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I'm curious if others have dabbled with the new rules for creating, managing and "warring" with Armies - introduced in the AP?

My group is currently kicking off Part 5, War of the River Kings.

The players recruited a few specialized (faction specific) armies.
(Centaurs, Lizard-kin and Kobolds)

As well as a general Cavalry from their citizens.

The combat rules are fairly simple, although it was difficult to figure out the appropriate DC for most WAR actions.

Eventually was able to determine its just an opposed skill check.

So to make a morale action, the DC is the targets Morale bonus + 10.
Same for any other skill check, except combat (which simply uses AC)

Running combat was fairly simple using initiative order and 3 actions like PF2.
Damage is very simple to track, just remember to make Route checks as needed.

As an example of gameplay:

Our last battle, the parties "elite kobold archers" where fortified in their castle. They were attacked by (3) armies at once ... which technically meant the could not be attacked until the castle was breached.

Since it would have been a boring session, I decided to let (2) of the attacking armies use their ranged attacks ... to attempt to damage the castle.

The 3 attacking armies had a tough time. The bandits never succeeded at their checks to advance / since the kobolds stayed fortified. Eventually they fled.

The horde of giants used their ranged attacks against the castle for a total of 3 damage before their used all their ranged attacks and had to flee as well.

And the ranged attackers dropped "explosive barrels" (so their ranged attacks could justify targeting a structure) ... and managed to do 3 more points of damage before running out of ammo.

Meanwhile, every round, the defenders spent 2-3 actions to attack from range and stay fortified. Even with the cumulative -5 and -10 penalty for multiple attacks in same round, they managed to do a lot of damage.

So, I had to "ad lib" a bit to keep the story moving ... and let the enemies feel like a threat. If they had more lucky roles, they would have made it through the castle walls and quickly dispatched the archers.

But the experience did leave me wondering ... if anyone else has had success with the army rules ?

Here are a few suggestions;

First, we roll the EVENTs at the start of a kingdom month so players can focus some efforts to better resolve them.

Second, I also "pre load" a building into each settlement for the CIVIC phase ... saying its what their locals and/or advisors are asking for. This gives me a chance to help them make a viable kingdom. Plus its just a suggestion, so they can always build whatever they want.

Advice on skill usage for players;

(phases)
COMMERCE
- collect taxes (this can provide a +1 or +2 bonus to all ECONOMY checks for this and possibly next turn!)
- improve lifestyle (as above, but for any CULTURE checks ... which includes a lot of magic related checks)
... and if they do skip collecting taxes, they get a "free" DC:11 roll and if successful, can reduce Unrest by (1).

LEADERSHIP
- Celebrate Holiday (this can provide a +1 or +2 bonus to all LOYALTY checks for this and possibly next turn!)
- Focused Attention (the DC is 20 and never goes up. Players should be using this if nothing better to at least aid in resolving events)
- Prognostication (chance to choose which Event occurs and bonus to resolve events)
- Hire Adventurers (gives a chance/bonus to resolve events)

REGION
- Claim Hex (this might be obvious, but more hexes means more resource dice each turn but a higher DC)
- Establish Farmland (its the only way to counter consumption)
- Go Fishing (RAW; its the only way to earn FOOD commodities since farms merely reduce consumption)

CIVIC
- always be constructing (there is a limit on completed constructions per month, but no limit on buildings under construction and some take months to get enough resources.)

After running this AP a few times, there is definitely room for lower level or multiple parties.

For example, once my current group established their kingdom ... we did a side trek adventure with low level PCs to clear out some of the unexplored areas "at behest of the new rulers".

Later, we wanted to introduce a new player ... so we did another side trek where they had also been hired by the rulers to investigate a long lost crypt.

Basically, all the un-explored content could be used as small mini-adventures for lower level parties - without much conflict.

Alternatively, having the one group focus on kingdom building ... while they "hire" the second party to explore locations, even at same level, could be interesting for some groups.

As a bonus, the adventurers in group B could also fill leadership roles for the kingdom ... which provides further benefits.

