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Yeah, looking over the vid, I'm actually holding a lot of hope for the summoner. I do like the prospect of eidolon subtypes, and it sounds like they are keeping with the idea of a customizable ally. Adding limitations onto the evolutions you can take seems fair, I just hope that all of the eidolon subtypes are equally powerful. It would be interesting, however, to see different outsider types be better at certain roles. Perhaps an azata eidolon would have more powers focused on supporting their team members or having magical abilities, to reflect the fighting styles of lillend and bralani azatas, where a demon eidolon would be better at channeling it's abyssal fury to shatter anything foolish enough to get in it's path. Most eidolons I've seen in play have been pouncing harbingers of death, but that's because almost all of the evolutions are focused on increasing combat capability. I'm actually really looking forward to seeing how they will change how an eidolon evolves, since I really like the idea of things like SLAs and special abilities onto my eidolon, but as it stands, the evolutions to do so either don't exist, cost WAY too much, or are far too weak to justify taking (seriously, 3 evolution points to pick up a 1/day 0 level and a 1/day 1st level spell off of an incredibly restricted list is far too high of a price for such a weak ability).

I think my position officially shifted from cautious to legitimately excited.

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I played in a game for a whole semester with an arcanist in the party, and honestly, I really don't see what the big fuss is about. The player of the arcanist even uses numerous amounts pointers from optimization boards. While the arcanist was certainly strong, I haven't experienced anything that a wizard wouldn't also be able to do. I will certainly say that they are stronger than a sorcerer, but I don't see what the arcanist can do that the wizard wasn't already doing for a long time.

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I started gaming when I was about 11 or 12, so I've got some recollection from what it was like on the player side of the table at that age group.

For starters, please, for the love of god, do not assume they are of a lower level of intellect just because of their age. Instead, expect them to be inexperienced. From my experience, Mary Sues, characters lacking personality or depth, etc. is more likely to stem from being new to gaming more than it is tied to someone's age. Almost everybody I played with who was new tended to have characters who were a little lacking, be they a teenager or an adult, and I've had teens experienced with gaming make deeper characters than adults who are new at the game. Just give them time, and engage them in the story, and you'll see their characters grow.

Also remember that during one's teenage years is usually when they start seeking to develop their identity on their own. Have some fun with this, since it might lead into some interesting role playing. I'd expect a higher degree of chaotic characters simply for the fact that when most teens try to discover who they are, it often comes with renouncing the shackles of tradition. It doesn't mean they will be any less good, but it could mean that playing Robin Hood might be more appealing than Sir Lancelot.

Most importantly: they are people before they are teenagers, and just like any other adult, they run a wide range of personalities. Get past seeing them as teens and look at them as fellow gamers.

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Relevant Wording

Deific Obedience wrote:

Once you’ve performed the obedience, you gain the benefit of

a special ability or resistance as indicated in the “Obedience”
entry for the god to whom you performed the obedience.

The wording is very specific that you gain the benefits after you perform the obedience and the feat never makes mention of picking what SLA you get as soon as you pick up the feat. This makes it seem as though you select which SLA you want each time you perform the obedience rather than being locked into one for all time.

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Honestly... I'm glad the damage dice scaling stayed. I have to say, I'm pretty satisfied with dropping the BAB thing though. Playing one as per the 2nd version of the advanced class guide, it works really well and is fun to play, but holy hell is my accuracy really high with full BAB and being able to buff up every turn and still unleash the hurt. I'm glad to see the blessings got another look, and hope that a lot of the blessings got the same treatment as the example listed. I'm still hoping for thrown weapon compatibility with sacred weapon, since that's more or less the clergy of Desna's whole image in respects to martial combat: chucking starknives at range and dancing with them up close.

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Guild Wars 2 has a really good example of the magic = science sort with the Asura, which is basically a race of gnome-like creatures with a huge proclivity to science. Golems are not actually homogeneous constructions, but several separate pieces bonded together with magical energy fields to maintain their humanoid look and mobility, but require intricate rune carvings that serve as their circuitry and use gems as energy storage and conductors to regulate the magical power in the golems.

