Would anyone care to explain why I wouldn't want to take 1 level of gunslinger, sell the gun/ammo and use the money for better gear to start out with? I mean after all, at 1st level everyone pretty much sucks equally, and an extra 1000-1025 gp buys a hell of a lot of edge. (masterwork Breastplate, Greatsword, and Composite Longbow without touching your starting gold, or cut back on the weapons and armor and get a wand or scrolls for one of the casters).
Too much of the gunslinger is workarounds for overly prohibitive firearms rules. To really fix things it is necessary to fix the firearms rules. Otherwise the gunslinger is relegated to being a collection of (in some cases clumsy) workarounds to make firearms playable.
DM intervention and a sense of fair play and decency come readily to mind.
DM intervention and a sense of fair play and decency come readily to mind.
+1
Seriously, how many people out there would seriously be excited to either sell their starting guns for other equipment, or make it to 11th level just to have an infinite ammunition supply to try and sell?
My DM will attest to me being something of a min/maxing munchkin, but I'm really glad no one in my gaming group would stoop to things such as unlimited cash production via rules loop hole, or making a gunslinger ust to sell their class items for more other starting loot.
My DM will attest to me being something of a min/maxing munchkin, but I'm really glad no one in my gaming group would stoop to things such as unlimited cash production via rules loop hole, or making a gunslinger ust to sell their class items for more other starting loot.
Still, with such an obvious loophole, it'd be good to have rules to clear it up. Something like a bonded item would do that, and in fact something akin to spell-prep may not be a bad solution overall~
Make it a third-hand, hand-me-down, battered piece of equipment of a pistol/musket, one the gunslinger is continually tinkering with to keep in working order. It will only work for the 'slinger, and has no measurable monetary value as far as sale, since it only works for that particular 'slinger.
Easy stuff. I just hate that so much time and posting has been wasted over two topics that are obviously going to be amended and are such obvious loophole issues (starting firearm value and secret stash+signature deed ammo creation). There are a metric buttload of other genuine things to discuss to make this a viable class, these two topics are of no merit whatsoever in the big picture.
DM intervention and a sense of fair play and decency come readily to mind.
Forgive the noob question, but why is a one level dip into Gunslinger cheese?
The last campaign I played in started at 2nd level and I came to the table with a 1/1 rogue/wizard. Was this cheese?
Is changing your mind and changing to oracle or whatever after first level cheese? The Wizard starts with a free spellbook with a decent selection of spells in it. If a 1st level wizard wants to give up magic and become a cleric can they not sell their book?
Part of the class is the free gear or am I missing something?
~will
Oh, I know it is cheese of the highest order. That's why I brought it up. It's a mechanical flaw in the rules. It being a bad idea and the DM can block it doesn't change the fact that it's bad design to make something obviously abusable and then expect it to not be abused.
DM intervention and a sense of fair play and decency come readily to mind.
There´s also no rule saying something like "The DM is not allowed to let objects of great weight fall on heroes". Or "The DM is not allowed to change a characters name to douchebag"
|
You want to hear something entirely legal yet letting your character be showered with gold?
From Serpent's Skull:
1.) Serpent's Skull Player's Guide: "Boarded in Cheliax" Campaign Trait -
"You begin the campaign with...200 gp worth of mundane equipment to aid in your exploration of the jungle."2.) Advanced Player's Guide:
p. 330, "Rich Parents" Social Trait - "you enjoy a one-time benefit to your initial finances - your starting cash increases to 900 gp."So that's a perfectly legal 1,100 gp's worth of equipment, only 200 gp of which must be "mundane" (i.e., no tanglefoot bags?) but enough to fabulously equip any character with a horse, saddlebags, and a cart full of adventuring equipment along with masterwork artisan tools. Plus some decent masterwork armor and weapons.
You're only scratching the surface there bucko, you can take a trait to double your starting wealth. Rich Parents can double to 1800.
Never got the interest in spending traits on starting wealth that can be made up in a single encounter in a level or so... I always leaned towards things that would actually stay with your entire adventuring career, like Reactionary and the +2 initiative bonus, or Dangerously Curious for classes that don't get UMD as a skill, etc.