If you had one group working the main story and another doing the side quests ... then collaborating when it comes time to do a kingdom turn, it could all work out.

Those are just some ideas ... with the right groups, it is definitely possible.

Hi all, I just wanted to offer an alternative perspective with the updated Kingmaker Adventure Path, based on my personal experiences so far.

STORY
We are about 70% through the updated AP content, enjoying ourselves and making it work w/o too much effort.

My group is currently at kingdom level 12 / party level 13.

What we learned;

XP
The XP was definitely a mess until the kingdom hit around level 6 or so ... then they easily had enough with events and such to keep the kingdom leveling alongside the players.

SKILLS and House rules
We have a few house rules in place - based on things I read in these forums.
1. non-trained skills add (level +0) but still "gate" access to some buildings.
2. skills every level (rather than 1/2) and players could still spend feats to unlock additional skills.
3. Capital (only) - we ignored the size limits on capital, so they were able to more quickly get farms up -- and so it was always expanding as the center of their kingdom.
4. Item bonuses to actions. To simplify this, we ignore location and instead limit it to a stack of 3 buildings. This results in a +3 max bonus until 9th, then +6 maximum until 15th were it increases to the max +9. This way, players are encouraged to build structures in ALL their settlements and not simply place everything in their capital while ignoring the rest.

With these options … the party tends to have a 40% success chance on untrained skill checks. And by stacking the building bonuses and those from other actions, they often double those chances for trained checks. If not, they find alternatives and/or use their fame to re-roll as needed.

FAME ... My players were sad it wasn't a cumulative total of all the fame their kingdom has earned. Instead it's more like “hero points” (for kingdoms). Regardless, the kingdom starts with (1) Fame each new kingdom turn and any left over at the end is "lost" (resets to 0). So encourage players to use it up every month.

FARMS ... were a big concern early on, but once they hit level 5 or so it was not as much a concern. they could then afford the 5 RP / consumption to avoid starving their citizens.

ARMIES ... in hindsight, it would have been interesting to introduce them earlier. But younger kingdoms often can't afford the consumption and other costs associated with fielding an army.

Kingdom TURNS ... it was a mess when we started, trying to understand the phases and order of operations. Adding armies only made it more confusing. But now (with help of automation) we complete a turn in about 10 minutes - rather than a couple hours.

When starting, it was very helpful to slow each phase down, so everyone understood what was happening and how their choices impact the kingdom.

Phases -
UPKEEP - start of the turn; income and expenses; leadership changes
COMMERCE - collect taxes, trade commodities, manage trade
LEADERSHIP - these actions have biggest impact on events
REGION - players always forget they can do (2 actions as 1) in Heartland hexes.
CIVIC - Besides "gated behind skills" ... the only limit is "1 constructed building per settlement". So we end up with lots in progress at once and track the resources spent each month until successfully constructed.
EVENTS - At the early levels, we did events every month. This added some flavor and earned them lots of bonus XP. If players lacked a specific skill to end an ongoing event, they usually solved it with another leadership action such as Focused Attention, Hiring Adventurers or skillful use of Magic. Or they just failed gloriously, endured the outcome and moved on ;-)

ACTION ECONOMY ... something that was not obvious initially, was the action limits per kingdom turn.

UPKEEP, COMMERCE (no limits)
LEADERSHIP (2 per PC, so 8 initially... 12 with a castle)
REGION (3 per turn, never changes)
CIVIC (1 construction per settlement, gives crazy at high level with dozen or so settlements)
ARMY actions (1 per kingdom army)
EVENTS (varies)
... so the only variable is the number of leadership actions per month. And these can impact all other phases.

TIP #1: CIVICs ... As a GM, between sessions ... to prepare for the next kingdom turn ... I go through the Settlements and add 1 or more buildings the townsfolk and/or advisors are requesting. This greatly helps speed game play up when dealing with many settlements. Players can still choose to build something else, but it helps keep things expanding. And it gives me a chance to suggest other buildings to improve their kingdom stats, where it might help.