One of my DMs also let us buy weird Numerian arrows, one of which had a really complex head that armed itself when fired from a bow, and after it was armed, it would shove a portable hole into a bag of holding once it hit a solid surface, causing the classic black hole to the ethereal plane that we all know and love. Sadly, the magical rpg was a one time deal :(

Lastly, I had a summoner for a one shot who got her powers from magictech. She was a Gathlian magic item craftsman, and made her items by entering a meditative trance to envision the item she wanted to create, plucking a seed off of the plants embedded in her body, and planting them, where she performed a number of rituals so that when the plant flowered (which took as long as the item's craft time), the flower would open, containing the item she wanted to make. Her Eidolon was actually constructed like this, and to power it, she imbued it with a tenth of her soul, modeling it's design off of the visage of someone she had an unrequited love for. The magitech comes in with the fact that her wings and right arm were blown off in a mishap and replaced with magitech prosthetic versions. Her right arm contained a magical device that could open small rifts to summon creatures, as well as a device to convert her eidolon into data to store in a pocket dimension. The arm also served as a general amplifier and focus for her magic (no mechanical differences, it just changed how the somatic components looked). Her wings where a complex series of thin, conductive foil sheets that when she ran power through it, a magnetic field was created that let her fly. Both devices where powered by her body's natural energy, so she had a tendency to eat a lot of sugary foods because using these devices drained her body's energy reserves pretty quickly.

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I'm actually not sure literacy and grasp of numbers should inherently be tied to intelligence. If that's how you want to play your character, go right ahead, but the human species was not rendered permanently stupid until the written word was invented (actually, it's got to take some pretty sharp minds to manage to come up with something as complex as language). Our primitive ancestors were solving somewhat complex physics and engineering problems (like the best materials to make a bow, how to work metal, finding out that atlatls make spears do more damage and throw them farther, finding out the golden proportion of the length of the atlatl to the spear for optimum power, etc) all long before the first letter were scribed onto stone tablets.

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Stats are simply numbers. There's no reason to punish them or force them to do anything. At that point, you're just making arbitrary and unnecessary restrictions on them that adds nothing to the game. Characters are a lot more than an array of number.

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These new iconics never cease to amaze, do they? It's quite rare and refreshing to see a half orc that was born from a consensual pairing. His backstory and motivations are really good, too! I like how in spite of being a warpriest, he actually questions on how he can use his skills at war for good without him forsaking the sword or his warrior mentality at all. It's a really good way of showing the more intricate facets of what it means to be an individual that worships Gorum. Gorum's always been a somewhat iffy deity for me; I thought he was pretty cool as far as warrior gods go, but I found it hard to get inspired by him for the purposes of making a PC. Oloch showed me the errors of that line of thinking.

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Have you looked at Brewer's guide to the Blockbuster wizard? The guide is more or less all about how to make fireball blow s*%$ up with impunity. I believe there's also a metamagic guide out that could be helpful.

Your current feats are definitely solid. As for your future ones, burning spell isn't that good of a feat. The extra damage is just too little for what you're paying for it.

What you're really going to want is a way of changing the element of your fireball. You don't want to be stuck not being able to do anything when you run across a fire immune enemy. Another thing you'll want to keep in mind is metamagic rods. Some metamagic feats are only situationally helpful, or you may find they spell level increase too high for regular use. Think of them like feats you can buy.

Feats you may want to look into:

Persistent Spell (making your enemy have to save twice is really mean)

Elemental Spell (Seriously, you want to be able to bypass fire immunity and resistance. You'll know better than me what enemies you face tend to be immune to. Pick something that isn't commonly resisted. Acid tends to be pretty safe)

If you can spare the space, Dazing and quicken spell can be fun, but these can also be good candidates for rods, plus you've got cold ice strike for swift action casting fun without the metamagic.

Rods You'll want to look at:

Dazing Spell (You'll only get 3 uses per day, and this item is expensive, but a dazing persistent fireball with all of those DC boosts you put on it will really ruin your enemies' day. This one might even be worth making room for as a feat)

Quicken Spell (You know what's better than one explosion? Two explosions! Make your enemies quake at the the sight of your divine fury! This one's more optional, because of cold ice strike, but still helpful.)

Elemental Spell (Being good at elemental rock paper scissors is always good. The nice part about the rods is that you can pull out which one you need at a moment's notice to adapt. This is less needed if you took the feat, but still worth considering.)

Brewer covers metamagic stacking onto fireball pretty extensively in his guide. Because of how variable the game can be, it's hard to suggest exact combinations for mixing the metamagic, since it can vary quite a bit. If you'll be in a lot of enclosed areas, selective is invaluable. If not, don't bother preparing many of them and instead focus on damage. If you're fighting a lot of enemies resistant to fire, make sure you're preparing lightning/frost/caustic balls instead. A little scouting, either through an actual scout, divination, or good ol' fashioned information gathering about your mission really helps here. Eventually, you'll find a formula that works best for your game.

