A character who does a total of 0HP damage over 20 levels


Advice


So had an idea for a character which from a meta game perspective can best be summed up by saying he will never cause a creature HP damage.

Now the trick is still making the character not only fun but effective. Obviously a buffer/healer who does that exclusively fits the bill but that could get old pretty fast.

A Debuffer could also fit the bill but debuff abilities/spells are often situational and can run up against brick walls against certain monster types.

A Combat maneuver Monkey could also be possible but being so situational not sure this is viable without other options on the side.

So I guess what I'm looking for is a bit of an all rounder who is going to remain effective over 20 levels and will be able to meaningfully contribute in all combats. Even though a character may have access to damage abilities he will never use them so they cannot be considered a fall back.

Consider doing HP damage to be against this characters personal doctrine/religion/code

a few notes
Summon Monster is not an option I consider it still causing damage. So anyone thinking arcane controller keep this in mind.
Non Lethal damage .... I'm 50/50 on this so lets say its an option for now
Save or Die effects .... again 50/50 your not causing dmg its just the biggest debuff of all
Attribute damage this is fine

Other than that very interested to hear your ideas. General ideas is what I'm looking for and or specific combo's to build around. No need to flesh things out I can do that ;)
Thanks


I think that an Illusionist or an Enchanter would work just fine for that goal.


A Witch could do the same and has many hexes for debuffs. Think sleep hex....There's also a feat called Merciful spell which causes spells to do subdual damage instead of regular HP damage which can be used in any spellcasting class. Have fun! :)

Grand Lodge

I actually played living greyhawk with a guy who had a character named Pacifista he was a wizard who had no offensive spells. He was effective by always having the right spell for the job


Phasics wrote:

So had an idea for a character which from a meta game perspective can best be summed up by saying he will never cause a creature HP damage.

Now the trick is still making the character not only fun but effective. Obviously a buffer/healer who does that exclusively fits the bill but that could get old pretty fast.

A Debuffer could also fit the bill but debuff abilities/spells are often situational and can run up against brick walls against certain monster types.

A Combat maneuver Monkey could also be possible but being so situational not sure this is viable without other options on the side.

So I guess what I'm looking for is a bit of an all rounder who is going to remain effective over 20 levels and will be able to meaningfully contribute in all combats. Even though a character may have access to damage abilities he will never use them so they cannot be considered a fall back.

Consider doing HP damage to be against this characters personal doctrine/religion/code

a few notes
Summon Monster is not an option I consider it still causing damage. So anyone thinking arcane controller keep this in mind.
Non Lethal damage .... I'm 50/50 on this so lets say its an option for now
Save or Die effects .... again 50/50 your not causing dmg its just the biggest debuff of all
Attribute damage this is fine

Other than that very interested to hear your ideas. General ideas is what I'm looking for and or specific combo's to build around. No need to flesh things out I can do that ;)
Thanks

This will depend on how good your team members are taking people out, and how the DM runs his monsters. I know that I sometimes use numbers against the party so I can more easily get to the back.


Phasics wrote:

So had an idea for a character which from a meta game perspective can best be summed up by saying he will never cause a creature HP damage.

Now the trick is still making the character not only fun but effective. Obviously a buffer/healer who does that exclusively fits the bill but that could get old pretty fast.

A Debuffer could also fit the bill but debuff abilities/spells are often situational and can run up against brick walls against certain monster types.

A Combat maneuver Monkey could also be possible but being so situational not sure this is viable without other options on the side.

So I guess what I'm looking for is a bit of an all rounder who is going to remain effective over 20 levels and will be able to meaningfully contribute in all combats. Even though a character may have access to damage abilities he will never use them so they cannot be considered a fall back.

