Zedorland's page

I also have concerns about where the alchemist is right now, but as has been pointed out earlier (and officially confirmed) alchemist's are in the highest change space in the playtest, as their core mechanics are based on a new game system that is still very much under construction.

Effectively, the alchemist is a building being built on top of a construction site. Yeah, it's gonna look wobbly for a bit. But that's no reason to be lashing out at people. In fact, it is a great reason to provide sound, rational feedback that the people that love this game at least as much as we do can use to refine the final product.

So yes, I am inclined to agree that alchemist's have some issues with the power of their abilities, especially when moderated by the number of times per day they can use those abilities. I think there are some very interesting ideas in this thread, and would love to see what else the community can come up with. But goodness me, let's put on our sensible adult hat and be civil about it.

Zedorland

JOLLY COOPERATION!

I hope there is a religious order of sol, or similar, to allow all the praising of the sun i intend to do.

+1 for the vigilante.

Avoid the secrecy aspect, and just play up the dual nature of a warlord ruler. A magnanimous and righteous ruler to his people, a creature of nightmare and terror on the battlefield.

Have your horned battle helmet sit beside you on a pedestal while you adjudicate fairly the problems of your people, a grim reminder of the force of nature you become when pushed too far.

EDIT: The Faceless Enforcer might be useful in achieving this.

My pfs paladin always strives to be the best he can be, and set an example for others. He is tolerant and patient of others failures, and will always take the time to help someone who tries to do right by others.

My favorite paladin in literature is Michael Carpenter from the dresden books by Jim Butcher. If you have the time to read them, they are a great guide to a lawful good paladin rolling with a not so lawful, not as good wizard.

I'm curious to see how the feat measures up, myself. I wrote it because it seemed like a good idea... but I'd love to see how good it is out in the wild. ^_^

Well awesome job! This kind of feat is great, it allows for much more multi classing and build variety.

I quite like a few levels of a martial class, and go tag team with your phantom. Unlike the summoner, who has summon monster SLA to keep up the offense, the spiritualist relies on either bad touch or melee/archery. A couple of levels fighter will give you heavy Armour, more choices of weapon, and enough feats to be immediately capable of most weapon styles.

Alternatively, the phantom can deliver touch spells from other classes, so use it like a ghostly magus. 1 level spiritualist + Phantom Ally, then the rest in Draconic Sorcerer with empowered shocking grasps. All the fun of touch spells, none of the danger.

Comes back, shaken and scarred. All it's friends cluster round to offer aid.

"what happened buddy?"
"Humanoids. Violent, angry humanoids."
"They never summon us for tea, it's always for beating things to death."

Maybe this year of pathfinder society is the elemental planes getting their own back for years of abuse at the hands of summoners?

Suddenly, an impact rocks across Silass as an arrow rebounds off the back of his scaled head. He whirls about, bringing his pick flying over his shoulder, only for it to embed itself into the cultist next to him, sticking firmly.

"Good shot Iddo!"interjects Korbin "I find such practises greatly help me relax as well!"

Pick: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (17) + 9 = 261d6 + 11 ⇒ (6) + 11 = 17

"Oh, ummmmm...., thank you Rasamoro, for umm very enthusiastically clearing a way through the streets. Maybe don't yell at the.... never mind. Sorry Ma'am. Erm, okay. So, ummm. We were told you were having some trouble with your business. We kind of specialise in problem solving. Just like Rasamaro specialises in removing obstacles. Like that man he just shoved. Oh, um he doesn't look too happy about that."

Silass sags out of his rage, and rushes to Korbin’s side, clutching the bird to his chest as a heaving, wracking wail escapes his lips. He rifles around in a pocket for a moment, and pulls out a wand, and begins pathetically waving it about to conjure some sort of succour for his wounded friend. He gradually realises this is a futile exercise, and looks around the room for help.

He notices that Iddo is recovered from his grievous wounds, and rushes over, pulling Iddo to his feet and shoving the wounded bird and the wand into his arms, silently begging him to do something to bring back his fallen master.

