Who is there no love for the Fighter (archer archetype) in this thread? Full BAB plus cool tricks like ranged disarm.
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Who is there no love for the Fighter (archer archetype) in this thread? Full BAB plus cool tricks like ranged disarm.
Because it makes it so you can't use Gloves of Dueling, you lose Armor Training which actually does something with the high dex needed for archery, and ranged maneuvers are terrible and are replicated by targeting feats in the Ranged Tactics Toolbox. It's a strict downgrade to a CRB fighter.
Fighter is probably the best option but I prefer Ranger for an archer concept.
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Who is there no love for the Fighter (archer archetype) in this thread? Full BAB plus cool tricks like ranged disarm.Because it makes it so you can't use Gloves of Dueling, you lose Armor Training which actually does something with the high dex needed for archery, and ranged maneuvers are terrible and are replicated by targeting feats in the Ranged Tactics Toolbox. It's a strict downgrade to a CRB fighter.
Ah, that's a real shame. I hadn't checked out the Ranged Tactics Toolbox. I hate it when they make their own previous products obsolete, though.
Zen Archer does get all the archery feats, and sooner than the fighter. Fighter pulls ahead in pure DPR at higher levels, but Zen Archer has much more utility both in combat and out of combat.
You can be a really good archer with many other classes BUT you won't be able to get the full list of feats with any other class.
Pretty much this all day. No armor training but an inherent bonus to AC with greater mobility and much better saves.
A Dominated Fighter Archer ruins the party's day pretty dang quick.
A key thing for a Zen Archer after about level 6 is to start to leverage your other abilities and flexibility (Ki powers and your Point Blank Master feat actually mean you are really good wading into the middle of a combat - which is unusual for an archer but amazingly effective).
My PFS Zen Archer I multi classed into Druid - for flavor reasons and for extreme flexibility (at the expense of some archery ability) but a straight Zen Archer is quite strong - it is phenomenally front loaded. This also means that you have a LOT of flexibility with your feats - you can and I would say should pick feats to let you be good at something else that helps your party - give yourself some flexibility. Zen Archers are also far far less MAD than most monks - which also gives you a great deal of flexibility (WIS is really really key for you) - you probably should have a pretty solid STR (for damage flexibility) vs the more usual high DEX for most archers - though DEX is still helpful for saves and defenses and eventually considering getting Combat Reflexes.
If you GM allows Bracers of Falcon's Aim it is an amazing item for any archer (+3 Competence to Perception, +1 Competence to ranged attacks and your crit range changes to 19-20/x3 - doesn't stack with other effects to increase crit range but for a 4000gp item is amazing - so amazing that PFS banned it)
This was banned because it was flagrantly mispriced.
Compare it to Bracers of Archery and you'll see why. The designers erred and used the straight Spell Level x CL x 1000 gp for the pricing, ignoring the Master Rule of "Similar Item pricing First".
Did they ever correct the pricing on the Bracers of Falcon's Aim?
==Aelryinth
Honestly? Bog standard paladin.
Smite works perfectly fine through a bow. And you still do great damage even if you pick up a sword. Your sword bond isn't limited by weapon type, either.
There really is very little to compete with a 24 Cha Paladin with Sword Bond active on their bow Smiting an enemy for +7 th/+20 damage and auto crits.
And then turning around and being able to do it with a sword, too!
==Aelryinth
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If all you want to do is kill dudes with arrows, Fighter works. If you want to kill dudes with arrows and be useful in non-combat situations, Zen Archer, Ranger, Slayer, Barbarian, Bloodrager, Exemplar Brawler, Cavalier, or Inquisitor are better options.
Did I say otherwise, or is this thread not about 'what would you play'?
Any full BAB class that let's me do something other than shoot things. Ranged combat can get really boring because all you do is deal damage without putting yourself in much risk. I don't need to choose the optimal class because archery is one of the strongest builds in the game anyway. As long as I pick a class with a decent BAB and maybe a bonus feat or two, I'm going to be a powerhouse.
Also, inquisitor of Erastil. Or Cleric of Erastil. You may not have full BAB, but divine power will eventually take care of that for you and the judgements with bows are awesome.
For third party stuff, I recommend the marksman from Dreamscarred Presses's ultimate psionics. They're tailor made for it. Also stalkers using the Solar Winds path.
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If you want pure damage dealing arrow slinging never missing type.
Fighter (no archetype) - Weapon and Armor Training, Feats all the time (though honestly Zen Archer is so front loaded it actually gets more), access to feats none of the others can get, and Gloves of Dueling. (Oh yeah, and don't bother with the Snap Shot chain (or at least not until after level 12))
But each of the classes you mentioned brings a different set of things they are best at to the table.