Consider doing HP damage to be against this characters personal doctrine/religion/code

a few notes
Summon Monster is not an option I consider it still causing damage. So anyone thinking arcane controller keep this in mind.
Non Lethal damage .... I'm 50/50 on this so lets say its an option for now
Save or Die effects .... again 50/50 your not causing dmg its just the biggest debuff of all
Attribute damage this is fine

Other than that very interested to hear your ideas. General ideas is what I'm looking for and or specific combo's to build around. No need to flesh things out I can do that ;)
Thanks

A Rogue who dual wields saps so that he only does Non-Lethal damage in any combat.

A Barbarian who focuses on grapple/pin and trip maneuvers so that the party Rogue can sneak attack. Give him a high UMD skill to use wands and other magic items that help the party.

A Wizard would be a good option with his flexible spell list. Use things like Daze, Flare, Sleep, Color Spray, Hold Person, Charm Person, Charm Monster, Transmute Rock to Mud, Transmute Mud to Rock, Black Tentacles, Web, Wall of Stone, Wall of Force, Enlarge the tank


Phasics wrote:

So had an idea for a character which from a meta game perspective can best be summed up by saying he will never cause a creature HP damage.

Now the trick is still making the character not only fun but effective. Obviously a buffer/healer who does that exclusively fits the bill but that could get old pretty fast.

A Debuffer could also fit the bill but debuff abilities/spells are often situational and can run up against brick walls against certain monster types.

A Combat maneuver Monkey could also be possible but being so situational not sure this is viable without other options on the side.

So I guess what I'm looking for is a bit of an all rounder who is going to remain effective over 20 levels and will be able to meaningfully contribute in all combats. Even though a character may have access to damage abilities he will never use them so they cannot be considered a fall back.

Consider doing HP damage to be against this characters personal doctrine/religion/code

a few notes
Summon Monster is not an option I consider it still causing damage. So anyone thinking arcane controller keep this in mind.
Non Lethal damage .... I'm 50/50 on this so lets say its an option for now
Save or Die effects .... again 50/50 your not causing dmg its just the biggest debuff of all
Attribute damage this is fine

Other than that very interested to hear your ideas. General ideas is what I'm looking for and or specific combo's to build around. No need to flesh things out I can do that ;)
Thanks

On Save or Dies they do HP damage now. IIRC the only exception is phantasmal killer.

The question is does your character have an issue with suffering which should negate the nonlethal option, or with bringing harm in any form which would get rid of SoD's also. Characters don't know what hit point damage is. Now if the code is worded so you can not attack with the intent to kill that would allow nonlethal damage. Once you figure out how you want to do this from an in game p.o.v it will be easier to figure out.


In 3.5 I played a beguiler through 12 levels with causing zero HP damage and taking exactly two injuries. It was epic.

Based on this I think an Illusionist would be a great idea, just stay away from shadow evo etc.


Mystic theurge of some reasonably nonviolent deity---go for support, buffs, debuffs and battlefield control. You bring a massive amount of utility to the party you're in.

Back in the day in Shadowrun, I played a mage that NEVER killed anyone (anyone including basically anyone metahuman). I hadn't actually planned this in advance and only noticed when doing some counterintelligence on the streets and found that the 'word on the street' was that 'he never kills anyone' Afterwards I just decided to run with it.


monk of the lotus, pure pacifist awesome


Haven't you noticed? There's a loophole:

A total of 0 damage over 20 levels. Play a lawful neutral cleric that is obsessed with their hurt equalling their healing precisely. Keep a running total. :P


Umbral Reaver wrote:

Haven't you noticed? There's a loophole:

A total of 0 damage over 20 levels. Play a lawful neutral cleric that is obsessed with their hurt equalling their healing precisely. Keep a running total. :P

Umbral...you are a sick puppy. Fun...but skeery. You always seem to come at a thread from an unpredictable angle. Skeery...fun. :P

Greg


Umbral Reaver wrote:

Haven't you noticed? There's a loophole:

A total of 0 damage over 20 levels. Play a lawful neutral cleric that is obsessed with their hurt equalling their healing precisely. Keep a running total. :P

ok thats just awesome and deserves its own character ;)


This brings me back to my absolutely first D&D character and game. Let's just say we had a TPK vs a bunch of kobolds in our first encounter, and when we rerolled and redid the same adventure we didn't fare any better.


wraithstrike wrote:
Phasics wrote:

So had an idea for a character which from a meta game perspective can best be summed up by saying he will never cause a creature HP damage.