Wand of cure light wounds for Silass and Korbin (and anyone else who needs it)

He is specifically noted to be using a "swashbuckling" style, that Entreri initially regards as flamboyant and useless, and eventually as flamboyant and dangerous.

I would say swashbuckler/rogue.

I think the real key for playing any of the cast of the 3e Greenwood/Salvatore characters is just being a way higher level than most of the rest of the world. Most of the core cast is well above those around them, and will be very hard to imitate at lower levels.

Perhaps the easiest way to fond this kind of information is to use Archive of Nethys, specifically the search feature. You can search the feat you are hunting, tick the "Class" box, and return all classes (and archetypes) that would give you that feat. Search also for feat types (combat, teamwork, metamagic etc).

Additionally, steadfast personality protects from none of the following (some of these will not affect a halfling, but i got tired of adding new filters):

Spell like abilities:
Innumerable auras, areas, unique abilities and non mind affecting abiltiies

Hexes:
Slumber
Evil eye
misfortune

Spells:
Analyze Dweomer
Banishment
Bestow Curse
Bleed
Chill Metal
Chill Touch
Command Plants
Command Undead
Control Plants
Control Undead
Death Knell
Dimension Door
Discern Lies
Dismissal
Halt Undead
Harm
Heat Metal
Imprisonment
Inflict Light Wounds
Inflict Critical Wounds
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass
Inflict Moderate Wounds
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass
Inflict Serious Wounds
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass
Magic Jar
Magic Mouth
Plane Shift
Sanctuary
Seeming
Sequester
Shatter
Delay Pain
Slow
Aboleth's Lung
Teleport
Teleport, Greater
Undetectable Alignment
Veil
Baleful Polymorph
Mark of Blood
Cast Out
Crafter's Curse
Ghostbane Dirge
Ghostbane Dirge, Mass
Jester's Jaunt
Nature's Exile
Oracle's Burden
Sculpt Corpse
True Form
Unwilling Shield
Anticipate Peril
Curse, Major
Kalistocrat's Nightmare
Disfiguring Touch
Forced Quiet
Ice Crystal Teleport
Imbue with Aura
Interplanetary Teleport
Mad Hallucination
Marionette Possession
Share Memory
Utter Contempt
Bite the Hand
Bite the Hand, Mass
Eldritch Conduit
False Future
Hostile Juxtaposition
Hostile Juxtaposition, Greater
Hostile Levitation
Negative Reaction
Summoner Conduit
Twisted Space
Parasitic Soul
Soul Transfer
Black Spot
Malediction
Severed Fate
Unravel Destiny
Black Mark
Old Salt's Curse
Veil Of Heaven
Wind Blades
Undine's Curse
Shadow Anchor
Project Weakness
Detect Relations
Telepathic Censure
Bleed Glory
Mythic Severance
Steal Power
Share Skin, Greater
Carrion Compass
Undeath Inversion
Early Judgment
Misdirection
Spell Scourge
Touch Of Bloodletting
Tracking Mark
Unwelcome Halo
Mathematical Curse
Bestow Curse, Greater
Sculpt Sound
Shadow Walk
Curse Of Burning Sleep
Dimensional Bounce
Hex Vulnerability
Mark Of Obvious Ethics
Spellcrash, Lesser
Spellcrash, Greater
Spellcrash
Isolate
Spellsteal
Twisted Futures
Disrupt Link
Empathy Conduit
Alter Summoned Monster
Body Double
Calm Spirit
Entrap Spirit
Ethereal Envelopment
Mind Thrust II
Mind Thrust III
Mind Thrust IV
Mind Thrust V
Mind Thrust VI
Possession
Possession, Greater
Purge Spirit
Riding Possession
Respectful Quiet
Quell Energy
Pesh Vigor
Secret Sign
Curse Of Keeping
Shadowmind
Mydriatic Spontaneity
Mydriatic Spontaneity, Mass
Baleful Shadow Transmutation
Masochistic Shadow
Shadow Trap
Shadowform
Umbral Infusion
Umbral Infusion, Mass
Build Trust
Foster Hatred
Conditional Curse
Deceitful Veneer
Illusion Of Treachery
Illusion Of Treachery, Greater
Open Book
Red Hand Of The Killer
They Know
Treacherous Teleport
Phasic Challenge
Spellcurse
Alaznist's Jinx
Flexile Curse
False Vision, Greater
Itching Curse