TIP #2: LEADER actions ... Over time, action economy is very important with this step. I'd limit it to 8 actions initially and 12 with castle ... regardless of the number of PCs. Also, I tend to be flexible with things like hiring adventurers for things the players roleplay well, such as clearing a map hex for the PCs.

TIP #3: EVENTS ... My players enjoy these events as it adds color to each kingdom month. So I will often roll them up ahead of time and give them vague clues at the start of the month. This way the players can prepare for these events with specific leadership actions or perform other actions to help offset the potential impact of the pending events.

More CONTEXT
However, a few things to add more context that may differ from others' experience.

PF1e
We are also running this using the original pathfinder ruleset, not pf2, which has made things more challenging as a GM … but thankfully, it has no direct bearing on the kingdom side of things.

VTT … FGU
First, we are playing over a virtual table table using Fantasy Grounds Unity … which does help a lot with common tasks and provides the means to automate further (with extensions, see below).

AUTOMATION
Second, we are using an extension toolset I put together over the last year or so of running this adventure path.

With the toolset, we don’t have to track all the details in spreadsheets and swap in/out of context constantly. Instead it organizes our gameplay along the phases listed above (including the un-mentioned “army” phase) … and lets us focus on the story and playing the game itself.

For those interested, here is Link to the automation toolset created for Fantasy Grounds;
FGU Extension: Nation Builder

Is anyone using Fantasy Grounds Unity VTT to run the new Kingmaker AP? I've been working on an extension to automate gameplay;

https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/1180/view

It works equally well for any of the supported version (pf2, pf1 and DnD 5e) and saves a lot of the time spent managing the meta data.

My group has been using it (for last year or so) to run an updated pf1e version of the Kingmaker AP.

We just made it into book 5/6 -- so the armies are a key part of the gameplay for the near future. Working on a second extension to help handle the Army and War actions.

I noticed they are missing from the new AP and wanted to mimic how they function in the crpg.

Initially, PCs can teleport between Arcanist's Towers, which can be built at level 5 and only require (1 rank) trained in Magic. However, this perk is limited to PCs and other influential citizens.

So, we introduced the teleport circles at level 9, which require (2 ranks) Expert in Magic skill as well as a settlement of City size or larger. (just like in the crpg, where you can build towers anywhere but can only build the circles in cities or larger)

Here is what I came up with;

TELEPORT CIRCLE
LVL 9, Size 1
req: Magic (expert) and City or larger settlement.

Build DC: 26

Cost 24 RP, 4 stone, 2 luxury and 2 ore commodities.

Decided to have it modify (2) nation actions that currently have no modifiers.

Establish Trade Agreements -- since it could make long distance trade possible and profitable.

Deploy Army (magic) -- because its what teleport circles would be ideal for.

Finally, I added the same increase in item levels that a waterfront or magic shop might provide; as the expedient travel would make magic trade easier as well.

Thoughts on this ?
How would you adjust it, to fit your campaign?

It turns out, Vested also comes into play when trying to resolve Kingdom Events ...

If the leadership role associated to the Event is Vested, it grants the Kingdom a +1 bonus to attempt to resolve the event, which increases to +2 or +3 at higher levels.

Armies can be as low as level 1 (infantry) or level 3 (skirmishers) ... although (personally) I would require them to have at least a Barracks to recruit an army.

But feeding armies will be challenging at their lower kingdom level. Since at that point in the story they likely do not have an abundance of farmlands.

Consumption aside. There is nothing stopping them from make the leadership action to Recruit an army. They could even try to recruit the kobolds.

I'd even encourage it even, as its more likely to fail in interesting ways -- than cause any lasting damage to the storyline.

Plus, it would be a great way to let them earn some extra Kingdom XP

After running this AP for last 18+ months, I'd suggest against changing the number of actions they get. The action economy does matter.

Instead; I'd suggest you add the new player in one of the leadership positions. So they can feel some agency as well, but likely most of the cool ones were already taken. Then I would just encourage them to participate equally.