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I actually tend to play characters who are quite physically dissimilar to me, so I mostly play females who are nonhuman. If I end up picking a race with highly mutable features, like a tiefling or aasimar, I usually play up my freedom as much as possible, and apply as many oddities in their physique as possible while still preserving aesthetic integrity (For example, a musetouched aasimar I made has grey skin, starry, semi real butterfly wings, long antennae, hair made out of silk, and jewel-like faceted eyes). The reason for this is because I find part of the fun of role playing is exploring a mind and setting that is distinctly not familiar to me.

Obviously because of my trend towards playing the opposite sex, I have no problem when other people do so. Even those people who are notorious for making fanservice characters to appeal to their personal tastes (this extends past straight men making highly promiscuous females, I've seen gamers of all sexes, orientations, and genders do this and similar things) don't tend to bother me unless they bog down the game. The only real issues I have is when people make characters as a means of preaching their real world morals, political opinions, and religion in-game. I actually received great holy hell from a player before because I made a cleric who followed a non judeo-christian god, and it got even worse when they found out she was a lesbian. Needless to say, that group didn't last long.

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I mostly play whatever game is being played by my local groups. That being said, I really like pathfinder. It gives me a nice range of classes, great lore, a diverse map... D&D 4th ed was fine to me, but I was really disappointed when they killed off my favorite goddess (Eilistraee), though to it's credit, I like how 4e runs paladins a lot more.

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Fetchystick wrote:
This is great. I gave them the banlist information way in advance and said to talk to me if there's anything they want to change so they can play a particular character. There's still a huge amount of time before we can actually start (because of scheduling conflicts) but I'll have to talk to them in more detail about it. If someone is particularly disappointed because they can't play a thing that they want, I'll gladly make an exception. I'm a balance freak, but maybe I should try to repress that a bit more as a DM.

Well, as long as you keep communication open like that, it should be all good. I wouldn't worry too much about your group's optimizer unless they have been problematic and unreasonable in the past. I think really the only classes I'd look out for is maybe the summoner for the new players. Contrary to what a lot of people say, I don't think it's an overpowered class (Wizard beats it out any day of the week if you're clever enough), though the bookwork for one can be overwhelming for a new guy. Alchemists are actually a really nice class for someone who doesn't quite know what they want to do because their class features support a myriad of play styles (ranged combat, melee combat and secondary support "casting"). When it comes down to it though, as long as everyone's having fun, you're doing it right.

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Well, it'll kill most cheesers because coming out that harsh will kill off most players' desire to play. Suthainn said it well: Talk to your players before trying to ban everything. You look less like a tyrant, you'll get more respect from your players, and they will be able to play the character they want to rather than being forced into a rather restrictive list of choices.

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I think a lot of people forget how awesome the forgery part of linguistics can be. In any city that highly values bureaucracy, a good linguistics check and a bit of social engineering can get you almost anything you want as long as you're smart. A party I was in once even managed to acquire a powerful golem because our rogue managed to find some paperwork as a sample and made us an "official" goods distribution form and operation authorization papers.

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Ivan Rûski wrote:
So, is their superpower tutus?

Hey, don't hate on superpowered tutus. They might end up being a magical girl, and everyone knows that a magical girl's power is directly proportional to how cute her costume is.

In all seriousness, I tend to prefer cute or badass superhero costumes but I'm not going to say people who like their fanservice are having wrongbadfun either; fanservice has it's place just as much as everything else. Variety would be nice to see though.

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Well, as long as the inquisitor can cast CLW, the "healer" role is fulfilled with wands. There's not much of a need to put any more investment into healing than that. I've often found that proactive defenses are better at keeping the party alive than having someone who just pumps out healing anyways. In one of my current games, the healer is a warpriest that opens the fight up by stacking on defense spells, distracting the enemy by running up in their face, and buffs up using fervor to go in for the kill, only ever healing to patch up the wounds after the fight or to keep herself running when things go south in the fight.