"Where did the actors all go? This is incredibly unprofessional. Have they never heard that "The Show Must Go On"? Silass, remind me to demand a refund when this is all over. No hurry up, lets take the opportunity to look around while everyone is distracted by NOT PERFORMING AN OPERA!"

Lord Korbin will take a quick fly around the area to see if there is anything going on that he should be wary of.

Perception: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (6) + 9 = 15

"Right then, where to everyone? I haven't the foggiest where one would stash a missing pathfinder in a place like this. Mr Ryota, you look like you've disposed of a body or two in your time, what would you suggest?"

Saethori wrote:

chaoseffect wrote:

Barbarian build focused around DR. Invulnerable Rager + Improved Stalwart + Dragon Totem (if you don't mind losing Pounce from Beast) = a max of DR 26 /-. You get hit but it just doesn't matter. It's pretty fun.

The listed combination provides only DR 20/-, not 26. Neither Dragon Totem nor any of the powers that bear it as a prerequisite give DR.

I meant the Dragon Totem line. The second one gives +2 DR for each Dragon Totem feat you have as well. With the three feats you get +6 DR, a limited Flight per day, and an good energy resit. It's not too bad.

The Dragon totem line has been FAQ'ed or Errata'ed (ill dig around to find it) to clarify that the "DR" was meant to say "energy resistance".

EDIT: Dragon Totem Errata

Also, as an aside, the invulnerable rager barbarian does not qulify for extra damage reduction rage power.

Extra rage power FAQ

As blood begins to flow more obviously from the wounded, Korbin changes his tune.

”Erm, right yes. Zombies. Actual Zombies…….Well, never to fear! I, Lord Korbin, shall direct us all to victory. Yes. Iddo, inspiring stuff, continue doing that. Jacinth, quite right, that particular zombie is definitely the one to target. Do you hear that Silass? That one there. No, left. Other left. Good lord you are dense. The same one you just failed to stab. Oh, and stob stabbing you imbecile. Wide, cutting strokes. Like hacking through the jungle. Yes. Better.”

Silass will continue to try and kill the zombie in front of him, now with slashing damage!

Dagger: 20 + 9 = 291d4 + 6 ⇒ (4) + 6 = 10

RaizielDragon wrote:

"Prone" and other status effects are abstract notions that work as labels for mechanical effects in the game, but that doesn't mean you have to be tied down to thinking of it only as literally "being on the ground" just because that is the definition of "being prone".

Uh... No. And the same goes for "up" and "down".

Your argument is based on the fact the game uses english words as game terms with more specific meanings than real world.
Which is great. But that doesn't mean that one can ignore the real meaning of all english words in the book,
it means that one should be aware of how the rules use that word for any evidence of a discrepancy between game term/english.
You haven't done that, you're just lazily trying to justify what is convenient for you.

The game glossary actually defines "Prone" as a game term, not just standard English definition: "The character is lying on the ground."
Paizo literally could not have made it more clear that they intend/expect Prone to correlate to "lying on the ground".
So yeah, if you want to contradict game rules in favor of what sounds good in your head, great,
just don't act like you're justified by the rules rather than making stuff up in your head.

Tell you what. We will continue having fun in this little thread, considering the silly things one can do when lying on the ground, and you can toddle along somewhere else and play fun police there.

Everyone, I think, is aware of the sheer ridiculousness of this feat. We are enjoying trying to make the outrageous concept function mechanically.