The group is limited to the default (8) actions LEADERSHIP actions per month. If they built a town hall or such, this increases to (12) per month. (this is based on assumed party of 4 and default 2 actions per month)

That only applies to the leadership actions - the upkeep, commerce phases have no limits.

Region phase is always just 3 actions. (unless they remember to use the Heartland rule to do 2 actions in the same hex)

Civic phase its simply (1) building attempt per settlement.

So having them share the pool of leadership actions would likely keep things more consistent over time.

Is it possible to get some clarity on what will actually be released with "part 2"?

For context, the only automation I am seeing with "part 1" seems to revolve around hex exploring (and the setup wizard); which do look cool, to be fair.

However, as I have run this campaign multiple times ... imho that is just small potatoes compared to the over head of managing the nation meta data, all the settlements, upgrades to every hex and that is without even mentioning ARMIES.

Sadly, none of the comments about "part 2" mention ANY of these things. Can anyone share details on WHAT is in the roadmap?

Will the completed product include any automation around kingdom management and/or tracking each kingdom turn?

How about support for Armies? Creating, upgrading and fighting with said armies?

the above dilema was solved when they introduce the idea of "Virtual Intelligences" (VI) ... which differ from AIs.

AIs just simulate a personality, allowing computer to make influence type checks (sense motive, bluff, diplomacy).

While VIs can actually operate the entire ship, switching different crew positions each round if needed.

But oddly, VIs also lack the social skills granted by AIs. But there is nothing stopping you from putting both upgrades on the same ship.

I heard there were lots of "fixes" made to Dead Suns, for the re-printed hard cover release. But I already own the original series :( must I repurchase to get the updates? (since there appears to be no Errata)

The Swarm Fleet Fury ... is listed as having a Light Torpedo Launcher and the story implies it only has 5 shots then has to flee combat.

This seems incorrect ... as the light torpedo launcher listed in CRB does not have "Limited Fire 5" ... so in theory does not run out of ammo.

Which is correct? was the CRB wrong and light torpedo launcher do have the "limited fire 5" ? or was it simply an over-sight in this AP? or maybe its a unique version of the launcher weapon?

Long time reader, first time poster - I had a question about the hanger in Section J of the AP. Many parts of this section mention an element of time cost, such as 'each attempt takes about 10 minutes'.

If the PCs don't trip the alarm in J1 the patrolling robots might come about. But if they do and the bots are scrapped are there any other repercussions to this mounting time? Is it simply to make the players feel the pressure as the Swarm get closer?

A few failed checks can quickly add up to half an hour so I wasn't sure if anything else should be going on. Thanks in advance!

Personally, I would suggest a few changes after running it (last night, ran my group through) ...

As for timing, ignore all of the quoted "x minutes" ... first, players need to get the power back on ... and start the refueling.

However long that takes, just count the rounds and make them feel as if a sense of urgency (as in ... the swarm is only minutes behind them, as they moved through the city to the space port)

then, soon as they have the fueling started ... kick off the final event.

Then I started a "10 round" count down timer ... and each round, moved the survivors towards the ship ... 3 rounds to load the cargo ... and tracking were all players were ... and mentally moved the swarm towards them ... but round 2 they were attacked

meanwhile, each round I had the engineer make a ENG check ... to keep the fuel lines manually connected ... and if he failed DC:20, I rolled some d4 non-lethal cold damage ... if he failed by 5 or more, 2d4 ... and another check at DC:15 or this round doesnt count towards the (10) needed to fuel the vessel.

this kept them busy, fighting off the "endless" stream of swarm ... and shock/awe as the beasties used acid to destroy every door in a few attacks ...

made for great tension and game play.

It also helped that at this point, they had not had an 8 hour rest since they left Fort Gallant -- so they were all out of Stamina, Resolve and stimpaks before they blasted off the planet.

Is there any rules reference for this point of view?

The CRB just mentions non-lethal damage on its own section, with no examples of how its handled or healed. and majority of players in my campaign are trying to KO rather than kill enemies ...

Because of this lack of clear rules, there have been arguments because of no clearly defined rules in SF and players being used to PF1 rule sets.