Now the trick is still making the character not only fun but effective. Obviously a buffer/healer who does that exclusively fits the bill but that could get old pretty fast.

A Debuffer could also fit the bill but debuff abilities/spells are often situational and can run up against brick walls against certain monster types.

A Combat maneuver Monkey could also be possible but being so situational not sure this is viable without other options on the side.

So I guess what I'm looking for is a bit of an all rounder who is going to remain effective over 20 levels and will be able to meaningfully contribute in all combats. Even though a character may have access to damage abilities he will never use them so they cannot be considered a fall back.

Consider doing HP damage to be against this characters personal doctrine/religion/code

a few notes
Summon Monster is not an option I consider it still causing damage. So anyone thinking arcane controller keep this in mind.
Non Lethal damage .... I'm 50/50 on this so lets say its an option for now
Save or Die effects .... again 50/50 your not causing dmg its just the biggest debuff of all
Attribute damage this is fine

Other than that very interested to hear your ideas. General ideas is what I'm looking for and or specific combo's to build around. No need to flesh things out I can do that ;)
Thanks

On Save or Dies they do HP damage now. IIRC the only exception is phantasmal killer.

The question is does your character have an issue with suffering which should negate the nonlethal option, or with bringing harm in any form which would get rid of SoD's also. Characters don't know what hit point damage is. Now if the code is worded so you can not attack with the intent to kill that would allow nonlethal damage. Once you figure out how you want to do this from an in game p.o.v it will be...

Totally get where your coming from but I wanted to leave it vague to get the widest variety of suggestions and then narrow it down from there.

Obviously there is a difference between damage/injury and pain. i.e. nonlethal might not kill you but non-lethal is also what is used for torturing people, since you can keep piling on the non-lethal all day long and they won't die.

The reason I proposed the question in a OoC fashion was exactly becuase a character doesn't get the concept of a Hit Point.
I find it easier to wrap flavor and RP around mechanics than the other way round otherwise I often end up with great RP ideas that just don't fit into the mechanics.

But you make a valid point. cheers


A bard would be a good way to go, bardic performance can buff, debuff, and heal. Their spell casting abilities usually fallow suit, and they make the most effective skill monkeys.
A generalist wizard who focuses on problem solving with the right spell is another way to go.

The Exchange

I always play hippie thieves, exchanging out sneak attack for FBF and using FBF on initiative, AC, etc. Have good mods for Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Pick Pockets, Disable Device, Intimidate, Bluff, and Diplomacy.

If I'm doing a solo mission, I'll Stealth around and use Diplomacy etc.

If I'm in a party, I'll scout, remove traps, jam locks so baddies can't escape, use Sense Motive to determine opponent tactics, and stay out of the way to avoid taking damage.


What's FBF?


Fighter Bonus Feat, it was a variant in Unearthed Arcana.

Grand Lodge

MOnk specializing in ropes. Tying up the opponent and making them helpless.

If Non-lethal is an option, whips is also useful to that character who can use it for tripping, disarming or things like that.

for a slight departure but along these lines for a non damaging character...

I used to play GURPS supers and our group had an idea to make a super group based upon the Greek pantheon. So I made Aphrodite. All of my points were put into charisma, essentially. Her stat was SO high that no matter WHAT opponent's the die roll and modifier the result was always "Could never attack you and would be willing to die for you."

That character turned out to be pretty boring as EVERY encounter was the same... Combat was about to begin, I'd ask the bad guys to surrender and they would... on to the next "encounter"...