So shoo. Go bother some other thread.

For bonus fun, take Combat meditation to actually nap mid combat.

I quite like combining fast crawl/rogue crawl with step up.

He's getting away! Roll after him!

So, i recently came across this feat mentioned in the songbird of doom thread:

Intrepid Rescuer

So far as i can tell, this lets someone lying down on the job get free attacks of opportunity against anyone that tries to take a swing at them (applying the good old "you are your own ally" logic).

When combined with Monkey Style, you can function with no penalty while prone, kip up as a swift action (when your acrobatics is good enough) move, drop to prone, attack with no penalty, and get free AoOs whenever your opponent tries to attack back.

A human level 1 unarmed fighter (or MoMS Monk) could have money style, combat reflexes and Intrepid Rescuer ready to go, and start lying around the battlefield aggressively.

Are there any AoO-centric builds this would work well with? Teamwork hunter comes to mind with paired opportunists, any other ideas?

f5 f5 f5 f5

1. Weapon Focus (Spiked Gauntlet) [retrain into Multi Shot at level 8], Shield Gauntlet Style
2. Lethal Grace talent
3. Shielded Gauntlet Attack
4. Fist of the Avenger talent
5. Shielded Gauntlet Master
6. Point blank shot
7. Rapid Shot
8. Signature Weapon (Spiked Gauntlet)
9. Deadly Aim

As an aside, this build works really well for making a green arrow/hawkeye switch hitter. This guy can brawl or take shots at range, good versatility for a martial character.

The very helpful "Improving your class with items" is a good place to start for class specific equipment after the big 6 are dealt with, or in some cases before.

Find your special hat here!

Very, very keen. Hellknight's are my favorite of all the Pathfinder IP.

I have found the spirit dancer to be very flexible, and with spirit focus and the new spirit bonus improving medium armour from armour master handbook, you can get the spirit bonuses very high up there.

I have a halfling medium, weapon finesse and the champion spirit give me plenty to attack and damage, and the halfling fcb increases damage as well.

With the spirit dancer, ic an prebuff at the start of the day with some long duration buffs, extended through rod of lesser extend, then armor up and roll out with the champion for substantial accuracy, damage and fort save improvements. the class has a good will save base, which is great, and the dex based build makes up for the reflex save.

Then in skills, i can pop a round as the archmage or thief for knowledge (i flavor it as "asking the spirits"). Oh, and if i want to play more support, using the level 2 haste with the archmage from level 7 is great.

Overall, i think the spirit dancer is the strongest style of medium, but it can be heinously complex to run, as you have to make all decisions for all 6 spirits at the start of the day. Great fun and great flavor, one of my favorite 3/4 BAB combat builds.

I've played in a group like this before. my response was to make a super friendly, happy go lucky gnome bard.

me: "Hey there friend, whats your name?"
group member 1: "i'm not telling you, I don't know you"
me: "great, nice to meet you! I'm blentlefarthern the third. now you've met me"
them: "I'm still not telling you"
me: "Cool! brooding, i love brooding. Once I brooded for a whole ten minutes. Then my grandma brought me cake, and I got over it. Anywho, I'm gonna call you broods, because of how broody you are."
Them: "don't call me that"
Me: "okay whats your name?"
them "No"
Me:"Okay, but that could get confusing. No comes up a lot in conversation. I think I'm gonna keep calling you broods for now".

Later that same day:

"Okay team, lets roll out! come on Broods, Grumpy, Angry, Stabby and Frank!"

They pretty quickly came up with something for me to call them after that.

*passes save* Its a great spell, who doesn't love 100% accurate information?

Also, watch out that the Smite AC bonus doesn't stack with a ring of protection.

@Ferious: I've got a few things to add too.

It looks like you are calculating your ac wrong for a start:

9 (Full plate) + 2 (Dex, requires mwk full plate) + 1 Amulet of nat arm + 1 ioun stone = 23

+3 for smite = 26

Combined with lay on hands, this would mean you are overall doing fine for AC, especially considering the biggest baddest guy is the guy who gets smitten.

