'm also helpful. So I suppose my answers can be a bit confusing. /shrug

And if anyone is being mechanical, its the OP. Are you RPing a character or your stats? Do you insist your stats need to match your persona? If you get stuck on the numbers there are a lot of players that should be much more rude than myself since its popular to dump cha.

Now, lets talk about making a nature based warrior that casts arcane. I'll agree that Magus is easy, but not the sorcerer/wizard list. Fortunately, there are other ways to be a bow using caster.

What I believe are the two best ways to accomplish this involves prestige classes. Specifically Eldritch Knight and Arcane Archer.

Arcane Archer is the harder one to qualify for. That +6 BAB probably means using 7 levels to qualify for entry. My suggested path would be 2 levels of Wizard, and 5 levels of either Ranger or Fighter. You could go Sorcerer and/or Bloodrager instead but if you want to be more ranger-like having int be one of your primary stats helps out with skill points. Personally I lean towards fighter because of weapon training, armor training, weapon specialization, the bonus feats, and the skill points being the same as Wizard (2+int). But honestly ranger has a lot going on for it too. This build makes for a weak caster, but strong archer.

Eldritch Knight is special. You can be a nearly full wizard and have a fairly decent BAB. The fastest way to enter the prestige class is by being a Ganzi with the Weaponplay racial trait. Every Ganzi has one oddity so this doesn't cost anything. If you do this you can be a 5th level wizard and then enter Eldritch Knight at 6th. Otherwise you need to be a 5th level wizard or 6th level sorcerer and take 1 level in a class that gives you proficiency with all martial weapons. Fighter is the natural selection since it stacks with the prestige class. Barbarian or ranger are good too.

I do not recommend Sorcerer if you want to emulate a Ranger, but only because you'll be starved for skill points without boosting int and Sorcerers don't need to boost int and trying to do weapon combat with an Eldritch Knight kind of asks you to have a decent con and str or dex, demanding cha and int as well is going to leave you spread out too much to be effective. I will say that Sorcerer with the Fey, Verdant or Unicorn bloodlines are tempting. They all give a nature feel to the character. But again, I'd be concerned with a lack of skill points.

The Eldritch Knight build is a pure caster build. You give up 1 or 2 caster levels for a boost in BAB. Honestly not a bad trade. I do not consider it worthwhile to go get prestigious spellcaster for this build. You should be feat starved without using 2 feats to get 1 caster level back. Just use the 2 feats you would of used to get better at using weapons.


One thing I neglected to mention, gear support for an arcane caster that is going to insist on using a weapon is going to be huge. Due to splitting stats you'll want both a belt and headband. Actually due to poor BAB the character will probably want to boost their combat stat before casting stat. Then add a weapon to an arcane caster's normal shopping list and...its just expensive. So the character should be a little weaker than others in the party that choose to do one thing. The builds have options, but non-standard build come at a cost. This time the cost is being a little behind everybody that went single class.


Feyspeaker Druid could get your player very close to the goal.

It could also be used as a guide to make hunter or ranger themed versions of the concept


The problem with the fey speaker might be the lack of martial weapon proficiencies and the fact that it uses the wizards BAB.

It felt like the OP was looking for something that was a bit more weapons focused, since he was looking at the Ranger or Hunter classes to begin with.


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OP seems to be happy with the option chosen. We should leave at that unless they come back and ask for more.


The occultist class in general has a lot of fiddly bits. The geomancer also seems to require a constant awareness of what sort of terrain you occupy at any given time which might be a bit of a nuisance in the long run. If your player feels overwhelmed or thinks the geomancer looks like a lot to manage, I think a natural philosopher investigator would be a similar but less complex option. It seems like it would be easier to DM for as well, having no constant need to decide on a terrain type and no need to address psychic magic. YMMV

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