That said, good points are made here - is it really worth while to make a Gunslinger and then sell your guns when you could instead stack some traits and still keep your guns?
From the APG p.326
"When selecting traits, you may not select more than one from the same list of traits (the four basic traits each count as a separate list for
this purpose)."
So yeah you can not pick up rich parents twice and even if you could it increases your starting gold to 900gp not add 900gp to starting gold so taking it the second time would do nothing anyway.
Side note- tanglefoot bags are alchemical not magical so they are mundane.
On topic taking a class for extra gear is just the opposite of min/maxing you get 1000gp worth of stuff easy on your way to 2nd level and that comes in just a couple weeks of play.
I would never want to delay all the special abilities of my real class by level dipping for gold.
|
|
Make it a third-hand, hand-me-down, battered piece of equipment of a pistol/musket, one the gunslinger is continually tinkering with to keep in working order. It will only work for the 'slinger, and has no measurable monetary value as far as sale, since it only works for that particular 'slinger.
Easy stuff. I just hate that so much time and posting has been wasted over two topics that are obviously going to be amended and are such obvious loophole issues (starting firearm value and secret stash+signature deed ammo creation). There are a metric buttload of other genuine things to discuss to make this a viable class, these two topics are of no merit whatsoever in the big picture.
Or they could lower the price to like 100-150g, and have a reasonably priced item.
|
They did the same thing with the 3.5 samurai in complete warrior. So what if you have slightly better gear for A level.
You do know WHY the guns are that expensive, right? It's due to the rarity of the weapons and artificial inflation. In the Pathfinder world setting the guns are supposed to be that expensive. My wife is running a game set in a different setting and we just reduced the price of guns due to no artificial inflation.
There is the factor too that I'd probably kick a player out for taking one level of gunslinger for the free gold. Only a douche would do that and I don't run games for douches.
|
i don't know how your gm's are going for homegame's but my local gm's are going by the specific rules of the pfs organized play, the guns sell for nothing. (including the ammo) this way it doesn't allow that much gold to begin with, and also is it really worth it for someone to put that much effort into a sublimely limited amount of gold?
|
I would like to say agree with previous posters that the gold gain is not significant after say, level 3 or so, and that level is going to be pretty important when your party mates are hitting important levels in their classes faster than you. None of the class features at level 1 are helpful to someone who doesnt wield a gun.
In short, the only way this gunslinger dip is beneficial is if the campaign is only going to run from about level 1-3
Several people have said it, it's worth repeating. Losing a level in your primary class is rarely worth a bit of gold.
In the long term it makes more sense to dip a level of monk, barbarian, or Ranger (guide archetype) to pick up the class bonuses from those classes since those bonuses stick with your character forever and are worth a lot more than the 1000gp you might snag for guns.
Vrischika111 wrote:
I might have missed some conversation, but why no one ever complained about the spellbook of a wizard as "too much starting gold" ? (+ the free masterwork weapon as bonded item)
Vris.
Well for starters you really can't sell the Arcane Bond without making yourself just about unable to cast any spells. Also the cost to replace the Arcane Bonded item is the cost of the master work item plus 200 Gold per Wizard level. Not a cash loop by any means.
Secondly, the Spellbook isn't free it does cost 15 Gold and the spells inside will be worth all of between 50 Gold to 80 Gold at start depending on your INT score. Also not a money loophole.
Well for starters you really can't sell the Arcane Bond without making yourself just about unable to cast any spells.
Similar to the gunslinger selling his guns and being unable to shoot things.
Secondly, the Spellbook isn't free it does cost 15 Gold and the spells inside will be worth all of between 50 Gold to 80 Gold at start depending on your INT score. Also not a money loophole.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook.
Not only that, but dipping 1 level of Gunslinger prevents you from EVER taking levels of Fighter again.
See also: You can't be a fighter to begin with.
Whatever the wizards spellbook and arcane bond aren't the same as the gunslingers guns.
The problem is a 1st gunslinger can take the two pistol option and then sell one of the pistols thus increasing his wealth by level. A wizard doesn't have that option.