Krome wrote:

MOnk specializing in ropes. Tying up the opponent and making them helpless.

If Non-lethal is an option, whips is also useful to that character who can use it for tripping, disarming or things like that.

for a slight departure but along these lines for a non damaging character...

I used to play GURPS supers and our group had an idea to make a super group based upon the Greek pantheon. So I made Aphrodite. All of my points were put into charisma, essentially. Her stat was SO high that no matter WHAT opponent's the die roll and modifier the result was always "Could never attack you and would be willing to die for you."

That character turned out to be pretty boring as EVERY encounter was the same... Combat was about to begin, I'd ask the bad guys to surrender and they would... on to the next "encounter"...

heh yeah the one uber trick pony is a bit of a pitfall , sure it works but 20 levels is a long time to be doing the exact same thing


Krome wrote:

I used to play GURPS supers and our group had an idea to make a super group based upon the Greek pantheon. So I made Aphrodite. All of my points were put into charisma, essentially. Her stat was SO high that no matter WHAT opponent's the die roll and modifier the result was always "Could never attack you and would be willing to die for you."

That character turned out to be pretty boring as EVERY encounter was the same... Combat was about to begin, I'd ask the bad guys to surrender and they would... on to the next "encounter"...

Not even one of the bad guys had Unfazeable and Indomitable or even simple Berserker?


Closest I've got to this was when I played a 3.5 Rogue in a campaign featuring mostly undead and constructs...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A Beguiler in my RotRL game did a total of 12 lethal damage over 3 years of playing (nonlethal count is far higher due to Whelm spells).


Enchanters are definitely a good option for this. I'm playing an Infernal sorceror (only level 4 currently), and I think I've done maybe 6 points of damage the entire campaign. Mostly, I use charm, fear, and hypnotism. I've actually kept the party from killing a couple of dozen low-level bandits, disgruntled farmers, and enemy soldiers, as well as an unlucky raven that our ranger decided to try to kill for no good reason.

Of course, the PARTY has done a ton of damage, but your restrictions mentioned nothing at all about my minions...er, my companions.

The problem, of course, is when the enchanter goes up against the undead. You pretty much have to do damage to the undead to stop them, as very few charm-like options exist. The only way is probably to be an Undead bloodline sorceror, and go for the charms.


Umbral Reaver wrote:

Haven't you noticed? There's a loophole:

A total of 0 damage over 20 levels. Play a lawful neutral cleric that is obsessed with their hurt equalling their healing precisely. Keep a running total. :P

I was going to say an enchanter/utility wizard, but this idea is pure awesome. Going to need to make a character like that sometime.


Necroluth wrote:


The problem, of course, is when the enchanter goes up against the undead. You pretty much have to do damage to the undead to stop them, as very few charm-like options exist. The only way is probably to be an Undead bloodline sorceror, and go for the charms.

Hold undead, Command undead, Control undead; for all your necro-enchantment needs. Just be sure you don't take necromancy as a restricted school of you go specialist enchanter.


I would go with a bard, using buffs, debuffs, and some healing, as well as out of combat utility through skills. For additional benefit in combat, you could be aiding the others, possibly with the bodyguard feat to allow you to help out your team-mates a lot. A whip will allow you a bit more flexibility, and the choice of trip attacks, if offense is necessary.

Edit: For higher levels, you might tap into duelist to gain the parries to further assist you friends.


I played in a party for a while that had a cleric that did nothing but buff and heal. He had boots of springing and leaping and a staff of healing, plus all kinds of potions and and ointments. All he did was leap from character to character keeping hp up and what not, he never went on the offensive at all. I think we ended up at 14th level before the group broke up. It was a fun and very different.


I just hope you dont fight undead. They are immune to lot of this stuff. My 3.5 party had a cleric/bard that never even drew a weapon his entire carier or cast a spell on a monster.