Is it the same as PF1? cant seem to find it in the CRB

Healing Nonlethal Damage: You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

just apply a weapon fusion that makes the needler do non-lethal damage and its solves ... at this point, its no longer relevant since the Biohacker class now has the abilities you describe here. And can deliver injections without causing any damage as a class feature, etc.

thanks all for the interesting things to consider while running this AP ... as GM, im the only one of my group with actual military background

And I feel the need for a solid grounding in logic and tactics ... so I had to take upon myself to draw up actual maps the region from the start

so the players being sent out on their first mission can understand the lay of the land ... and encouraged them to try resisting the cold without armor protection at first, so they get a feel for it

as for the rank structure, the players squad included;
an outlaw who enlisted to get a pardon
a mercenary grunt who has survivor guilt
a phentomite scout/mechanic the excels at tracking
and lastly, a wild warden technomancer "plant creature"

so ... we role played up their "2 weeks of basic training" prior to the start of the story ... and each was provided a "score" (based on arbitrary things I added up, but players dont know that)

And the mercenary scored highest ... and was promoted to Squad Leader ... aka PRIVATE FIRST CLASS ... enlisted rank 2

and the other (2) were close behind in points and promoted to PRIVATE (each) ... enlisted rank 1 ... and each given a few special items for their class role (which works out best anyhow, since they are new to star finder and the real life youngest of the group)

finally, the "convict" was singled out as "beneath" them on rank structure ... rank 0 ... with no chance for promotion, just a full pardon ... and other team members were warned to "watch out that he doesnt turn on you or try to run off" (which fits his Lawful Evil alignment very well)

so far, has made for some interesting inter-party gossip ... and added to the realism and "internal conflict" for the players

I'm working on creating maps / handouts for the players before they head off on their overnight Patrol ... and another for the Long Slog

thinking of letting them move across the map in (1 hour) increments or something relative ... so they can choose to stick to the roads (reduced to 75% movement due to clogged roads) or risk following their wild warden or scouts advice, and venturing off the roads on trails to try and get better speed and avoid the random swarm patrols harassing those on the road ways

.. all the while doing cold weather checks each hour ... survival checks to avoid loosing their way in the blizzard(s) ... and trying to manage their fatigue before they are all exhausted.

odd - mine must have been a misprint as it did not include any of the large creatures - but had a duplicate page for the resort NPCs :/

Still possible to request a replacement on the SF CRB?

We're playing through the Kingmaker series of adventures and were looking for ways to track our progress over time. And to simplify the math involved with managing a kingdom.

NOTE: Rather than use the stock kingmaker rules, we are using the updated Ultimate Campaign rules.
These tools are all available on the internet for free - but to use them, you would need to host it locally or on the cloud somewhere.

I have setup a "hosted" version of each on the cloud so you can see easily how it works.

Thought I'd share this info in case others find it useful as well.

-- Kingdom HEX Map --
Rob's map tool was perfect for this - and already includes base maps of the Green belt. This made it easy to mark the cleared hexes and track anything of interest.

You can

• tap/click a hex to remove it to reveal the map underneath
• drag icons onto the map from the panel on the left
• move around the pawn icon to represent the current party location
• make other customization's from the drop-down menu.

My example S3 hosted - Kingmaker Map URL

original source

-- Kingdom manager --
Rob already some great work on this tool - but I found it incomplete and so made these changes;

• now displays/calculates the attributes for each Settlement.
• removed the requirement of farms <= roads (nothing in rules say you HAVE to have roads).
• Also added/updated the list of improvements to account for the updates Kingdom Building rules in Pathfinder Ultimate Campaign. (from Paizo site)
• working on adding Government types (currently has no impact)
  

My example S3 hosted - Kingdom Manager URL

original source

NOTE
I'm happy to share the hosted versions of these apps ... but keep in mind it costs $ based on usage in AWS - so I can't guarantee that I'll be hosting it forever. But so long as its not abused, I'll keep hosting it for all to use.

Credits:
Rob Rendell started all of this work. He gets all the credit. I just updated the resources a bit to fit our needs.