Whatever the wizards spellbook and arcane bond aren't the same as the gunslingers guns.
The problem is a 1st gunslinger can take the two pistol option and then sell one of the pistols thus increasing his wealth by level. A wizard doesn't have that option.
Actually this sounds like a good idea. Sell 1 pistol buy some ammo and a close in weapon. By the time you have the feats/levels to dual wield or iterate guns efectively you will have the cash to buy back the pistol.
So it this a good tactic for a lvl 1 gunslinger?
Whatever the wizards spellbook and arcane bond aren't the same as the gunslingers guns.
The problem is a 1st gunslinger can take the two pistol option and then sell one of the pistols thus increasing his wealth by level. A wizard doesn't have that option.
Actually this sounds like a good idea. Sell 1 pistol buy some ammo and a close in weapon. By the time you have the feats/levels to dual wield or iterate guns efectively you will have the cash to buy back the pistol.
So it this a good tactic for a lvl 1 gunslinger?
Not a bad plan. After all, the issue with TWfing with pistls: They aren't light weapons so you take -4 hit when attacking with both with TWFing feat.
|
|
Not a bad plan. After all, the issue with TWfing with pistls: They aren't light weapons so you take -4 hit when attacking with both with TWFing feat.Whatever the wizards spellbook and arcane bond aren't the same as the gunslingers guns.
The problem is a 1st gunslinger can take the two pistol option and then sell one of the pistols thus increasing his wealth by level. A wizard doesn't have that option.
Actually this sounds like a good idea. Sell 1 pistol buy some ammo and a close in weapon. By the time you have the feats/levels to dual wield or iterate guns efectively you will have the cash to buy back the pistol.
So it this a good tactic for a lvl 1 gunslinger?
Until your gun jams which it does once every 4-5 encounters on average. Or until you want to fire a shot then move and fire again without burning grit.
Having two guns is definitely an advantage for this class.
In another thread, I believe Jason mentioned the possibility of throwing in a side bar that lists prices for guns outside of that particular campaign setting.
Yes, please.
Would anyone care to explain why I wouldn't want to take 1 level of gunslinger, sell the gun/ammo and use the money for better gear to start out with? I mean after all, at 1st level everyone pretty much sucks equally, and an extra 1000-1025 gp buys a hell of a lot of edge. (masterwork Breastplate, Greatsword, and Composite Longbow without touching your starting gold, or cut back on the weapons and armor and get a wand or scrolls for one of the casters).
Too much of the gunslinger is workarounds for overly prohibitive firearms rules. To really fix things it is necessary to fix the firearms rules. Otherwise the gunslinger is relegated to being a collection of (in some cases clumsy) workarounds to make firearms playable.
Because it's not worth it. You'd be taking a wasted level in Gunslinger to get $1000 GP that quickly becomes chump change as you level up. I mean WBL at 2nd is 1000 GP by 3rd it's 3000gp. And what do you get? +1 to hit, -1 ACP, and bow with STR bonus.
But the dip is worth it for ANY character concept that will be utilizing guns (ie ranger "hunteersman," Rogue sniper, ect.) since you need to burn the feats for proficiency and grit (to clear jams).
Yes, you make 1k by 2nd (usually), but that's 1K you don't need to spend, which then goes to magic armor or whatever support items.
I was going to rant and rave about gun prices and Society, but that was a different thread. (Also note, no rich parents in Society. You want a gun, you best pick it up via gunslinger).
At the same time, I understand the OPs point.
For the sake of arguement, let's say that the Fighter recieved free Platemail. Would that be balenced? I would consider dipping into fighter as is for the profs, BAB, and the bonus feat (and I have before). Would it still be fair for the fighter to recieve that free 1500g?
The answer should be "no." That free gear is an additional +4 AC, which at low level is a big deal.
Now look at the Gunslinger. Is it the same results?
Arguing that traits can increase your starting cash is a null arguement, since the gunslinger can take those too.
I'll also agree that "The DM won't let you do it" is a poor excuse. While this little loophole isn't game breaking, it is a valid loophole. It's like buying a herd of pigs to send down the dungeon first to set off traps.
