|
Seems like Rapid Reload is universally required for any gunman and it would make a lot more sense to have that as the first level class ability than "Leap for Cover". Nothing wrong with Leap but it just doesn't stack up to Rapid Reload in terms of "Must Haves".
The class is almost pointless if you have to spend a standard action to load the weapon.
Perhaps the pistol was meant to have multiple shots?
I feel that this is the case or that in our second look at the revised class, this class alone with either get rapid reload for free or something to its effect. Its quite bad for a class to need a specific feat to even be able to play out how it is supposed to.
I'm also curious if there will be spells to jam the gun making it broken, or if that would be in a different book, I suppose shatter could come to the same effect.
I feel that this is the case or that in our second look at the revised class, this class alone with either get rapid reload for free or something to its effect. Its quite bad for a class to need a specific feat to even be able to play out how it is supposed to.
I'm also curious if there will be spells to jam the gun making it broken, or if that would be in a different book, I suppose shatter could come to the same effect.
There are spells that can be used to destroy objects, also they are prone to disarm and sunder rules as well. Why the need for anything special when there is a way already to do it? Hell the way I roll sometimes you don't even have to try to blow my weapon up I do it well enough by myself.
From play-testing this you have to have mad tactical skills to effective play the class. You need to be able to maneuver yet at the same time know when to stay put and reload. Mess up and you are making a new Gunslinger. This makes up for a lot of the more powerful abilities in the game.
Cover and Concealment rules moving through difficult terrain trying to stay with in 20 feet of your opponent with out being engaged in combat.
All of these thing taken into consideration make this class not very friendly to new inexperienced players. That is one of the reasons I like the class.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
Seems like Rapid Reload is universally required for any gunman and it would make a lot more sense to have that as the first level class ability than "Leap for Cover". Nothing wrong with Leap but it just doesn't stack up to Rapid Reload in terms of "Must Haves".
The class is almost pointless if you have to spend a standard action to load the weapon.
I actually agree with you here, but considering that practically everyone clamoured that the Magus needed to have Combat Casting as a Bonus Feat (myself included) and it still ended up without it in the revision, I can't see the Gunslinger magically receiving Rapid Reload, no matter how many people give feedback to the contrary. :(
Alternatively, better gun rules would obviate the need for the feat-as-necessity.
This is the problem I'm seeing with this playtest. We aren't supposed to be playtesting the guns, just the class. The problem being that this class is basically built around this single piece of equipment.
If gun rules were different, this class would be drastically different.
Gun rules can suck overall if that's the intent for the Golarion world. However, the Gunslinger being so heavily focused on this device means that it needs to off set that "suck".
He needs to be effective with his weapon. If he's supposed to be a "single shot per round" type of guy, then he should be getting Vital Strike style benefits or at least something to that effect automatically.
|
|
Alternatively, better gun rules would obviate the need for the feat-as-necessity.
This is certainly true.
As things sit, even with the gunslinger class the archer is still far more potent a ranged attacker. I think people are willing to take a less optimal choice if two options are in the ballpark but as things set archers are still just way ahead of the game here.
First level Archer (point blank, precise shot, rapid shot) -> I get three shots off in the first round for 3d8 damage
First level Gunslinger (point blank, rapid reload) -> I get one shot off for 1d8, spend the rest of the round reloading. I do get to duck behind a crate as a free action though!
I'm not a DPS junky but at some point in the equation a martial class has to be able to crank out some serious damage.
I was figuring the guns would have a lower rate of fire but do more damage but that's not the case.
This is the problem I'm seeing with this playtest. We aren't supposed to be playtesting the guns, just the class. The problem being that this class is basically built around this single piece of equipment.
I agree, being the best gunslinger is nice but if guns are terribly ineffective (and they are) no one is going to play the class.
I keep thinking I'm missing something here. There are definitely some nice features in the class but nothing that overcomes the fact that guns are shackled to a horribly slow rater of fire and just don't do very much damage.
Alternatively, better gun rules would obviate the need for the feat-as-necessity.This is certainly true.
As things sit, even with the gunslinger class the archer is still far more potent a ranged attacker. I think people are willing to take a less optimal choice if two options are in the ballpark but as things set archers are still just way ahead of the game here.
First level Archer (point blank, precise shot, rapid shot) -> I get three shots off in the first round for 3d8 damage
First level Gunslinger (point blank, rapid reload) -> I get one shot off for 1d8, spend the rest of the round reloading. I do get to duck behind a crate as a free action though!I'm not a DPS junky but at some point in the equation a martial class has to be able to crank out some serious damage.