As for OP's goal of giving someone who wants to play a rogue with healing ability, it depends on if they are looking for a more skill focused character, or want the massive DRR from sneak attack. If it's the first, I would suggest a bard. Sound Striker would offer get back some of the high damage output of the rogue (but spread it out over 10 hits, so DR is a concern) or the songhealer on accounts of it getting the ability to cast Heal as class feature. If they want the sneak attacking, stealthy, assassin like character, the I third the vivisectionist/Chirurgeon. Either play style could fit the inquisitor. Wands are spell trigger items, so both the alchemist can use them.

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I love making back-stories for my characters. Not only do they offer the dm hooks for plots and story making, but they also really help me get into character and get some emotional investment into them. My favorite character had a good 3-5 days put into writing and detailing her history. The end result was only 5 pages or so, but it can be made much longer if I included every detail involved.

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Halflingtime wrote:

I like playing everyone's friend. This is best accomplished with a divine caster being the buffer or healer, or with a bard and some specialized wizards.

This is useful because I die often, no matter how optimized I am or carefully I play.
Being the berserk button in a party of otherwise "neutral, not-my-problem" kinda characters means that I get to be important despite my "crit-me" sign.

It's also led to hilarity and Kuririn/Krillin references... and Kenny, of course.

Oh, being the group berserk button is one of the greatest feelings in the world for me in PF. It's so cinematic when the group's got their back to the wall, and I drop a few buffs to turn the tides and let my parties righteous justice crash over whatever we're facing.

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I prefer characters that have something to contribute in all situations and support characters, and for this reason, I like bards and clerics the best. both are quite capable of doing well in combat if you build them right, and out of combat, there are plenty of things both characters can do. With some good role playing, you can get around the cleric's lack of skill points either through some clever uses of profession or just know how and who to talk to (for example, another member of your religion might be willing to help you getting past an obstacle if the request is reasonable without needing to jump through hoops with difficult skill checks, helping the sick and injured getting you some small favors, etc.)

I also like playing more alien, exotic characters. For this reason, I love playing the native outsider races or fairy races, like gnomes or gathlain. I like exploring their more foreign mindsets of these characters, and thinking about what kind of faults and virtues a creature who isn't human might have.

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I personally enjoy playing characters that operate in a team rather than those that operate as an individual. For this reason, I really enjoy playing support classes. I really hate it when people think the summoner is worthy of a ban, but won't care if someone plays a conjuration focused wizard, which, from most aspects, are mechanically more powerful than summoners. I feel it's because a lot of DMs are afraid giving PCs the ability to summon allies to their side for whatever reason. Summoners give immense amounts of role playing opportunities, and it irks me that a misaimed fear of giving players the ability to call for backup causes many people to stamp it out.

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I personally love the idea of a paladin of Desna. Desna's main foes are the evils that lie in the dark and sow fear and nightmare in people. A shining champion immune to such fearsome creatures would be useful to Desna's goal. I don't see any reason why such a character should be banned.

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The most overpowered class is the one you enjoy the most. the true way to win dnd is to walk away from the end of the game with fond memories and a story to tell. that being said... I've seen people all of the classes in equal measure and while I think some classes could use a boost in versatility (Fighters with a grit pool type thing and 2 more skill points would be awesome!), they are all capable of greatness.

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Well, feat qualification I feel is a better limiter on the class then making it incredibly MAD. I feel the MAD aspect harms role playing since there are very few ways to spread stats on a point buy budget and unless you are playing an assimar or human, you will really be hurting in the stat department since you probably lowered something with your racial penalty that is important to the class.

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I really don't get the insistence on making this a full BAB class. With all the boosts they get, plus the BAB boost from sacred weapons, there is no need to make them a full BAB class. sure, a d10 hit die would be nice, but that's what fervor is for. Do a swift action heal on yourself like the paladin does. with how hard you can spike defenses with swift action defense spells and sacred armor, an average of 1 hp per class level isn't that big of a deal. making fervor WIS based and giving more skill points would be a much better change.

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Joe M. wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
Some people are always going to optimize and min-max and get the most mileage out of whatever options they have available.

Yes, that's true. But what does it change? The question on the table is how far we optimizers will be able to run with that when playing a Warpriest.

Question for the Option C crowd: What do you make of the suggestion to drop the scaling damage altogether? (Basic boost to make less-martial weapons viable, leave it at that.) Let's call this the Non-Scaling Boost option. (That's for my own sake, it helps me to tag it with a name.)