Sovereign Court

Khuldar wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:

Haven't you noticed? There's a loophole:

A total of 0 damage over 20 levels. Play a lawful neutral cleric that is obsessed with their hurt equalling their healing precisely. Keep a running total. :P

I was going to say an enchanter/utility wizard, but this idea is pure awesome. Going to need to make a character like that sometime.

How does that work exactly, you can't heal others for the amount of damage you've done, that's a ludicrous example of metagame balance, "yeah I killed 33 people in my career, but i healed the guys in my party and the people hurt in that fire, so I've never hurt anyone.

Sczarni

Phasics wrote:

So had an idea for a character which from a meta game perspective can best be summed up by saying he will never cause a creature HP damage.

Now the trick is still making the character not only fun but effective. Obviously a buffer/healer who does that exclusively fits the bill but that could get old pretty fast.

A Debuffer could also fit the bill but debuff abilities/spells are often situational and can run up against brick walls against certain monster types.

A Combat maneuver Monkey could also be possible but being so situational not sure this is viable without other options on the side.

So I guess what I'm looking for is a bit of an all rounder who is going to remain effective over 20 levels and will be able to meaningfully contribute in all combats. Even though a character may have access to damage abilities he will never use them so they cannot be considered a fall back.

Consider doing HP damage to be against this characters personal doctrine/religion/code

a few notes
Summon Monster is not an option I consider it still causing damage. So anyone thinking arcane controller keep this in mind.
Non Lethal damage .... I'm 50/50 on this so lets say its an option for now
Save or Die effects .... again 50/50 your not causing dmg its just the biggest debuff of all
Attribute damage this is fine

Other than that very interested to hear your ideas. General ideas is what I'm looking for and or specific combo's to build around. No need to flesh things out I can do that ;)
Thanks

If you are using 3.5 books there are a TON of things you can do with this...I know there are paths/vows of like non-violence and poverty and stuff that if you make a cleric/paladin and just heal the whole time it would be fun. Not to mention the benefits you get from taking those vows.


Cleric

You can heal, buff, and debuff, without doing damage
You still can serve a vital role to the party
You have a few spells that encourage you not to attack even, like sanctuary.

Most of your party, might even be happier if you spend time on them instead of the enemy.


lastknightleft wrote:
Khuldar wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:

Haven't you noticed? There's a loophole:

A total of 0 damage over 20 levels. Play a lawful neutral cleric that is obsessed with their hurt equalling their healing precisely. Keep a running total. :P

I was going to say an enchanter/utility wizard, but this idea is pure awesome. Going to need to make a character like that sometime.
How does that work exactly, you can't heal others for the amount of damage you've done, that's a ludicrous example of metagame balance, "yeah I killed 33 people in my career, but i healed the guys in my party and the people hurt in that fire, so I've never hurt anyone.

It harkens back to the concept of "active neutrality" For every good dead, you do a bad dead to keep your soul in balance. You smack the orc with your mace for 6 points of damage, you then need to heal 6 points on someone to keep things even. It can be Bob the fighter in your group, or some random stranger. What maters is -your- balance and how you impact the world.

Obviously, you are so bat $*&t crazy wizards can use parts of you as material components for fireballs. But in a totally playable hyper-lawful manner, which is a pleasant change from all those CN nut-jobs.


HaraldKlak wrote:

I would go with a bard, using buffs, debuffs, and some healing, as well as out of combat utility through skills. For additional benefit in combat, you could be aiding the others, possibly with the bodyguard feat to allow you to help out your team-mates a lot. A whip will allow you a bit more flexibility, and the choice of trip attacks, if offense is necessary.

Edit: For higher levels, you might tap into duelist to gain the parries to further assist you friends.

now thats an interesting concept become a true meat shield that doesn't dish out damage only takes it. I think there are some spells that lets you transfer damage from your allies to yourself

and some teamwork feats that let you take hits for your allies if I'm not mistaken ?


