Zombre's page

Any advice on how to kill a paladin that can cast Sanctuary on himself as a swift and the DC increases with his level and he also has a Holy Avenger and a Griffon mount?

I've been thinking about this, since I just got my air elemental familiar. It looks like I can buy it armor, but since it's whirlwind effect is a transformation into an elemental shape, it is going to lose the effect of the armor the moment it transforms.

Flame elementals are easy, just buy red dragon hide armor. The armor is immune to fire.

Does "all of your gear" also include your pack mule and all of the gear it's carrying?

If you have 2 bison attached to your light wagon, does your animals and wagon get melded into your body as well?

Zombre wrote:

the only complaint was the bottle neck with all the huge creatures engaged in melee blocking the hallway. Nothing specific to the Construct, nor did the construct take up any extra time.

Do you believe anyone had less fun because of what you did?

If so, what would be your proposed solution?

My proposed solution is to build a Large Golem using the RAW for Constructing the golem. Then I will have the golem be at the end of the line with my PC behind it and allow everyone to go in front when faced with a hallway in the future.

First, I'm sorry fro bring this here.

Secondly, I'm a GM of 34 years experience.

I have a player, that rather than play his characters, builds characters that create NPCS. I don't persay have a problem with that but, it is getting excessive,takes more time, throws off the CR rating of the campaign and likewise. That in itself isn't the issue, last week, his construct and Eidolon blocked a hallway and essentially no other player could play.

This is actually a little inaccurate. Anvil forgot to mention that he was playing a large creature as well and there was a paladin riding on a large griffon engaged with 3 large undead cyclopes just outside of the tunnel. I have provided a screenshot below for clarification. But all of those large creatures were in the little area just outside of the hallway.

Screenshot of the map

In my mind I've never been an overbearing GM. I let the player build his construct on his time, no rolls, no GM supervision. Well he switched between the regular rules and the alternative as it suited him to mitigate cost creation. I addressed that and we worked thru it satisfactorily.

House rules have been all NPCs Max is equal to the Player Character -1 level no exceptions, no feats, no magical items, nothing changes that. This is an effort to get players to play characters and not NPCs

The player is dissatisfied with that and seeks to buck the system and believes the forum will validate his opinion. I said I would ask so I am.

So this statement also is a little inaccurate. I had coordinated with the GM who actually ran the game last night.

The regular rules under constructing an animated object, said cost varies based on object's CR, but I found it difficult to find the objects CR. So instead I went with the alternative rules also from Paizo products, which I thought were a little more clearer on the price.
This is the rules for Creating an Animated Object under the Alternative Rules section:
CL varies (equal to the animated object’s HD); Price varies (cost of object + [(animated object’s HD + CP) × 1,000])
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Feats Craft Construct; Spells animate objects, permanency; Skill optional (determined by object being created; crafting the object reduces its cost); Cost 1/2 price

I may have miscalculated what it meant by the cost of object. I had assumed that it was the cost of the object that I was animating. So for this I crafted a Huge Adamantine Chainmail armor that I planned to use to animate and thought the cost to craft that is used as the object to animate. After the game, however, Anvil brought it to my attention that the cost of the object was supposed to be from the actual NPC listing of a Huge Animated Object at 12,500 gp. I conceded to that point and admitted to my mistake. So since that Construct is not legal by the house rules I said I would create a Golem using the Golem rules and swap it out. The Construct was only targeted once during that game, so changing it out for a large golem would make the construct only large size and not have much impact.

I said he could feel free to disregard the character level -1 on NPCs but I'd revert to RAW which says all final modified DCs are determined by the GM. That he could expect at the onset of every planned battle I would then include creatures or spellcrafters who could control various NPCs (not targeting the specific player).

There are very specific rules for crafting Constructs. They are as follows:

I don't see what the point of Paizo spending the time making a book, and then me as a player, buying that book, if I am not allowed to use the Rules As Written in the book. Also, the other GM was ok with this as long as I follow the rules in the book and the construct's final construction cost could not exceed 20,000 gp using the Craft Construct feat.

He insists that I am not following RAW or the spirit of the game. I have more players to worry about than just him but, wanted to be as fair and impartial as possible. I am only human and have therefore been wrong before.

He also failed mention that he was a player in last night's game and the only complaint was the bottle neck with all the huge creatures engaged in melee blocking the hallway. Nothing specific to the Construct, nor did the construct take up any extra time. He just moved, hit and rolled for damage.

Anvil also forgot to mention that in addition to playing a large character, he also had a large tiger all of which were in that little area where other large creatures were engaged with large enemies.

Oh god yes. And you know the worst part? Paizo managed to f@$* up both trample and overrun even worse than what 3.5 had! The 3.5 description of trample didn't reference overrun at all, which is way better. Overrun was also made worse, because due to a comma added after "standard action", the sentence can be condensed to "standard action taken as part of a charge", which simply doesn't make any sense rule-wise. 3.5 also had a "(In general, you cannot take a standard action during a move; this is an exception.)" clarification that was removed for the CRB.

I actually see zero reason to reference overrun in the first place - basically, as written, the only thing that trample (in PF) takes from overrun is that stuff that explicitly helps against overrun would also help against trample (and stuff triggering on overrun also trigger on trample). Do such things even exist?

In case anyone wants too confer them, here're the 3.5 descriptions:
** spoiler omitted **...

I agree, the 3.5 description of Trample was way clearer, they should have just kept it as is.

Philippe Lam wrote:

Anvil Mithrashield wrote:

My issue with this is not can you get to the other side, my issue is what mitigation is available for a character on the damage? Does everyone need to play a character with evasion to not take damage from this? I'm the GM in my campaign - not the player - seems unbalanced.