My Paladin (who is approaching retirement) has AC23 at level 11, makes up for it with lay on hands, and smite bumps it up when it matters.

Second: Attack bonus -

Some quick fixes:

Belt of mighty strength (4k)
Furious Focus (That first smite hit hits hardest)
Pale Green Cracked Prism Ioun Stone (4k)

All things my paladin has, and this helps him get through.

Finally, saves:

cloak of resistance for 1k
upgrade it again for 3k
Headband of charisma for 4k.

If you pick all this up by level 7, you should be on track for greens across the board (except reflex saves, but I consider that the least relevant save).

As you pointed out, the benefits of a reach build are battlefield control and the ability to attack multiple enemies in a turn, so even if it is hard to directly calculate the benefit, don't discount it entirely.

A point on paladins: they are one of the few full martial classes with no bonus feats. That hurts the most at lower levels, when you are trying to get everything working together. You look like you have the core of the build up and running now, so focus on pulling up the central areas (attack, AC, saves) and you should be right.

My own paladin had a starting strength of 14, and would never have been anything but orange for most of his career offensively, but smite can do magical things. The combination of level to damage, doubled to the really big bads, and ignoring all DR, and increasing AC by Charisma, means that a smiting paladin can fight a demon, devil or undead monstrosity that would give any other optimized character a run for their money.

I’m tired of "mechanical failings = flaws = good role playing"

Let’s clarify what this means, because it has come up several times. This guide is not recommending that every character is built on the same cookie cutter template. It is not saying that every character has to buy the same items, use the same feats. It is not saying that everyone wants to and should play superman.

It is, very simply, defining some reasonable benchmarks for what good, average, great and poor performance might look like in certain areas. Not all areas. It doesn't tell you what spells a 19th level wizard should have. It doesn't tell you how you should spend your eidolon's evolution points. It provides some basic guidelines that you can take away and compare your character with to determine if you can do the thing you want to do.

Let's say you've made a barbarian/cleric multiclass character. She has a variety of options at her disposal, can rage when she doesn't want to cast, and cast when she doesn't want to fight. You've got a great back story drawn up, an interesting mix of traits, feats and domains to make an enjoyable character. You then grab the character sheet and compare the numbers with this guide. what does it say?

Maybe it says everything is green. Great, you have built a very powerful character. Maybe it highlights that your AC is quite low. Now, you consider that you have healing spells, some DR and the option of casting other defensive buffs, and decide that you don't mind too much. You say "that's fine", and move on. Maybe it says that you have a very low total to attack rolls. This is probably of more concern. Maybe, despite all the cool stuff your character can do, the hard maths underpinning the game says that, when you do try and wade into combat, you aren't really likely to hit anything. "Hmm" you say. You designed this character to be pretty good in combat. You thought that what you had on paper was pretty good, but when you look at the AC of creatures you're likely to be up against, it doesn't look like you are going to hit very often. You frown. You designed this character to do a thing, but it can't do it very well. Luckily, you found this out before you played this character, so you are spared the consequences of running head first into a melee with 3 lizard men barbarians, missing all your attacks, and then getting pummeled to death because, while your low AC was not terrible, it was somewhat dependent on some things in the room being dead before that could attack you.

So what do you do? Do you say "I like flawed characters. It is okay that she can't do one of the core things i want her to be able to do well, I will enjoy role playing her as someone who talks the big fight, but actually can't deliver". Maybe. If so, fine. But maybe you instead say "Actually, I would quite like this character to be able to contribute to melee combat. I like the idea of her being a big scary fighter. I will adjust the mechanics I have made to make sure they match the flavor i have in mind". You look at what number you have, what number you want to hit, and adjust the mechanics to match.