Really, this issue could also be resolved by capping the scaling damage so it doesn't exceed the damage dice of the strongest martial weapon (2d6 I believe). Given the number of options available from the cleric spell list to give yourself boosts to static damage, the die size of a weapon begins to matter a lot less. I don't like the idea of completely dropping the damage boost, because some of us like the idea of playing a viable Desnan or Pharsaman cleric using their deity's favored weapons. Even with the boost, this would be a sub-optimal play style, but if the boost was there, it would still be perfectly viable.

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)


1. Which is easiest to use?
2. Which is the most balanced?
3. Which is the most fun?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

1) B would require a little more work, but not too much more, than A or C. A and C need the same amount.

2) This is probably the most controversial. While high crit is the most obvious sources of concern, I think most here have also been forgetting that reach weapons offer their own boons that make them worthy of consideration over a divinely boosted kukri. Area control in the form of a large threatened area and extra damage from more attacks of opportunity help even the gap here, while 2 handed weapons will benefit from higher boosts from feats like power attack as well as strength boosts. While I was originally a bit leery of how powerful this class feature would be on high crit weapons, I think that all forms of fighting offer their own boons, so C is the most balanced in my opinion. if all weapons were standardized, I think there would be little incentive warpriests to not just default to a reach weapon, and we run into the same problem as magi have: everyone using the exact same build with no variety.

3) Personally, I like the idea of weaker weapons being viable options because someone wants to fulfill a role playing concept. Option C allows a roleplayer who wants to use Desna's favored weapon a viable option, making them capable enough mechanically while still getting the flavor they want for role playing. Other weapon mentions go to Nethys followers being able to wield the magic god's weapon into war or abadar's crossbow. encouraging complete, universal standardization greatly reduces diversity, and as a result, makes the class less interesting and less fun, so for this, my vote also goes to C.

While changes to sacred weapon are being discussed, I would like to bring up the problem with thrown weapons still not being addressed. The benefit from sacred weapon in the case of a thrown ranged attack should cease AFTER the damage and attack rolls are resolved. Desna's warpriests should be allowed to sling their knives around without being incredibly penalized for it.

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Golo wrote:

With Warpriest’s other powers focusing around buffing swiftly and frequently I would love to see a majority of these blessings be changed away from also being a buffing action.

I really would like some part of this class be more active instead of a passive benefit or buffing.

Maybe I’m an action junkie but I would like to see the blessings allow you to do to special things when you attack.

Like maybe the minor Air blessing is that on a successful attack with your favored weapon you initiate a bull rush if your attack roll also surpasses their CMD. Using your Attack roll as you combat maneuver check. This action does not provoke an AoO. Greater Air, you do this in a cone or line effect.

The Earth Blessing could be a trip, Water a reposition or bullrush.

Minor Healing Blessing is that as a standard action you can make a melee or ranged attack with your favored weapon if successful an ally within 15 feet is healed an amount equal to one half of the damage dealt. Maybe the major blessing is the same but you can heal all allies in an aoe.

War Domain blessing as a full round action you can attack as though you possessed the whirlwind feat. Maybe greater is you can attack all foes in a line or cone effect with your weapon flying from your hand and then back again.

Fire you recite a prayer presenting your weapon and flames erupt from it in a 15ft cone that do 1d8 +1 per warpriest level.

I want them to be less domain like and more war like and more active.

I really think that this type of thing could make the blessings far more interesting and I wish they were a greater focus for the class.

I second this notion. This is a great idea, and adding a weak alignment or elemental effect is a pretty bland ability when we have sacred weapon

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One other thing I've noticed is that Fervor doesn't allow for casting weapon buffs, such as Instrument of Agony, as a swift action. It might not be that big a deal, but it would be nice to be able to cast these kinds of buffs as well as the more iconic Divine favor/power, Righteous Might, etc. This, I don't believe is as important as increasing the skill points or making Fervor a wis based ability, but it should be something to consider.

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+1 on needing more skill points. it's incredibly hard to do anything outside of combat with the meager 2 skill points per level that your average warpriest will be getting. it's troublesome for a paladin who actually cares about finding a peaceful solution to solving problems, and it's just as troublesome for warpriest.

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The problem with making MAD a class restrictions is that it becomes one more unnecessary barrier for it to overcome when compared to a cleric. A martial cleric does not need to worry about a charisma, so they need STR, CON, and WIS. They also have full spellcasting. The warpriest not only has fewer spells to overcome the wide stat spread, but also more stats to spread it's abilities across. Fervor should be based on wisdom; the power itself is useful, but it's not really that overpowering.