Special Attacks trample (2d8+18, DC 29) for example

It's like every effect allowing a save for half, comparison with a Fireball is apt. The two effects need evasion to potentially take nothing, or take an AoO. The DC is difficult to reach sometimes, but the damage is not always backbreaking.

I know I am the final say in my game but, I'd feel better if there was paizo text on this subject... on another it says "successful" which again implies there is a chance to not be successful...

Fireball has spell resistance and a more finite number of uses per day.

Not every creature has spell resistance. Most do not, just like most do not have evasion, but can get it as a feat.

A few of us have already pointed out in the RAW that says Trample works like Overrun without a check needed. The Trample can be unsuccessful as written in the description if the targets succeed in their reflex roll(s), if the smaller creature(s) were successful, the creature(s) will still take half damage from the larger creature, that is one size category or larger, plowing through the space the smaller creature occupies. A medium creature occupies a 5 foot square. One size category larger is a creature that occupies a 10 foot by 10 foot space, and one size category larger than that is a creature that occupies a 15 x 15 foot area. Trample only works when the target is one size or more smaller than the creature with Trample. Overrun works against creatures up to one size category larger than the creature attempting an Overrun. When a equal in size or smaller creature is trying to overrun another creature equal in size or larger, it is easy for it to move out of the way to avoid the overrun, so they have the option to do that. When the creature that is equal or larger to the creature attempting to overrun it stands its ground, that is when the creature trying to preform the Overrun has to make a CMB check.

Buffalo/Bison/Auroch are large creatures with trample, when they rush a medium size creature or smaller they will do damage as the creature with Trample has a 10 x 10 square or larger moves through the medium sized creature's 5 foot square.

On a side note. If you read "Overrun" it says as part of a "Charge" you can overrun an opponent. I don't think anyone needs clarification on what Overrun means there... you simple get to the next square - easy enough.

But attacking during a charge requires an attack action.

The way I read trample is you don't need to roll a CMB to overrun your target but, that says NOTHING about damage and an attack.

In my mind Trample is the 2nd part of a Charge whole round action which if you choose to attack and you hit the creature does slam + str×1.5.

“This works just like the overrun combat maneuver, but the trampling creature does not need to make a check, it merely has to move over opponents in its path.”

A question we had a few games ago is can the trampling creature do a double move or just a single move as part of a trample?

It says it works like overrun with the key differences I pointed out. Overrun allows you to do a single move or a charge attack. The charge let's you move up to double your movement to attack a target, but there are restrictions.

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.

From <https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/Combat/#Charge

Trample (Ex)

As a full-round action, a creature with the trample ability can attempt to overrun any creature that is at least one size category Smaller than itself. This works just like the overrun combat maneuver, but the trampling creature does not need to make a check, it merely has to move over opponents in its path. Targets of a trample take an amount of damage equal to the trampling creature’s slam damage + 1-1/2 times its Str modifier. Targets of a trample can make an attack of opportunity, but at a –4 penalty. If targets forgo an attack of opportunity, they can attempt to avoid the trampling creature and receive a Reflex save to take half damage. The save DC against a creature’s trample attack is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s Str modifier (the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). A trampling creature can only deal trampling damage to each target once per round, no matter how many times its movement takes it over a target creature.

"Attempt" to me says chance of failure. Is there one? If so what is the chance (an attack roll)?

Attempt in this case is referring to the creature who has to make the save.

In this part of the description of the special attack Trample it says the following:
Targets of a trample take an amount of damage equal to the trampling creature’s slam damage + 1-1/2 times its Str modifier. Targets of a trample can make an attack of opportunity, but at a –4 penalty. If targets forgo an attack of opportunity, they can attempt to avoid the trampling creature and receive a Reflex save to take half damage.

The last sentence says: If targets forgo an attack of opportunity, they can attempt to avoid the trampling creature and receive a Reflex save to take half damage.

The bold section highlights the part of what the "Attempt" is referring to. Also, unlike overrun, the targets of trample have to be at least one size category smaller than the creature Attempting to Trample them. Because of this, they cannot merely allow the creature with Trample, that is at least one size category or larger to pass through their square unharmed. The smaller targeted creatures have to make a reflex save to jump out of their way and take half damage upon a success without the feat evasion or similar ability.

To better understand how Trample works lets break up the wording a little and read through it.

First part As a full-round action, a creature with the trample ability can attempt to overrun any creature that is at least one size category Smaller than itself. This works just like the overrun combat maneuver, but the trampling creature does not need to make a check, it merely has to move over opponents in its path.

The first part says that it works like the overrun, but the trampling creature does not need to make a check.

Here is what at Overrun says:

Overrun
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.

When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target’s space. If your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target’s space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has.

Right off the bat we can see how the special attack Trample is upgraded from Overrun. Overrun is a standard action that is taken during your move or as part of a charge. That still leaves the character making the Overrun action to make another maneuver, unless it is making a Charge. Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move. Also, overrun only allows you to overrun a target (singular as in one) and that target: You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. Trample can target multiple creatures, but A trampling creature can only deal trampling damage to each target once per round, no matter how many times its movement takes it over a target creature.

So Overrun allows you to overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you and initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

Also, a key point of difference that has been explicitly overruled by the trample ability is this part of overrun: When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target’s space. If your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target’s space and the target is knocked prone.] This part right here is addressed in the Trample ability: This works just like the overrun combat maneuver, but the trampling creature does not need to make a check, it merely has to move over opponents in its path. Therefore, no roll is needed by the creature that is making the Trample Special attack. Trample does not allow the target that is one size category smaller than the Creature with Trample to avoid it without making a reflex roll to get out of the way.

Everything is written in the Special Attack under Trample which is formatted on creatures as
Format: trample (2d6+9, DC 20); Location: Special Attacks

I hope this helps to clear some things up.

Edited to close a bold tag.