If anyone has ever sat down at the table with a new character, only to find the cool stuff you had conceptualized didn't eventuate in play because you had underestimated or overestimated key mechanical considerations, you know exactly what this feels like. It sucks to bring the awesome monkey grip over sized two weapon fighting double polearm wielding fighter, only to find out that the sheer number of attack penalties means you might as well be wielding wet noodles. Similarly, it sucks to design an amazing backstory of the master assassin, who has left entire kingdoms reeling with a well placed knife in the dark, who can make men wet themselves with a glance, only to find that your stealth score is not high enough to sneak past a bored town guard, you can't get sneak attack to save your life, and your intimidate bonus can't scare toddler.

In summary: people want to be able to do stuff they want to be able to do. This guide every simply sets out some basic levels you should aim towards if being good at that thing is a thing you want to be.

/end rant

That would be a good way to compare dissimilar methods of protection (HP, miss chance, AC etc).

If mapped to a graph, it could also show the EHP value of the next point of AC, and how much EHP 1 more hit point is worth. Would help to determine if toughness is better value than dodge for a given character.

Love it. Clear and simple, provides exactly what is needed for basic character benchmarking.

Gotta say, as a PFS player, it sounds like if you sat down at a table with me, I would be buying you a round of beers afterwards. The debuff remover role acts as a massive force multiplier that makes the whole party not implode when something goes slightly wrong.

I remember back in the days of 3.5, the raging leaping power attacking Barbarian build that could 1 shot anything as long as they could rage, charge, jump and hit. If any of these conditions weren't met, the entire build sort of fell apart. So many characters I play with fail to plan for common disruptive tactics. Confusion, as you mentioned. Melee characters with no way to reach something more than 5 feet in front of their face. Characters with terrible saves getting dazed, nauseated, dominated, entangled or blinded.

I can always rely on sitting down with at least one great big beat stick of a martial character, and I find with minimal effort, by keeping him on his feet and pointed at the enemy, I contribute more than another offensive character could.

I would be super keen to have you expand on the types of things your characters do to support the party.

Hi all,

Just saw that the weird words ability of the sound striker archetype for bards had an update, making it A) clearer, and B) less cheesy.

Link

This seems like it could combine well with the Duettist bard, to have yourself and your familiar spitting sonic scorching rays all day. Well, until you chew through your Bardic music uses anyway.

Was thinking half elf (for the favored class bonus) and probably picking up lingering song and a couple of extra musics, as the cost can get quite high.

Does this work as I think it does, and is there anything else that can be added to increase the damage?

Initiative is super important for making sure you get in position to make AoO's before the battle lines are set. It is often the case that the first round of combat involves positioning, and after that it tends to end up a slug fest as people full attack each other to the ground. Being able to set up the kill zone around your party to discourage/punish people moving in is great but only if you can do it early.

Therefore Improved initiative and extra traits to grab reactionary are some solid options for buffing your initiative up.

Some other avenues to pursue for negative emotions:

Madness (insanity): add some sort of confusion effect, maybe a bonus that constantly changes. Get a bit of wild magic going.

Isolation (monomania, loneliness): Bonus when working with friends, maybe get some bonus teamwork feats. Penalties or lose bonuses when alone.

Flagellant (self loathing, suicidal): potential for some reverse life link, paying the spirits hit points to heal the occultist, like the eidelon power. Maybe a bonus teamwork feat along the lines of “in harms way” or “broken wing gambit”. Potential also for reflecting damage taken onto attackers, or causing weapons to strike back at their attackers.

If you look beyond emotions and get into general stuff (quality technical term there):

Starving (hungry, impoverished, the hungry dead): the spirit died of famine or starvation. Maybe it bestows fatigued on others, or causes non-lethal damage with a touch. Possibly upgrading to exhaustion. Potentially also bestows sickened/nauseated. A general Debuffer.

Diseased: The spirit rose from the body of someone who was killed by plague or disease. Might bestow Disease or poison, maybe just penalizing ability scores. Release a cloud of noxious gas.