(Personally I like the fighter (for this one thing), it makes you ridiculous in combat, with weaknesses you have to shore up lest you kill your own party)
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The Snap shot tree is only available to fighters.no, it's not. Zen archers don't even need to take it. Point blank master is fighter only, except for Rangers, slayers and zen archers.
Kind of, since they get reflexive shot which is basically Snap Shot (but it doesn't count as snap shot as a pre-req, at least as written). So if you want that extra 10 feet from Improved you still end up taking an almost entirely redundant Snap Shot. If you're GM counts it as the feat, then yeah you don't end up paying the pure tax, which is nice.
How would a Bloodrager measure up as an archer? Arcane Bloodline > get Spider Climb and Haste while using a bow > potentially grab Rage Powers via Primalist stuff. Lacking the key Fighter bonus feats would suck, of course.
Personally, I think I'd either play a Weapon Master (for being great at this weapon thing) or a Paladin depending on the campaign. The nice thing about both these options is you don't necessarily need to use a bow if you don't want to. I've been sorely tempted to make a halfling slinger using Warslinger and the Divine Hunter archetype.
Zen archers are just really good.
There are weird combinations I'd suggest but they take dips into other classes to really come online so I won't suggest them.
Who is there no love for the Fighter (archer archetype) in this thread? Full BAB plus cool tricks like ranged disarm.Because it makes it so you can't use Gloves of Dueling, you lose Armor Training which actually does something with the high dex needed for archery, and ranged maneuvers are terrible and are replicated by targeting feats in the Ranged Tactics Toolbox. It's a strict downgrade to a CRB fighter.
Of course, you're assuming that you're going to be able to get your hands on Gloves of Dueling when you get the 15000 gp for them. If your campaign is out in some dump that doesn't have a Lord Wal-de-Mart's handy, you might not want to assume you can get these.
Trading out Armor Training could still hurt, but if you're super-pumping Dexterity beyond the armor Dexterity limitations that Armor Training can get you off the hook for, trading out Armor Training might be a moot point.
If you are worried about will saves then go dwarf and take steel soul and iron will.
Considering what I saw our rogue do in Rise of the Runelords yesterday evening, I'm voting rogue here.
Find a way to keep your rogue unseen (improved invisibility works like a charm), and possibly hasted, and you're going to be dealing out the most ludicrous amounts of obscene damage in horrific amounts all day long.
I still haven't remembered how to blink after watching that display.
No love for the Sohei?
Shoots the most arrows bar none AND gets the fighter's weapon training to boot.
1) Not everyone is willing to go for the mounted archer type of character... unless they find an alternate feature to replace the mount by something else.
2) The base damage of your arrows is fixed, where the zen archer can be improved via Ki Arrows.
Still, UNlike the zen archer, the sohei CAN combine Rapid Shot, Manyshot and other extra attacks when flurrying with his weapons of choice. The zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot when flurrying, but the sohei can.
In the end though, you kinda get the same character roleplay-wise, as both archetypes are for the same class.
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Yeah i'm with TOZ straight up Fighter all the way, don't mess with Archetypes
Sohei doesn't actually get a mount, so while it has some support for it (the feats and the ki power sharing) you are absolutely not forced to pursue a mount.No love for the Sohei?
Shoots the most arrows bar none AND gets the fighter's weapon training to boot.
1) Not everyone is willing to go for the mounted archer type of character... unless they find an alternate feature to replace the mount by something else.
2) The base damage of your arrows is fixed, where the zen archer can be improved via Ki Arrows.
Still, UNlike the zen archer, the sohei CAN combine Rapid Shot, Manyshot and other extra attacks when flurrying with his weapons of choice. The zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot when flurrying, but the sohei can.
In the end though, you kinda get the same character roleplay-wise, as both archetypes are for the same class.
Oh, thanks for clarifying ^_^
For 3PP, the Yabusame (samurai archetype) from Rite Publishing because I helped design it. And because I needed an archer specialist who didn't just lob endless arrow volleys, but rather fired less shots that were far more accurate and damaging - more like the concept of sniper. Most of the yabusame's special archery attacks involve a single shot at its target at great distance and not seeming like a fantasy machine gunner as seems to be other archer schticks...
^Or a real machine gun archer like Lars Anderson . . . .
I'm going with slayer.
Access to Ranger archery feats to get the great ones early. Full BAB with the studied target flexibility. Good skill ranks so you can do something outside of combat. Even some sneak attack thrown in.
^Or a real machine gun archer like Lars Anderson . . . .
I'd rather kill a target while I'm unseen from over a thousand feet away like a real sniper - Lars can't do that, but the Yabusame can.