I was figuring the guns would have a lower rate of fire but do more damage but that's not the case.
This is the problem I'm seeing with this playtest. We aren't supposed to be playtesting the guns, just the class. The problem being that this class is basically built around this single piece of equipment.I agree, being the best gunslinger is nice but if guns are terribly ineffective (and they are) no one is going to play the class.
I keep thinking I'm missing something here. There are definitely some nice features in the class but nothing that overcomes the fact that guns are shackled to a horribly slow rater of fire and just don't do very much damage.
Yes but the Gunslinger is more than probably going to hit with that one shot, touch AC is the balancing point as well as x4 crit with pistols. Makes the Killer (Combat Trait) a very cool trait adding +4 crit damage to that one shot.
|
|
From play-testing this you have to have mad tactical skills to effective play the class. You need to be able to maneuver yet at the same time know when to stay put and reload. Mess up and you are making a new Gunslinger. This makes up for a lot of the more powerful abilities in the game.
Cover and Concealment rules moving through difficult terrain trying to stay with in 20 feet of your opponent with out being engaged in combat.
All of these thing taken into consideration make this class not very friendly to new inexperienced players. That is one of the reasons I like the class.
I just don't see how you are rewarded for all this challenging tactical play. The mediocre damage is made up for by...?
Alternatively, better gun rules would obviate the need for the feat-as-necessity.This is certainly true.
As things sit, even with the gunslinger class the archer is still far more potent a ranged attacker. I think people are willing to take a less optimal choice if two options are in the ballpark but as things set archers are still just way ahead of the game here.
First level Archer (point blank, precise shot, rapid shot) -> I get three shots off in the first round for 3d8 damage
First level Gunslinger (point blank, rapid reload) -> I get one shot off for 1d8, spend the rest of the round reloading. I do get to duck behind a crate as a free action though!I'm not a DPS junky but at some point in the equation a martial class has to be able to crank out some serious damage.
I was figuring the guns would have a lower rate of fire but do more damage but that's not the case.
This is the problem I'm seeing with this playtest. We aren't supposed to be playtesting the guns, just the class. The problem being that this class is basically built around this single piece of equipment.I agree, being the best gunslinger is nice but if guns are terribly ineffective (and they are) no one is going to play the class.
I keep thinking I'm missing something here. There are definitely some nice features in the class but nothing that overcomes the fact that guns are shackled to a horribly slow rater of fire and just don't do very much damage.
You only get two shots with a first level archer with rapid reload.
Introduce more guns. Shotguns and revolvers can do less damage while muskets, blunderbusses and the other black power types do more damage due to them having to be reloaded so slowly.
|
|
Sorry, I was thinking second level when the archer gets manyshot and the gunslinger is still doing once shot per round.
Or 5th level when the archer has many shot, rapid shot, and an iterative attack, for 4 attacks while the gunslinger has... one shot.
Without seeing the what additional guns are in the game, or without even a single repeating gun how do we know that's even an option? Maybe there is a fully automatic out there in the future? I just don't know so I base my thoughts on what I can see now.
Sorry, I was thinking second level when the archer gets manyshot and the gunslinger is still doing once shot per round.
Or 5th level when the archer has many shot, rapid shot, and an iterative attack, for 4 attacks while the gunslinger has... one shot.
Without seeing the what additional guns are in the game, or without even a single repeating gun how do we know that's even an option? Maybe there is a fully automatic out there in the future? I just don't know so I base my thoughts on what I can see now.
You don't get an iterative attack until 6th level.
I'd probably consider skipping Rapid Reload entirely, and instead shooting for Lightning Reload Deed (feat) and apply Signature Deed (feat) to it, therefore letting me reload as a free action as long as I have 1 grit in my pool. Now for 2 feats spent you are no longer confined to thinking about reloads as far as iterative attacks, TWF, rapid shot, etc.
I'd probably consider skipping Rapid Reload entirely, and instead shooting for Lightning Reload Deed (feat) and apply Signature Deed (feat) to it, therefore letting me reload as a free action as long as I have 1 grit in my pool. Now for 2 feats spent you are no longer confined to thinking about reloads as far as iterative attacks, TWF, rapid shot, etc.
You do of course realize that rapid reload is a pre-requisite for lightning reload?
And you have to be level 11 to do that, so for over half your adventuring career it doesn't work...
The gunslinger is going to suffer from the same problems as a crossbow user. You will never be able to contribute to combat like a guy using the standard longbow.