Other ideas that come to mind: Pride (dominating, egotistical, Ruling), Addicted, Forgotten, Betrayed, sadistic.

1) each of the blasts presented already has a way to overcome resistance by using slashing/bludgeoning/piercing damage instead. Except for fire.

2) Air should, flavor wise, be the best at flight. Flying is kinda and air thing.

3) this class inst trying to compete with the blaster wizard. A more apt comparison would be an archer ranger. Solid damage every round, infinite uses. If the elemental blast can compete with a fireball, there is a balance issue.

A character with 7 intelligence might just be a country bumpkin level, rather than intellectual disability. They won't know much of anything, are constantly surprised by things others take for granted, and don't have much patience for fancy book learnin's. In 3,5 they gave brief examples (one or two words) for each level of ability. Might be helpful here.

Also, thinking about it more, I can see how you could, emphasis could, have a character who doesn't at first glance seem to reflect their ability scores in appearance, in some regards.

For example, let's say you have a barbarian with con of 8. He looks hail and healthy, and as long as no pressure is put on him, seems just like any of his con 14 brothers. However, he confides in you later that he actually has a wasting curse placed upon him by his bitter half sister. He shows you, hidden under his tunic, a vicious scar, inflamed and angry despite clearly being years old. This scar is the physical manifestation if the curse designed to kill him, but that he fought off as a young man. His body is in constant battle with the curse, and so he has a weaker overall constitution to reflect this.

If a player showed me this, I would be a okay with him looking hale and hearty, rather than sickly or emancipated or some such.

However, when it came time to make a fortitude save against exhaustion for tracking across the desert all day, and if he failed, I would not allow him to maintain the facade. He would be sweating and panting with everyone else who failed.

Basically what it comes down to is if there is logic, reason and or effort put in to justifying some attribute of the character, I am would be of the general opinion that it is okay. If the dwarves barbarian dumps charisma to 5 and then says he is the handsomest warrior in all the lands, just because, then I have a problem.

I think a large problem here is the confusion between skills ranks and abilities. One is natural gifts the other is training and expertise.

So the strength 8 wizard with ten ranks in climb can totally climb better than the twenty strength barbarian with no ranks. Mechanically they are clear cut different.

However, from a role play aspect (freak out here, this is not specifically stated in the rules, but is instead imagined, I know right, weird) the barbarian climbs (probably) by wrenching himself up the cliff, using his brute force to heave his weight up. Meanwhile, the low strength wizard knows this approach won't work for him. He can barely do a chin up, and definitely can't pull himself up a mountain face. Instead, he evaluates handholds, looks for natural outcrops and sources of leverage. If he's using a rope, maybe he uses a leg lock, arm lock pattern (like you were taught in gym class). He avoids crumbly rocks and shaky looking handholds by drawing on years of experience and training.

Long story short, mechanically, there is no difference between a character with a plus three ability modifier performing a task untrained, and a character with a negative 1 ability mod performing it trained (class skill bonus included). Mechanically identical. Role play wise (which is kinda the major source of contention in this thread) they are completely different.

I must admit I am somewhat confused by the idea that a character can be designed, fluff wise entirely independently from their stats.

The example came up earlier of a Str 7 wizard describing themselves as muscular. I can not, no matter how hard I try, picture a scenario in which this makes any sense. Maybe he might be wearing bulky clothing to look muscular, or stand near halflings a lot, but it is not reasonable, in my mind to role play a stat as higher than the mechanical benefits allow.

On the other hand, I would be totally okay with a character downplaying their stats. If a player wanted a character who had strength 18, but was skinny as a rake and less than six foot, I would be okay with that. More so than the first example at least.

The same works for intelligence. I would have a problem with a player constantly using large words and engaging in intellectual debates with archmages, but would be fine with a high int character slumming it with the Orc drinking party.