Krome wrote:

I used to play GURPS supers and our group had an idea to make a super group based upon the Greek pantheon. So I made Aphrodite. All of my points were put into charisma, essentially. Her stat was SO high that no matter WHAT opponent's the die roll and modifier the result was always "Could never attack you and would be willing to die for you."

I had a similar experience in Champions.

Spoiler:
One player made an uber powerful character, maximizing his points to spend by putting everything through a unique item. By the time he was done, he had the equivalent of a 1000 point character for around 200 points. I glanced at his character sheet and told him I could make a character in five minutes that could take him out. I did and showed him the character sheet and he scoffed. My character, the Incredible Mega-Dude, had all abilities that were just at the top end of human norms. Except Presence. When combat started I made a zero time Presence Attack and completed cowed his character. Then I ordered him to give me his power focus item. He never got in a shot. He was fuming mad when he realized he didn't have any precaution against such a simple tactic.

But on the original topic, I was thinking about doing this with a halfling bard. Armed with nothing more than a dagger, he would use acrobatics to flank enemies and use aid another at every chance. This would be in addition to his arcane buffing techniques.


Did something similar until game ended prematurely (so not to level 20). Character was an enchanter also used illusions. Fashioned the character after the 60s (make love, not war) ideas. Yes the DM provided 'tobacco' for color. Everyone always seemed hungry during this campaign...

Scarab Sages

I like the cleric/bard buffing/debuffing ideas.

If you aren't going to be in a large party, though, stealth & diplomacy/bluff will be very important skills to have. As a bard, some spells can help these skills. (invisibility, eagle's splendor, glibness)

You could also consider picking up the Leadership feat at 7th level and add a damage dealer/tank bodyguard to the party.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
lastknightleft wrote:
How does that work exactly, you can't heal others for the amount of damage you've done, that's a ludicrous example of metagame balance, "yeah I killed 33 people in my career, but i healed the guys in my party and the people hurt in that fire, so I've never hurt anyone.

"Holy one, your humble servant begs forgiveness for upsetting the balance in smiting the infidel that threatened this church. I ask you to guide my hand as it repairs the damage done, to find equilibrium again."

;)


An Inquisitor is also an option, Team work feats with solo tactics, judgment for defensive buffs, some healing magic, be a bodyguard (as per the feat). Same goes with the cavalier, you can even allow allies to gain a temporary team work feat. go order of the shield and be a tank that doesn't attack, with a through the roof AC.


you could just collect nonlethal wonderous items sutch as the decantur of endless water, wands of fire extiguishing, iron bands of burlo, flash bombs, tanglefoot bags and the like.

Sovereign Court

TriOmegaZero wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
How does that work exactly, you can't heal others for the amount of damage you've done, that's a ludicrous example of metagame balance, "yeah I killed 33 people in my career, but i healed the guys in my party and the people hurt in that fire, so I've never hurt anyone.

"Holy one, your humble servant begs forgiveness for upsetting the balance in smiting the infidel that threatened this church. I ask you to guide my hand as it repairs the damage done, to find equilibrium again."

;)

Yeah, but that doesn't take away from the fact that you dealt damage. healing in no way negates dealing damage. it may balance the universal harm done, but you can't deal damage and then because you healed something say you never dealt damage. You still did damage, which means that you didn't hit the stated goal of doing 0 damage over 20 levels.


Are we talking gross damage or net damage? :P


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Are we talking gross damage or net damage? :P

Nets don't do damage ;)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
lastknightleft wrote:
Yeah, but that doesn't take away from the fact that you dealt damage. healing in no way negates dealing damage. it may balance the universal harm done, but you can't deal damage and then because you healed something say you never dealt damage. You still did damage, which means that you didn't hit the stated goal of doing 0 damage over 20 levels.

Semantics. You say you can't subtract healing from damage, he says you can.

What if he proceeds to heal the creature he damaged up to full HP? The damage is undone.

Both views are valid.

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