^Or a real machine gun archer like Lars Anderson . . . .
Lars uses a short bow with no strength bonus and d4 dmg flight arrows. He's a trick shot archer, not a war archer. Against any armored target, he's going to do next to nothing because his arrows can't get through real armor, and he's not accurate to shoot around the armor at speed.
His style of shooting is like being able to juggle eight balls at once. Just because your hands are fast enough to do that doesn't mean you can throw them at someone coming at you with hostile intent and in armor and expect to hurt them.
==Aelryinth
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For 3PP, the Yabusame (samurai archetype) from Rite Publishing because I helped design it. And because I needed an archer specialist who didn't just lob endless arrow volleys, but rather fired less shots that were far more accurate and damaging - more like the concept of sniper. Most of the yabusame's special archery attacks involve a single shot at its target at great distance and not seeming like a fantasy machine gunner as seems to be other archer schticks...
Huh.
Okay. He gets a typeless smite as often as the Paladin. With arrows, no less.
In ONE level, he gets Dex to damage, AND the whole Vital Strike chain for free.
He can slaughter basically any foe from range and is considered the epitome of honor if his foe can't strike back.
And this is a samurai/cavaliar archetype?
I am not impressed, and would never allow the archetype as it stands.
Vital Strike should be open to all melees, or at least all fighters. I'd never give it out to one archetype flat like this.
I would be hugely leery of Dex to damage for archers as a massive damage punch that they simply do not need.
The archetype should have issued a standard challenge to a foe. The bonus should have been to negate cover/concealment of his foe, and a bonus against the ranged return attacks of his enemy. Archers do not need a damage bonus. The bonus should have gone up at the normal cavalier rate, too.
:( Sorry, man, that archetype is just WAY overpowered.
==Aelryinth
All the yabusame's abilities are limited to shooting a bow as a standard action - single shot. So though his abilities are powerful, they are no more powerful than a paladin. A lot can be accomplished with a successful shot, but it has to be a successful shot and he has little else to follow in that round. I think the limitation of single shot on these abilities balance the potential to be overpowered. Historically a samurai is supposed to be a mounted archer expert, but the PF samurai doesn't really support that - the Kaidan setting needed one that fit that concept, so this is why it was created.
In ONE level, he gets Dex to damage, AND the whole Vital Strike chain for free.
I don't see where the yabusame gets the Vital Strike feat chain at all.
He can slaughter basically any foe from range and is considered the epitome of honor if his foe can't strike back.
Only if his foe is not within melee range, if the opponent is using a ranged weapon, the "epitome of honor" still applies. Once the opponent successfully strikes him - he loses that ability.
I would be hugely leery of Dex to damage for archers as a massive damage punch that they simply do not need.
The archetype should have issued a standard challenge to a foe. The bonus should have been to negate cover/concealment of his foe, and a bonus against the ranged return attacks of his enemy. Archers do not need a damage bonus. The bonus should have gone up at the normal cavalier rate, too.
Again, he only gets the massive damage with a single shot standard action a round. Even if he tries to fire multiple arrows in a round he doesn't get any damage bonus except what is normally granted with feats that anybody can take.
If every shot for multiple arrows per round was potential massive damage, I'd agree he's overpowered, but limiting all those special abilities to a single arrow shot around that has to hit is target (if he misses his one shot per round, no advantage is gained) - I feel the archetype is a balanced.
Ulrik the Long Eye, my Urban Barbarian/Invulnerable Rager build.
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Druid.
No bonus feats but you turn into a Huge Air Elemental with a Resizing adaptive long bow and your arrows do 3d6 damage base (before gravity bow) and you get a +4 bonus to str and damage and grab feats as needed. Go Elven or another race to get Prof.
Feats needed:
PBS
Precise
Deadly Aim
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Clustered Shot
Grab eagle domain for Hawkeye (+1/2 druid level to ranged attack roll as a swift, plus Familiar plus Evasion). Use flight to negate cover penalties.
Can always do a 2 level dip + Magical Knack and Shaping Focus.
Hey Aelryinth, have you seen Luring cavalier? Just asking.
Ah, so it's a portmanteau of the lUring Cavaliar challenge.
Which, I will note, I still consider busted as a Smite by Another Name. Only more versatile.
The rest of the Luring Cav's abilities don't stack up nearly as badly as the yamabushi.
Archers don't need huge damage bonuses. The simple fact they get full attacks puts them at the top of the damage roost. Simply getting Dex to damage on all attacks is going to put them head and shoulders above any other class as far as archery damage goes. Accelerated bonuses to hit just make it worse.
==Aelryinth