As for charisma- I have seen arguments for pretty characters with low charisma. Maybe your fighter is quite handsome, but has some sort of debilitating speech impediment. Maybe they have inexpert mastery of the language, and often say the wrong thing. Whatever the reason, I would expect your mechanical choice of a low charisma to be backed up by in game flavour. Not every low intelligence has to be mentally retarded. Maybe the asimar paldin is unused to the logic of the material plane, and has to spend more cognitive power figuring out which way is up than most. Maybe your low will save character is not simply easily distracted, but is so self possessed as to have a hard time focusing on things other than themself.

Anyway, rant and bad spelling (damn you spell check) aside, there is no real mechanical impetus to reflect stats mechanically beyond the ascribed bonuses and penalties listed. So maybe RAW you can have a muscle bound Herculean heroe of the ages with Str and cha of 7. But I feel at that point the spirit of the rules is seeking a suit of armour to animate so that it can come to your house and hit you with a rubber chicken.

They're more guidelines......

The feat is from paizo........

Contributing!

One option to enable flanking without placing your own hide at risk is the use of minions. Whether that happens through scrolls of summon or a familiar. However, the animal archive introduced the feat chain to allow any character to aquifer an animal companion as a ranger (hd -3).

So the build

Human rogue 5
Eye for talent alternate race feature (+2 intelligence to companion from the get go)

Str 8
Dex 16+ 2 racial + 2 levels = 20
Con 14
Int 12
Wiz 13
Cha 11

Feats
Green adept (or some such
Finesse rogue- weapon finesse
Lvl 4- companion feat
Lvl 5- boon companion
Lvl 3- improved flanking teamwork feat (to be taken by animal as well)

Other feats as you like

Reliably set up flanking with animal companion to enable sneak attack, with additonal damage from animal companion. Add a wolf companion and take the combined tripping teamwork feat and combat reflexes to enable further attacks with sneak attack each round, triggering when the opponent is tripped by the wolf.

This is a (relatively) low cost way to enable sneak attack, get a solid combat companion to help your dpr, and potential aid in some skills (tracking for instance)

It should be said though that an animal domain inquisitor can do the same, but gets the teamwork feats for free, doesn't need to spend the feats on getting the companion in the first place. And gets spells. And bonuses to skills by default. And gets more bonuses to hit. And damage. Sigh, rogues need help.

Shaman bond, your post is one of the best things I have read on this website. Thank you indeed. I agree with most everything you said, especially the diviner dip. Acting in the surprise round and then going first with a high initiative is huge for a rogue, more so than people seem to think here.

Dirty trick is one if the best things a rogue can do. Blinding n opponent for just one round, even if they immediately remove it, can mean an entire free turn of movement for the party (no attacks of opportunity from blind people) , and can set up tactical plays more easily.

You mentioned the use of fog clouds/ smoke sticks. On opti builds, an oracle archer recently went up that used the waves revelation to see through fog, cast a fog cloud, and then acted from inside it with no penalties, all the while having total cover and concealment from others.

This one level dip seems like a great way for ranged rogues to guarantee sneak attack, and requires very few resources.

Just my 2c

So, tucked away in the bowels of the adventurers armoury, there is a magical rock, called a meditation crystal-

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/toys-games-puz zles#TOC-Meditation-Crystal

This item, as intended, allows a cleric to fuel a monk or paladins ability to lay on hands or use ki powers. If the cleric has a fairly low powered channel, or has dipped cleric for only a single level, such a tool is quite handy.

Normally a paladin could also utilise this item, spending two lay on hands to channel energy, and then using this channel to power the crystal. However, he would basically be spending 2 lay on hands to get one back.

The hospitaller paladin, however, gets to channel energy x times per day as a cleric of 3 levels lower.

This seems massively powerful, as it would basically give a hospitaller 3 plus charisma extra lay on hands per day for 100 gold. Additionally, if the paldin then dipped 1 level cleric and one level oracle, he would get 9+3x charisma extra lay on hands.

Is there something I'm missing here, or are hospitallers (with this item) just the best self healers around?

Also, is this legal for pfs?