Needler and Nonlethal Damage


General Discussion


Core book says that needlers are often used for delivering medicine. Under the medicines section, we learn that sedatives inflict 1d4 nonlethal damage, and are often injected via needler to subdue foes without killing them.

The problem is: a needler already deals 1d4 lethal piercing damage. How can it plausibly be used for healing or subdual? At 150 creds per dose of tier 1 drugs, that seems like a pretty narrow benefit.


lodger wrote:


Core book says that needlers are often used for delivering medicine. Under the medicines section, we learn that sedatives inflict 1d4 nonlethal damage, and are often injected via needler to subdue foes without killing them.

The problem is: a needler already deals 1d4 lethal piercing damage. How can it plausibly be used for healing or subdual? At 150 creds per dose of tier 1 drugs, that seems like a pretty narrow benefit.

If you use a needler pistol with a dose of sedative, your attack does 1d4 (lethal) piercing plus 1d4 nonlethal for the sedative. It's not the dart that's doing nonlethal damage, it's the sedative. It's essentially a poison that takes effect after the dart's damage.


That's the most logical sense of the rules as written, but if you're trying to inflict nonlethal damage, a 1:1 ratio of lethal/nonlethal seems like an awfully risky way to do that. And it seems like an almost insanely counterproductive means of delivering healing, which is the needler's other in-lore usage.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

As far as I can tell from reading it, the 1d4 nonlethal is exclusive to the sedative, if you were to use the needler to fire a serum of healing you wouldn't take 1d4 nonletthal, you'd heal the amount the serum provides minus the 1d4 from the actual needle round. If I've misunderstood people are welcome to correct me but this seems to me to be the case.


No, that seems to be the mechanic. I just thought either in-lore usage of the needler is not encouraged by the actual rules, in which the 1d4 piercing tends to work against the goal of nonlethal subdual or distance healing.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Well if I recall correctly then all damage is the same until you're actually putting someone at 0 so having an extra d4 lethal damage go off before the nonlethal is actually a boon (unless that first d4 kills the guy anyway of course) though it certainly doesn't seem too narratively consistent that the two pools are mixed (you could fill a guy with bullet holes but as long as you just punch him for the last attack he's just unconscious and not bleeding to death for example). It is counter-intuitive for the healing to do damage but it makes some sense that you're being stabbed by a needle at relatively high speeds which would certainly hurt a bit. It seems like an option that'll be more viable when you have higher health pools and access to better healing serums or if you're low on HP but you have stamina so you don't take any permanent HP damage.


The other major use of the Needler is delivering poisons, where the 1d4 makes a bit more sense. And of course once you get above the Mk 1 Healing Serum the 1d4 damage starts meaning less and less.


It seems silly that it would deal lethal damage when injecting a healing potion though. So instead of healing it can do more harm?

The venture captain in my area has said until the company says differently, the damage is not dealt if there is a healing potion in the dart.


I mean RAW you can't even actually load a Healing Serum into a Needler dart, since it's not on the list of things you can, it's just one of those things that is just so obvious to do that people will do it anyways.


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"Why are you shooting your needler at me!?"
**"The needles will inject healing serum."
"I'm not wounded!"
**"You will be when the needles hit."


Early melee characters should use a needle pistol to deliver analgesic mk 1. Target is flat footed, -2 attack, can't make AoOs, NO SAVE. Then move to melee range, and not take an AoO, nor penalty to attack and AC like a charge would do.


I think an easy fix for this would be introduction of a different kind of dart.
You have the current dart "does (whatever it was) damage" then have "medical dart" or some such. That does no damage and purely injects only.

That would be the best way to solve the main problem with the neelders I think..

-----
as a side note. I do hope Nonlethal works on more things in general now. Purely because of what is doing it... like the pulse casters are the kind that shoot energy blasts that hit hard and knock people around and KO' them in the movies. Those ones could bust through solid things or be lethal if they kept shooting. It'd be neat if that was an option in this..
Like do half damage with nonlethal to effect something immune to nonlethal.


AeonsShadow wrote:
The venture captain in my area has said until the company says differently, the damage is not dealt if there is a healing potion in the dart.

That's really not something they're allowed to do

Scarab Sages

Shinigami02 wrote:
I mean RAW you can't even actually load a Healing Serum into a Needler dart, since it's not on the list of things you can, it's just one of those things that is just so obvious to do that people will do it anyways.

correction.. please read "dart" in ammo section.

DARTS
These light metal shafts each have a pointed tip and a reservoir to hold toxins or other appropriate substances that are typically liquid or viscous. While most combatants rely on darts to deliver toxins to enemies, particularly desperate or overworked field medics sometimes employ darts to conveniently deliver antitoxins, healing serums, and other beneficial drugs across a crowded battlefield. In these cases, medics often practice to improve their aim to ensure that this strategy is effective when employed.

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